CNN BREAKING NEWS
Ohio Standoff Ends with Suspect in Custody
Aired August 2, 2002 - 10:17 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Right now we want to update you on the situation in Ashland, Ohio, a standoff involving a former cop. We have been tracking this. This is following a 50-mile police chase, a stolen SUV. The car where the suspect is is to the right of your screen. It is a sheriff's SUV. There you go. We can highlight it there. Once again, that was stolen. We believe, according to our sources, that the suspect is a man named Cliff Harton, a guy who was a cop until about three weeks ago, and he lost his job. He also is a suspect -- apparently his wife's body has been found dead. According to our sources, he called his ex-wife, not the woman who was found dead, another former wife, and asked her to take care of his three small children, and told her what he had done, and then it has led to this chase that has ended, at this point, in a standoff on this Ohio highway.
Now, what has changed since we last checked in, the door, as you can see on the passenger's side to the SUV appears to be open, and there do appear to be more police vehicles that have drawn closer to this one car. We haven't got any indication of what kind of action is taking place. We did have a chance to talk to the Ohio State Highway Patrol just a little bit ago, and that gentleman told us that there wasn't any communication at that point between the man who we believe to be in the car, Cliff Harton, and the highway patrolmen and the sheriff's deputies outside the car.
Once again, this is a situation, it is a standoff on a highway, it is a rural stretch of Interstate 71, this is I-71. It is between Mansfield and Ashland, Ohio for those of you familiar with the area, and as we understand it, it is a 39-year-old man named Cliff Harton, and police believe this could be a domestic crime spree that has gone bad, beginning with a domestic dispute, apparently Cliff Harton, not only lost his job about three weeks ago, his wife served him with divorce papers. According to the county sheriff's department in Richland, Ohio. Then he -- according to the sheriff's department, they believe he shot his wife dead at that point. Called his ex-wife, told her what he had done to his current wife, and asked the ex-wife to take care of his three small children. Apparently he was on his way to his parents' home in Youngstown when another county, Morrow County Sheriff's deputies caught up with him at a gas station. There were some shots fired at that gas station, and that's when he stole one of their vehicles. So the vehicle that he is in right now, Cliff Harton, is actually in a sheriff's vehicle from Morrow County, and the sheriff's deputy we talked to earlier also told us that he is believed to -- this man is believed to be armed and to have at least two handguns with him.
As I said, there shots fired at that gas station where he was confronted by the Morrow County Sheriff's deputies. He stole the car, stole the SUV, takes off on the highway, and they have tried to stop him in a number of ways. They threw road spikes at the Richland- Ashland County line. That is about 50 miles from where he originally stole the SUV.
With us today is Clint Van Zandt, former FBI profiler who -- Clint, we actually brought you on to talk about another story which we will get to in a moment, but let's call in your expertise right here. Anything you can add to what you have been hear or learn about this story that is taking place in Ashland, Ohio?
CLINT VAN ZANDT, FORMER FBI PROFILER: Yes, well, I'm a former FBI hostage negotiator too, and I have had to negotiate law enforcement officers out of situations like this. This is a tough one. When you have someone who has already killed a significant other, when he has passed his children on. When he has already lost a job. This is the double, the triple-whammy type of situation that psychologically, the negotiators on the scene are really up against it. The challenge is, you have got a police officer, and he has had negotiations training. He knows what I'm going to say, so my hook...
KAGAN: He knows your tricks.
VAN ZANDT: Yes, he knows the tricks, but you have got a hook. And where I am the negotiator on scene, the hook is, your children are going to grow up without their mother, don't let them grow up without their father, and I would keep hammering away at that. Because otherwise, he is either going to kill himself or he is going to make the police kill him, in a suicide by cop, and that's what police are aware of, and they are desperately trying to stop right now.
KAGAN: Yes, but just to play devil's advocate. You know the guy is not dumb. He knows if he gives up what is going to happen to him. He is not exactly going to be around to raise his kids.
VAN ZANDT: No, but he is still -- I mean, I have done this, I have talked people out when they are going to jail for 30 years, and still said, your child will still have your influence. You will be able to talk to them, write to them, they have a father as a frame of reference. If you take your life, they lose that entire frame of reference. And as a person sits there, I mean, you know, few of us have been there, as you sit there making the decision, life, death, life, death, and then what reason do I have to live, about the only reason we can give him right now is his children.
KAGAN: Yes, and you know, given what we know, we think we know about this guy, I mean, here is a guy who is clearly down. He lost his job, his wife was about to divorce him, that ended violently and fatally, and he knows -- wait something is going on here.
He just ran from the car. Did you see that? Do you have a monitor?
VAN ZANDT: Yes.
KAGAN: Just ran from the car, and I think that was him. He ran from the car, and then ran into the woods over the barricade there.
VAN ZANDT: Well, now, the police would have had a perimeter on the other side of that in anticipation, so he wouldn't be able to go far. Should that have been him, that did this at this point, so he is not going anywhere. The police will still have him inside of a perimeter, but now the challenge is, either he points a gun at the police officer, or he points a gun at himself. The officers -- their choices are very limited right now.
KAGAN: Right. Especially if you look at the area he jumped into, very wooded and very dangerous for people who are running around with guns.
VAN ZANDT: Yes, but you know, he is a police officer, he knows he is not getting away. He knows you can't run away from the situation. You can't escape. That suggests to you the very challenged mental state that he is in right now. I mean, this is a man without a plan. He is just reacting, he is reacting violently, and probably wants to end this violently, and you know, the negotiators, the troopers will be trying very hard to talk him out of this, but you get a person like this, many times they just don't give you a choice.
KAGAN: Now we are watching some of the officers go over the railing. It seems like they are going -- if we could drop that graphic there. There we go. Clint, it seems to me that they are moving pretty slowly. I wonder if there was some kind of gunfire or something that they don't seem like they are moving that cautiously at this point.
VAN ZANDT: Well, you don't want to be going over the top too quickly too, if he is on the other side with a gun, and if you already know that you have officers who would be down there to deal with that situation. You don't want to jump over the top of the interstate and land right on top of him or land on top of another law enforcement officer. So, you know, hopefully they have have a contingent already worked out for this. You have got an A team up on top, you have got the B team down below. Hopefully the B team is going to deal with this now and get him in custody, one way or the other.
KAGAN: So it is your educated guess that -- we are watching it from the freeway side, from the highway side, and there are lots of cop cars and officers there, that you think there were an equal -- I don't know numbers, but there were also officers down there in that ravine, that that is just how you set up this kind of crime scene.
VAN ZANDT: Well, if I was there, knowing that car was right up against that wall where he had access, I would have had a SWAT team down below, officers down below, just to protect against that contingency, and I -- those are good law enforcement agencies out there, they would do the same thing. It is just -- you are on such the horns of a dilemma. You have got someone who has murdered, and yet he is a police officer, and yet he is not, because he was fired a couple of weeks ago. You know, it is terrible for everyone involved in this, and of course, he has killed his wife, and we know in domestic situations, the most critical time in a domestic situation is after you serve papers and after you go to court, when you are required to go to court, so something like this, I mean, this was a ticking bomb with -- he already lost his job, we know he probably still has guns. His wife serves divorce papers on him. This was fraught with danger and unfortunately, it has worked out just that way.
KAGAN: What can -- are you able to see the monitor, what is on our air right now, Clint?
VAN ZANDT: I do.
KAGAN: What can you read from what you can see how this scene is right now? There is a certain tension that I don't sense right now, how they are just kind of walking around.
VAN ZANDT: Yes, and it is either they have already dealt with him tactically, either they have him in custody or he is shot down, or else he has removed himself far enough from the scene that the officers up above are letting the ones down below deal. That's the challenge right now that you and I are both trying to pick up from this video, but I see what you -- you wouldn't see officers exposing themselves up above...
KAGAN: Right, that's my point.
VAN ZANDT: If in fact they thought he still presented a danger to them. So one has to assume he is either in custody, or he is wounded and down.
KAGAN: And then also the challenge of this wooded area. What does that add to it?
VAN ZANDT: Well it does, it does a lot. Again, you would have a perimeter put -- like a 360 degree perimeter around this area. You have four-wheel drive vehicles. You might even have dogs that are already on scene that could help you do a search in an area like this. Again, these are contingencies in law enforcement. You have got a backup plan, and a second backup plan, and a third backup plan. And if this situation has been going on a little bit more than an hour, hour and a half, they are trying to bring all their resources in to deal with this. They bring in negotiators, SWAT teams, these four- wheel drive vehicles we are talking about. They bring in helicopters to do a search just like we saw done in California yesterday to find the kidnapper, so all of these resources would come in very quickly. Part of the challenge is you have got multiple agencies involved. So you've got make sure everybody is on the same sheet of music, they are all listening on the same radio frequency, no one department or officer is taking an action that could put another officer's life in danger by the action he has taken. So there is tremendous amount of coordination. And then you've got this terribly unknown factor, this volatile former police officer, we're told who has already engaged in a gun battle with sheriff's deputies this morning. We're told he is armed with two handguns, that he has released his children, but he has called his first wife and said, take care of my children. As a negotiator, we call that a verbal will. In essence, I'm telling you what I want you to do because I know I won't be around to do it any more.
That's very frightening and it suggests the mind-set that he was in, that he is in this situation potentially not to have it resolved peacefully with him going to jail, but perhaps to die at this scene, and that's what law enforcement officers are working against. They want to save him, they want to save everybody in a situation like this, but we don't want to see someone else shot. He has already killed his wife. We don't want him to see -- see him to take the life of a police officer, who, in reality, is there simply trying to save him from himself.
KAGAN: Yes, and once again, the scene that we are looking at here in Ashland, Ohio, on interstate I-71, you are making the point that if the situation wasn't resolved, the we wouldn't see the officers walking around just leaving themselves exposed like that. I want to show our viewers a little bit of the tape that just happened just moments ago, that happened live as we were talking to you. It was -- as they have been trying to negotiate with the man. Watch the vehicle, and you see him jump out of the vehicle, go over the barrier there, and then run into the woods. Kind of incredible that he could do that and move that fast with all those officers standing by -- Clint.
VAN ZANDT: Well, you know, you are taken off guard sometimes. There is a sense that OK, we've got the situation stabilized, we are trying to talk to him, we are trying to get a discussion going. He hasn't left the vehicle in an hour, hour and half, and you see all of the cars are pretty much lined up on one side and not the other. They have a strong perimeter on one side and across the front. That other side, it looks like they weren't able to get cars to because they thought it might expose them to gunfire. But again, you would like to believe there were officers down in the woods finishing up that 360- degree perimeter.
Hopefully, they have got him in handcuffs down there, but could very easily be something else.
KAGAN: Yes, and as you were pointing out that you believe that there were officers already down there
And as we continue to watch these live pictures, you were making the point about somebody like already this being a ticking time bomb. You have someone who is familiar with law enforcement situation, having been a cop, lost his job. His wife says she wants to divorce him. Do you ever go through situations like this, Clinton, and say what could have been done to avoid something thing like this?
VAN ZANDT: Well, I've had a situation one time where I had a barricaded FBI agent who said he would shoot us. You're sitting there, and it's so incredulous. You're saying another FBI wants to shoot me, does that make sense.
KAGAN: Let me interrupt you for just a second while we're looking at this live picture. Does that look like that's the yellow crime scene tape that they're kind of putting around the situation right there?
VAN ZANDT: My monitor's pretty small.
KAGAN: Pretty small, you can't tell.
VAN ZANDT: If, in fact, that's what you're seeing, the situation's over with. If they're putting crime scene tape up...
KAGAN: Either he shot himself or they shot him, you think?
VAN ZANDT: That's what putting the crime scene tape up would suggest. Otherwise, they'd have him in handcuffs and be bringing him back. You know, we still may see that. We don't know what took place down in the woods right now. You know, I don't want to start being prophet of doom here, but having seen dozens and dozens of these situations play out, as you were suggesting earlier, he's lost his job, his wife has divorced him, he, you know -- he's standing there facing life and saying what else do I have, and in this particular case he made very bad mistakes, very bad decisions.
And he's just -- he's running. He's doing things. He's doing things that three weeks ago he would have arrested someone else for doing, and now he's out there committing the same acts himself.
Now, this is a man who, you know, psychologically, he's out of control right now. He's just given up. His feeling of hopelessness and helplessness are so great, and yet his anger is so focused on his former wife, evidently he took it out on her, because she was going to divorce him, and it's just thank God the children survived this.
KAGAN: Let me ask you what we're looking at, because I know our viewers have a lot of questions about the live pictures. And it looks like an ambulance, but again, not exactly a flurry of activity to get somebody in there real quickly.
VAN ZANDT: No. Well, we see an emergency vehicle and we see a lot of people out in the open right now, which again, suggest to you and I that this situation one way or the other has been concluded. If, in fact, we see an ambulance, it would suggest to me he's either taken his own life or he's confronted officers in a suicide-by-cop situation, where he shot at them not necessarily to injure them, but to force them to return fire.
KAGAN: What is that about? What is that? Who wants that to happen?
VAN ZANDT: I had it happen to me in early 80s with a bank robber. Long story short, this guy killed a bank teller to make us kill him. What happens is you have an individual who out of depression, hopelessness, helplessness, whatever the spirit is, has made a decision I don't want to live, I don't want to go to jail, I don't want the authorities to have their hands on me. And he may not be able to take his own life with his own hand, in essence, because of religious belief or personal belief; he may not be able to put the gun to his own head, so he goes to next logical people with guns, police officers, knowing they're very efficient with those type of weapons, and he'll place an officer where he or she fears for their own life or fears for the life of someone else.
KAGAN: And they have no choice.
VAN ZANDT: They have no choice.
I had it happen to me. I talked to dozens of police officers live and on the phone. They've talked to me, you know, they've cried with me and said, why did that so and so, why did he make me kill him, why did he make me kill him? I can explain why. But for the rest of your life as a police officer, you have to know that this person used you as his executioner, and that's a terrible feeling should that be this case.
KAGAN: No one will know better the situation that a cop would be in, in that situation than a former cop, like this guy right here. But let me follow up on something, you've actually been in that situation where you had to pug the trigger.
VAN ZANDT: I've been in the situation where I was the negotiator, and I was trying to talk the individual out of the bank, and he said, either I come to front door of bank by 3:00 or he would start killing people. We continued trying to negotiate. At 3:00, he stood a teller in front of door with shotgun, blew her through the door, cut her in half, and then walked across the bank and stood in front of the window, where he knew the snipper was in the church across the street. The sniper fired and killed him. And we found diary, and he had written in his diary 13 months earlier he would make us do that to him.
KAGAN: Clint, I don't mean to cut you off here, but we do have Sergeant Rick Zwayer, from the Ohio State Highway Patrol coming back on the phone with us to give us the latest on the situation.
Sergeant, has the situation been resolved?
SGT. RICK ZWAYER, OHIO HIGHWAY PATROL: We do have the suspect in custody, and we don't know the extent of his injuries right now, but the barricade situation has been resolved.
KAGAN: With all due respect, sergeant, it doesn't appear anyone is moving too quickly on the scene. We're able to watch a live picture.
ZWAYER: I am watching a live feed as well, yes.
KAGAN: Can we infer from that, or you're not able to comment on whether the suspect is dead?
ZWAYER: I can't confirm whether or not the suspect is deceased at this time or not.
KAGAN: OK, but the situation has been resolved, he is in custody.
ZWAYER: That is correct.
KAGAN: Sergeant Rick Zwayer, from the Ohio State Highway Patrol, thank you for that.
Clint, let's bring you back in.
I understand as a sergeant, being in the position where he can't say exactly what's going on. But once again, from watching the situation from where we are, there doesn't seem to be sense of urgency, the other officers just sitting around in a vulnerable position if somebody was still -- if there was a situation. It does not appear that -- that the situation is trying to get him to medical help so quickly.
VAN ZANDT: Yes, let's say, if he shot himself or if an exchange of gunfire with police officers he was hit, of course the first thing they would do once he was down would be take his weapons away and handcuff him, so the rest of the officers on scene would know that no longer presented a physical challenge to them.
Now the issue is, for the sergeant, you just add on, in many states, no one can say that an individual is wounded or deceased other than a medical doctor or the medical examiner. So you know, that's an official procedure that still has to take place, or best case scenario is that he's wounded and in custody, but in a worst case, even though he may be deceased, he didn't take the life another police officer. He's already killed it wife. We're fortunate we didn't lose anyone else, and the police appeared to have handled this, as usual, in a very good situation.
KAGAN: And you were mentioning people who find themselves in the situation there, their desperate feeling and they have nothing to live for. But as you were saying, the best resolution is, if you can get to them before they've hurt somebody else. And in this situation, it doesn't appear, at least we, at this point, don't have indication he's hurt another police officer. However, if there is a situation with his wife, who officials believe he did kill before this all began.
VAN ZANDT: Yes. And that's of course the tragedy of this, we have young children growing who are going to grow up at least without a mother, and we don't know about the situation of father right now. It's -- you know, this has spiraled between a domestic situation and, obviously, something related to his work, but it so speaks of the challenge -- you know, so many police officers are in situations they're stressed, they;re psychologically challenged, and yet they're supposed to be supermen and women, they're not supposed to be showing that. And we have a tremendous amount of domestic problem in the wives of law enforcement, husbands of law enforcement officers, where we see things like this. We see it in the military. We see it in law enforcement, and yet these are all people who are not supposed to crack. They're not supposed to raise their hand and say I need help.
And you know, we need these men and women to realize that you -- we all reach a breaking point. We all need to raise our hand up and say, I need help, I need counseling, I need somebody to work with me, and that shouldn't be a way to say, OK, you can no longer be a policemen, you no longer can be in the military, because we can't trust you, you're a weakling. It's a sign of strength to realize when you are reaching a breaking point, not a sign of weakness. KAGAN: Just to bring our viewers up to date on what we're watching right now. This is a live picture, courtesy of our affiliate WOIO. This is the ambulance that pulled up to the scene where the standoff was taking place on I-71, in Ashland, Ohio. We saw a stretcher go out, but I don't remember seeing any body being loaded, and it being -- I guess it was. We just didn't see that picture. You just doesn't see that picture, as we lose that picture going in and out.
As it drives away, as we were talking with Clint Van Zandt, former hostage negotiator and also FBI profiler, at this point, we're at a situation where we just need to speculate on certain of the pictures that we're able to see, but I can, for our viewers who are just joining us, bring up to date on what we do know, as far as this thing has unfolded. And we believe it involves a man name Cliff Harton, a 39-year-old man, who lost about three weeks ago lost his job with the Columbus Police Department, and then yesterday, his wife was serving him divorce papers.
Police or sheriffs deputies in Richmond County believe that he shot and killed that wife on Thursday evening, and then took off, and it was then earlier today when he met up with other sheriff's deputies that from the Morrow County Sheriff's Department. They caught up with him at a gas station in Youngstown. He apparently was on the way to his parents' home, and then a high-speed chase or some kind of chase ensued. It ended there on I-71. And it was a standoff for a couple of hours before we saw live here on CNN as the man, who we believe to be Cliff Harton, get out of the stolen sheriff's SUV and then run into the woods. And then, whatever it is that happened there -- there you see the picture again -- whatever happened after that, Clint, appeared to have happened very quickly.
VAN ZANDT: Very quickly. And again, that's probably he either ran into the woods and took own life or immediately was confronted by law enforcement officers. Of course they would be yelling, Drop the gun, drop the gun, please. If he didn't give them a choice, they would have to do what they have to do to protect their own life. You know, it's a terrible thing. No one in law enforcement wants to take a human and life ever. And when you have to take one in this situation, number one, you know someone could have forced you to have done it. And number two, to have it be a police officer, this is -- it's the worst of the worst for law enforcement to have to deal with, because they realize the stress, they realize the challenges that another police officer is under. But they also realize this man is murderer. He killed his wife.
KAGAN: They understand the sympathetic part of it in that this is their brother in law enforcement. But as you are explaining, how you have to adjust your job, or would have to adjust your job as a hostage negotiator, knowing what you know that this man knows, how would a SWAT team member have to adjust his decision, knowing what he knows that a police officer knows?
VAN ZANDT: I've talked to SWAT teams about that when we have been on the scene, of law enforcement officers being in a barricade. And we all have to get on the same sheet of music in saying if he presents a threat like any other felon with a gun, we will have to deal with him. And you know, you look at each other and you realize you're saying, We are going to have to take the life of another law enforcement officer. And it sends a chill through you, but, I mean, you can't pack up and go home and say no, we're not going to do this one, this is too tough, we're not going to do it.
You have to do it. You have to have the mind set, and that's the challenge that we have law enforcement officers to do every day. We ask them to go into situations that for you and I are nightmares.
KAGAN: Clint, let me just jump in here. Let me just jump in here. And let's talk about these pictures that we're seeing right now. So this is the ambulance that was at the scene. It's come to a stop on this off-ramp. And then there's another ambulance. And it will be interesting to see what they plan on doing from here. These two other either sheriff's deputies or highway patrolmen have gotten out of their car too. They've opened up the back of the ambulance. If this is someone who's still alive and needs medical help, that's rather interesting they would come to stop like that. And if not, it's still interesting exactly what's going on.
VAN ZANDT: I guess it would suggest one of a couple of things. One, either they had other life support assistance in that second ambulance and they're transferring people or equipment or trying to help whoever's shot and down at this point. Or number two, whoever it is is deceased and they're just making a decision now how to continue to transport.
KAGAN: Let me just share this information I was handed here from "Associated Press" from people who are on the scene of what we saw happen live here when the man got out of the stolen SUV and ran into the woods. "Associated Press" reporting that shots indeed were fired. The man was spotted jumping out of the SUV where he was holed up and went over the guardrail. And then a barrage of gunfire was heard shortly afterward.
VAN ZANDT: Well, that would suggest that, as you and I have been speculating, that there were in fact law enforcement officers on the other side.
KAGAN: This is for our viewers who didn't see it. You are going to see it happen again where he will jump out of the car.
VAN ZANDT: There he goes over the top.
And if he in fact was trying to bring out own demise, he would go out just like we're watching, go over the top, and then he would immediately be confronted by officers yelling, Drop the gun, drop the gun, please drop the gun. And when he raises the weapon at the officers to fire a shot, they have no choice, they have to take him out.
KAGAN: This sad note too, that the official who was reporting on that also saying the body found inside of Cliff Harton's home is indeed that of wife, Elizabeth Harton, the woman who was serving him with divorce papers. VAN ZANDT: So we go back. We have here one more example in the United States of a domestic tragedy that now has left children without parents. It's sad, it's sad that we're not responding quicker as a society, you know, to meet the needs. And it's sad that people who are psychologically challenged aren't raising their hands and saying, Please, I need help before I do something terrible. This is end result of a situation that goes without assistance and help.
KAGAN: It brings to mind -- and this is a totally separate story, but it brings to mind what we've been finding out about Fort Bragg...
VAN ZANDT: Same thing.
KAGAN: And Special Forces members returning from Afghanistan and the number of army wives that have been killed recently.
VAN ZANDT: Yes. These men have actually been in combat, these Special Forces types. But a police officer every day, he has to imagine himself every time he makes a traffic stop, it can be combat too. And those are the things you are thinking of all the time. You know, it's like so many jobs are 8:00 to 5:00 and you go up and you hang up your headset and that's it for the day. And a police officer is 24-7, and that's a real tough psychological toll on some people. We ask a lot of police officers, schoolteachers, nurses, doctors, and you know, I wish we paid all these people the same we paid professional sports athletes, you know, because thee people put it on the line for us every day.
KAGAN: Every day.
Well, it appears that they've closed up the door. Well, maybe not.
VAN ZANDT: One thing is obviously apparent. They're not in a hurry to rush to a hospital. In that -- we have to take some suggestion from that.
KAGAN: When we hear that there was a barrage of gunfire, knowing what we know there that happened at the scene and we're not seeing this ambulance that we believe is holding up Cliff Harton to be in...
VAN ZANDT: Yes. And we don't see a police escort, we don't see traffic being stopped to help it get to the hospital faster. No...
KAGAN: You're pretty much reading into how you think it's going.
VAN ZANDT: Yes. I'm sad for it. I'm sad for everybody involved in this. Even the officers who had to do this because now there's another level of counseling. We are going to have to work with these men and women who had to fire these fatal shots and help them through. You know, I'm not...
KAGAN: If indeed that happened. I mean, it's possible he took his own life (UNINTELLIGIBLE) VAN ZANDT: Yes, yes, yes, yes. You know -- yes. I'm not painting this picture of a bunch of weak brothers and sisters out there. That's not the case. But this is just tough for anybody to have to go through. Here, thanks to television, we watch a tragedy, one more tragedy, unfold live in front of us.
KAGAN: That we did. We watched a different one unfold yesterday, the situation in Lancaster, California.
VAN ZANDT: Wasn't that great? Absolutely great.
KAGAN: Had a much different outcome, the two girls home, a brutal 12 hours they had to go through there. That's why we invited you in the first place to come and visit with us.
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