Return to Transcripts main page
ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
O.J. Simpson Now Facing 11 Criminal Charges; Student Tasered at John Kerry Speech
Aired September 18, 2007 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: On the eve of his arraignment, the criminal complaint against O.J. Simpson is filed, accusing him of 11 counts, including a new charge, kidnapping.
Also tonight, a fourth suspect arrested. More arrests may be pending. One eyewitness says there were as many as seven men in O.J. Simpson's group in that hotel room in Vegas -- just some of the latest developments in a day of stunning new details and accusations.
A co-defendant says Simpson was set up. That claim centers on the man who recorded the alleged armed robbery, a man, as you will see, tonight who has a long rap sheet and questionable motives.
We will also look agent the big business of sports memorabilia. We will talk with Mike Gilbert, Simpson's former licensing agent, a man who admits he helped Simpson hide money from going to the family of Ron Goldman and Simpson's murdered wife, a man who Simpson believes stole his merchandise.
Let's begin with the latest. A fourth suspect in the Simpson alleged armed robbery case turned himself into police hours ago. Michael McClinton is named in the criminal complaint, along with three other suspects, including Simpson, all formally charged with 11 criminal counts.
The charges include two counts of kidnapping, two counts of robbery, two counts of assault, all involving the use of a deadly weapon. There's more. Today, police in Vegas released these photos of two suspects wanted in connection with the alleged armed robbery.
The pictures were taken on September 13 by Palace Station Hotel and Casino surveillance cameras. Tomorrow, Simpson goes to court for his arraignment and possibly bail hearing.
Another new detail, the sordid past of the man who was with Simpson when he entered that hotel room. According to the Web site TheSmokingGun.com this guy, Tom Riccio, who recorded the recording on audiotape, is an ex-con who spent eight years behind bars.
His convictions are for arson and conspiracy to receive stolen goods. He even escaped from prison. A lot to get to tonight.
Joining us are CNN's Ted Rowlands from Las Vegas, CNN senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin, and, from The Smoking Gun, Bill Bastone.
Jeff, I want to start off with you. Moments ago, on Larry king, this guy Tom Riccio was on, basically describing how he set up this operation. He called up O.J., told O.J. that this merchandise, which he said was stolen from him, was in this hotel room and then set up this guy Alfred Beardsley and the other guy, telling them there was a big-name buyer coming in.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Anderson, this case looks like it's going from the heist of the century to a Marx Brothers movie.
I mean, his description of 10 people falling all over each other inside that hotel room was much more comedy than tragedy. But I got to tell you, I hope the Las Vegas police know what they're doing, because if they think even O.J. Simpson is going to be convicted on the word of this joker, this guy, who, as far as I can tell, did nothing more than O.J. did, but he gets immunity, and O.J. Simpson is looking at 30 years in prison.
I mean, I really don't understand what's going on with this case, because this is really some bizarre stuff.
COOPER: Bill, let's talk about -- you have been looking into this guy Tom Riccio. What -- what do you know about him?
WILLIAM BASTONE, EDITOR, THESMOKINGGUN.COM: He's a four-time convicted felon, four separate cases, two federal cases, two state cases. He served a total of eight years in jail.
This is a guy whose criminal career started two decades ago. He has two convictions for receiving stolen property. So, it's kind of ironic that he's in the middle of a case that involves stolen property...
COOPER: On "LARRY KING," he described his past as, he's had some troubles in his past.
BASTONE: Well, I -- yes, well, I -- yes, I mean, I guess it depends on what your definition of trouble is.
BASTONE: You know, I mean, four felony convictions is significant trouble, I would think.
COOPER: Ted, at least one co-defendant says that Simpson was set up by Tom Riccio.
I know you spoke to an attorney for Clarence Stewart today, another co-defendant. What did he say about the possibility that this thing was a setup? TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we're hearing the same thing from multiple people. We have been hearing it really for the last few days.
Today, we sat down with one of the attorneys representing one of the other alleged accomplices in this scenario, and he basically said the same thing, that Riccio is the problem, because why was he taping, is the big question here. Listen into a little bit about what -- well, what he said to us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT LUCHERINI, ATTORNEY FOR CLARENCE STEWART: I think that O.J. was being played with a little bit, and, again, we don't know what Riccio was doing, when he started taping, what his intentions were.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROWLANDS: And, basically, he went on to say that Riccio should be looked at. And that's the feeling from a lot of people in this, because he had knowledge of this when O.J. did, if not before. He's allegedly -- is allegedly the guy that set this up, so, a lot of heat on him.
You heard him last hour on "LARRY KING," basically saying that it was O.J. that was orchestrating it, but a lot of people are very skeptical of him. And this news that just was reported -- that we can't confirm, by the way -- that he may be getting immunity, not going over very well on the Simpson camp and those associated with him.
COOPER: Well, he said on "LARRY KING," Ted, that -- that he was given immunity by Las Vegas Police. Do we not know that for a fact?
ROWLANDS: We do not know that for a fact.
As soon as he made that statement, we started making calls. And I did get ahold of somebody with the district attorney's office. And they say they cannot comment on it at all. We're still working it to try to confirm it.
But, boy, you -- you take a guy that orchestrated this and was at least involved in the conspiracy, to be given immunity at this juncture, we're not -- we just haven't been able to confirm it, but that's what he is saying. And -- and, so...
ROWLANDS: ... we have got to take him at his word...
ROWLANDS: ... until we can prove him differently.
COOPER: Jeff, I want to play you just something he said -- Tom Riccio said on "LARRY KING" a little bit earlier.
Let's play that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "LARRY KING LIVE")
LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": Do you think your credibility at all is tainted by the fact that you sold tapes, honestly?
THOMAS RICCIO, RECORDED SIMPSON'S ALLEGED CRIME: I don't -- people are going to -- people are going to decide that for themselves, whether my credibility -- you know, I really don't care. The tapes speaks for themselves.
You know, I -- I made the tape. I -- I thought something might happen. I wasn't sure. I wanted to make sure, in case something did happen, it was documented. And I'm -- I'm glad I did.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Jeff, besides the fact that I love it when people dress up to be on television...
COOPER: ... does it matter whether this was a setup, that this was something, if -- if it was -- turns out that it was orchestrated by Tom Riccio to -- for him to be able to record something and sell that tape to TMZ, or -- or be on television, or whatever his motive may be, does any of that matter, the bottom line being Simpson barging into a hotel room, allegedly, with at least one gun?
TOOBIN: Well, it doesn't really matter if Riccio had impure motives.
And, given what we know about Riccio, I can't imagine he has pure motives to do anything, including getting up in the morning.
But the point is, it's not that -- I don't think his problem is the tape. I mean, the tape speaks for itself. I think that's true. The taped evidence is what it is. The problem is, what is the theory of the case here? What is the government's theory? Even Riccio's own statements on Larry King, as far as I heard him, was -- is that he was the one who took O.J. into that room. He was the one who led O.J.
O.J. didn't even know what room it was, until Riccio took him there to get this stuff back.
COOPER: Right. And, according to -- according to Riccio, he told Alfred Beardsley and -- and the other man in the room that he had a big buyer who wanted O.J.'s stuff. And then he left the room to get the big buyer.
And, lo and behold, the big buyer turns out to be O.J. and his posse.
TOOBIN: As -- as Riccio -- Riccio knew. Riccio knew they were coming up there not to buy the stuff, but to take the stuff.
So, how come O.J. Simpson is a criminal looking at 20 years in prison, according to the Las Vegas authorities, and Riccio gets immunity?
TOOBIN: What's the difference between their culpability? I don't get it.
COOPER: ... what jumps out at you in this -- in this case?
BASTONE: Well, I mean, I think it's amazing that his first impulse -- now, he tapes this thing. He has this tape in his possession and knows that it's -- would be of interest to the Las Vegas authorities. But he never discloses it, because he's working on a side deal to sell it to a tabloid Web site.
Now, there's -- there are chain-of-custody questions here in terms of the tape, and why he hides it for several days while he's making a financial deal on the side, and, then, suddenly, the authorities have to find out about it online, is really remarkable.
Usually, in these sorts of cases, people tend to cash in, you know, a couple of months into the trial or, you know, into the case. It's pretty remarkable. This guy is selling evidence within, like, two days of the case. It's unbelievable.
COOPER: Ted, you have been talking to some people?
ROWLANDS: Yes, that -- basically, that the -- the thought here is, is that Riccio also -- and this is what we're hearing -- this is what is alleged by one of the other co-defendants' attorneys -- that he may have other tapes, too, of conversations that he had with O.J. Simpson during the planning of all of this, which they want out, if those are -- if that's true, because that would make his culpability even greater.
And it just makes people shake their heads. If that's true, we haven't been able to confirm that as well. But the bottom line is, that was a bombshell that we heard last -- last hour, that he -- he has potentially gotten immunity out of this, because we do know, early on, according to a source, that he was a focus of this investigation, part of the focus.
COOPER: Ted -- Ted, the other question exactly tonight which is not clear is, what exactly were these items? In one -- in several press reports, according to police accounts, O.J. Simpson's suit that he wore the day he got off -- the day he was declared innocent in the murder trial, that was in the room; a certificate of his was in the room; a Rolex watch was in the room. These were the items, some of the items, taken by the group.
I just talked to the man Mike, whose name is repeatedly referenced on this tape, the man who O.J. Simpson believes stole those items from him, who -- he categorically denies that. We're going to play that interview in our next block.
But -- but, Ted, one of the alleged victims, Bruce Fromong, is in the hospital tonight. He suffered a -- a major heart attack. You spoke to him on Friday.
And I just want to play part of that interview of what -- him talking about what was in the room.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRUCE FROMONG, SPORTS MEMORABILIA COLLECTOR: There was a lot of stuff that was taken there that I have paid O.J. for the autographs. I can prove that I designed and manufactured some of the footballs that were made there. Those were my footballs. The photos and stuff that were there, he was paid for. That was my stuff.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: At this point, have police determined what the memorabilia was, where it is now, and who it may belong to?
ROWLANDS: Yes, for the most part.
They -- in fact, they were able to recover a significant amount of it yesterday during the third arrest, that of Clarence Stewart. We talked to his lawyer today. And he said -- he detailed some of the items that were in Stewart's possession, including ties that O.J. wore during the trial, personal photographs of O.J. as a youngster and of his family, things that O.J. Simpson told me on the phone were in this room that night.
And this was -- now it's been corroborated by another person that these were real personal items. So, it's tricky.
Everybody agrees, everybody involved with this, that some of those items truly did belong to either O.J. Simpson or the Goldmans, no matter whichever way you want to look at it. But O.J. Simpson did seem to have some sort of ownership of some of these items. And they are going to have to work all of that out, obviously, as they proceed.
COOPER: So, Jeff, is this -- I mean, is this case falling apart or -- before it's even begun?
TOOBIN: Well, I think it's important to wait to hear what the government's side is.
We have only heard from the peculiar cast of characters who will be the witnesses in the case. And don't forget, my favorite piece of memorabilia that -- apparently, the thing he was most concerned about was his autographed picture of himself with J. Edgar Hoover.
Now, why O.J. Simpson cared so deeply about a photograph with O.J. Simpson -- with J. Edgar Hoover, you know, your imagination can run wild.
But, in any case, the government has to have a coherent theory to present to a jury, to say, look, the -- this event in this hotel room happened because O.J. Simpson wanted to do X., and he initiated it. And the reason why Riccio is given immunity and Simpson is being prosecuted is the following.
At the moment, the reason doesn't occur to me. But the government hasn't had really the opportunity yet to lay out its case, but it sure is not clear to me what the government's case is.
We will have more from Jeff and -- and from Ted coming up.
Bill Bastone, I want to thank you for being on the program from TheSmokingGun.com. You can go to their Web site for more information on this character Tom Riccio.
While Simpson sits in jail, the family of Ron Goldman was in a Los Angeles court today, hoping to take possession of those items seized in the alleged armed robbery, the signed football, Simpson's NFL Hall of Fame certificate.
A judge denied the request until it's determined who exactly owns the property. The Goldmans, as you know, were awarded $33.5 million in their wrongful death lawsuit against Simpson. So far, they have collected very little. Simpson says he has no money, but he does sign autographs. And some say, by setting up shop in tucked-away places, where privacy is key and cash is king, he rakes it in.
CNN's Joe Johns investigates.
JOE JOHNS, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In the world of sports memorabilia, the O.J. Simpson trading card from his rookie NFL season doesn't bring much these days, 45 bucks or so.
(on camera): Yes, so, you don't have a lot of O.J. stuff.
BILL HUGGINS, SPORTS MEMORABILIA DEALER: I don't need a lot.
JOHNS (voice-over): But that's only the beginning of the story. Bill Huggins runs the House of Cards in Silver Spring, Maryland, a modest storefront, to say the least.
But his online sports memorabilia online auction business is one of the biggest in the country. The way he sees it, there are three markets in this business, sales of the ordinary legit stuff, pieces of some of the legends of sport that you will see in the showcases. And, like fine wine, there's good stuff in the vault. This rare baseball card could be worth $10,000 in the next auction.
And then there's the underworld, with its fake signatures, jerseys and such, things sold by people the Justice Department likes to drag before a judge.
But then, as Huggins sees it, there's O.J.'s world, a world unto itself where a fallen hero, unable to escape from his ruined reputation, slinks around in the shadows, seemingly cashing in on the fast buck of his former fame. Huggins remembers O.J. two years ago in Chicago at the biggest sports memorabilia show in the country. Huggins was there, and he says, so was O.J.
HUGGINS: I heard that he was -- had set up a table and had started signing autographs. I don't know who was taking the money or who was providing it and whatever, but then the promoters of the show basically escorted him out of the building.
And I understand -- or I know for a fact he went across the street to the Embassy Suites Hotel and set up shop in one of the rooms there and was signing autographs for several hours. I don't know what he was charging, but there was a line outside this door.
JOHNS: So, yes, there are people who will buy this stuff. But how much Simpson gets dropping in on memorabilia shows, selling his signature, is, frankly, anybody's guess. A Cal Ripken signature goes for about $125.
The spontaneity of these for-profit O.J. autograph appearances is no doubt by design. After all, a civil court ordered O.J. to pay every penny he earns, outside of his pensions, in a judgment. The quick all-cash world of an O.J. appearance at a memorabilia show is hard to catch.
DAVID COOK, COLLECTIONS ATTORNEY FOR GOLDMAN FAMILY: These are cash transactions. And, for that flash of a moment, if the funds you're receiving from individuals, that is, retail customers, then we would need to send physically the sheriff there to intercept that money when it gets there.
JOHNS: Simpson's lawyer says, Simpson is abiding by the rules, despite the Goldman family's protests.
RONALD SLATES, ATTORNEY FOR O.J. SIMPSON: We have a system here. The system was followed. He has a right to collect. We have a right to protect.
JOHNS: So, how much could we be talking about here? Any other Heisman Trophy winner, NFL Hall of Famer -- and Simpson is both -- could easily fetch more than $100 for each and every signature he writes on a football jersey. It could all add up.
In fact, it should add up on Simpson's tax returns.
HUGGINS: I know for a fact several guys who have taken money put it in their pockets, cash-cash, and the tax people have come after them for not reporting it, you know. So, it's actually a job, which, you know, you're getting paid for. And, a lot of times, though, yes, they do get paid in folding green dollars, and just walk away and drive off in their Lexus or their Bentley, and away they go.
COOPER: Joe, do we know how much O.J. Simpson memorabilia there is out there? I mean, is there an inventory list?
JOHNS: That could literally be the million-dollar question, Anderson. One problem is that no one really knows specifically what memorabilia Simpson owns, what he may have sold or where it is.
There's no formal charge, of course, that Simpson failed to report income. His lawyer, again, says he's done what he's supposed to do. Today, in court, in California, a judge tentatively denied that request to take Simpson's earnings from autograph signings to satisfy the multimillion-dollar judgment.
But the judge also gave Fred Goldman's lawyer a week to try to get together a list of those items of memorabilia Simpson is accused of going to the hotel in Vegas to take possession of -- Anderson.
COOPER: Joe Johns, appreciate the reporting.
Up next, a man who may be able to shed some light on this murky world, the man helped O.J. rake in cash from memorabilia for years, and now says he wants to clear his conscience. O.J. Simpson accuses him of stealing his memorabilia. We will talk exclusively tonight to O.J.'s former merchandising partner.
COOPER (voice-over): She thought it was a slam-dunk case.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We the jury, in the above-entitled action, find the defendant, Orenthal James Simpson, not guilty of the crime of murder.
COOPER: So, after the trial, where did Simpson prosecutor Marcia Clark go? You might be surprised to hear about her new career. We will tell you what it is -- when 360 continues.
COOPER (voice-over): So, what happened to the prosecution? Marcia Clark left her job in 1997 and wrote a book about the trial. Today, she's a special correspondent for "Entertainment Tonight."
Chris Darden left to become a college professor. He's also written a book and appeared on several television shows. Today, he runs his own law firm.
360 continues in 90 seconds.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) COOPER: O.J. Simpson himself has said that he was in the Palace Station Hotel and Casino inside the alleged victims' room, trying to retrieve some items that he says were stolen.
Simpson has long accused a former associate of his is stealing his personal belongings. The one-time associate, Mike Gilbert, did admit to taking some of Simpson's property, including his Heisman Trophy. But that was in the late 1990s. And he says that was because Simpson owed him money. Gilbert has since turned those items over to authorities.
Simpson is still calling him a thief.
Earlier, I had an exclusive conversation with Mike Gilbert.
COOPER: I want to play an excerpt from this confrontation inside the hotel room in which somebody named Mike is referenced.
And I just want to play this and -- and get your thoughts on it. Let's listen.
MIKE GILBERT, FORMER SPORTS AGENT OF O.J. SIMPSON: All right. Sure.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) you! Mind your own business!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look at this (EXPLETIVE DELETED)!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get over there!
SIMPSON: You think you can steal my (EXPLETIVE DELETED)?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Backs to the wall!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was trying to get past you!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Walk your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) over there!
SIMPSON: Think you can steal my (EXPLETIVE DELETED)?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mike took it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You, against the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) wall!
SIMPSON: I know (EXPLETIVE DELETED) Mike took it!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Search him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I know what Brian's trying to prove.
SIMPSON: I always thought you were a straight shooter! UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm cool. I am.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stand up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So -- so...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) (EXPLETIVE DELETED) up!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stand the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) up!
(END AUDIO CLIP)
COOPER: It's confusing to hear without seeing the transcript, but they're basically saying, "Mike took it."
Is the Mike Simpson's referring to and that Alfred Beardsley is referring to, is that you, to your knowledge?
GILBERT: Well, I guess -- I mean, I would imagine that it is, sure.
COOPER: So, what happened, as far as you know? I mean, they're saying, basically, that you stole items from O.J. Simpson?
GILBERT: O.J. is saying that I stole items from him. That's pretty funny.
Now, let me ask you, Anderson, do you think that, if anything was stolen from O.J., that he could just call me and ask me, hey, Mike, did you take this or that? And do you think it would take him 13 years to ask somebody? Probably not.
The -- what he was looking for when he walked in was the suit that he wore the day of the verdict. That suit, O.J. gave me, which has been public knowledge since October 4, the day after the verdict. Or -- I think it was October 4.
COOPER: Why did he give you that suit?
GILBERT: The next morning -- you know, it was odd.
Anderson, I was in his bedroom upstairs. It was sitting on the floor in his closet. He looked down. He said, here, take this. You know, you can probably use it more than I can. If you don't take it, somebody else is going to walk in and just walk out with it.
So, I took it. And I think it was -- I think it was probably a gift because I had been through the grind with him just about every day at the jail, spent -- I can't even count the hours that I sat in that jail with O.J.
So, to me, it was just a gift to, you know, a part of history.
COOPER: And where is that suit now?
GILBERT: I have it.
COOPER: You say you still have that suit?
GILBERT: I have the suit. It's been in my possession every day since October 4, 1995.
COOPER: How much money has O.J. Simpson made off memorabilia, do you think?
GILBERT: Just when he was in jail, probably a couple of million dollars. We signed autographs about every day for a year-and-a-half.
COOPER: Every day for a year-and-a-half while he was in jail, you and he signed autographs, and you think he made more than $1 million or several million dollars?
GILBERT: Oh, he would have to have, yes.
COOPER: And, you know, obviously, there was a judgment against him that was supposed to go to the Goldman family and also the Brown family, the Brown estate.
What was the way that he avoided paying the money that he, you know, got from signing memorabilia to -- to the civil judgment?
GILBERT: Well, the way O.J. figured, if the Goldmans didn't actually catch him at the airport and take the money out of his pocket, they would never get it.
So, he would -- he would fly in, do a signing. The money, he would have somebody else carry it back. So, O.J. didn't have to carry it. It was always reported that he was doing this as a favor to somebody. It was usually paid in cash. He was supposed to sign receipts for the money, which he would mysteriously walk out of the room with, so he didn't have to report the income.
COOPER: And would you go to these signings with him?
GILBERT: Most of them, yes.
COOPER: So -- so, someone else was carrying the money. How much in any given signing could he make?
GILBERT: Fifty thousand dollars.
COOPER: In cash?
GILBERT: In cash.
COOPER: And then would he -- would he declare that to the IRS?
GILBERT: I highly doubt it. COOPER: To your knowledge? I mean, do you know for a fact that he didn't declare it to the IRS?
GILBERT: You know, O.J. used to say that he would claim above and beyond what his income was. But, knowing O.J. and the way he thinks and the way he operates, I would be shocked if he declared that money.
If he was going to declare the money, would he not have just signed the receipts that he was being paid?
COOPER: Did -- I mean, you must have had conversations about the civil judgment against him. Did he just feel it wasn't something he needed to pay?
GILBERT: He felt that he was above the law. He felt he didn't have to pay it.
If -- if they could take it, they could take it. But, other than that, he wasn't going to pay the money.
COOPER: Do you feel any responsibility that you helped, I mean, aid and abet him in avoiding the civil judgment?
COOPER: You do?
GILBERT: Yeah, I do. I have for a long time. That's why I'm not working for him any longer.
COOPER: You know, Mike, that some people watching this are going to say, well, look, here's a guy who was making money off O.J. Simpson, was helping him avoid paying the civil judgment, was traveling around, doing these shows with him, kind of under the table, cash money business. Then you had a falling-out, and now you're saying bad things about him. Now you're -- you're trashing him.
To those people, what do you say?
GILBERT: I don't really care, to be very honest with you, what those people -- what they think.
I didn't murder two people on June 12. I haven't put myself above my family and my kids, like O.J. has. O.J. has loyalty to one person. And that's himself, not to me, not to any of the friends that are -- that have been by him, stuck by him...
COOPER: And you believe...
GILBERT: ... even his own kids.
COOPER: You believe he murdered his wife and Ron Goldman?
GILBERT: Absolutely, with no doubt. The first thing I said when I called my home from Yosemite and found out that -- my wife said that: "Nicole has been murdered. O.J. is in handcuffs. You need to get to Rockingham."
The first words out of my mouth were: "He finally did it. He finally did it."
COOPER: Mike Gilbert...
COOPER: Mike, we appreciate you talking tonight. Hope to talk to you again in the near future.
Mike, thank you very much.
GILBERT: All right. Thank you, Anderson.
COOPER: Let's bring back CNN senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin and Ted Rowlands.
Jeff, what do you make of that?
TOOBIN: Well, to put it mildly, this is a chaotic situation.
The ownership of the memorabilia at issue is clearly unsettled and is not going to be settled. There's obviously no legal documents in connection with this.
It is true that, even if O.J. did own this stuff, he had no right to barge into the room and take it on his own. But the -- the problem for the government will be showing whose idea it was, what Simpson's role was, and whether he knew any weapon was going to be involved.
And how did seven people get involved? And who asked them to get -- to -- to do this? You know, government -- the government always benefits when a case is simple. And this situation is looking more and more complicated all the time.
COOPER: Ted, what happens tomorrow in court?
ROWLANDS: Well, tomorrow, O.J. Simpson will appear, make his first appearance. The charges will be read.
And then the subject of bail will come up. We expect he will make his first appearance in front of one judge, and then we understand there will be a transfer to another judge. And, key, bail amount will be determined. And, at that point, he will presumably be able to make the bail, depending on how high it is, and he will get out of here.
What he will do from there remains to be seen. How much of a delay until the preliminary hearing or if they're going to go grand jury route, we don't know. But he will most likely be free tomorrow at some point in the afternoon, if he gets bail and if it's not too high.
COOPER: We will have more from Jeff Toobin coming up.
Ted Rowlands, appreciate the reporting.
Up next: What was he thinking? We will take you, as much as we can, inside the mind of O.J. Simpson, and inside the seven-by (INAUDIBLE) jail cell he is now calling home. That is it.
Also tonight this: a student Tasered during a John Kerry speech. Did police go too far? You be the judge -- ahead on 360.
COOPER: Well, from a sleazy hotel room to a 7x14-foot cell like this. That is where O.J. Simpson is right now, protective custody in Vegas. Could be worse: he has a window with direct sunlight.
As with everyone else, his life in jail is under a microscope. Even the standard issue inmate garb he's wearing is known. We're told he's served breakfast at around 4 a.m. All that stuff may be auctioned off on memorabilia someday.
Simpson has had a few visitors so far, including a religious minister who gave him a copy of the book "The Purpose Driven Life".
Those details fold into the fascination with everything about O.J. Simpson, it seems. Much of the focus has to do with what he does and what he has done. What about what he thinks?
There are those who say he may be a sociopath. Certainly, some of the people we have talked to over the last few days think so.
Joining us now, psychiatrist and best-selling author, Dr. Gail Saltz.
As you look at his actions, as you watch his interviews, what do you make of his actions?
DR. GAIL SALTZ, PSYCHIATRIST/AUTHOR: Well, you know, when you look at the history, you do have to think about sociopathy. The reason is that you think about breaking the law, lying, cheating, stealing, feeling that you're above the law. King of grandiosity.
Someone who's very charming and yet is quite irrational at times, aggressive at times, has trouble maintaining any long-term relationships that are solid, has trouble maintaining a job. I mean, if you think about it, he hasn't actually really maintained a job since the days of acting and his football career.
COOPER: Well, he says, you know, he doesn't want to do any work, that the money is just going to go to the Goldman family or to the estate of the Brown family.
Does he know right from wrong?
SALTZ: Well, you know, you wouldn't know that unless you would speak with him. He might feel that he's justified, that what he's doing is right. Now, that wouldn't be the rest of our definition of right.
But a sociopath believes that they are justified, so to speak, in what they're doing, that they have their own sort of way of viewing the world and they are simply right.
COOPER: You believe he may have unconscious guilt. What does that mean?
SALTZ: What that means is, it seems very telling to me that here's someone who has been accused of and found civilly guilty of committing a horrendous crime, comes out with a book, "If I Did It", which basically is like this, you know, saying, "I did it." Almost like catch me again.
And then several days after this book comes out, walks into a room with somebody, at least, with a gun, potentially, and does this sort of very self-destructive thing.
I mean, Las Vegas is a place where there are cameras everywhere. There can't be any way you could go into such a thing without either believing that you are so above the law that nothing can touch you or that you are really doing something intensely self-destructive.
COOPER: And yet there is something, it seems, about him that craves attention.
SALTZ: Craves attention, and the question is, you know, is this all about attention, or does he feel guilty underneath it all? And even if he's not aware of it, need to be doing these things that call attention and can get him in trouble and get him punished because, at some level, he believes he deserves to be punished?
COOPER: It's fascinating. Dr. Gail Saltz, we appreciate your perspective. Thank you very much.
Let's take a quick check with Kiran Chetry, what's coming up tomorrow on "AMERICAN MORNING".
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KIRAN CHETRY, CO-HOST, "AMERICAN MORNING": Tomorrow, we bring you the most news in the morning, including a new fight for your rights when you fly.
The people behind the Passenger Bill of Rights have taken their battle to the National Mall in Washington. And we're going to spend some time inside of their makeshift airplane that mimics the conditions, like the smells and sounds that passengers stuck on planes have to endure. See if the idea gets them anywhere.
It's tomorrow, "AMERICAN MORNING". It all begins at 6 a.m. Eastern.
Anderson, back to you.
COOPER: Up next, the O.J. Simpson case in black and white. Will another trial divide the country again?
Also, is he guilty or innocent? We're not talking about O.J. but this man. The murder trial of Phil Spector takes a stunning turn as the jurors drop a bombshell on the judge. Stay tuned.
COOPER: Busy day for O.J. Simpson. Fourth suspect, 49-year-old Michael McClinton from Las Vegas, has turned himself in. His charges were filed. We just got that photo of him in. It's the first time we're seeing him.
One count in all, including -- 11 counts in all, I should say, including first-degree kidnapping, robbery and assault with a deadly weapon.
Simpson himself is going to appear tomorrow in court.
Joining me now to talk more about the case is sports and entertainment attorney Ryan Smith, host of BET's "My Two Cents", and also Jeffrey Toobin, as well.
Ryan, do you think this case has the potential, as the first murder case did, to divide the country along racial lines?
RYAN SMITH, ATTORNEY/BET HOST: Absolutely. It's not only racial. It's also the disenfranchised, the people who feel like they don't get proper representation. Because this looks more and more like a setup.
It looks more and more like a situation where he's walking into this thing that someone's planning, and he gets in this bad situation. A little bit less like he's the planner or the ringleader. And a lot of folks are going to say, "You know what? We've been in this situation before, or felt like we could be in this situation. And it's happening to him."
COOPER: And is the thought that the law enforcement system is out to get payback, is out to, you know, get something on O.J. Simpson?
SMITH: It's -- I think it's more of a theory of not so much the law enforcement, but somebody can be out to get someone else, and you can be subject to great prosecution, or you can be subject to 30 or so years in prison. And that makes not only -- I don't think it's just racial lines, but also the disenfranchised feel as if, you know what? That could be me sitting in that situation.
COOPER: Jeff, the more details that do come out -- and as you pointed out, earlier, we haven't heard from the government yet, haven't heard the government's full case or anything. But from these, you know, kind of not so reputable folks who are out there involved in all of this, the term "setup" does, you know, come into play more and more.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Right. It does look like a problematic case on the part of the government.
I'm not so sure that this case will be seen as an effort to hurt the disenfranchised or divide the country along racial lines. I think -- I think just more simply, it may be an attempt -- be seen as an attempt to get O.J. Simpson for -- for another crime when they couldn't get him for the real crime that he was committed -- that many people think he committed, which was the double murder.
I really don't think this case will have much great political significance, but the Las Vegas authorities better get their ducks in a row or this case is not going to end in a conviction.
COOPER: Really? Why do you say that?
TOOBIN: Well, because they've got to have witnesses who will present a coherent story of why O.J. Simpson committed a crime and why the very large number of other people who were there with him did not commit a crime.
And why are some of those people getting immunity? Riccio, after all, is the guy who told Simpson where to go. Simpson had no idea where this room is. It was Riccio who delivered him to the room. Riccio gets immunity.
Another defendant goes out on his own recognizance, no bail at all. Simpson's rotting in jail, not even getting any bail.
SMITH: This Riccio guy, I think Jeff is exactly right. He is -- first of all, he's recording their conversations beforehand. Then he's recording the entire situation.
Then earlier this week -- or sorry, last week he's Simpson's friend. Now he's turning on the other side of it. We heard about an hour ago him say, "I really don't care if people care about my credibility."
If you're basing your case on this man, you've got a very bad case. He just does not seem credible at all. And that's not even counting his previous convictions. This is a person who previously escaped from prison. You know, and that's just the beginning of it.
There are so many conflicting accounts here. Riccio versus Beardsley, all the other witnesses that are in here.
COOPER: You think O.J. Simpson will likely get bail tomorrow?
SMITH: I think he'll get bail, absolutely.
COOPER: Jeff, do you agree with that? TOOBIN: Absolutely, particularly because the case is shaping up to be a little weaker than it looked like. One of the things the judge looks at when deciding whether to grant bail is how strong the case is.
If there's a videotape of you committing a murder, there's much less chance of you getting bail than if it's a he said/she said situation, and that's what this case appears to be, at best.
COOPER: Jeff Toobin, appreciate it.
Ryan Smith, great to have you on the program again. Thanks very much, guys.
Up next, 360 is back. The senator caught in a bathroom sex sting shows up for work on Capitol Hill. What's his plan? Find out, tonight on "Raw Politics".
COOPER: Well, this won't come as a shock to you, but the world will continue to spin with or without O.J. Simpson, and so will "Raw Politics".
Yesterday, Senator Clinton unveiled her health care reform plan. Today, her rival, Barack Obama, promised tax cuts.
Tom Foreman has the "Raw Politics."
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Barack Obama is hoping to rise in the polls, with classic Democratic "Raw Politics": take from the rich and give to the poor.
(voice-over) The Obamarama has unveiled a tax reform plan that could make Robin Hood proud. Included, a tax cut for about half the country's working families, a tax credit for homeowners who do not itemize deductions, and no income tax for seniors who make less than $50,000 a year.
He says he'll pay for it by dumping Bush tax cut for the wealthy and squeezing corporations.
SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: At a time when Americans are working harder than ever, we are taxing income from work at nearly twice the levels that we're taxing gains for investors.
FOREMAN: We've got new polls! Our new numbers on the economy show slightly more than half of you think it's good, a little less than half think it's bad.
On the war, a CBS poll says all the debate has changed nothing. Public support still very weak.
The values vote may be vulnerable. The four top Republican candidates skipped a forum in Florida with religious conservatives. The sponsors protested by asking questions to empty podiums placed amid the candidates who did appear.
Senator Larry "Watch Your Feet" Craig is back in the Capitol.
TED BARRETT, CNN PRODUCER: Are you intending to vote today, sir?
SEN. LARRY CRAIG (R), IDAHO: That's my plan.
BARRETT: Why did you decide to come back today?
CRAIG: Because I'm a serving United States senator from Idaho.
FOREMAN: Well, for now.
And a Nebraska state senator is suing God for acts of mayhem, death and natural destruction. He says he's showing that anyone can sue about anything.
(on camera) The "Raw" read from the heavens, God is considering a countersuit, but he can't find any lawyers -- Anderson.
COOPER: Tom, thanks.
Don't miss "Raw Politics", the day's headlines with a 360 daily podcast. You don't need an iPod. You can watch it on your computer at CNN.com/AC360podcast. Or check it out at the iTunes store where it's a top download right now.
Still ahead, new developments in the O.J. Simpson case, including new charges that could send him to prison for life.
Ahead, a celebrity trial with a bomb shell. What the jury has said that has Phil Spector's attorneys pushing for a mistrial.
And you've probably seen the video by now, a college student tasered at a Q&A session with John Kerry. The fallout as 360 continues.
COOPER: We'll have more on the O.J. Simpson armed robbery case ahead or the alleged armed robbery case. Plus "The Shot" of the day. Not what you want to see in your backyard: three bears in your hammock. Yikes!
First Erica Hill joins us with the "360 News and Business Bulletin" -- Erica.
ERICA HILL, HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR: Anderson, after more than a week of deliberations, the jury in the murder trial of music producer Phil Spector is deadlocked. The foreman says the panel is split 7-5 after four votes but didn't say which way it's leaning. The judge has denied a defense request for a mistrial.
Spector is accused of killing B-movie actress Lana Clarkson in his California mansion in February of 2003.
St. George, Utah, prosecutors arrest their case against polygamist sect leader Warren Jeffs. He is accused of being an accomplice to rape for allegedly setting up the marriage of a 14-year- old follower to her cousin.
Prosecutors called just three witnesses, the woman, who's now 21, and her two sisters. Today, the defense argued the case should be dismissed. The judge denied that motion.
On Wall Street, stocks soaring after the Federal Reserve cut a short-term interest rate by a half percentage point to 4.75 percent. And that's a move in response to the mortgage meltdown.
The Dow gained 335 points. That is the biggest one-day jump in nearly five years. The NASDAQ added 70. The S&P picked up 43 points.
At the University of Florida, two campus cops have been placed on leave pending an investigation after using a taser gun to arrest a student at a Q&A session with Senator John Kerry.
The student, Andrew Meyer, was released from jail this morning. Cops tasered him after he loudly and repeatedly tried to ask questions at the forum, Anderson.
COOPER: And he kept saying, "Don't taser me, bro."
HILL: I know.
HILL: You think it was the "bro" that -- well, never mind.
COOPER: I don't know. You know, I don't know. If someone called me bro, maybe I'd want to taser them.
HILL: You think?
HILL: Really, bro? What's wrong with that, bro? I mean, we're cool, right?
COOPER: Yes, dude.
COOPER: Yes. Yes.
Oh, it's my turn, isn't it? HILL: It is your turn.
COOPER: Yes. I was wondering what...
HILL: Do you have a "Shot of the Day" or something?
COOPER: I've got to tell you, I am so doped up on Theraflu I don't know whether I'm coming or going.
HILL: Oh, no.
COOPER: "The Shot of the Day", Mama Bear, Papa Bear and Baby Bear looking for a little R&R in a hammock in Highland Lakes, New Jersey. Oh, those kooky bears.
HILL: Aren't they wacky? Stuck in the hammock, poor guy.
COOPER: The other one's trying to rock the other one. I mean, bears -- I could look at this all day.
HILL: You could.
COOPER: The woman who owns the hammock shot the video. She's used to seeing bears, because she lives in the woods, obviously, but she doesn't like them using her stuff. At one point she actually growls at them to try to make them leave.
HILL: She growls?
HILL: Interesting. And the woman who lives in the woods, is her name Goldilocks?
COOPER: I don't know.
COOPER: She lives in her grandmother's house.
HILL: Right. Well, I see your cute bears on a hammock, Anderson Cooper, and I will raise you "Dramatic Animal Video" of a bear.
COOPER: Oh, it's an oldie.
HILL: On a trampoline.
HILL: It never gets old. That shot of the bear lying on the ground, is that kind of how you feel right now, the Theraflu?
COOPER: It is. Yes. It's the Theraflu. Have you had the Theraflu?
HILL: It will knock you out. COOPER: Man. Woof. Yes.
Hey, good luck with the rest of the show, bro.
COOPER: I'm feeling no pain. No problem, bro.
COOPER: I want you to send us your "Shot" ideas. If you find some great videos with some bears in a hammock, tell us about it: CNN.com/360. But don't approach the bears, please. We'll put some of the best clips on the air.
Up next, as O.J. gets ready to head to court tomorrow, several new developments tonight out of Vegas, a new arrest, a criminal complaint file, new pictures and more. We'll cover all the angles as 360 continues.
COOPER: On the eve of his arraignment, the criminal complaint against O.J. Simpson is filed, accusing him of 11 counts, including a new charge, kidnapping.
Also tonight, a fourth suspect arrested. More arrests may be pending. One eyewitness says there were as many as seven men in O.J. Simpson's group in that hotel room in Vegas. Just some of the latest developments in a day of stunning new details and accusations.
A co-defendant says Simpson was set up. That claim centers on the man who recorded the alleged armed robbery, a man, as you'll see tonight, has a long rap sheet and questionable motives.
We'll also look at the big business of sports memorabilia. We'll talk with Mike Gilbert, Simpson's former licensing agent, a man who admits he helped Simpson hide money from going to the family of Ron Goldman and Simpson's murdered wife, a man who Simpson believes stole his merchandise.
Let's begin with the latest. A fourth suspect in the Simpson alleged armed robbery case turned himself into police just hours ago.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.voxant.com