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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES

New Life For Hillary Clinton?; Texas Authorities Continue Investigation Into Polygamist Sect

Aired April 23, 2008 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, new life, new numbers for Hillary Clinton, new questions about Barack Obama, and, for a lot of Democratic Party bigwigs, the same case of general election heartburn from this never-ending primary.
Senator Clinton roared into Indiana today -- you see her there -- with a nearly 10-point victory in Pennsylvania, and, the campaign says, 10 million more dollars in the war chest than she had last night. She also claims -- claims -- to have more popular votes than her opponent, but that's only if you count Florida and Michigan, which, right now, the party does not.

Senator Obama also spent the day with Hoosiers. Pennsylvania dealt him a blow, but little damage in the delegate race. According to a new CNN head count, when it comes to pledged delegates, he leads her by 156. But Clinton has 23 more superdelegates than Obama. A little more than 300 superdelegates are still undecided.

That said, he might have put it away last night, but fell short. How he fell short, which we will examine tonight, and with which voters is now part of Senator Clinton's case for the nomination.

So, tonight, we will look closer at what happened in Pennsylvania and we will look ahead to what's happening in Indiana and North Carolina and beyond.

Here's Candy Crowley with the "Raw Politics."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): If it's Wednesday, this must be...

SEN. HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D-NY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I just love Indiana.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

CROWLEY: Trying to hold on to her mojo, Hillary Clinton moved into Indiana with her Pennsylvania template, a middle-class persona.

CLINTON: I know that the American worker is the best worker in the world. We are the most productive workers. Nobody works harder. We have fewer vacation days. We have fewer sick leave days. We work. That's what we do. So, we're going to start having our government support you, instead of undercutting you. CROWLEY: She's a "just like you" candidate who can jugular when the occasion, say a critical primary, calls for it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, CLINTON CAMPAIGN AD)

NARRATOR: Harry Truman said it best. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. Who do you think has what it takes?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CROWLEY: Aired in the final days of Pennsylvania, it was Clinton's message for voters and superdelegates, to wit, Obama isn't tough enough to be president or take on John McCain. Obama needs to both push back on the toughness issue and show off his middle-class creds, a twofer in today's Indiana's news conference.

SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have always believed that, if you're tough, you don't have to talk about it. And I have got a 20-year track of fighting on behalf of working families.

CROWLEY: In the end, Hillary Clinton's Pennsylvania victory did have a lot to do with political DNA. Pennsylvania teems with older voters, working-class voters, Catholic voters, all demographics that generally vote for her. But Barack Obama helped her along. She was only too happy to join in.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, CLINTON CAMPAIGN AD)

NARRATOR: Barack Obama said that people in small towns cling to guns or religion as a way to explain their frustrations.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was very insulted by Barack Obama.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CROWLEY: Add in one really bad debate, when he seemed put out with intense questions about his bitter comment, his controversial pastor, and his ties to a '60 radical, and what Obama got was a 10- point loss and a majority of late-deciders who went into the polling booth and voted for Hillary Clinton. He also got 24 hours worth of questions about the why the guy who has won more states, more pledged delegates, and leaders in the popular vote can't finish her off.

OBAMA: The way we're going to close this deal is by winning. And, right now, we're winning. And what we will do is keep on campaigning in Indiana and North Carolina and Oregon and these other states. And at the conclusion of all these contests, people will go back and take a look and say, who has won?

CROWLEY: But, if he is to win, he can no longer help her along.

Candy Crowley, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: So, as one reporter framed it tonight, was Pennsylvania a game-change or simply a case of prolonging the overtime? And where does the game go from here?

Digging deeper, we're joined by CNN contributor Carl Bernstein, author of "A Woman in Charge: The Life of Hillary Rodham Clinton," also CNN senior analysts Gloria Borger and Jeffrey Toobin.

What about it, Carl? Where does the game go from here?

CARL BERNSTEIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, she can see a little daylight. And she didn't up until she won Pennsylvania. And she really won. But now she has to win everything, sweep the board. And, even then, it's not necessarily so that she could win.

People who really know this situation who she counsels with say that the odds are still way against her, that Obama would have to -- collapse -- collapse, and...

COOPER: And she's still counting on that for her strategy?

BERNSTEIN: But -- well, she has to go negative, that that -- that's what they're saying, that she has to make him not credible, and tar him with something that will lose his basic support. And that's the only way that even her counselors can see her winning. And that has great risks.

COOPER: Gloria, is there enough material already out there?

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: Or is there hope, in terms of from her perspective, hope for some new Weatherman to pop up or reverend to pop up?

(CROSSTALK)

GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, there's always hope, and every little story will become a big story.

But you can make the case, if you're in the Clinton campaign, that she's portrayed him as everything she needs to portray him as, most importantly, the elitist. And then, now -- and I think you saw this in the last couple of days of this Pennsylvania campaign -- she can step back and try and be a little more gracious, because she suffered.

People decided they didn't like her. Now they think she's tough enough, but they're not sure that they like her. She just wants to be standing if he makes a mistake, and then be able to make her case to the superdelegates that I'm the one that can get us in the White House.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR ANALYST: See, I don't think -- I think she's -- the lesson of Pennsylvania is that her negative campaigning worked, making him look like an outsider, making him look like an elitist.

Those -- the campaign ad we just saw in Candy's piece, I think that's a very effective ad. She can do that, and she can win Indiana. But then what? I mean, that's just not enough to catch up in the pledged delegates. And I don't think there's any way in the world the superdelegates are going to overturn the pledged delegates. So, I just don't see what her endgame is, barring a disaster.

COOPER: Carl, I mean, you have done the biography of her. Do you think all this among -- you know, "The New York Times" saying she took the low road to victory, this hand-wringing among some Democrats that she is hurting the party, do you think that matters?

BERNSTEIN: Yes.

COOPER: Do you think they buy it?

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: Because a lot the Clinton people we are hearing from are saying, look, this is much whining; this is much ado about nothing.

BERNSTEIN: If it goes past June 3, it sure as hell does make a big difference, because that's when you start to do grave damage.

But the superdelegates, it is going to take an awful lot of really convincing pressure to move them. And unless they see that Barack Obama cannot win this election, and that he is somehow wearing some kind of hair shirt that -- that makes him unacceptable and so uncomfortable with himself and with the voters that he looks like a loser -- and, right now, he looks like a stronger candidate to most Democrats, if you look at the polls. He still does.

(CROSSTALK)

BORGER: I think -- I think Democrats, though, are asking questions. Gee, is this a fellow who cannot attract those blue-collar workers?

COOPER: Why can't he close the deal?

BORGER: And -- exactly -- and, if you talk to folks in the Obama campaign, they talk to you about the math. When you talk to people in the Clinton campaign, they talk to you about the psychology.

They don't talk about the math.

TOOBIN: Well...

BORGER: They talk about their case to the superdelegates, as if they're litigating a case, and that...

COOPER: But when Hillary Clinton yesterday said that the tide has turned, I mean, do you see much of a tide turning, Jeff?

BORGER: No.

TOOBIN: That was a hope, more than a prediction, I think.

(LAUGHTER) (CROSSTALK)

BERNSTEIN: Yes, but she won. No, she did win.

(CROSSTALK)

TOOBIN: She won a very important victory. I think that's safe to say.

But it's also just hard to see where she goes from here, barring some sort of new revelation...

(CROSSTALK)

TOOBIN: ... Obama.

BERNSTEIN: Indiana is very interesting, because people have not fastened on the fact that she ran Jimmy Carter's campaign in 1976 in Indiana. And she brought him within five points of winning Indiana.

She knows the place. It's next door to where she grew up. And Obama, he's got John Cougar as his surrogate there, who might be the second best thing to Evan Bayh, who is -- Bayh is the biggest name in Indiana. But it's going to be a heck of a fight in Indiana.

And, you know, she's banking that she can show some kind of momentum that will -- will convince these superdelegates. But there's no evidence that it will.

COOPER: We're going to have more from our panel throughout this hour. The conversation is also continuing online right now. We're blogging throughout the hour. So is Erica Hill over there.

To join the conversation, go to CNN.com/360.

Up next: Hillary Clinton's uncertain, but still possible road to victory. We will check in with CNN's John King and that magic map of his to actually look at how it might all play out.

And, later, campaign cash, her big haul in the last 24 hours, about $10 million, her campaign says, how does that compare to Barack Obama's war chest? CNN's Randi Kaye is following the money.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TERRY MCAULIFFE, CLINTON CAMPAIGN CHAIRMAN: We have raised $10 million through the Internet and we have had the biggest day we have ever had in the history of our campaign, 60,000 brand-new donors.

RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Ten million dollars in less than 24 hours, big money for a candidate who, two months ago, couldn't afford to pay staffers and loaned her campaign $5 million out of her own pocket.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON: The voters of Pennsylvania decided by an overwhelming majority that they could count on me. They could count on me to deliver for them. They could count on me to make the tough decisions that will be presented to the next president.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: That is Hillary Clinton, confident, uncompromising, after winning in Pennsylvania. But does she really have a chance of winning?

Let's look at what lies ahead and how the numbers break down.

Let's head over to John King and the magic board.

What did we learn last night, and what does it mean for what comes ahead?

JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, let's look at Pennsylvania last tonight, Anderson. And then we will project forward.

A very sweeping geographic victory for Clinton. Barack Obama did win down here among African-American voters in Philadelphia. That has been his base consistently. That will matter as we move forward.

But look at the rest of the state, Reading, Allentown, Bethlehem, Scranton, white, blue-collar workers here, overwhelmingly for Senator Clinton. All the way out here, the blue-collar corridor, Erie, Pittsburgh, overwhelmingly for Senator Clinton.

So, does Pennsylvania matter in Indiana and North Carolina? Those are the next challenges. Well, let's move the map over and we will look. Let's pull back out.

We move -- first, just look at the proximity here. She wins Pennsylvania. She wins Ohio. Now we're going on to Indiana. Well, this blue matters. Why does that matter? Because about 20 percent of the people of Indiana get their news up here from Chicago. They know Barack Obama well. They get a lot of coverage about him.

Now, I'm going to go back. I'm going to flip back to '04 to show you this state. It's a red state come November. But I want to show you these blue numbers, because that is what Barack Obama is counting on. There are some African-Americans up here. There are some African-Americans in Indianapolis. College town down here in Bloomington that tends to go Democratic, that is what he's looking for.

If you want to see, does Pennsylvania carry over to Indiana, let's look right here. South Bend, you might say college town, Notre Dame, also a Catholic town. Remember, Catholics heavily went for Hillary Clinton in Pennsylvania. A conservative Democratic congressman, a superdelegate, he has not endorsed.

Down here in Evansville, the big surprise in 2006, Democrat Brad Ellsworth wins this Republican-Democrat swing district, a Democrat, but who opposes abortion rights, supports gun rights, and thinks the bringing troops home too soon from Iraq is a mistake. How will that district go in Indiana critical to Senator Clinton?

So, targets of opportunity for both candidates in Indiana, only 8 percent African-American statewide. So, you would think favors Clinton.

Let's move over to North Carolina. This is 2004. Let's come back, fast-forward to 2008, show you the Democratic primary for president. I want to zoom out for a minute first just to show you Barack Obama has advantages here. He won in Virginia. He won in South Carolina, heavy African-American vote.

What is this out here? That's Senator Clinton. That's a rural white vote. And we will have the same dynamics play out here. Twenty-one percent of the population is African-American. That gives Barack Obama advantages in places like this up in here. He can count on the African-Americans.

Key to Senator Clinton, especially now that Obama is ahead in the polls, she probably can't win this state. What she can do is keep the doubts alive among superdelegates out of Pennsylvania that Barack Obama has a problem with white working-class rural voters, who are critical in November. Where can Hillary Clinton do that? She needs to do it out here.

Heath Shuler was a new member of Congress, another Democrat who won in a very tough area, conservative country out here. Senator Clinton, if she can't win the state and come back, she needs to put that doubt in the superdelegates' minds that, look, Barack can't win in some places. Maybe North Carolina won't matter in November, but those voters certainly do, as they ask the superdelegates to look at this big map.

COOPER: And where do the polls show them right now in Indiana and North Carolina?

KING: Indiana, very close. Most recent polls show Senator Clinton may be up a little, tiny bit. The polling in North Carolina has shown Obama with a good lead. Again, the African-American base in these Southern states, look at this. In the states that have a significant African-American population, Obama has won, and won going away.

This is different, in the sense that they're familiar with Barack Obama. He's not new, like he's been in many states. He's not new, because they know him from Illinois, and, yet, this is also much more white or much more rural, so more of a battleground. You would say advantage Clinton, advantage Obama.

COOPER: It's going to be fascinating.

John King, thanks very much.

More politics coming up -- we are tracking the campaign cash, Hillary Clinton saying they got millions in donations today. But can she match Obama's big war chest?

First, new developments on the polygamy investigation in Texas, new details on DNA testing and why new court documents are raising some questions about why that raid happened at all.

Plus, a chopper crash caught on tape -- the surprising location next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Raking in the cash -- the campaign of Hillary Clinton said that supporters online sent in millions of dollars in just a few hours after the -- the primary victory last night. Plus, how she won last night, a look at the exit polls with Bill Schneider.

But, first, Erica Hill joins us with the other news, a 360 bulletin -- Erica.

ERICA HILL, HEADLINE NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, lab workers at a Texas coliseum have finished taking DNA samples from about 500 women and children from a polygamist compound. But, at the compound, testing is still under way. The goal here, to determine each child's parents. Also today, more than 100 children were put in foster care.

Meantime, new details tonight on Rosita Swinton, the person of interest in this case. According to Colorado court doctors, a phone number used to report alleged abuse at the Texas compound is one of several used by Swinton.

Tomorrow, on Capitol Hill, a source tells CNN, U.S. intelligence officials will tell lawmakers North Korea was helping Syria build a nuclear facility. That facility was bombed by Israel last September. Syria's ambassador to the U.S. says his country has never had a nuclear project.

And a close call in Topeka, Kansas, where a police helicopter crash caught on tape. Check this out. The chopper crashed into a parking lot at Washburn University. Luckily, nobody was hurt. The video was just released today. The crash actually happened, though, earlier this month, Anderson.

COOPER: Hard to see, but really bizarre there.

Up next: a look at the exit polls, how Hillary Clinton pulled off her big win, what we learned from those exit polls.

Also ahead: campaign cash. Senator Clinton says they have raised about $10 million since last night. But is that enough? Randi Kaye is following the money.

And here's tonight "Beat 360": Flocke, the 3-month-old polar bear cub, playing with a camera at the Nuremberg Zoo. That's what the picture is.

Here's the caption from our staff winner, Gabe: "Anderson, show that bear falling out of the tree again, and I will bounce you off a trampoline" -- this, of course, referring to the video that we know and love. Where's the video?

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: The dramatic animal video, you're asking for?

COOPER: Yes. Where is it? There we go.

HILL: There we go.

COOPER: Bear bouncing off a trampoline.

HILL: Yes.

COOPER: That's a 360 favorite.

So, if you think you can do better on the caption, go to CNN.com/360. Send us your submission. We will announce the winner at the end of the program.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: I'm confident that, whoever the nominee is, that the Democratic Party will be unified in August and will be unified throughout the fall. I think that -- that nominee will be me. I'm confident that we will could -- we will be able to win this nomination. But we're going to work as hard as we can in the remaining contests.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Barack Obama talking party unity at a campaign stop in New Albany, Indiana.

As the candidates make new speeches, their staffs are poring over the latest exit polls, and with good reason. The information is priceless, literally, telling Senators Clinton and Obama exactly who voted for them and who did not. The results are revealing. They may also be a wakeup call for to stop the fighting.

CNN's Bill Schneider has the latest breakdown from the exit polls. He joins us now.

Bill, what -- what groups were key to her win last night?

WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, Anderson, demography is destiny.

Pennsylvania has a lot of blue-collar voters, a lot of Catholics, and a lot of seniors. And they all delivered for Hillary Clinton. Now, African-Americans and young voters and independents were loyal to Obama, but there not as many of them, relative to their presence in other states.

Now, keep in mind, Pennsylvania borders Ohio. And both states voted for Clinton over Obama by 10 points. There are three other states that border Ohio that are going to vote in the next month. West Virginia and Kentucky look pretty good for Clinton. Indiana is likely to be closer, because a lot of the voters in Indiana live in the Chicago media market, where Barack Obama is a local.

Now, North Carolina, I'm able exclusively to reveal, is nowhere near Ohio, and the demographics in North Carolina look a lot better for Barack Obama, a lot more African-Americans and a high concentration of young voters and professionals in the Research Triangle area.

COOPER: I'm going to write down "North Carolina not near Indiana."

SCHNEIDER: Ohio. Ohio.

COOPER: Not near Ohio.

(LAUGHTER)

COOPER: Are voters confident, though -- I mean, looking at the results last night -- she won by 10 percentage points -- but are voters confident that she's going to be the nominee?

SCHNEIDER: No. When Pennsylvania primary voters were asked who they think will be the Democratic nominee, they said Barack Obama. And then they voted for Hillary Clinton.

Now, that is odd, because more and more Democratic voters believe Obama is going to be their nominee, but there isn't any Obama bandwagon. Hillary Clinton is not just the comeback kid. She's really the comeback-of-the-month kid, four months, four comebacks, in January, New Hampshire, in February, Super Tuesday, in March, Ohio and Texas, and now in April, Pennsylvania. Each time, she came back from a near-death experience.

COOPER: But what does the back and forth mean for the Democratic Party come November? Do we know?

SCHNEIDER: We are already seeing some evidence of damage to the Democratic Party.

Take a look at this. Only 53 percent of Clinton voters in Pennsylvania said that they will vote for Barack Obama over John McCain. Over a quarter of them said they are going to vote for John McCain. Yikes.

The Democratic Party, Anderson, is in a tough space. Obama can't seem to close the sale, and Hillary Clinton seem to overtake him. It's not that she's so far behind. She really isn't. It's that the Democratic -- Democratic Party's rules make it very difficult for her to pick up enough delegates to beat him or to gain enough popular votes to gain the edge over him, unless you count Florida and Michigan, which is very controversial.

There really is a growing danger for the Democratic Party that the losing candidate can claim that the process was somehow unfair, that they were cheated out of the nomination. And, if that happens, it would tear the party apart.

COOPER: Well, it's something we will have to watch.

Bill Schneider, appreciate that.

"The New York Times" referred to Hillary Clintons' victory last night as the low road to victory. And the exit polls show that voters seem to agree that the negative attacks coming from both candidates right now could destroy the party's chances in November, as Bill was talking about.

So, is it worth the risk? We wanted to talk to some of Hillary Clinton's supporters about her strategy going forward.

So, earlier, I spoke with political contributors and former Clinton advisers James Carville and Paul Begala. We also, of course, wanted to bring in a Barack Obama supporter. So, we brought in Jamal Simmons, a Democratic strategist, as well.

Here's what they told me.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Paul, "The New York Times" wrote -- and I quote -- "It is past time for Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton to acknowledge that the negativity, for which she is mostly responsible, does nothing but harm to her, her opponent, her party and the 2008 election."

Moving forward, Paul, in Indiana, does Hillary Clinton continue to try to, I guess, tear down Barack Obama or raise questions about his character, his strength, his ability to lead?

PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, I think that "The New York Times," it's the old gray lady. It's a wonderful newspaper. They're a bunch of ninnies. You know, there's no...

COOPER: Ninnies?

BEGALA: Ninnies, wimps, wussies. Pick your word.

(LAUGHTER)

BEGALA: You know, here's the -- here's the problem.

They said this is doing long-term damage to Senator Clinton, Senator Obama, the Democratic Party. I can't remember what else. I guess they're causing global warming, the extinction of the dinosaurs.

Look, it's all been good for the Democratic Party. It's been good for Barack Obama, who is raising money and drawing huge crowds. It's been good for Hillary Clinton, who has now won by 10 points in a key state.

COOPER: The Obama campaign, you know, they have complaining about Clinton's negativity. But Obama is unable to make any progress with white voters without college degrees in Pennsylvania, despite outspending Hillary Clinton, spending $11 million on television ads in one state. He had the same problem in Ohio?

Isn't this a huge problem if he ever even makes it to the general election?

JAMAL SIMMONS, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, the exit polls did show that he made up ground with white voters in Pennsylvania vs. Ohio, for instance.

He also -- we know he won with white voters in Virginia. He won in Wisconsin with white voters. So, you know, there have been states where he has won and done better with white voters. And it seems he did a little bit of that yesterday. Also, with older voters, he did better in Pennsylvania than he did in Ohio.

So, it's a tougher market. You know, they had the governor. They had the mayor of the cities. You know, they had a lot of infrastructure going on. In the Clinton campaign, they had a lot of infrastructure in Pennsylvania that Barack Obama didn't have.

COOPER: James, does -- in your opinion, does Barack Obama have a problem as being perceived as elitist, with all the -- Reverend Wright, the -- the bitter comments, the flag lapel pin? Does he seem, I think as Bill Bennett said, the most left-of-center candidate there is?

JAMES CARVILLE, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I don't know.

I mean, I think that Senator Clinton has a lot of -- enormous popularity with people, these kinds of voters that gave her the win in Pennsylvania. So, and the truth of the matter is, these candidates are going to have to -- are going to go out. They're going to contrast their positions with each other. And that's fine.

I think Senator Obama can appeal to these voters. He is running against someone that has a lot of appeal. And that is Senator Clinton. And we will see what happens in Indiana, when we move on from here.

BEGALA: Paul, Hillary Clinton talked about the popular vote race today and made the argument that she's actually leading. I want to play that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON: I'm very proud that as of today, I have received more votes by the people who have voted than anybody else. And I am proud of that, because it's a very close race.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

CLINTON: But, if you count, as I count, the 2.3 million people who voted in Michigan and Florida, then we are going to build on that.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Paul, I mean, I know they wanted a redo, and they didn't get it. But, with a straight face, how can she count those folks when she agreed not to count them back when she didn't think she needed them?

BEGALA: Well, who knows what she agreed to? The rules say you can't seat the delegates, but it doesn't mean...

(LAUGHTER)

COOPER: Well, I mean, they -- they signed off on the DNC rules. Whether it was smart to or not to, they did, didn't they?

BEGALA: I understand that.

The rules say that you can't seat those delegates. It doesn't mean that we have repealed the laws of mathematics. So, if, by voting, you mean Homo sapiens walking in a polling place on Election Day, and pulling a lever, punching a card, pushing a screen for a candidate, it's -- to me, it's elemental math. More people have voted for Hillary Clinton than anybody else...

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: This is like arguing over what the definition of is, is, isn't it?

BEGALA: No, no, it's Simple math.

If you decide, all of a sudden, that Michigan is not part of America or Florida is not part of America, that -- then they don't count. But they are people. They did vote. And I do think, certainly rhetorically, Hillary has got a perfect right to claim she earned their votes, because they voted for Hillary Clinton.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: I don't see problem here.

SIMMONS: Anderson, I don't know if this means that we should count the vote -- the people who vote on "American Idol," or straw votes, or Internet polls, because they count about as much as Michigan and Florida counted.

Everybody agreed to the rules ahead of time, and that those contests don't count to. So, to go back after the contests are over and try to add in contests that everybody said would not count is really -- is -- is changing the -- moving the goalposts in the middle of the game.

I think that Senator Clinton has got to play this game according to the rules that everybody signed up for when this process started. And she was one of the people. And many of her supporters were on the rules committee. They've made this decision. They've got to live by the rules they signed up for. And you can't go back and change it in the end.

COOPER: James...

CARVILLE: Clinton...

COOPER: Go ahead, James.

CARVILLE: As I would point out first of all, they did vote, OK? And we offered, by the way, to have a revote of which myself, Governor Rendell, Governor Corzine offered to pay for right on this network. The Obama people did everything they can to stop it.

He's running away from Michigan. He's running away from Florida. And he's running away from the debate.

I'm going to be 1,000 percent for Senator Obama, but I think that you've got to run to something when you're running for president. And we should have allowed these people in Michigan and Florida to vote. Senator Obama should show up at the debates. We can't run away from these things.

And we have big problems in this country. You can't go hide under "The New York Times" editorialists' skirt every time something happens and expect them to come out and do your fighting for you. Let's get out in the open. Let's air our differences as a party should.

And then at -- at the conclusion of this contest the one with the most votes, as Paul defined it -- that is actual people going in a voting booth and expressing a preference -- let's weigh all that, and let's get a nominee and go forward and win this thing in November.

COOPER: We're going to have to leave it there.

Jamal Simmons, good to have you on.

Paul Begala, James Carville, as well. Thank you very much.

BEGALA: Thanks.

SIMMONS: Thank you.

COOPER: Next on 360, the money train. Hillary Clinton's sudden windfall and why Barack Obama is still so far ahead in fundraising.

And later, deadly attack, a bear used in movies turns on its trainer. The 911 call tonight on 360.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D-NY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We were up against a formidable opponent who outspent us 3-1. He broke every spending record in this state trying to knock us out of the race. Well, the people of Pennsylvania had other ideas.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Hillary Clinton saying her victory last night wasn't about the money, but then she went ahead and asked for more contributions. And her supporters apparently responded.

Since yesterday, the Clinton campaign says that they have received $10 million. But she is still far behind Barack Obama who, of course, is flush with cash.

So why is there that disparity among the -- with the cash? And will all of the money in the world make a difference in this race?

CNN's Randi Kaye is following the money.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The great Democratic divide may ultimately come down to the dollar. Barack Obama has out- raised Hillary Clinton by tens of millions, but fresh off her victory in Pennsylvania, she's playing catch-up.

TERRY MCAULIFFE, CLINTON CAMPAIGN MANAGER: We've raised $10 million through the Internet. We've had the biggest day we've ever had in the history of our campaign, 60,000 brand new donors.

KAYE: Ten million dollars in less than 24 hours. Big money for a candidate who two months ago couldn't afford to pay staffers and loaned her campaign $5 million out of her own pocket.

LARRY SABATO, CENTER FOR POLITICS, UVA: There's no such thing as being broke when you have a brand name in politics. And the Clinton name is one of the best brand names in American politics.

KAYE: Obama out-spent Clinton three-to-one in Pennsylvania, and she still stole a double-digit victory. Even so, the Obama campaign says he raised millions today, too, and is not concerned about Clinton's cash.

SEN. CLAIRE MCCASKILL, OBAMA CAMPAIGN CO-CHAIR: I don't think either candidate is going to lose this campaign or win this campaign on the basis of donations. They're going to win it or lose it, based on who the American people and who the Democrats think can deliver the most effective message of change.

KAYE: Here are the numbers. At the end of March, Clinton had just $8 million to spend on primaries. Obama, six times that, more than $42 million. Both have debt. Obama, about $660,000 worth. Clinton, a whopping $10 million. And with another must-win around the corner in Indiana, she needs cash. She's not shy about asking for it. Last night, during her victory speech...

CLINTON: We can only keep winning if we can keep competing with an opponent who outspends us so massively.

KAYE: And today in Indianapolis.

CLINTON: I would really welcome a contribution, because we are being outspent...

KAYE (on camera): Does Hillary Clinton need money to win Indiana?

JENNIFER DONAHUE, NEW HAMPSHIRE INSTITUTE OF POLITICS: There's no doubt about it. She needs a lot of cash on hand to run a good, strong ground operation to get out the vote.

KAYE (voice-over): Our experts agree, Clinton got into the game of grassroots fundraising too late. Obama raised millions through small donations. Clinton went for the big dogs.

(on camera) weThat seems to have changed. Judging from her Web site, she, too, was aggressively pursuing smaller donations. Until today, if you logged onto HillaryClinton.com, you'd be directed to the campaign's main page. Well, now, you're directed here, to a donation page asking for a contribution of just $5.

(voice-over) If the money train stops short, might Hillary Clinton spend more of her own money again?

MCAULIFFE: Well, I haven't asked her that. Everything is always on the table.

KAYE: Especially not when it may be the last lifeline for a very financially strapped campaign.

Randi Kaye, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Following the money.

Up next, the next battleground. Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama hitting the ground running in Indiana today, where polls are predicting a tight race. We'll look at that.

And a new job for the top U.S. commander in Iraq, General Petraeus. What it means for the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: As we mentioned, in two weeks, Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama face off again in Indiana and North Carolina. Polls conducted by the "L.A. Times" and Bloomberg before last night's primary showed Obama leading in both states but by a much bigger margin in North Carolina. Again, that was before last night's primary.

Let's take a look at those numbers: 47 percent of likely Democratic primary voters in North Carolina backed Obama, 34 percent Clinton, 19 percent unsure. A lot of unsure and undecideds at this point.

In Indiana, Obama was ahead -- ahead of Clinton by just five points, 40-35, with 25 percent of voters unsure. Large numbers of undecideds.

That last poll explains why both candidates were hitting the trail hard in Indiana the day after Pennsylvania. So what are they facing there? With a look at that, CNN's Tom Foreman up close.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Anderson, about 6 million people live in Indiana, half as many as in Pennsylvania, and each candidate has some likely natural power supplies here.

Let's start with Clinton and race.

(on camera) Indiana is 89 percent white. That's above the national average. That's above Pennsylvania where exit polls show race was a factor that hurt Obama, so that's likely a plus for Clinton.

The percentage of female voters is just a little below Pennsylvania, so she probably won't pick up any extra ground there. But, a lot of the Democrats here consider themselves basically conservative. And that could disincline them to Obama's message of change.

So, what helps Obama?

Well, there are fewer older people here per capita than in Pennsylvania. And since senior citizens tend to like Clinton, having less of them could help him.

And there are plenty of young voters to pursue. Indiana has dozens of well-regarded colleges and universities -- Notre Dame, Purdue, among others -- and the college kids tend to love Obama, rolling out really impressive numbers of new voters.

But there is a catch: when young people graduate in Indiana, they often move away. So overall, the state's population is less educated than average, and less educated people tend to vote more often for Clinton.

There are many blue-collar workers here. And she's done well with them. But Indiana has not been hit quite as hard economically as some other states, so they could be a wash, depending on whose message really connects with them -- Anderson. (END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Tom, thanks very much. Interesting looking at how Indiana breaks down.

As we slog toward the next two Democratic primaries in North Carolina. And boy, doesn't it feel like a slog? Of course, Indiana. There's plenty to talk about on the campaign trail.

Joining me again, senior contributor Carl Bernstein, CNN analyst Gloria Borger, and Jeffrey Toobin. You know, Gloria, it's interesting -- we were talking about this while watching Tom's piece. Early on there was all that talk about race, you know, overcoming race and -- and kind of moving beyond race. And yet, it seems like race has -- has become an issue.

GLORIA BORGER, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, I think there's -- there's no denying it anymore, particularly after the Pennsylvania primary. Of white voters who said that race was a factor, 75 percent of them voted for Hillary Clinton.

It's very difficult to figure out whether race is a factor, because people don't tell you. But it is a concern, because you know, Obama says he's change. His name is Barack Hussein Obama, and he's African-American. That's a lot of change for a lot of people to accept. And so race is clearly a part of that.

COOPER: And we see a big difference among generation gap. I mean, older voters voting for Hillary Clinton, younger voters for Barack Obama.

CARL BERNSTEIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Race is the most integral part of our history in many ways. Of course, it's going to be part of the underside of this campaign.

BORGER: Not so much for the younger voters.

(CROSSTALK)

TOOBIN: Yes.

BORGER: Not so much...

BERNSTEIN: It skews both ways. I mean, there -- look, Colin Powell could have become -- become president in the year 2000. I don't think there's much question about that.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Maybe.

BERNSTEIN: The idea that we're at the point where we can elect a black president or a woman as president, I think that there's pretty convincing evidence that it can happen. Whether these are the right two candidates, we don't know yet.

COOPER: Jeff. TOOBIN: I just think we may be wrong. We may be overstating the importance of race in all of this. I mean, think about how unusual a public figure Barack Obama is. Start with his name, his youth, his inexperience. And he is, I think it's safe to say, the front-runner for the presidency.

So, I don't think race could be that much of a negative, given his exalted status at this point. Sure, it's hard. It should be hard to become president.

BORGER: The pollster Peter Hart, Democratic pollster, always asks this question. He says the question about Barack Obama is how safe is he going to be? Because we really don't know him very well.

Part of that folded into that could be a question of he's African-American. We don't -- we've never done that before. Part of that could be for Hillary Clinton.

COOPER: The same -- question is, it sounds similar to the -- what Bill Clinton said -- I think it was on Charlie Rose -- about it's a roll of the dice with Barack Obama.

BORGER: Right. And I don't think Bill Clinton was talking about race there.

COOPER: Right.

BORGER: I think he was talking about the fact that he's a new person on the scene with relatively...

(CROSSTALK)

BERNSTEIN: ... Lincoln. Lincoln was a one-term congressman. I mean, that's not awful (ph).

COOPER: What there the keys for Indiana, coming up? For Indiana?

TOOBIN: I think, can Obama go back to the coalition that won him in Wisconsin and in Virginia? You know, can he get educated voters back?

To me, the most surprising fact of last night was that he did so poorly in Montgomery County, the wealthy suburb north of Philadelphia where, you know, that had been his prime demo, inside African- Americans.

COOPER: We're going to talk more about Indiana coming up. But also, we'll talk about vice-presidential candidates, perhaps, and how that may affect things.

Also tonight, a promotion for General Petraeus, what that could mean for the war in Iraq, the war in Afghanistan.

And a bear that appeared in Will Farrell's latest movie goes on the attack. The story and dramatic 911 tape, next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: We're back with Carl Bernstein, Gloria Borger and Jeffrey Toobin, talking about where the Democratic presidential race goes next, whether the candidates are hurting their own party.

Carl, I want to talk to you a little bit about -- I mean, is there still -- Charlie Gibson asked at the debate about the dream ticket. At the time it seemed kind of like the last thing on any of those candidates' minds. But you hear people talking about it.

BERNSTEIN: Until today, I would have said no. And I talked to a very wise counselor to Hillary Clinton today who said, "Look, it is a real long shot that we are going to win this election. WE can see a little light. But the odds are, we're not going to win it." But it is certainly possible that she can demand the vice presidency, and as much as Obama might not want to give it to her, he would have to, this person said, because she's got some real bragging rights about, "Look, I came this close."

And she doesn't want to sit around in the Senate, perhaps, for the next eight years or 12 years or whatever. She could be the first woman vice president or something. You know, there are all kinds of possibilities.

And I said to myself, are you sure that that's possible? And this person said, "Look, it's supposition. But I know her." And it may -- it's somebody who has written her biography. It made great sense to me.

COOPER: Gloria, do you think...

BORGER: No, I think that -- I never thought that the -- that this arranged marriage could happen. Usually arranged marriages don't work out too well. But because...

COOPER: Don't tell that to about half of the world population, but anyway.

BORGER: But because neither side or the Democratic Party really can afford to have either side feeling cheated in this, that I think it is -- it is possible. The only problem is that these folks don't really like each other that much...

BERNSTEIN: They don't. They do not.

BORGER: ... at this moment. And I think she, in her own way, might be more likely...

COOPER: Does anyone -- I don't know Washington all that well, but does anyone in Washington really like each other all that much?

TOOBIN: I think the candidates -- the Clintons, of all people, understand that this is business. You don't have to have your best friend. She's 61 years old. In eight years, she'll be three years younger than John McCain is now. And women live longer than men, and she's in perfect health. So I think the vice presidency is far from out of the question for her. I don't think she wants to spend the next 20 years swirling in Senate committee hearings.

BERNSTEIN: She'll like it (ph).

TOOBIN: It's a real possibility.

BORGER: She could have a great career as Senate majority leader, if she wanted to. I mean, that's a possibility people -- people embrace. But would Obama, if that were the cost of him getting the nomination and uniting the party? Would he take Hillary? Sure, why not?

BERNSTEIN: But could he say no? That's...

BORGER: Why not?

BERNSTEIN: I was really intrigued by what this person says. And I think that, as they realized, look, this is a real long shot, they're going to start talking about it.

COOPER: That's fascinating. Carl Bernstein, Gloria Borger, Jeff Toobin, thanks very much.

Politicians often get accused of waffling. We all know that. So how often do their actual waffles, the kind you eat for breakfast, end up on eBay? I'm pretty sure this is a first, hopefully the last. It's the "Shot of the Day" in a moment.

First, Erica Hill joins us again with the other news, a "360 News and Business Bulletin" -- Erica.

HILL: Anderson, a personal shuffle is underway at the -- a personnel shuffle, that is, is underway at the Defense Department. Pending Senate approval, the top commander in Iraq, General David Petraeus, will become the next commander of all American forces in the Middle East. It's the job formerly held by Admiral William Fallon, who resigned, of course, last month.

The White House wants Petraeus' former deputy in Iraq to succeed him.

More pain for you at the pump, although you may not need to hear from me. Gas prices hitting another high today: $3.56 a gallon. That's up two cents from just yesterday's record.

And in California, a 700-pound grizzly bear that appeared in a recent Will Ferrell movie killed an animal trainer. That attack happened at a facility for exotic animals during the filming of a video. Now, this is part of the 911 call.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Fire Department and Emergency. How can I...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) he's bleeding from his neck heavily.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hold on, ma'am. She's at Onyx Summit off of Rainbow Lane. There's a bear. We think it's an animal attack.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. A bear attack.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A bear attack?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's bleeding heavily from his neck. We're trying to get him into the car. We need someone here immediately.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Stephen Miller died at the scene. The bear's face has not been decided, Anderson.

COOPER: That's such a bizarre story.

Just ahead, a political -- this race still unfolding -- sort of. How did Senator Barack Obama's half-eaten waffle end up on eBay? And how high does the bidding war go? How do we know that's the real waffle? Anyway.

Plus, part two of our award-winning "Planet in Peril" series tonight. We're on the trail of poachers in Cambodia and poisoned water in China, coming up in our next hour. But stay tuned for that waffle story.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: When politics and commerce collide, sometimes you get the politics of the absurd. Which brings us to tonight's "Shot." Some are calling it Wafflegate.

While campaigning in Scranton, Pennsylvania, Senator Barack Obama ordered a waffle at a diner. It was listed for $2.75 on the menu. He ate about half of it. And later -- no one knows exactly how -- his leftovers ended up on eBay, triggering a bidding war that topped $10,000.

HILL: This is truly the silly season when this kind of stuff happens.

COOPER: So, I don't even believe it was -- how do we know it was his waffle?

HILL: A. And B...

COOPER: Has anyone DNA tested the waffle?

HILL: I don't think so.

COOPER: Yes. HILL: They're very busy with other DNA testing right now. But if it is, in fact, his waffle, why are you bidding for it?

COOPER: Yes, and also, I mean, nobody is going to pay $10,000 for it. And the waffle listing disappeared from the site. No evidence it was actually sold. The -- we suspect most of the bids, especially the $10,000 ones, were just jokes. That's our -- our best guess.

HILL: I hope, just for the sake of everyone...

COOPER: Yes.

HILL: ... that they were.

COOPER: Yes.

If you see some waffles for sale, please tell us about it at CNN.com/360. We'd like to know about that sort of thing.

Now tonight's "Beat 360" winner. This is the part of the program where we turn words and pictures into a contest, if you will. We post a picture on our Web site. And you try to come up with a better caption than our staffers.

Tonight's picture shows Flocke -- or Flack -- I'm not sure how to pronounce Flocke.

HILL: Flocke.

COOPER: Exactly. A 3-month-old polar bear cub playing with a TV camera during a public appearance in Nuremberg Zoo in Germany. Very cute, right? If only he could talk. In a caption, animals can actually talk.

Tonight's staff is Gabe. His caption: "Anderson, show that bear falling out of a tree again and I'll bounce you off a trampoline."

HILL: Yes, I'd like to see you try it.

COOPER: It's referring to our favorite video, which we admit we do play a lot. Not that one. That's the "Dramatic Animal Video." And there's the bear on the trampoline. All right.

HILL: There we go. It's just the lead-in to the bear.

COOPER: Got it.

All right. Tonight's viewer -- this is the longest segment ever. Tonight's viewer winner is Jacqueline. Her entry: "So tell me again, what's my motivation?"

HILL: Cute.

COOPER: Oh, yes. Sure, why not? You can check out the other competition at our Web site, CNN.com/360. And if you can do better, play along next time. You've got to be in it to win it, as they say.

HILL: Yes.

COOPER: Coming up at the top of the hour, the trail of poachers who traffic endangered in animals, places where the water is literally killing people and a whole lot more. It's another episode of our "Planet in Peril." Overpopulation, consumption, another special hour, next on 360.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)