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Fred Thompson Makes Debate Debut; New Details Revealed in Airport Death

Aired October 9, 2007 - 22:00   ET


ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Two encounters with police to talk about tonight, one deadly, neither cut and dry, both raising troubling questions.
Exactly how Carol Anne Gotbaum died while in police custody remains a mystery. But, tonight, we have new exclusive details about her final moments in a Phoenix airport.

And, for the first time, you are going to hear from her husband about why he thinks her death could have been prevented. That's only on CNN.

Also tonight, an arrest in Florida turning ugly and caught on tape. The suspect, a teenager, weighs all of 90 pounds. She bit the police officer. He punched her. His boss is OK with that. Tonight, we will talk with experts about both of these cases and let you decide whether any lines were crossed.

Plus, a long-awaited debut for a veteran actor and Republican presidential candidate Fred Thompson. So, how did he do in today's debate? And what does he really bring to the race? We will examine all those issues.

We begin with a CNN exclusive, new details about the final minutes of Carol Anne Gotbaum life. The 44 -- 5 -- 40 -- excuse me -- 45-year-old wife and mother of three died in a police holding cell at a Phoenix airport last month.

Now, police arrested her after she missed her flight and went into a rage. Gotbaum was on her way to an alcohol treatment program and was traveling alone. Her funeral was held this weekend in New York. Hundreds attended.

And CNN has obtained an exclusive audiotape of her husband's eulogy, with her family's permission.

I just spoke with CNN's Alina Cho.


COOPER: So, Alina, you have an exclusive report on the investigation. What you have learned?

ALINA CHO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the most interesting thing, Anderson, that we have learned is that the medical examiner, the same woman who performed the autopsy on Carol Anne Gotbaum, essentially went into the same holding cell where she died and -- and tried to recreate the scene.

She had officers handcuff her, shackle her, even secure her to a bench, put herself in the same position. And she was able to do this, interestingly enough, because she was about the same size as Gotbaum.

COOPER: And -- and there's the question about whether or not she was drunk at the time of her arrest. The toxicology reports have not been made public.

CHO: They haven't.

From what we understand, from our source, when those toxicology reports come back, several weeks from now, they will show that there was indeed alcohol in her system. Now, we have also learned from our source -- and this is very interesting -- that Carol Anne Gotbaum arrived at Phoenix Airport entirely sober.

COOPER: And how do they know that?

CHO: Our source tells us she sent a series of e-mails. She made a series of phone calls. And she was -- quote -- "entirely lucid."

Now, here's where the timeline comes in. Forty-six minutes before the flight, she apparently left the gate, went to a sports bar at the airport, by all accounts, had something to eat, likely had a few drinks.

Now, she went back to the gate one minute after final boarding was over, and she was told that her seat had been given away.

COOPER: And it's been -- when we look at that video of her initially, before the police get involved, where she's running down the -- the aisle, you know, yelling and screaming, initially, it was reported that it was the -- the fact that she didn't get on that first flight is what set her off. But you have found that that is actually not the case.

CHO: That's right.

Now, make no mistake. She was angry that she couldn't make that connection, but that's not what put her into a tailspin, according to our source. Basically, there's -- there's more to the story. She tried desperately to get onto this second flight about an hour-and-a- half later. That flight was also overbooked.

It's been reported that a man kindly offered up his seat to her, but she was told that she couldn't do that for security reasons. It would be a -- quote, unquote -- "security breach." And that explains something that a lot of people were wondering about.

COOPER: Why she was saying she's not a terrorist.

CHO: That's right, why she was yelling and screaming: "I'm not a terrorist." COOPER: Interesting.

CHO: "I'm a sick mom," right.

COOPER: So, it came from -- from the -- the flight -- from the gate agent saying, it would be a security breach if I allow you on this flight.

CHO: A security breach, that's right, for someone to give up their seat and for her to take it.

COOPER: And Carol Anne Gotbaum's funeral was on Sunday. I know you have obtained an exclusive copy of audio from the funeral.

CHO: And we should make clear to our viewers, Anderson, that we obtained this audiotape with husband Noah Gotbaum's blessing.

Now, it was an emotional ceremony, the funeral.

COOPER: Yes. I have read -- I mean, it just sounds so devastating.

CHO: From all accounts, it was.

You know, he remembered his wife of 12 years as a loving mother, but he also became very passionate when he talked about how he thought her death could have been prevented.


NOAH GOTBAUM, HUSBAND OF CAROL ANNE GOTBAUM: If the airline or the police authorities had treated Carol with some modicum of sensitivity and grace, or one single person at that airport had put an arm around her shoulder, sat her down, and given her some protection, she might still be with us today.


CHO: And we have also learned, interestingly enough, Anderson, that the Gotbaum family is still waiting to get back some of Carol Anne Gotbaum's effects, among them, her BlackBerry. Of course, investigators will want to take a close look at that.

But, on a much more personal level, they are also waiting for her wedding ring. You know, as you know, when people are arrested, police begin to immediately remove personal items.


CHO: And we have learned that Carol Anne Gotbaum's wedding ring was the one item she fought most to keep.

COOPER: It's such a bizarre story, still a lot to learn.

Alina Cho, appreciate the exclusive report.

CHO: You bet.

COOPER: Thanks.


COOPER: So, what happened to Carol Anne Gotbaum is raising many questions, including whether the officers who arrested her could have defused the situation and calmed her down before actually handcuffing her.

Now, in a moment, we are going to talk to experts about what -- they -- the way they handled the situation. But we are also going to get their take on this police encounter. It happened in Fort Pierce, Florida. A dash camera captured the moment, the officer trying to arrest this 15-year-old girl for violating the town's curfew, after he found her with a bag of clothes that appeared to be stolen.

Now, take a look at how things play out. I want to warn you, listening to it is disturbing.


SHELWANDA RILEY, 15 YEARS OLD: I'm sorry, sir, but I'm not doing anything! So (INAUDIBLE) Ow!


RILEY: I'm sorry, sir. I didn't do anything! My eyes!


COOPER: The police officer said the teenager bit his arm before he punched her and pulled out the pepper spray.

He's also at least twice her size. The girl has pleaded not guilty to resisting arrest. The city's police chief told a local newspaper that his officer acted properly.

Joining me now, Pierce Murphy, past president of the National Association for Civilian Oversight of Law Enforcement, and also Mike Worley, a former police chief who now runs his own company, Police Practices Consulting.

Pierce, I want to start with you. It's tough to judge from -- from one videotape. Hard to tell if the punch the officer gave was a reaction to getting bitten or attempt to subdue. Does it matter?

PIERCE MURPHY, FORMER PRESIDENT, NATIONAL ASSOCIATION FOR CIVILIAN OVERSIGHT OF LAW ENFORCEMENT: Well, I think it does matter, particularly because a punch is appropriate if it's used to stun someone and stop them from doing something that they are doing, maybe hurting an officer.

If the punch, however, is in retaliation, then that's a very different matter. COOPER: Mike, the pepper spray, in your opinion, was that necessary?

Mike, in your opinion, the pepper spray, was that necessary?


It was -- he had -- the officer had gone to great lengths to explain the situation to her, to ask her, by my count, 15 times to put her hands behind her back. She continued to resist. And, after the biting, I think it was appropriate at that time to -- to escalate the reaction of the officer to take her into custody.

And I would also note that, whether it was intentional or not, he did not spray her directly in the face. It appears that he misted the spray in front of her, which would have a less direct effect than a direct facial spray.

COOPER: I want both of to you to just hold on. We are going to have more to cover just after this short break, including another tape that is causing an outcry, this one involving a Taser that -- take a look.






COOPER: The police officer repeatedly Tasering a woman. We are going to talk about that, as well as Carol Anne Gotbaum.

We're back in 60 seconds.



GILROY: Get your hand behind your back. Miss, I don't want to force you, because you're small, but you need to listen to what I'm going to say. Put your hand behind your back.

RILEY: I don't want to go to jail. No.

GILROY: Put your hand behind your back. Put your other hand behind your back. Don't resist me.


COOPER: We pick up with Pierce Murphy, past president of the National Association for Civilian Oversight of Law Enforcement, and also Mike Worley, a former police chief who now runs his own company, Police Practices Consulting.

Pierce, you say that one of the questions we have to ask when looking at a tape like this is whether or not the situation could have been avoided.

MURPHY: Exactly.

I think that's a very important question. One of the things you note in this tape is, you have a single officer trying to take this girl into custody. And, for about 25 seconds, he struggles with her. I think one of the things is, why didn't he use some other tactic, when, clearly, what he was using wasn't working?

COOPER: What other kind of tactic?

MURPHY: Well, for instance, he didn't have good leverage on her. And one thing that police are trained to do is, if someone starts resisting in an upright position, is to get them down on the ground. Then, you can avoid the injury and may not have had to use the force he did.

COOPER: Mike, of course, you know, hindsight, it's easy to say these kinds of things. What is your perspective? Should he have used a different technique?

WORLEY: You can always make that argument.

However, it is a fairly common practice to place somebody over the hood of a car, as he was doing. He was also very cognizant of the camera and keeping a record of this thing going, which would not have occurred if they had gone to the ground.

COOPER: I want to play also this -- this other tape of a woman in Ohio who is repeatedly Tasered, and get both of your perspectives.

We will just play some of this. Again, it is disturbing to watch.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hands behind your back.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hands behind your back!




(END VIDEO CLIP) COOPER: Mike, it is -- this woman is repeatedly Tasered. She gets in the back of police car. She kicks out the back window. She's Tasered in the back again. What do you make of this? I mean, does this make sense to you?

WORLEY: This entire incident causes me some great concern.

The purpose of a Taser is to immobilize an individual to take them into custody, and nothing more than that. It is not something that is to be used in a retaliatory manner or in a punitive manner. And, at least at first grasp, that appears what may be happening on this tape. And it certainly needs to be fully investigated.

COOPER: Pierce, what is your perspective on the tape?

MURPHY: Well, I certainly agree with Mike that this needs to be fully investigated. The issues he raised are good.

I think one of the things that is important to note is, Tasers can be very effective. They also can be very dangerous. And, so, they are not to be used lightly. And, in this case, as in others, I think the review and investigation by someone other than law enforcement, in addition to the police, is a really good idea.

COOPER: Pierce Murphy, we appreciate your perspective, Mike Worley, your expertise as well. Thank you, guys.

Now the most anticipated presidential candidate of election '08 makes his first debating debating -- Fred Thompson's performance in just 60 seconds.

We will be right back.


COOPER: Republican candidates in Dearborn, just outside Detroit debating this evening -- the spotlight on actor and former Senator Fred Thompson, taking part in his first debate since entering the race. He got the first question tonight.

To some, of course, he's the dream candidate, Ronald Reagan reincarnated. Others think he just doesn't have the drive to be president. And he hasn't been knocking them dead on the campaign trail.

Tonight was his first chance to show people he wants the job and, more importantly, that he has got what it takes to do the job. So, the question is, how did he do?

We're going to explore that in a moment with Ed Rollins, who has helped one man, Ronald Reagan, get elected. We will also dig deeper into who Fred Thompson really is.

But, first, his somewhat shaky start tonight at the debate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) FRED THOMPSON, REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We're enjoying low inflation. We're enjoying low unemployment. The stock market seems to be doing pretty well. I see no reason to believe we're headed for an economic downturn.

As far as the economic prosperity of the future is concerned, I think it's a different story.


COOPER: Well, he loosened up a lot after that. Again, we're going to talk more about how he did shortly.

Before we get into it, though, CNN's Joe Johns has a look at how Fred Thompson got here.


JOE JOHNS, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Remember this night? While all of the official candidates were in New Hampshire at the debate, Fred Thompson took to Jay Leno's national stage to declare his candidacy.


THOMPSON: I'm running for president of the United States.


JAY LENO, HOST, "THE TONIGHT SHOW WITH JAY LENO": All right. There you have it, ladies and gentlemen.


JOHNS: It was a moment conservatives had been waiting for. And now many are saying it was the highest point of his candidacy. So far, it's been a letdown.

It was like Ronald Reagan all over again: a conservative white knight, an actor, a familiar face, and a telegenic wife. For many, it was as if conservatives had found another great communicator.

RALPH REED, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: In politics, you know, any time you set expectations that high, sometimes, when you finally come out of the chute, there's a letdown.

JOHNS: What went wrong, so far, anyway? First, there was the campaign's now infamous rough rollout, where nothing seemed to go right, a revolving door of top campaign aides and misstatements, leading some to question whether Thompson, who got into the race so late, was ready for the presidential prime time, or if he was ill- prepared, unfocused, even lazy.

AMY WALTER, EDITOR IN CHIEF, "THE HOTLINE": He went on a national tour and seemed very out of touch about local issues. So, at every step, it looks like this is somebody who still has not figured out the details, when everybody else has been on the trail for a long time. They could make those mistakes early on. He can't afford them.

JOHNS: His strategy, to capture the hearts of conservatives, didn't go as planned. When core Republican voters took a hard look at Thompson's conservative credentials, they found some weak spots. One of the latest big things for conservatives is support of a constitutional amendment defining marriage as between a man and a woman. Thompson says he thinks the amendment needs to be rewritten, targeted at activist judges who rewrite the laws from the bench.

That didn't go over well. One of the leading conservatives, James Dobson, wrote of Thompson: "He has no passion, no zeal, and no apparent 'want to.' And, yet, he is apparently the Great Hope that burns in the breasts of many conservative Christians. Well, not for me, my brothers, not for me."

REED: For social conservatives, and for Senator Thompson, I think this is a chasm that they are going to have to figure out a way to bridge, because this is not an insubstantial difference of opinion.

JOHNS: The reality is that the unflinching prosecutor he plays on TV is just a role in a show. Now everyone will have a chance to judge the real man, that is, if it's not too late to get the true picture.

MARIA BARTIROMO, MODERATOR: Do you regret waiting so long?

THOMPSON: No. I don't think I waited too long. It seems about right to me.


JOHNS: Joe Johns, CNN, Washington.


COOPER: Up next, Ed Rollins, a top GOP strategist, takes a look at Fred Thompson with us, also at tonight's debate and the fire that is burning between two top candidates. We will get to all of that after a short break.



MITT ROMNEY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You know, I have come to know these people now over these debates. Is this our sixth debate, I think -- something like that? And this has a lot -- this is a lot like "Law & Order," Senator.




ROMNEY: It -- no, it has a huge cast. The series seems to go on forever...


ROMNEY: ... and Fred Thompson...

MATTHEWS: Senator?

ROMNEY: ... shows up at the end.


MATTHEWS: Senator...

THOMPSON: And to think I thought I was going to be the best actor on the stage.



COOPER: Fred Thompson there wrapping up his debut tonight in Dearborn, Michigan, as a presidential debater.

Back during Watergate, when Thompson was counsel to Senate Republicans investigating the White House, Richard Nixon was caught on one of his tapes saying -- quote -- "He is dumb as hell," Fred Thompson. Of course, Thompson came out of Watergate a bit better than Mr. Nixon.

Yet, people have been either underestimating or overestimating him ever since, sort of like Ronald Reagan. And now he's being hailed as the next Ronald Reagan by some.

Republican strategist Ed Rollins helped make Mr. Reagan president. He's been watching the Thompson campaign, watching the debate with us tonight.

What did you think?

ED ROLLINS, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I thought he started slow. I thought he did better as the -- as the night went on.

It was sort of like he -- he's like a miler and some of them are sprinters. They had been through six debates. Giuliani and obviously Romney knew exactly what they want to do, go beat each other up. And I think, as it went on, he got a little better.


COOPER: Did he know his stuff? Or was his slowness off the start just the...

ROLLINS: I -- I think he's had a...

COOPER: ... strangeness of being in one of these?

ROLLINS: I think he had a lot of things jammed into his head.

You know, he's been out of the Senate for a number of years. And these guys are very current because they have been campaigning for a long period of time. But there was no mistakes. I mean, I think, at the end of the day, he didn't lose any of his supporters. And the critical thing about debates is, you seldom add, but you oftentimes can lose. I don't think he lost anybody.

COOPER: But he didn't necessarily gain any...


ROLLINS: He didn't gain any. He didn't hit the home run. He wasn't -- he wasn't -- he isn't Ronald Reagan. I mean, let's not...

COOPER: Right.

ROLLINS: That's not fair to him or to Ronald Reagan. Ronald Reagan was a very polished speaker who had spent a long time developing his positions and had run for president twice before he was elected president. And, you know, Fred's been in this business a couple months now.

COOPER: In some ways, I mean, I always thought there would be no way for him to go up from where he was, at least initially, I mean, that, you know, there was so much sort of hype and expectation, and people could kind of create him to be whatever they wanted him to be.

But, when he actually got in the campaign, and started, you know, outlining his positions, it would be hard for him to not alienate some people.

ROLLINS: He -- he jumped into a base which is sort of the anti- Giuliani conservatives wanting someone else.

COOPER: Right.

ROLLINS: Gigantic base. I mean, mine 25, above, percent of the Republican base. And I think, to a certain extent, he has disappointed some of them, because he's not been quite as exciting as they thought he would be, and his campaign has not been quite as effective.

But I think -- I think he's gaining ground. And I think, to a certain extent, he's not losing ground. And that's the critical thing here.

COOPER: You mentioned the -- between Romney and Giuliani. I want to play some of their exchange today.


RUDOLPH GIULIANI (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I brought taxes down by 17 percent. Under him, taxes went up 11 percent per capita. I led; he lagged.

ROMNEY: It's baloney.

Mayor, you have got to check your facts. No taxes -- I did not increase taxes in Massachusetts. I lowered taxes.


COOPER: Is this now, things are changing, so we are going to see more of this, of them going more at one another?


But whoever ever thought you would see a governor of Massachusetts and a mayor of New York City arguing about who is more right-wing and who cut more services and cut taxes more?


ROLLINS: And that's where we are. You know, I think -- I think that's how they basically establish their credentials. And I think, to a certain extent, Giuliani realizes he has to be more than a very effective leader on 9/11. I think he's trying to basically go back and remind people of what he did in the city.

COOPER: And how real is this threat by some Christian conservatives that, if Giuliani gets the nod, they will bring in an independent candidate?

ROLLINS: I think they will be unhappy. But the critical thing here is, who is going to be that nominee? If it's someone like Mike Huckabee, then certainly -- certainly he can draw some serious...

COOPER: Do you think, still, he has a shot? I mean, people -- there are a lot of people talking about him.

ROLLINS: Mike Huckabee is a very, very serious candidate. He doesn't have the resources to basically make it to the finals, but he's a very serious candidate, and I think will be one of the three or four in the end here.

And he's not going to go run as a third party. But the third party needs someone of significance in order to draw 3, 4, 10 percent away. If someone runs, just as -- as Gore found out with Nader, you know, and they draw a certain percentage away, then it makes it very difficult to win.

COOPER: I wish we had more time to talk about Ron Paul, who I think is just fascinating, raised $5 million, as much as John McCain.


ROLLINS: He's the -- he's the anti-establishment Republican candidate.

COOPER: Who knew?

Next time you're on, we will talk about him. ROLLINS: Thank you very much.

COOPER: Ed, thanks for being with us.

ROLLINS: My -- my pleasure.

COOPER: Like the Democrats, the Republican candidates are looking past the primaries, focusing on potential general election opponents.

But it seems as if they have already named the Democratic nominee. They have. Here's the "Raw Data."

Senator Hillary Clinton was mentioned by name 11 times in tonight's debate, seven times by Mr. Giuliani, four times by Mitt Romney. So, how many other times were the others candidates criticized? The answer is zero, no Barack Obama, no John Edwards. Joe Biden's name was briefly mentioned, but actually in a positive light.

One other quick note: some pictures just into CNN. It is -- I'm seeing these for the first time. That is Michelle Obama's campaign van. The accident happened in Hampton, Iowa. The motorcyclist who collided with the van was hurt. Ms. Obama and company -- Mrs. Obama and company were not hurt. Let's emphasize that.

Up next: A confessed child kidnapper, Michael Devlin -- Remember him, the former pizzeria manager? -- admits how he terrorized a teenager -- his chilling words when 360 continues.


COOPER: Let's get a quick check of the headlines with Erica Hill in a 360 bulletin -- Erica.

ERICA HILL, HEADLINE NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, more guilty pleas today for Michael Devlin. The former pizza manager told a Missouri judge he attempted to kill Shawn Hornbeck, who he kidnapped and held captive for more than four years. But Devlin says the boy persuaded him not to do it. Devlin received multiple life sentences. Yesterday, he pleaded to kidnapping another boy, pleaded guilty.

Washington State now, about 25 miles southeast of Mount Rainier, where searchers have found the bodies of all 10 people aboard a plane that crashed on its way home from a skydiving event. Investigators say it appears the Cessna hit the ground at 70 miles per hour. The cause of Sunday's crash is under investigation.

And, in L.A., actor Kiefer Sutherland had pleaded no contest to DUI. His lawyer actually did it on his behalf. Sutherland wasn't in court. Sentencing is set for December 21, and he could face up to a year in jail.

COOPER: I -- I don't get it, why people drive drunk. It's so stupid.

HILL: It really is. I would advise hiring a driver. But there we go.

That's -- that's another segment, Anderson.

COOPER: There you go.

HILL: Instead, we're going to move now to the segment of "What Were They Thinking?" which is crazy, surveillance video from Salem, New Hampshire, home of my godparents.

Police there say a woman is using a boy who appears to be as young as 6 years old to steal coin donation jars from store counters. They are charity -- charity jars here. The two cans were stolen from a liquor store. The cash was supposed to go to Mothers Against Drunk Driving, speaking of.

The cops are still looking for the woman, who now has a lot of change apparently wearing down her purse. Investigators she could actually face a year in prison if convicted of theft and endangering a child.

Nice to make the kid do your dirty work.

COOPER: Man, that poor kid. It's like the woman like a week ago or two ago who had the kid go under to steal a purse.

HILL: Exactly, at the casino.

COOPER: Unbelievable.

Erica, thanks.

Now here's John Roberts with what's coming up tomorrow on "AMERICAN MORNING."



Tomorrow, we bring you the most news in the morning, including a new kind of vigilante. She's so outraged over people who park in handicap spots when they are not disabled, that she set up an online sting, and it doesn't end there. We will meet her on "AMERICAN MORNING."

It all starts at 6:00 a.m. Eastern. See you then -- Anderson.



Up next on 360: inside the billion-dollar body parts industry. And we are not talking about cars. Our cameras were there when a man nicknamed Frankenstein turned himself in. Hard to believe. The crimes he's accused of sound like something out of a horror movie -- the reality next.


COOPER: If you need an organ or tissue transplant, and thousands of Americans do, would you want it to be riddled with cancer or syphilis or HIV? When a loved one dies, would you want the funeral home to strip the body, with no one's permission, and then put the parts up for sale?

Tonight you're going to meet a man accused of doing just that. You're going to learn about the operation he allegedly ran. The specifics may stun you. The investigation reached a climax today.

CNN's Randi Kaye is "Keeping Them Honest".


RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is the man accused of being at the heart of an all but unthinkable crime. He's nicknamed Frankenstein.

Today in Philadelphia, Michael Mastromarino, owner of Biomedical Tissue Services, turned himself in on charges of illegally stripping corpses of bone and tissue, to sell it all in the body parts business, a billion-dollar industry worldwide.

Authorities say skin and bones were illegally harvested. Funeral homes turned into butcher shops.

LYNNE ABRAHAM, PHILADELPHIA DISTRICT ATTORNEY: This group of men and others couldn't and wouldn't permit the dead to go to their graves with a shred of dignity.

KAYE: Last week, three Philadelphia funeral directors were also charged. None have pled yet. Investigators say funeral directors supplied the bodies. Mastromarino harvested the tissue, then sold it to tissue banks in hospitals around the world.

WENDY KOGUT, DANETTE KOGUT'S SISTER: I just feel like they raped my sister and they violated her.

KAYE: Wendy Kogut's sister was one of more than 1,000 corpses investigators say were harvested, many of them illegally. Even more alarming, her tissue was diseased and could make others sick.

(on camera) Could your sister have been an organ donor or a tissue donor?

KOGUT: No, because she had cancer. And you can't be an organ donor when you have cancer.

KAYE (voice-over): Danette Kogut died of ovarian cancer. Before cremation, Wendy Kogut said somebody stole her sister's leg and pelvic bones, even her skin.

(on camera) Did your client for any reason, ever illegally harvest any tissues?


KAYE (voice-over): Attorney Mario Gallucci represents Mastromarino, who's already pled not guilty to similar charges in New York. That's where the scheme was discovered years ago, when new owners of this funeral home noticed bones in some bodies had been replaced with plumber's pipe.

Seven funeral directors in New York have pled guilty and fingered Mastromarino.

In Philadelphia, a grand jury indicted Mastromarino after finding he falsified paperwork, in some cases, altering the cause of death or the age of the deceased to make it seem tissues were healthy.

GALLUCCI: You can indict anything. You can indict a ham sandwich. That's what the problem is with a grand jury.

KAYE: Gallucci says his client is the victim of unscrupulous funeral directors. Yet, prosecutor says Mastromarino knowingly forged donor forms and medical records to conceal the truth.

Danette Kogut's cause of death is listed as blunt trauma, not ovarian cancer, and it's signed by her grandfather, who had been dead for 30 years.

(on camera) Gallucci says his client only inspected the bodies at the funeral home's request and collected tissue to be tested. He insists it was the processors who determined what tissue was viable for sale and says the funeral directors, not Mastromarino, filled out all the paperwork.

Mastromarino denies allowing diseased tissue to be sold and transplanted into unsuspecting patients.

(voice-over) Patients like Robbie Zappa of Georgia.

ROBBIE ZAPPA, RECEIVED STOLEN TISSUE: I think they ought to be charged with attempted murder on all of us.

KAYE: After neck surgery, Zappa received this letter, warning bad bone tissue from New York may have been implanted during the operation. Doctors urged him to get tested immediately for hepatitis, syphilis, even HIV, the virus that causes AIDS.

ZAPPA: That little thing that looks like a finger right there in the middle of it, that's the bone tissue.

KAYE: Now, because of the body parts stolen in New York, Zappa must get tested regularly for years.

ZAPPA: They didn't care if they killed anybody. They just wanted the money.

KAYE: Prosecutors say Mastromarino made more than $4.5 million. But only by committing ghastly crimes that may now come back to haunt him. Randi Kaye, CNN, New York.


COOPER: It's hard to believe.

Up next, inside the mind of a teenager who became a killer. How D.C. Sniper Lee Malvo remembers his crimes and a surprising phone call he made to the daughter of one of his victims, next.


COOPER: The fear that gripped the Washington area. People afraid to pump gas or walk across a parking lot. Killers were on the loose, so-called snipers who struck at any time of day, choosing victims seemingly indiscriminately.

Ten people were killed.

It has been five years now, and we're just beginning to learn about the two murderers, Lee Boyd Malvo and John Allen Muhammad. In a CNN special investigation tomorrow night at 8 p.m. Eastern, Soledad O'Brien goes inside the minds of the D.C. Snipers, in part by talking with those who knew them best. Take a look.


CARMETA ALBARUS LINDO, MALVO CONFIDANTE: Lee will not -- never forgive himself for what has -- has happened. He just hopes that, through his writings, through his drawings, people will understand this.

I believe that a monstrous thing that John Muhammad created when he had him, spotting while he shot from the car, I think that thing no longer exists.


COOPER: Our next guest, Cheryll Witz, personally received an apology from Lee Boyd Malvo. Malvo admitted to killing her father in Tucson, California. That was seven months before the murder spree began in the Washington area.

Last month, through an arrangement set up by a TV news producer, Malvo gave her a phone call. I talked with her earlier about that experience.


COOPER: When you first heard his voice, what was that like?

CHERYLL WITZ, DAUGHTER OF SNIPER VICTIM: I was very nervous. I was very nervous, because you can't really tell if somebody is really showing any emotion or anything when they're on the other side. And he could hardly speak at first. And he's very low spoken, so I could hardly understand him. COOPER: And what was it that he said?

WITZ: He said that he'd been trying to write me for the last few weeks, and he didn't know where to start. And he wanted to apologize what he had done to me and my family.

COOPER: Do you believe him?

WITZ: I do believe him. I don't think he had to apologize. He could have just blown me off. I don't think that he had to apologize. I think that he is trying to make himself feel better, maybe, for the time when he has to fight and face justice.

COOPER: Do you think he was brainwashed by Muhammad?

WITZ: Very much so.

COOPER: Really?

WITZ: Yes, I do. He was 17 years old. He had no family. He was left at the age of 12.

COOPER: Do you forgive him?

WITZ: No, I don't forgive him.

COOPER: So you accept the apology but you don't forgive the crime?

WITZ: Exactly. I'll never, ever forget what he did to my father or to my family. But I need to be able to let the hatred go. I need to be able to forgive enough to accept that it's done, it's over. He's done what he did, and now it's time for me to move on.

COOPER: How do you do that? I mean, I always wondered.

WITZ: You know, you carry so much hatred in your heart, and when you think about it every day, you know, and for five years I pushed and pushed and finally, you know, got an answer. And when you think about every single day, it all builds up. It totally builds up and you take it out on everybody.

COOPER: Sometimes when -- when you lose a loved one in a violent way or an unexpected way, it's hard to remember the person and how they lived. You end up remembering how they died. Do you -- when you think of your dad, do you think of the way he lived, of the life he lived? Or...

WITZ: Oh, yes. I never think of my dad dying, unless we're talking about it. You know, if it comes up that way, that's the only time.

When I think about my dad, I think about how wonderful my dad was. He was a wonderful grandfather. He was a wonderful father. You know, he was -- everybody loved my father. And that's why I can't understand who would have targeted -- and for what reason? They stalked him for three days before they shot him.

COOPER: They did?

WITZ: Yes.

COOPER: So they were following him around for three days?

WITZ: For three days. Malvo had dug out an area that he slept in for three nights -- for three nights. And on the third night he -- that next morning, he shot my dad.

COOPER: On a golf course, yes?

WITZ: Yes.

COOPER: So what was it the golf course -- do you know in fact that they were stalking him, or was it just the golf course?

WITZ: No, they were stalking him. They were stalking him.

COOPER: And to this day you don't know why they picked him or how they picked him?

WITZ: Not at all. He said they came down with a picture. Before they even got here, they had a picture of my dad. He said that they stole his wallet, only for the fact that -- not for the money, which they left -- he left in there, but for the identification, to make sure he was killing the right man.

COOPER: It's just such a horrible thing.

I appreciate you talking about it, Cheryll.

WITZ: Sure.

COOPER: Thanks so much for talking with us.

WITZ: Thank you.


COOPER: Again, tomorrow night, the minds of the D.C. Snipers. That's at 8 p.m. Eastern here on CNN.

Just ahead, our "Planet in Peril". We're going to take you to a place that's home to countless species you've never seen before, a place that is on the verge of being wiped out. See for yourself where it is after this short break.


COOPER: In just two weeks, we're going to take you on a journey around the world. A voyage through 13 countries on four continents uncovering our "Planet in Peril".

Tonight Animal Planet's Jeff Corwin takes us on a quick trip to Madagascar, where magnificent animals not seen anywhere else are facing extinction.


JEFF CORWIN, WILDLIFE BIOLOGIST (voice-over): This is a place where 90 percent of the wildlife can be found nowhere else on earth.

(on camera) There he goes.

(voice-over) This is a place where only 10 percent of the natural habitat remains. This is Madagascar.

It is one of the world's largest islands, isolated from mainland Africa for more than 160 million years. The small pockets of the rainforest explode with life. But you have to look closely.

(on camera) If you let your eyes just sort of drift down the trunk of this tree, you'll see spots of lichen and moss and little bumps along the bark.

What's so amazing is that there is a lizard here. It's hard to see, the camouflage is that good. It is a uroplatus gecko. It just moved. Isn't that amazing?

It also perfectly illustrates how many of the animals here survive. They survive by being specialists. This creature is so specific to this tree, to this habitat, it cannot survive anywhere else.


CORWIN (voice-over): And that is why Conservation International's Russ Bittermeyer is here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE) -- this is an area that we really want to protect.

CORWIN: His group is working to protect what are called biodiversity hot spots, regions that are both unique and threatened.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If we're going to try to avert an extinction crisis, which we're facing right now, we've got to focus a lot of attention on hot spots like Madagascar.

CORWIN: Of all of the animals here, the most well known is the island's prime mate, the lemur.

(on camera) Where did you see them? This way?


CORWIN (voice-over): When we come back, our journey to eastern Madagascar. We come face to face with the world's largest lemur. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Look at that.

CORWIN: And to track down one of Madagascar's most mysterious animals, one that has never been filmed.


CORWIN: I see, I see. There's the end there. Oh, my goodness. Look.


COOPER: You can catch the rest of that report in just two weeks. "Planet in Peril" airs October 23 and October 24. You can also watch a preview on our podcast. Just head to our web site at And while you're there, join the conversation. Send us your questions about our planet. Make a video. We might put it on the program.

We'll have our panel of experts answer some of your questions on October 25, the day after "Planet in Peril" airs. Once again, just head to our web site:

Up next in "Raw Politics", the election most of the Democratic presidential candidates don't care about. Find out why some of the big names want off the ballot next.


COOPER: Well, you'd think as the presidential primaries draw closer, the candidates would be fighting to win every vote in every state. But, believe it or not, today the top four presidential candidates have asked that their names be taken off the ballot in one particular primary.

CNN's Tom Foreman tells us why in "Raw Politics".


TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Battle stations. Democrats are massing on the border of Michigan. Several top Democratic contenders have now pulled their names off of the ballot there, protesting plans to move up the primary in Motown and the rest of the Wolverine State.

Clinton and Dodd are staying on the ballot, but all of the Democratic campaigns are backing national party leaders, who insist Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina and Nevada should lead the voting.

(on camera) Watch this, because both Michigan and Florida, which is also moving up with its primary, have vowed to fight to the bitter end. And if voters in those states feel pushed around by the national party, then the Democratic candidate could pay dearly in the general election.

(voice-over) A new poll shows growing concern about the economy among lower income families. So Republican John McCain, proposing a review of the nation's unemployment benefit estimate.

No Child Left Behind is up for renewal, and both conservatives and liberals are taking shots at it. President Bush says he'll talk about changes to the program, but the basic goal must stand: every student reading and doing math on grade level by 2014.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: That doesn't seem like too much to ask.

FOREMAN: And less than two weeks ago, Hillary Clinton said she wanted to give every baby born in America $5,000 for future education or home buying. Now she says, on second thought, dropping the whole thing.

(on camera) The "Raw" reality, critics said this was $20 billion a year worth of pandering, and they said she had no idea how to pay for it.

That's "Raw Politics".


COOPER: Next, a deadly shooting in Baghdad and another private contractor taking the heat.

Later, she was punched and pepper-sprayed, and her case isn't alone. Are police going too far? All the angles with 360.


COOPER: Straight ahead, see what happens when a kangaroo hops onto a racetrack. Hear me do the entire story in Aussie slang.

First Erica Hill joins us once again with a "360 News Bulletin".

ERICA HILL, HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR: Anderson, a serious story involving Australia. A shooting in Baghdad that left two women dead. We're learning more about it now.

Private security guards from an Australian company opened fire on a car they believed was a threat. Nineteen shots hit the women. Both the Iraqi and the security form -- firm are now investigating.

An Iraqi government spokesman called it another example of excessive force.

The Supreme Court today refused to take the case of a German citizen who said he was mistakenly kidnapped and interrogated by the CIA. No reason was given on the appeal.

On Wall Street, a banner day. The Dow setting a new record, finishing today up 120 points at 14,164. Record high, as well, for the S&P 500 today, piling on 12 to close the day at 1565. The NASDAQ tacked on 16.

And retailers already slashing prices for the holidays. Just one problem here. Apparently, consumers aren't biting. Not yet anyway. A new survey shows 40 percent of shoppers say they'll wait until Thanksgiving to start buying. That is up 10 percentage points from last year.

But your shopping is already done, right, Anderson?

COOPER: I can't even -- I'm not even thinking about it.

HILL: It's not even Halloween. It's not even close to Halloween.

COOPER: All of this stuff is starting so early. The election cycle starting so early and now the holidays starting.

HILL: It's just all too much.

COOPER: All right. Here's the shot. It is a show stopper, to say the least. That rhymes with hopper. And you'll see in a second that's exactly what showed up for a day at the races.

Look at that.

HILL: Well, hello!

COOPER: That's right.

HILL: How is that kangaroo not getting hit?

COOPER: I know. It nearly caused a fair dinkum dingo right there. The roo gave it a berl at a track in Barhurst, Australia.

I'm talking Australian.

HILL: I was going to say, I'm not familiar with all of those words.

COOPER: The drivers were gobsmacked. The hopper nearly ended up on the menu at Maccas, but he racked off ridgy-didge. No kangaroos or drivers were hurt in the incident. Only my reputation, perhaps, with Michael Ware.

HILL: Perhaps. But he just may let it slide.

COOPER: That's right. Yes. We want you to send us your "Shot" ideas. If you see some kangaroos hopping around, tell us about it: We'll put some of your clips on the air.


COOPER: Well, coming up next tonight, an update on our story on the airport death. Exclusive new information about the moment before Carol Anne Gotbaum died in police custody. For the first time, we're going to hear from her husband.

And some shocking video of another arrest. This time a teenager. Did police go too far? We'll examine it closely when we return. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Two encounters with police to talk about tonight: one deadly, neither cut nor dry. Both raising troubling questions.

Exactly how Carol Anne Gotbaum died while in police custody remains a mystery. But tonight we have new, exclusive details about her final moments in a Phoenix airport.

And for the first time, you're going to hear from her husband about why he thinks her death could have been prevented. That's only on CNN.

Also tonight, an arrest in Florida turning ugly and caught on tape.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I wasn't doing anything.


COOPER: The suspect, a teenager, weighs all of 90 pounds. She bit the police officer. He punched her. His boss is OK with that.

Tonight we'll talk to experts about both of these cases and let you decide whether any lines were crossed.

Plus, a long-awaited debut for veteran actor and Republican presidential candidate Fred Thompson. So how did he do in today's debate? And what does he really bring to the race? We'll examine all those issues.