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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
High School Shooting; Reassessing Torture: Does it Work?; Election 2005 Results; French Government Gives Local Officials Curfew Power; The Relationship Between Men and Women: Are Men Necessary?; Kinsey Report Updated
Aired November 8, 2005 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: These are the two survivors of this shooting. A third -- Assistant Principal Ken Bruce -- was killed, as a student -- a 15-year old student -- open fired with a handgun near the school offices. That happened a little after 2:00 o'clock today.
And as you might be able to see, behind me with all the flashing blue lights, the investigation still underway. We have also learned that at this hour investigators have questioned others as to where this young man was able to get a gun and how he was able to get it into the school, questioning others to find out if others might have been somehow connected to this case. But at this point, most of the investigation is going on inside the building, collecting every possible piece of evidence that they can.
The suspect is in custody at a juvenile detention facility. He was taken there after being treated for what looked like a gunshot wound to his hand.
Investigators are being very careful about how they say this all came about. They are not willing at this point to put any sort of a A, B and C sequence together. There are some people who knew this young man, who say that he was trouble, but authorities will not confirm what was going through his mind or what was happening as this shooting occurred -- Anderson.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: David, we spoke in the last hour to a young man who knows this young man who is now in custody, who said that he had been suspended previously for a year for stabbing an assistant principal with a pen or a pencil. Do you know anything more about that?
MATTINGLY: Authorities will not talk about that tonight. We're hoping that they will shed more light on that tomorrow. But we are hearing that story from multiple students.
MATTINGLY (voice-over): We're not sure if it's all part of the rumors that go around after these type of incidents do occur, but there seems to be some certain credibility in the widespread belief that this student did have problems the year prior and had problems as he came back to this high school. COOPER (voice-over): And David, we're looking at pictures now of the suspect being put into a police car. I don't know if you've seen the pictures. Is that blood on his shirt?
MATTINGLY: That is blood on his shirt. Again, he was treated for what looked like a gunshot wound to his hand, suggesting that he might have been wounded himself during whatever struggle that occurred after these shootings. Authorities tell us that he had been subdued by the time the first responders arrived here, so that he was subdued by staff here at the school.
After all that happened, the school was in lockdown. The students were locked in their classes for about two hours. They were released to some very anxious parents here outside the school grounds. The school is going to be closed for the rest of the week, Anderson. There will be counseling here going on for anyone who needs it, and that goes for not just the students, but the staff here as well.
COOPER: All right, David. Thanks for reporting. As David said, it is an active investigation. A crime scene, as you can see, very much still an active crime scene.
If we had to pick a single thing to underscore how completely life has changed in this country since 9/11, it might be the fact that there are now arguments, serious ones. Not only against, but also for torture. There never was a debate about this subject before, now there certainly is. CNN's Tom Foreman has been investigating.
TOM FOREMAN (voice-over): If you could save the life of a soldier, rescue the hostage children; stop the next terrorist bomb by torturing a prisoner for information, would you do it?
JAMES "SPIDER" MARKS, MAJOR GENERAL, U.S. ARMY (RET.): I'd stick a knife in somebody's thigh in a heartbeat.
FOREMAN (on camera): Retired General "Spider" Marks, a CNN consultant, worked for U.S. Army Intelligence, teaching interrogation
MARKS: The kinds of enemies we're fighting have no sense of right or wrong. They will go to any depths to achieve their ends.
FOREMAN: Do we have to go with them?
MARKS: We don't need to go with them. We need to preclude them from going there. And that might include some use of torture in order to prevent it.
FOREMAN (voice-over): Polls have shown that more than 60 percent of Americans think torture can sometimes be justified. But here is the catch. Experts, including General Marks, are convinced with the vast majority of prisoners, it just doesn't work.
MARK JACOBSEN, FORMER OFFICIAL, DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE: It does not give you credible, accurate, timely and actionable intelligence.
FOREMAN: Mark Jacobsen, a former Defense Department official, outlines the troubles. You need to know a prisoner has critical information. The prisoner must be susceptible to torture. And, oh by the way,
JACOBSEN: When people are tortured, when people endure physical pain, they're going to seek to stop that as quickly as possible.
(voice-over): If I torture you, you're going to tell me exactly what I expect to hear.
FOREMAN: The White House, under fire over reports of secret CIA prisons overseas, says torture is not allowed. But,
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT MCCLELLAN, PRESS SECRETARY, WHITE HOUSE: We are going to do what is necessary to protect the American people. We are also going to do so in a way that adheres to our laws and to our values. We have made that very clear.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOREMAN: The definition of torture is: Infliction of severe physical as a means of punishment or coercion. Legal authorities around the world are arguing over what that means. Some insist the abuses at that Iraqi prison easily qualify, along with sleep deprivation, humiliation, extreme fear. Others say those things don't even come close.
The global jury is still out. And even experts are pondering a paradox.
(on camera): So in your experience and in your view, torture as a policy should be against the law?
FOREMAN: And yet, we might still have to use it.
FOREMAN (voice-over): And wondering which truth about torture will stand in a dangerous world. Tom Foreman, CNN, Washington.
COOPER: What's interesting, President Bush has said categorically, we don't torture. He also says we'll do whatever is necessary. So what exactly does that mean?
We asked a couple of law professors earlier this evening to discuss the issue with us. John Yoo of University of California, Berkeley, who served in the Justice Department from 2001 to 2003, is also a visiting scholar at the American Enterprise Institute. Also joining us, Alan Dershowitz, professor of law at Harvard, the author of a great many books, including, "The Case for Peace, How the Arab Israeli Conflict can be Resolved." Also involved in discussion was Bill Goodman of the Center for Constitutional Rights. Here's some of the conversation:
COOPER: Professor Dershowitz, under what circumstances do you think torture is justified?
ALAN DERSHOWITZ, AUTHOR: Torture is never justified and I hope we never have to use it in the United States. But if we ever had a ticking bomb terrorist who could under torture reveal the location of a bomb that would destroy hundreds of thousands of people, I guarantee you we would use it. That's an empirical judgment, not a normative one. And if we would use it, then we have to use it only with accountability. And that means that the president of the United States or the vice-president or the secretary of Defense, or the chief justice has to specifically authorize precisely the kind of extreme measures that are permitted to be used. No extreme measures without accountability. That has to be the rule.
COOPER: Bill Goodman, you believe that's a slippery slope?
BILL GOODMAN, CENTER FOR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS: I think it's a very slippery slope. I think once you start to say, well under these circumstances, empirically, you're going to and you have to provide these kinds of measures if you do it, then you're basically agreeing that under circumstances it can happen, it should happen, and then it's going to happen under more than those exceptional circumstances. It's going to start becoming the regular, rather than the unusual.
COOPER: Professor Yoo, let me bring you in here. What do you think about Professor Dershowitz's argument, that torture under any circumstances is wrong and that he supports the McCain Amendment, but at the president's direction under extraordinary circumstances?
JOHN YOO, LAW PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA-BERKELEY: I agree with much of what Alan says. I do think torture is wrong. It's illegal. What the McCain Amendment does is just repeating the Geneva Convention standard that already applies in Iraq. What the problem with the McCain Amendment is that it prevents the CIA to use interrogation methods -- would not be torture, but would fall under this vaguer term, cruel and humane degrading treatment --
COOPER: But what is your definition of torture? I mean, I understand you were one of the lawyers in the Justice Department early on who helped craft documents outlining, you know, what some call the before 9/11 approach and after 9/11 approach. And the definition of torture that I understand from what I've read, that you were advocating was a very narrow one.
YOO: I think -- look, we can all have an argument where exactly that line is. And I think it means severe pain and suffering, either physical or mental, cannot be imposed. That would be torture -- DERSHOWITZ: See, I would have a broader definition of torture. I would define it very broadly, then prohibit it, but then if it is felt necessary to use any of these measures, short of torture, or bordering extreme psychological measures. If the president of the United States is prepared to put his credibility on the line and say the future of the nation is at stake. We must violate the law in this instance, like we would if we had to shoot down a civilian airliner, let the president take accountability. And that would broaden the definition of torture. It wouldn't have any of these escape valves that we now have and would place accountability squarely where it belongs -- not on the shoulders of Sergeant Englund or some other low- ranking --
GOODMAN: Right now you're just being an apologist for torture.
DERSHOWITZ: Oh come on, stop the -- stop throwing around words like that. I mean, that's just insulting to the intelligence of the audience, you know that?
GOODMAN: Let me -- let me please finish. Look, let me finish, let me talk and then you can answer. Okay? You know better than that.
COOPER: Just -- what's your point?
GOODMAN: My point is this. That torture is new in the American discourse in many ways. We have not seen the prevalence. We have not seen outcropping in torture. Notwithstanding all of the wars in which we've engaged, until this current administration, and to say --
DERSHOWITZ: Totally false.
GOODMAN: And to say --
DERSHOWITZ: Totally false --
GOODMAN: And to say --
DERSHOWITZ: Totally false. It was rampant in the second world war --
GOODMAN: And to say -- please --
COOPER: But isn't it true that there has always been torture?
GOODMAN: There always has, but not in the degree, not in the level --
DERSHOWITZ: Much worse, much worse --
GOODMAN: -- not in the amount that we have seen and the fact is that by saying that we are going to allow certain circumstances --
DERSHOWITZ: Much worse, much worse than the second world war.
GOODMAN: We will apologize for torture. DERSHOWITZ: Much worse in the Vietnam War, much worse in the Korean War.
GOODMAN: I can't talk with him interrupting me.
COOPER: Okay, you're saying it's been much worse --
DERSHOWITZ: Much worse.
COOPER: Professor Yoo, President Bush says the U.S. does not torture. Do you believe that's true?
YOO: Yes, I believe it's not true that if there is abuses like Abu Ghraib occurring, they're just illegal and ought to be punished.
COOPER: Mr. Dershowitz, does the U.S. torture?
DERSHOWITZ: Of course it does and it does with a wink and a nod from the president of the United States, from the secretary of Defense, from the vice-president. Just the message he gave yesterday. We don't approve torture, but we approve doing whatever is necessary to stop terrorism. And that sends a mixed message.
COOPER: Bill, let me tell you something that Senator Roberts has said about the McCain Amendment. He said that basically -- and I'm paraphrasing -- basically, the element of surprise, where the enemy does not know about what we're going to do to them is a very powerful tool and so you don't want to specify, you don't want to write out exactly what can and cannot be done.
GOODMAN: That is truly apologism for torture. That's saying that torture does work, can work. And it's never been proven to work.
COOPER: Bill Goodman, Professor Yoo, Professor Dershowitz, thanks very much.
YOO: Thank you.
COOPER: Still ahead on 360, they may be off-year elections, but they're being closely watched. The latest results and what they say about the future.
Also, the crisis unfolding in France, what the riots and the rage behind them have revealed.
And why Maureen Dowd thinks women of her generation were sold a bill of goods.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP):
MARUEEN DOWD: All the things we did that we thought would make us more fascinating, like high-powered careers, and we wanted that snappy Hepburn-Tracy dialogue -- but actually a lot of guys find that draining. (END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: We'll talk to her about that and a whole lot more. We'll be right back.
COOPER: Election returns are coming in from around the country. There are state and local races with nationally-known faces and issues, as well as a celebrity or two. With us tonight, CNN's John King and Jeff Greenfield.
Let's start with the breaking news -- and John King in D.C, what's the latest, John?
JOHN KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, more statements form the Democrats celebrating tonight, more events planned by the Democrats tomorrow. They believe they have the upper hand in these off-year elections. The two biggest races -- the races for the governorships of Virginia and New Jersey. Democrats winning in both of those states. We can show you here. CNN projecting that Tim Kaine, now the Lieutenant Governor, will be the next governor of Virginia, winning quite handedly 52 to 46 percent over Republican Jerry Kilgore. Also, in the state of New Jersey, John Corzine, the Democrat, with 54 percent of the vote right now, beating Doug Forrester as a Republican, just 43 percent -- 91 percent of the vote counted in New Jersey; 99 percent of the vote counted now in Virginia. Two Democratic victories in the races for governor.
Republican Michael Bloomberg will win reelection in New York. The Republicans will celebrate that -- that a source of frustration to Democrats. How much does this mean nationally? That race in New Jersey was much more personally nasty about property taxes perhaps, than about President Bush or any national issues. The Virginia race, about the death penalty, about other state issues as well -- traffic, number one among them. But the Democrats will certainly make the case that the Virginia race is proof the Republican base is demoralized. That will be studied, Anderson, as we look at these off-year elections and how much they play into next year.
Many state ballot questions, of some national import tonight -- an anti-gas tax initiative in Washington state. We won't get the results there until tomorrow. A split verdict, if you will, on the issue of gay rights -- Texas voters adopting a constitutional amendment defining marriage as between a man and a woman; but supporters of gay rights, winning a referendum in the state of Maine. That is something to watch heading into next year as well. Because Republicans think that helps increase turnout among conservatives.
COOPER: And ballots, of course the polls are still open in California, so we don't know about the ballot initiatives there. Is Arnold Schwarzenegger's reputation on these ballots?
JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SENIOR ANALYST: Yes. Arnold Schwarzenegger, who swept into office two years ago at another special election when they recalled Governor Davis, said I can't work -- can't get the state legislature dominated by Democrats to do what has to be done on a variety of issues. I've got four different reform measures. I'm taking it to the people. A lot of people didn't even like the idea of the special elections -- going to cost about $50 million just to administer it. And as I've often said, when I die, if there's reincarnation, I want to come back as a California consultant because in an off-year, they're going to spend an estimated $200 million on all these different ballot initiatives. They're everything from control state spending to make teachers wait five years instead of two for tenure, to -- and this is a biggie -- force public employees to get individual member's permission to contribute money into politics. That could affect next year's governor's race. And have a panel of retired judges redraw congressional and legislative bounds.
Schwarzenegger has become so unpopular in California that he took himself out of a lot of the commercials about these ballots. His wife, Maria Shriver, of the well-known Kennedy family, who campaigned ardently for him for governor two years ago, is not involved in this campaign at all. It doesn't mean he's finished. It doesn't mean he'll lose, but he's been wounded.
COOPER: A lot to watch for tonight. Jeff, thanks very much. John King, as well. We'll check in later on.
For the latest now, we go to France and the riots that have become a national crisis there. The violence has spread to towns and cities across the country.
(voice-over): More than 1,500 people have been arrested. We're showing you a map of some of the places where violence has been going on for the last several nights. Thousands of cars and buses have been torched -- buildings, as well, including nursery schools. At least one person -- only one remarkably -- has been killed. The rioting began 13 days ago in some of the poorer suburbs of Paris, set off by the deaths of two young men there.
Today, the government gave local officials the power to impose curfews and also announced a sweeping package of reforms aimed at stopping the violence and addressing the problems that caused them. Some say problems long in the making.
Reporting from Paris, with a "Back Story," CNN's Christiane Amanpour.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is the France that everyone knows and many love. Notre Dame Cathedral, on the River Seine, the Place de la Concorde.
(on camera): And right on the same spot, the National Assembly, where despite France's multicultural makeup, there is not a single black, Muslim, or Arab member of parliament. Just as Hurricane Katrina exposed racism and poverty in the United States, these riots have done the same here.
(voice-over): At Beur FM, the first radio station for France's Arab speakers, there is pop music and serious talk that the French way of integration has failed.
AHMED EL KEIYI, EDITOR IN CHIEF, BEUR FM: If we're talking about equality, so everybody has to be equal. And in France, it's not the case. Because we see people -- 10 percent of the population -- who has not the same opportunities, and not the same chances then the other part.
AMANPOUR: Here, on the fashionable, intellectual Left Bank, people are embarrassed and defensive about the violence. And yet they know it is a wakeup call. Jean (ph), Henri (ph), and Oreleon (ph) all go to the So Bon (ph), where they have some classmates with names with names Mohammed, Abdul and Fared.
At the So Bon (ph) we have many students with these names, says Henri (ph). They're French and have the best grades, but they'll have much more difficulty than us finding a job when they graduate.
Like 21-year old Karim (ph) from the Projects. According to an official French study, applicants with Arab sounding names have their resumes rejected five times as often as those with traditional French names.
It's impossible, says Karim (ph). You apply, you send letters; they never reply or they say there's no work, not even part-time.
Unlike in the United States or England, there is no Affirmative Action here. France does not officially recognize ethnic minorities. Instead, right wing parties making hay out of this violence, wrap themselves in the flag and declare France: Love her or leave her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you love the French? You (inaudible). You don't like the French, you go home. Voila. Suplemon (ph).
AMANPOUR: Even in the hot zones, residents are beginning to demonstrate against the wanton burning of sports halls and nurseries, but perhaps the violent message is getting through. Along with curfews, the prime minister promises to fast track urban renewal programs and to help the poor, the young, with schooling and jobs.
AMANPOUR: And the prime minister tacitly admitted that the French model of equality had failed. He called these riots not just criminality, but also he said an appeal -- a warning from the ghettos. But despite a 50-year old law of curfew being invoked, there were more riots in some of the towns and cities as we've seen over the past few nights, now for the 13th night running -- Anderson.
COOPER: But it is calming down to a greater extent, yes? AMANPOUR: They're saying that it's not as much as it was, for instance, at this time yesterday and the last few days. But Molotov cocktail in the subway in the city of Lyon, one of France's biggest cities, shut down the subway. Some stores torched, Molotov cocktails thrown in Toulouse -- I mean this is meant to be under a state of curfew. So it's not over yet.
COOPER: It certainly is not. Christiane, thank you.
Time to check some now -- the day's other headlines. Here's Erica Hill from Atlanta -- Erica.
ERICA HILL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Thanks, Anderson. An immigrant convicted of murdering six deer hunters in Wisconsin last year has been sentenced to life in prison. Chai Vang will not be eligible for parole. Witnesses say Vang open fired on the hunters after they threatened to report him for trespassing on private land. Now Vang had said a hunter fired at him. Other testimony, however, disputed that.
In Washington, an uneasy reunion. Top U.S. officials are planning to meet with the Iraqi Deputy Prime Minister Ahmed Chalabi, a one-time Washington ally, who is later accused of passing American secrets to Iran. The Bush administration is defending the upcoming meeting, saying it's necessary because Chalabi is now an official of the Iraqi government.
In Manchester, New Hampshire, just after liftoff, a small cargo plane crashes into a Wal-Mart. The pilot, who was the only person on board, was hurt, but able to walk away from the crash. Luckily, no reports of injury on the ground.
And if you own a 1995 Honda Civic, keep an eye on it. According to the National Insurance Crime Bureau, the '95 Civic -- the most stolen car last year. The agency says the car's a target for thieves because of it's overall popularity and longevity. Might get good gas mileage too, Anderson, and in these times, even when stealing a car, maybe a thief is thinking of that.
COOPER: Maybe so, Erica. Thanks.
Just to add, tonight, talking about sex and gender -- oh, and did we mention sex?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAUREEN DOWD, AUTHOR: In the late '60s, early '70s we were trying to dress like men in the little blue suits and floppy ties, and work like men, have the exact same work schedules and have orgasms like men.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: By what? Hello? What did she say? That was Maureen Dowd. She's got a lot more to say than that. And she's got a question too: Are men necessary? Later, are you having more sex and enjoying it less? Is your partner cheating? A new survey -- nationwide survey -- and we're taking your calls. The number to dial is 1-877-648-3639. We'll put your questions about sex to our experts. That's 1-877-648-3639. Write it down with your hot, sweaty little hand. Or you can logon to website cnn.com/ -- I don't know, whatever, it's late. Cnn.com/360, click on the instant feedback link.
From America and around the world, this is 360.
COOPER: Well they voted on it in Kansas today. They're slugging it out in a Pennsylvania courtroom. But this, we think, ends the debate. Maureen Dowd is living proof of intelligent design. Whether you like her opinions or not, her politics or not, there is simply no way she happened by random chance. But if she's the product of intelligent design, she's also a student of evolution; specifically, the relationship between men and women. "Are men necessary? When Sexes Collide." That's the title of her new book. We spoke with her earlier tonight.
COOPER: Are you nervous?
DOWD: I'm terrified.
COOPER: Are you really? Why?
DOWD: I'm terrible on TV.
COOPER: Really? Wow, that's interesting.
DOWD: I just didn't realize that you couldn't write a book and not do it.
COOPER: Yes, well, it won't be that bad. I promise. It's a pretty bleak view of life for women in their 20's and 30's now.
DOWD: No. Not really. Actually, I think women are going in the right direction. It just took us a while to figure out that we shouldn't hate men and everything. In the beginning, in the late '60s, early '70s, we were trying to dress like men in the little blue suits and floppy ties, and work like men, have the exact same work schedules and have orgasms like men. And it just took a while to realize that we had to step back and reshape --
COOPER: How (inaudible) have orgasms like men?
DOWD: Well -- well, are you allowed to talk about that on --
COOPER: I don't know. It's basic cable.
DOWD: We were just supposed to have them the same way men have them. Whereas, there's a different, more feminine way that it took women a while to caught on to. But, so anyway, so then we had to step back and decide not to imitate men and to reshape the world and institutions in our own image more. So, I think it's a very positive view. It's just that, just as there were excesses at the beginning where women -- the early feminists try to rule out a lot of the sexuality and frivolity and, you know, they demonized Barbie and Cosmo Girl in high heels and shopping and a lot of the fun stuff women like. Then at the end, you know, they are equally sort of into conformity, but completely the opposite way. The beginning was about not being a sex object and now women are turning themselves into these sex -- into self-actualizing sex kittens and looking for their inner-slot and even tweens are wearing t-shirts that say, My Dad thinks I'm a Virgin, and You looked Hotter Online.
COOPER: You also write that there's been a 40-year backlash against feminists. In what way do you think that?
DOWD: Well I covered a lot of the stories that at the time were fizzy feminist triumphs. I covered the Ferraro campaign, and the Anita Hill, Clarence Thomas hearings, and Hillary --
COOPER: Did you say fizzy feminine triumphs?
DOWD: Fizzy, I mean, when Ferraro was chosen, women were breaking up in champagne bottles on the floor of the convention center and crying and hugging each other. And in retrospect, really, it didn't -- Ferraro didn't make any difference in women's progress. And Anita Hill and Clarence Thomas, that was another -- supposed to be another great feminist moment and it kind of set back women in a way.
And Hillary, two for the price of one first lady, also sort of set back women. And in the end Hillary had to run for senator as a victim. Almost like a Lifetime for Women TV movie. She couldn't run as the strong woman. She was seen as so controlling that in a way she had to have some of that control taken away and be humiliated by her husband and Monica before she could move forward and be a senator.
DOWD: Without Monica --
COOPER: You think that's true?
DOWD: Without Monica there would be no Senator Clinton and there would be President Gore.
DOWD: Oh, yeah.
COOPER: Because what a public humiliation somehow made her more accessible or -- accessible?
DOWD: Yes, it's like Martha Stewart. Some women are seen as so dominating and so controlling that they need to be swept back before they can be popular. COOPER: You've also written about, in the book, about the problems finding dates and how men are intimidated by a successful woman or a critical woman?
DOWD: Well, I didn't write about the problem of me finding dates. I just told one anecdote about a Broadway producer who once told me that he was thinking of asking me out, between marriages, but then didn't because he decided that since I criticize men for a living I might be critical of everything. And also he wanted someone who was more easily awed. But the point is I wouldn't want to go out with someone who would be so easily awed.
I was just saying, I think what has surprised a lot of women who came of age in the late '60s and early '70s is all the things we did that we thought would make us more fascinating like high-powered careers and we wanted that snappy Hepburn/Tracy dialogue, that actually a lot of guys find that draining.
So, here the feminists did all this stuff. They spent years and years getting rid of "Mrs." And now "Mrs." is the chicest accessory a girl can have. You know, they spent years trying to make sure that women didn't have to be objectified. And now women are objectifying themselves. They spent a long time, you know, saying we should pay our half of the check and not be assessed by out sexuality when a guy is buying us dinner. And now women want to be assessed by their sexuality. They want that guy to pony up for dinner.
COOPER: I guess I have to ask you the question, the title is "Are Men Necessary?" What's the answer?
DOWD: Well, you have to read the book.
COOPER: I knew you were going to say that.
COOPER: Maureen Dowd, it's good talking to you.
DOWD: It depends on what time of day you ask me.
COOPER: Oh, is that right?
COOPER: What's an earlier in the day answer?
DOWD: Oh, I don't know. You are!
COOPER: I'm necessary? I appreciate that.
DOWD: I know I can only use that answer once.
COOPER: I appreciate that. Thank you. It's great to have you on the program.
DOWD: All right. Thank you. I'm a big fan.
COOPER: I bet she says that to all the anchors.
In a moment what you and your neighbors are saying about their lives. A new survey with some pretty surprising results. And if you'd like -- to ask some questions to some of our experts on the topic, you can give us a call. It's got me all nervous. The toll free number is 1-877-648-3639. But I've never seen so many crew guys in the room. That's 1-877-648-3639.
Also later screaming crowds, Japanese teenyboppers, raw meat, and a lizard. Thankfully, this is not a sex story. So what is it? Stick around. This is 360.
COOPER: So, how does your sex life match up? A new comprehensive survey is out. We're going to get to that in a moment, but first here is a look at what's happening at this moment.
In Jacksboro, Tennessee, a high school assistant principal is dead. The principal and another assistant are fighting for their lives after a student opened fire this afternoon using a small caliber handgun. The suspect is a 15-year-old. He is in custody. No students were wounded in the attack.
The CIA has asked the Justice Department to review a possible leak of classified information. The information was used in a "Washington Post" article on the agency's secret prisons around the world. Republican leaders in Congress have also called for a joint investigation.
France is under a state of emergency tonight as the country tries to quell riots that have been going on for nearly two weeks. Local officials have begun imposing curfews. Since the rioting began more than 1,500 people have been arrested, thousands of vehicles torched. France's prime minister says his country is at a hour of truth.
And here in the States, it is election night. Several noteworthy races going on. The Associated Press reports that New Yorkers have re-elected Republican Michael Bloomberg as mayor. Meanwhile, CNN projections indicate that Democrats have kept control of governorships of New Jersey and Virginia.
Well, since Maureen Dowd brought it up, we thought we'd talk a little bit more about sex tonight. Not gratuitously, of course, not here at 360. No, this is legit. The biggest survey of American sex lives in 50 years. And we're going to be taking your calls on it. You can call us at 1-877-648-3639. Ask some of your questions to our experts. No small matter, this survey. Men's fitness and shape magazines teamed up for the project. A full report of what they found is in the latest issue of "Men's Fitness", just out on newsstands today.
And what they found? Well, you can decide for yourself. Here's Adaora Udoji.
LIAM NEESON, FROM "KINSEY": Stim-u-lation. Who can tell me which part of the human body can enlarge 100 times?
ADAORA UDOJI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: In "Kinsey," Liam Neeson played the researcher who blew the covers off America's sex lives in the '50s. Now a half century later, "Men's Fitness" surveyed some 11,000 people, as many as the landmark "Kinsey Report" did, about sex to see what's normal these days.
NEAL BOULTON, "MEN'S FITNESS" MAGAZINE: We felt it was time to take on the "Kinsey Report". Times have changed. Sexuality has changed. Folks have evolved. And we wanted to take a look at where we are.
UDOJI: Where we are, according to the study, is between the sheets, at least three times a week; 64 percent of men, and women, said they're having sex three times a week, or more.
BOULTON: Three times a week is, indeed, a great thing report. Good news, we're sexually doing quite well as a country. But folks want more.
UDOJI: So much more they may be willing to stray. For Jude and Sienna, maybe it was the hottie nanny; more likely though the problem was the time apart. As 59 percent of men say, they're driven to cheat because their not getting enough sex or attention.
BOULTON: Women do report a fairly high incidence of cheating as well. Primary reason for that, is that folks are not communicating and getting what they want, at home, in the bedroom.
UDOJI: Here's proof men and women, uh, see things a little differently.
While 82 percent of men say they're good or excellent in the sack, 43 percent of women say only a small number of men were memorable. And 90 percent of all women say their man would never hire a hooker, but nearly 60 percent of men think prostitution should be legal and 20 percent have paid for sex.
BOULTON: I wish I had had a bravado rating, because I think men boast that this is something that's OK, when in fact, I think much fewer men engage in this practice than they'd probably want to report.
UDOJI: We heard a lot of women talking about sex in the hit show "Sex and the City". They were New Yorkers, and New Yorkers have more casual sex than residents of any other state. But Alaskan men have the greatest appetite for casual sex. As for the safest sex, that honor goes to Rhode Island, where men and women get tested for sexually transmitted diseases more than anywhere else in the country.
More sobering, a recent Zogby poll shows just 39 percent of Americans ask a lover if they're infected with HIV. And experts say we need to start practicing safer sex.
BOULTON: And it is one of the easiest and least expensive practices to engage in.
UDOJI: Adaora Udoji, CNN, New York.
COOPER: All right. So those are just the outlines, lots to talk about -- Mom turn the TV off right now. Joining me now is Neal Boulton, who you just heard from Adaora's piece, he's the editor and chief of "Men's Fitness". And Belisa Vranich is the magazine's health and sex editor and a psychologist as well.
Thanks for being with us.
BELISA VRANICH, HEALTH & SEX EDITOR, "MEN'S FITNESS": Thanks for having us.
COOPER: Let's talk about this. People are probably hearing the results of this and asking themselves, are they normal? What is normal in 2005?
VRANICH: Well, that's what we kept having our readers ask us at "Men's Fitness". Am I normal? Do I think about it as much as everybody else? Do I do it as much as everybody else? So we did the survey. And surveyed over 11,000 people to find out exactly what is normal.
What we found is that the definition of normal is a lot broader than you would think. Like you said, 64 percent of Americans are having sex three times a week, or more. So Americans are really having a lot of sex. But the definition? It really is broad and it really is flexible, which is nice to hear.
COOPER: What's the biggest complaint, Neal, you hear from women, about men?
NEAL BOULTON, "MEN'S FITNESS" MAGAZINE: Well, what we hear is that they're not as good as men think they are.
COOPER: Men have -- I think you said in the piece, a bravado index, is what you wanted.
BOULTON: Yes, I wish I had a bravado index. No, women often complain that men believe they're a bit better in bed than they actually are. So, there. COOPER: What about complaints -- men about women?
BOULTON: You know, men often say, they want women to be more aggressive, believe it or not. They want women to maybe even be a little bit more creative in the bedroom.
COOPER: Also, I was pretty fascinated by this. Almost 40 percent of say their desire for sex has increased since their teenage years.
COOPER: Only 24 percent of men say their desire has increased. A whopping 76 percent of guys say their desire has stayed the same, or actually gone down. Why do you think the difference?
VRANICH: Well, women are being more exogen about their sex lives. They're actually admitting they have a high libido later in life. And in the second part of that is that work stress is really taking a toll on men's libido. So we're seeing men's libido plateau or go down and women's go up.
COOPER: I think stress is a huge factor that a lot of people don't really pay attention to.
BOULTON: That's true. I mean, like folks are still reporting -- you know, it is sort of the Yuppie syndrome we read about in the '80s. It is still continuing in the 2K years. Folks are tired, they're not engaging in sexual relations as much.
COOPER: What about cheating? A lot of men, women, obviously are cheating. What are sort of the relationship danger zones?
VRANICH: Well, one of the dangers is that they are not being safe about their cheating. You really shouldn't be cheating in the first place. And 60 percent of Americans do not cheat. So, it is a nice high number.
COOPER: Oh, 60 percent do not?
VRANICH: Do not.
COOPER: According to what?
VRANICH: According to our survey. What you have to remember, completely -- on the computer, anonymous, so people are actually being pretty straight forward. And telling the truth, we hope, we expect.
COOPER: All right. We're going to be taking calls from our viewers.
COOPER: We already have a ton of calls in. Still ahead on 360, if you want to hear about you, or have your questions answered try to call us the toll free number is 1-877-648-3639, 1-877-648-3639. We'll put your questions and your e-mails to our guests. We'll be right back.
COOPER: All right. This is your chance, this is the segment, the subject is still sex. We're going to take your calls now the toll free number is 1-877-648-3639. We have some of you on the line already.
Alice in Oregon. Alice, good evening, what's your question?
CALLER: Yes, my question is, I believe first of all that sex is very essential and that we do need men, ladies, whether you like it or not.
Anyway, I have a husband that had a heart attack a couple of years ago and our sex life is just like gone down to zilch. And I don't know how to get around him to get him back to having an interest. Because I'm not exactly gone yet, on the subject.
COOPER: Belisa, what do you think?
VRANICH: Well, one of things that happens when you have a major medical problem is that there are after affects. Depression and libido can go down. So, I would say definitely talk to your doctor about what medications your husband is taking. And see what you can do on your own, maybe without him, without getting too explicit. But definitely talk to your doctor because sometimes the meds that you're taking can have an effect on your libido. If it has gotten over a certain amount of time, you may want to consider couples therapy as well, if you haven't already.
COOPER: All right. Next question, we have Kristi in Michigan.
COOPER: Hey, what's your question?
CALLER: Well, I just had a quick question. Has anyone ever looked into the fact that woman are oxytocin driven and men don't have any oxytocin. Like when they're nipples are stimulated then they have a flow and flood of oxytocin, which is the same the same hormone that makes you bond with your baby.
VRANICH: No, that sounds like something that needs to be researched. I know that is not something that we actually touched on, on the survey, at all. It sounds really specific and you know, we'll look into it. That's all I can say about that.
COOPER: What surprised you most about the survey?
BOULTON: I think it was the enthusiasm with which folks were willing to share their interest in sex. And they're interested in having more and learning more about sexuality. It's amazing. America is known as being very Puritanical, but in this survey we realized folks are really talking about it. It's not a bad word anymore.
COOPER: Harry in Illinois is on the line.
Harry, what's your question?
CALLER: Yes, I just wanted to say that I think the lack of self awareness and absence of intimacy are two major reasons why relationships fail in America, or anywhere. And I just wanted to ask the panel members what they think about those two issues?
COOPER: What do you think about intimacy?
VRANICH: Right on target. You are absolutely right on target. You need to know yourself well. You need to talk to your partner. Communication is essential. You are absolutely on target. We hope to do that.
COOPER: Do men want intimacy as much as woman want intimacy?
BOULTON: They do. And I think what we've noticed is that men want it even a bit more. And but the caller is absolutely right, the lack of intimacy breeds all sorts of problems. That's why I like to stress, as well as Belisa, communication in a relationship is the key to encouraging intimacy and then staving off all kinds of other problems.
COOPER: Harry, thanks for the question. Lisa, we have a question from Lisa.
Lisa writes in: "Is there really a mid-life sex crisis for men, where they feel the need to date much younger women?" We see this all the time in movies and stuff. Is it for real?
VRANICH: I think that men -- what we saw from the survey is that men are having a problem with their libido. And then what probably happens is that to try to counteract that or feel better, they might actually go and pursue women that are younger than they are, for that reason.
BOULTON: I think that also, we also see -- you know, it is a tradition in the history of sexuality in men, a desire for younger women. However, again, I keep underscoring. Communication in a relationship can keep any kind of relationship flourishing, challenging these types of patterns and traditions.
COOPER: Danny in Florida, you have a question. Danny, what's your question?
CALLER: My question is, if women really don't need men, do men really need women?
COOPER: Referring to Maureen Dowd's book, previously. Well, I don't know how one would answer that.
BOULTON: I think the jury is out on that one.
COOPER: It's more of a rhetorical question, I think.
BOULTON: Certainly is.
COOPER: We appreciate that.
VRANICH: You know, I think I need them and I think that you'd say that we need women as well. I think that --
BOULTON: I think everyone needs everyone.
Now, I'm going to sort of say (INAUDIBLE).
COOPER: We'll leave it at that. Thank you for joining us.
VRANICH: Thank you.
COOPER: And always taking calls a risky thing. Appreciate you putting up with that.
VRANICH: Thank you.
COOPER: It's in "Men's Fitness" magazine. It's a fascinating survey.
BOULTON: Thank you.
COOPER: Still ahead tonight on 360, big oil executives in the hot seat, they are "On The Radar" tonight. Tomorrow they face the senators.
And a game we're pretty sure you've never seen. In fact, we're almost certain. We've been waiting all night to show you this. It's all about pork chops and one Japanese singers and a giant lizard. We'll explain ahead.
COOPER: In a moment we're going to take a look at what's "One The Radar" for tomorrow, the stories that will be happening. But first we came across some video we had to show you. Regular viewers of 360 know that we keep Japanese TV close to our hearts, always. But today we spotted a very special TV show from Japan. Watch and enjoy. We used our telestrator on this one, but please don't try this at home.
COOPER: This Japanese TV special begins with this rather large lizard. Hmm, that screaming bit is going to get annoying. These young women are all part of a girl pop group called Monday Mozame (ph). And yes, those are pork chops strapped to their heads.
The idea is simple really. Watch the girls scream as the lizard approaches. Problem is the lizard is really kind of slow. So, they decide to a solution. They grab the lizard, shake it up a little bit. And then watch what happens.
Let's pause it right there. I love the translation by the way. The studio is in a panic. The studio is in a panic. And also, what's the deal with Santa and the tongue?
Look at this young woman's face. It's priceless. And I like how brave she is. She could care less.
We're not really sure how the game ends, but frankly we're not sure it really matters. In Japanese TV, as in American, as long as you're watching it doesn't have to make any sense.
COOPER: I could watch that all day and I have. That of course reminds us of our favorite 360 Japanese video. We're happy to debut it tonight at our new time slot. It is a real commercial made to attract new recruits to the equivalent of the Japanese navy. Just a little thing called "Seamanship".
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COOPER: It's so good we ran it twice for you. Now "On The Radar" tonight, no seaman, no reptiles, just oil company executives with -- that's sounds like a fine line up -- with the winter coming and fuel prices already higher than they've been in years, the CEOs from the big five American oil companies being called to account for prices, profits and their paychecks. They'll appear before a Senate committee tomorrow. We'll report from the Hill and the pumps.
Also, what are you kids watching, that is when they're not watching 360 of course. Kids listen to your Uncle Anderson, watch CNN and lay off the doughnuts. Hmm, doughnuts.
All right. A new study comes out tomorrow on the sexual content of TV. Is "Desperate Housewives" the norm? We'll have the results of the study, as well as how parents can make the best of what's out there.
Also "On the Radar" tomorrow, it is literally on the radar, at least it will be. The Boeing 777 test flight takes off from Hong Kong at 9 am tomorrow morning. Crosses the Pacific, crosses the U.S., crosses the North Atlantic and sets down a London's Heathrow Airport, 23 hours later. That's 23 hours that is 12 in flight movies, or just about one "Situation Room" we think. And it's all "On The Radar" tomorrow.
(INAUDIBLE) I say it with love, come on. 360 continues in just a moment with a look at the latest election results.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) COOPER: Quick recap now of tonight's election results. Listen for Democrats to be crowing in the morning. If you can hear them already. CNN is projecting that Democrats have secured two governorships.
In Virginia, Democrat Tim Kaine, defeated Republican Jerry Kilgore. This despite a last-minute push by President Bush on Kilgore's behalf. In New Jersey, we're projecting that Democrat Jon Corzine will win out over Republican Doug Forrester.
But in New York City's mayoral race, the Republican Mike Bloomberg appears headed for re-election. No surprise there. The Associated Press reporting, projecting him to be victorious or Democrat Fernando Ferrer.
And in California, several referendums backed by Arnold Schwarzenegger have been put to voters. Observers say the results will be a litmus test of Arnold's political health. He is up for re- election next year.
Thanks very much for watching this two-hour edition of 360. We'll be back tomorrow night. Larry King is coming up next. A few moments of "Seamanship", I think we have before we go. Bye.
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