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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Democrats Hand Defeat to President Obama; Four Arrested in New York Terrorism Plot
Aired May 20, 2009 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, breaking news on two fronts, both terror-related, the first item unfolding right now here in New York.
Four men have been arrested in connection with an alleged plot to set off a bomb outside a synagogue in the Riverdale section of the Bronx. In addition, federal prosecutors alleging the four plan to shoot down military planes from a New -- a New York Air National Guard base at Stewart Airport.
The arrests came after a long-running FBI undercover operation that began in Newburgh, about an hour north of the city. It's where Stewart Airport is located. Now, the men were arrested Wednesday evening. We are just learning about it. Authorities say they were planning to detonate a car with plastic explosives outside the temple. We're trying to get more details, and we're going to bring them to you when we do.
The other breaking news story tonight, just hours after Democrats and Congress handed him a major defeat, blocking his plans to close Guantanamo and house detainees on American soil, it appears President Obama's upping the ante.
CNN has learned that the first of 240 Gitmo detainees, this man, this accused terrorist, is coming to New York to face trial. His name is Ahmed Ghailani, indicted by a federal grand jury more than a decade ago on charges that he took part in the 1998 al Qaeda bombing -- or plot to bomb American embassies in Africa that killed more than 200 people in Kenya and Tanzania.
He was finally captured five years ago, facing charges of war crimes.
Let's get the latest now from Ed Henry at the White House -- Ed.
ED HENRY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, Ahmed Ghailani is an al Qaeda operative.
And what's significant here is, he would be the first Guantanamo detainee that would be brought to U.S. soil and tried in a civilian court, instead of a military commission. So, the administration being aggressive tonight about trying to get word that they're bringing some of these detainees to justice.
Significance about being brought to New York City, as you mentioned, that's where he was indicted for these bombings of U.S. embassies in Africa in 1998. We should point out over 200 people were killed in those attacks, including 12 Americans.
The other significant part of this is, New York City is a place that obviously has dealt with a lot of these high-level detainees, high-profile terror cases. They could handle a detainee like this, a hardened alleged criminal, whereas a state like Nebraska, Illinois could not.
This administration taking not just that vote in the Senate, but, also today, the president's own FBI director, Robert Mueller, dealt a blow to the president by telling Congress he's worried about putting some of these detainees in American prisons, in the American justice system.
So, there are a lot of problems for the administration on that front tonight -- Anderson.
COOPER: The timing, though, of this is no coincidence.
HENRY: Well, obviously, as you mentioned, the president takes it on the chin today, 90-6 by the Senate, a Democratic-run Senate. Clearly, this White House tonight wants to show, look, we are pushing to bring these detainees to justice.
But the -- also the significance is that, tomorrow, the president is giving a major speech, not just on Guantanamo, but on interrogation policy, on why -- trying to explain why he is not releasing those photos of prison abuse.
So, all of this coming out now, obviously, can help bolster his case that he's trying to move these detainees to justice. But we should also point out that there's another big speech in Washington tomorrow.
Former Vice President Dick Cheney, who has been attacking this administration left and right on all of these issues, is giving a speech about a half-hour after the president tomorrow right here in Washington.
This battle is just beginning, Anderson.
COOPER: Ed, stay with us.
We want to bring in senior political analyst David Gergen, and also senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin, who has written extensively about Guantanamo.
David, let's talk about what happened on Capitol Hill today. How big of a blow to President Obama is this move by Congress, basically not allowing him to close down Guantanamo, not giving them the money to close it down, the $80 million or so it would cost, and saying that they can't bring the folks here?
DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, it's significant in a couple of ways, Anderson. It's one of the first serious rebellions we have seen by the Democrats against the president since he took office. And, secondly, it goes -- it cuts directly counter to one of his major campaign pledges. And that was to cut -- to close down Guantanamo and -- and set up a new legal system for these people, or put them into a more regular legal system.
I must say that there's more than a whiff of hypocrisy on the part of the Democrats on this. After all, they had been ham -- they hammered away at President George W. Bush for putting these detainees in Guantanamo, saying how unfair this was, the civil rights -- the human rights abuses and all the rest.
Well, where did they -- who did they think was going to take responsibility for these detainees after Guantanamo was closed down? The Tooth Fairy? What were they thinking? Of course they had to -- some of them have to come to the United States to be tried. It's a -- we're a responsible power. We have maximum security prisons to hold these people.
It just seems to me there's a fecklessness about this. They're scoring political points, but at the expense of what I think is a blow to the president, an unnecessary blow.
COOPER: Jeff, in terms of Guantanamo, some 240 people there, right now, what's going to happen to them? I mean, if they can't be put in American prisons -- this guy's now being brought to the United States. Or they -- did they pick him because there's a solid case against him?
There are -- there's a group of the detainees who can be prosecuted in American courts, just...
COOPER: There's enough evidence?
TOOBIN: There's enough evidence -- like this fellow who is being brought over. And that's not particularly legally controversial. They will get all the rights. They will have a jury trial. They will have lawyers.
COOPER: And he would serve time in an American prison?
TOOBIN: If he's convicted.
The really complicated group is the group which our people think are dangerous, but we don't have enough evidence to give them a regular American trial.
COOPER: Because some of these folks were just rounded up by the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan, handed over to U.S. forces, put on the plane, and -- and it's not really known exactly what they did.
TOOBIN: And hundreds have been through Guantanamo and already released. The government, even during the Bush administration, has tried to release some of the 240 who are there now, but they don't have a country who will take them. I mean, they don't think these people are dangerous.
But there's a third category. The people who can be criminally prosecuted, that's not controversial. The people they're trying to send home, that's not controversial. The group is, what do you do with the people you think are dangerous, but you don't have enough evidence? That's where the military tribunals came from, these semi- regular trials, where the defendants have some rights, but not as many as an American courtroom.
The Supreme Court has rejected the Bush administration's plan. Obama criticized those plans. Now he's saying, he wants to start up those systems again. But where's he going to do it? Because the Senate says he can't do it in the United States. He wants to close Guantanamo. That is the dilemma he faces right now.
COOPER: So, David Gergen, what's the solution?
GERGEN: Well, the president met with a group of human rights leaders this afternoon -- or during the day today -- and the reports out tonight are that he's ruminating about a potential plan for preventive detention, that is, to keep, almost on an indefinite basis, the very people that Jeff just talked about, those who are considered too dangerous to release, but you don't have enough evidence to take them to trial.
You know, that's going to be very controversial. The human rights groups don't like it. You know, the president's a little boxed -- boxed in here, but I must say, if he shows -- I think the solution for him is, show fidelity to the Constitution, show fidelity to his original campaign promises, and force the Democrats to say, look, OK, we have got to do this.
If you're not going to keep them in Guantanamo, where are you going to put them? You have got to deal with some of them here in the United States. We just can't pass them off and ask Europe to take them, for goodness' sakes.
We're not the ones who -- we are the ones who started the war. We need to clean it up. And I think the Democrat are going to have to accept that responsibility.
COOPER: Ed -- Ed...
COOPER: Go ahead, Jeff.
TOOBIN: Well, I -- I just thought Director Mueller's testimony was bizarre today.
GERGEN: I agree with that.
TOOBIN: I mean, if there's one thing the United States knows how to do, it's keep people in prison and out of trouble.
The idea that they would be fund-raising from prison, the idea that they would be targets of attack, come on. We know how to do this. We have supermax prisons. These are not -- they're not going to escape. The idea that Mueller is saying it's somehow dangerous to keep them in the United States just seems against all of what we know about how our prisons work.
COOPER: Ed, do we know what the White House is -- I mean, what are their options?
HENRY: Well, we know that -- we have just learned that the president tonight, around 6:00 p.m., had one final meeting with his top aides, I'm told, here at the White House to try to go through all these options. And they realize there are no easy ones, as you have been hearing.
And, in fact, I asked Robert Gibbs that question at the briefing today. Are there any second thoughts about rushing through that executive order that first week here to sign it and say, look, we have got to close Guantanamo within one year and put that deadline? Would it have been smarter to say, look, we're going to study it, we're going to look at all these options, weigh them, and then come back with an executive order in the spring or summer to close it down for another year?
He said, there are no second thoughts here.
But I'm being told that they're still going through all these options. And what the president is going to try to do tomorrow is not focus in on just Guantanamo. Instead, what top aides are saying is, he's going to try to broaden it out, talk about interrogation policy, talk about those prison abuse photos, try to do what he did on the economy at the Georgetown University speech a few weeks ago, broaden this out, explain a bigger picture.
But I'm not sure that some of his fellow Democrats on the Hill want to hear big picture. They want to hear the specifics about what you're going to do with these -- with these terrorists.
COOPER: And then a lot of them are saying, not in my backyard.
Ed Henry at the White House, thank you, David Gergen and Jeff Toobin as well.
There is another major story out of Washington tonight involving credit card reform and carrying loaded guns in national parks. Now, you might think, well, that one has nothing to do with the other. But our elected representatives clearly think otherwise -- the Senate yesterday attaching gun legislation to the wildly popular credit card bill of rights, and, today, the House voting overwhelmingly to go along.
Believe it or not, this is business as usual in Washington, except, tonight, Joe Johns is "Keeping Them Honest."
JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Just imagine. Along with the sweeping views of natural beauty at Yellowstone and Yosemite, mixed in with history at Mount Rushmore, that some of the tourists toting diaper bags and binoculars might also be packing heat.
Extreme, perhaps, but absurd is in fact how it looks to some congressional Democrats. They're almost apoplectic about how the gun lobby slipped a provision into, of all things, the credit card reform bill, a provision that really has nothing to do with the rights of credit card holders and a lot to do with the right to bear arms.
REP. SAM FARR (D), CALIFORNIA: I think this is the most embarrassing amendment Congress has ever passed. To be -- to take a credit card bill and have the NRA use that as a vehicle to allow people to carry guns in national parks is just ridiculous. It makes no sense. It's not the purpose of national parks.
JOHNS: NRA, the National Rifle Association, and the rest of the gun lobby are, naturally, pretty happy about it. They say guys with guns have been getting locked up for years on parklands, and that it's just not right.
LARRY PRATT, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, GUN OWNERS OF AMERICA: This is something that's been an ongoing harassment. And it is an immoral policy, telling people you shouldn't have a gun; you shouldn't be able to protect yourself.
JOHNS: But how in the world did a credit card bill get so hijacked?
Senator Tom Coburn, who gets kudos back home in Oklahoma for standing up for the rights of gun owners, is the guy who put it in, with help from lots of Democrats who have learned the hard way that opposing gun rights can be a bad career move. Plus, the president wanted the credit card reform bill quickly approved.
REP. CAROLYN MALONEY (D), NEW YORK: It's regrettable that a -- a dangerous and totally unrelated provision was added to a very important consumer protection bill. And you should not pass a consumer bill in -- in the barrel of a gun. It is really wrong, but that's the way the system was.
JOHNS: And the White House never threatened to veto. The president doesn't want to set off gun owners, who already fear he will take away their weapons. So, if you can't beat them, join them.
Meanwhile, a lot of people on the Hill are now expecting more attempts to push through the pro-gun wish list.
FARR: I expect we will see gun amendments in almost every major bill. I -- I think it is the failure of the leadership in -- Democratic leadership in both the House and the Senate to allow these amendments to get adopted. It's -- it's embarrassing.
JOHNS: But, taking a step back and "Keeping Them Honest," Democrats are crying about being outmaneuvered by the gun lobby. But you should know this. The amendment was supported by 105 House Democrats. After all, it is not like someone put a gun to their heads on how to vote.
Joe Johns, CNN, Washington.
COOPER: We're going to have more on the whole notion of guns in national parks, if you think it's a good idea, or do you think national parks should be the last place for guns and folks walking around with weapons? We are going to dig deeper with Jeffrey Toobin, also a gun control advocate, and the senator who authored today's legislation.
We're getting some more information, or trying to get some more information, on this other breaking news story, four men arrested in connection with an alleged plot to set off a bomb outside a synagogue in the Riverdale section of Bronx. That's in New York City. We are going to try to get some new developments and bring that to you right after this commercial break.
Also tonight, late developments on where a 13-year-old boy who fled court-ordered cancer treatments may actually be. They think may know where he is. We will tell you that.
And your chance to weigh in on a gripping police chase. Have you seen this? The drastic action that took place at the end of it triggered a national outcry, now a national debate over police methods. Police officers almost hit right here in that video. And then wait until you see what happens at the end of this chase. We're going to talk with an expert on chases and chase psychology.
Send us a text message with your questions to 94553. The message has to start with the letters A.C., then a space, then your name and question. If you not include A.C. first with a space, we're not going to receive your text -- dramatic ending to this, disturbing ending as well.
Later, a very candid and funny conversation with the King, Larry King, a side of him I think you haven't seen before -- tonight on 360.
COOPER: More now on our breaking news, the arrest of four men after a long undercover investigation. They're accused of plotting to bomb a New York City synagogue and use Stinger missiles to shoot down Air National Guard aircraft in the area.
Joining us now on the phone, New York Congressman Peter King, who has got more information for us.
Congressman, what is the latest? What have you learned?
REP. PETER KING (R-NY), HOMELAND SECURITY COMMITTEE RANKING MEMBER: The arrests were made tonight.
This was a one-year investigation, as you said. This would have been a tragic loss of life, if the FBI and the NYPD had not been monitoring it. The explosives were C-4. As you said, it was a Stinger missile. It was -- explosives were going to be in cars parked outside a temple in Riverdale and a community center.
And then they actually had, I believe, a Stinger missile in the -- another car. They were going to take down Air National Guard planes at the Stewart Air Force Base. There were four people were involved, all Muslims. One is of Afghan descent. The others converted in prison.
And my understanding is, originally, this emanated from some involved with a mosque in Newburgh, New York. But the FBI has been on this. And, as I'm sure you know, the C-4 and the Stinger were both inoperative, because the -- these were captured -- these were actually purchased from the FBI, because the FBI was monitoring it.
But they were actually in the act tonight when they were captured. This went far beyond the talking stage.
COOPER: So -- so, they actually tried to purchase this material; they just happening to be purchasing it from the FBI?
P. KING: And they -- they had purchased it. They had it tonight. And they had it in the automobiles outside the -- the temple. And they had the Stinger missile. But it was the FBI working, obviously, undercover, sold them the C-4, provided them with the Stinger missile, sold it to them.
But -- and the FBI actually had them begin to carry out the operation tonight. This was beyond the talking stage. They waited until they were there actually with the explosives at the temple with the Stinger missile, and to go on to Stewart Air Force Base. So, tonight was the night the attacks were being carried out.
COOPER: Do we know if they were American citizens?
P. KING: My understanding is, they were all born in the United States. One of them is of Afghan descent, but I believe he was born here as well. So, all four of them were born here in the United States. That's my understanding.
COOPER: And, in terms of -- of the scale of this, why Stewart Air Base? That was another part of this plan, correct?
P. KING: Yes, to attack, my understanding, is Air National Guard planes coming out of Stewart Air Force Base.
All I know is that this, originally, part of the investigation stemmed from a mosque in Newburgh. So, Stewart Air Force Base is near Newburgh. Riverdale is relatively close to Newburgh. So, it was apparently, you know, a -- a regionally planned plot. I don't know the reason why they picked this temple or why they picked Stewart Air Force Base.
COOPER: And do we know if someone came to that temple to -- to recruit, or is this just something that grew out of that -- that particular facility? P. KING: You know, the FBI would have to give you all the details. I just know there was a mosque in -- in Newburgh had some involvement with this -- or at least the investigation had an involvement with the mosque in Newburgh. And these four were all Muslims themselves.
COOPER: When you heard of this, what did you think?
P. KING: Thank God for the FBI. Thank God for the NYPD.
And it shows what a real threat we face from homegrown terrorists. And it shows especially those of us living in New York. We live with this every day. We can rest secure tonight because this plot was stopped. But we don't know how many others are -- are out there. And it's why we can never let our guard down, and we have to be extremely vigilant and realize the true diabolic nature of this enemy.
COOPER: Congressman Peter King, particular you joining us tonight with the information. Thank you.
P. KING: You're very welcome.
COOPER: All right.
From terror, to Gitmo, to the economy, and the meltdown in Pakistan, we're looking at the extreme challenges facing President Obama in his second 100 days. We are going to preview a 360 special hour next.
Also, the police chase that is putting the issue of chase rage and brutality in the spotlight -- this video is kind of stunning. It stopped everybody in the newsroom today when we saw it for the first time. We will show you how it ended, what happened to the cops involved, and take your questions. Send us a text message to 94553. Remember, it has to start with the letters .A.C., then a space, then your name and question.
And, later, remember the girl from "Slumdog Millionaire"? Well, tonight, she is apparently homeless.
We will tell you why -- when 360 continues.
COOPER: President Obama speaks tomorrow on national security. You saw at the top he got a major rebuke today on Guantanamo. Iran tested a new ballistic missile as well. And the fighting in Pakistan has now driven -- get this -- some two million people from their homes. I want to repeat that number again: two million people driven from their homes because of the fighting in Pakistan. The U.N.'s now saying it's the biggest refugee crisis since the Rwanda genocide in 1994.
It's the grim backdrop to growing concerns that the Pakistani government is fiddling and building its nuclear arsenal while the Taliban advances.
Now, the president expected to talk about all of it tomorrow, and so is former Vice President Dick Cheney, as Ed Henry reported, taking on the president directly.
Tomorrow night, we will talk about all the major issues on Mr. Obama's plate, from the economy to Afghanistan.
But here's a preview. Take a look.
COOPER: Are we losing right now, Michael, in Afghanistan?
MICHAEL WARE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think it's too early to say we're losing, but we're not winning. That certainly can be said for sure.
And Fareed is right. You can do whatever you want in Afghanistan, but the true answer is going to lie in Pakistan. So, it's time to start looking at cutting serious deals, perhaps with some people that we don't particularly like. We saw that work in...
COOPER: Negotiations with the Taliban, you're saying?
WARE: With the Taliban, with some other elements.
And, principally, I think, in some fashion, we need to find an agreement with the dark heart of the ISI. That's the Pakistani intelligence agency, their version folks the CIA.
COOPER: Which actually set up the Taliban in the first place.
WARE: Set up the Taliban, Lashkar-e-Tayyaba. They're the ones, the hard-liners within that organization, who still provide the support and principally the sanctuary. So, until we find a way to put it in the ISI's interests to stop supporting these people, I don't see an end to this.
COOPER: Do you think the Pakistan government and the military is taking their own internal problems seriously enough? I mean, most of their forces have been, you know, pointed toward India for these last several years?
GERGEN: Well, to go back to the map, one of the issues that we have is, OK, so -- so, Fareed said, look, if you go after them here in Afghanistan, and they're going to -- they're going to come across the border into Pakistan and find safe havens. And we want to get the Pakistanis to go after them.
And our problem has been, the Pakistanis want to pay attention to India, which is over here. And one of the things the Bush administration -- or the Obama administration is trying to do is to persuade the Indians, especially with the new government, you know, lower the temperature here, so we can persuade the Pakistanis to pay more attention to -- to the people who are coming across and pay more attention to their other border.
But I think we are going to have in the next couple months -- as I understand it, we're on the verge of an offensive in Afghanistan, that there's going to be a three- or four-week effort to really bomb and go in heavily and -- and try to get the -- the Taliban on the run, and then come in with a counterinsurgency strategy that General Petraeus is bringing to the area.
FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN WORLD AFFAIRS ANALYST: If you want to complicate this even further, Anderson...
ZAKARIA: ... if you look at the map of Pakistan, we talk about these as almost ideological categories, the Taliban, you know, vs. the Pakistani military.
What's really going on here is, the Pashtuns in the tribal areas view this entire incursion as the Punjabis -- that is the part -- which is the largest part of Pakistan, trying to take over their part of Pakistan which has historically been left alone. So, there's a deep ethnic rivalry there. And we're going to have `to figure out how to deal with that.
COOPER: It's a fascinating, intelligent discussion. A reminder: You can more of it tomorrow night.
Two wars, broken economy, historic plans that President Obama says simply can't wait -- "Extreme Challenges," an A.C. 360 special tomorrow night, along with a full night of news, of course. It all gets under way at 10:00 Eastern time.
And just ahead, more on the new protections for Americans who carry plastic. What happens next to the credit card bill? When will the new rules actually kick in? We will tell you that.
Plus, new developments in the search for that Minnesota boy with cancer on the run from the treatments that doctors say he needs to stay alive and that will save his life -- are investigators actually closing in? They think they know where he is. We will tell you where.
And an explosive police chase video that cost five cops their jobs -- we will show you why. And we will get an expert opinion about what the officers did.
Text us about your questions about police officers. Do you think they crossed the line, if you have seen the video? Let us know.
COOPER: Updating our breaking news: the arrest of four men after a yearlong federal undercover investigation -- Four men, all Muslim, all reportedly Americans, busted this evening in connection with an alleged plot to bomb a synagogue in New York City and shoot down warplanes based at an Air National Guard station north of the city.
That is according to Congressman Peter King, who told us just moments ago that the men were in possession of bogus plastic explosives and a deactivated Stinger missile when they were arrested. They had obtained both, apparently, from a federal undercover agent and had planned to execute their alleged plot tonight.
Congressman King also told us that many lives have been saved as a result of these arrests. We will learn probably more details tomorrow.
Just ahead: my interview with the king of interviewers, Larry King. We talked today about his new autobiography and all the candid revelations in it.
First, Erica Hill joins us with a 360 bulletin -- Erica.
ERICA HILL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, the White House says President Obama will sign that credit card bill passed today by the House, and that he will sign it by Friday -- or on Friday, rather. The tougher credit card rules are a major loss to the banking industry. They will go into effect in February. The House also approved an unrelated measure allowing people to carry guns into national parks.
Nobel Peace Prize laureate Aung San Suu Kyi appearing robust and in good spirits on day three of her trial in Myanmar. That's according to a British envoy who was allowed to attend today's proceedings. The Myanmar opposition leader is charged with subversion. After days of international criticism, the junta appears to be easing access to her trial.
A Salt Lake City health official says a Utah died with chronic health problems died today from complications associated with swine flu. If the CDC confirms that case, it will bring the U.S. death toll from the virus to nine.
And, today, we learned a familiar voice is, sadly, no longer with us. For 32 years, Wayne Allwine gave Mickey Mouse the gift of speech.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS: Mickey, hello?
UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS: I'm so excited about tonight. Aren't you?
WAYNE ALLWINE, ACTOR: Minnie, you trying to get me killed?
UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS: Hmm. Maybe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HILL: Allwine had been the voice of Mickey since 1977. Just two others have held that job. His wife, Russi Taylor, is actually the current voice of Minnie Mouse. Both were named Disney legends last year.
Wayne Allwine died yesterday. He was 62.
COOPER: Wow. That's sad.
Join the live chat right now at AC360.com. Let us know your memories of Mickey Mouse or other cartoons you like.
Up next, the story of a boy sick with cancer and his mom on the run. Refusing chemotherapy for religious reasons. Tonight authorities say they could be in Mexico. We'll have the very latest.
And this incredible police chase caught on tape, and when you see how it ends. Five police officers now fired. We'll talk to a former cop about police brutality. Text us your questions: 94553. The message must start with the letters "AC," then a space and your name and question.
And a "Slumdog Millionaire" star now homeless, and she's not the first. We'll bring you the story, ahead.
COOPER: New developments tonight in the search for 13-year-old Daniel Hauser. Minnesota law enforcement officials say that Daniel and his mom Colleen have been spotted in Southern California, maybe headed to Mexico.
If you're new to this story, Daniel has cancer, a very treatable type of cancer, but he and his family have refused court-ordered treatments. Doctors say further delay could cost Daniel his life. A judge has ruled that he's a victim of medical neglect by his own parents. And instead of showing up for a court hearing yesterday, Daniel and his mom skipped town.
Randi Kaye tonight takes us "up close."
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): If this man knows where his dying son is, he isn't telling reporters much. All he let on is that he believes his wife and have left the country so 13-year- old Daniel Hauser can avoid court-ordered chemotherapy for his cancer.
ANTHONY HAUSER, FATHER OF CANCER PATIENT: I think it was a spur of the moment.
KAYE: Anthony Hauser is cooperating, says the Brown County sheriff who late tonight announced mother and son had been spotted in Southern California.
SHERIFF RICHARD HOFFMAN, BROWN COUNTY, MINNESOTA: We just know that they did travel to the Los Angeles area.
KAYE: The sheriff says authorities believe Mrs. Hauser and her son are either heading to Mexico or may even already be there. FBI and customs agents are helping in the search.
The sheriff would not say where the tip came from, but he says he's confident it's them.
Investigators are trying to determine if the boy's mother, Colleen Hauser, even had a passport. Daniel's father told the judge he last saw his wife Monday evening. Daniel's father says he wants his son home.
A. HAUSER: Definitely love to see him.
KAYE: He even says now he'd be open up to a combination of low- dose chemotherapy and alternative remedies.
Daniel was diagnosed with Hodgkin's lymphoma in January, and doctors say his cancer has spread. With chemotherapy and radiation, they say there's a 90 percent chance he'll survive.
The Hausers are a Catholic family but like the Native American tribe they follow, the Nemenhah Band, they only believe in natural remedies. Mrs. Hauser explained before she took off.
COLLEEN HAUSER, MOTHER OF CANCER PATIENT: This is the fever, viral recovery, Echinacea.
KAYE (on camera): Instead of chemo, Daniel's father says he's been treated with pure oils and fungus killers. His diet: fish, fresh vegetables, fruit and ionized water, which the family believes kills cancer cells.
They may have learned that from the founder of the Nemenhah band, who reportedly cured his cancer eight years ago using special mushrooms.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The basic premises is first do no harm.
KAYE: To join Nemenhah, according to its Web site, the Hausers like anyone else would have had to pay $250. Plus, an annual fee of $100. Money well spent to save their son's life? Daniel's future depends on it.
Randi Kaye, CNN, New York.
COOPER: Millions of Americans use alternative and nontraditional treatments, including many cancer patients. It's a multibillion- dollar industry, but are all these remedies, many of them heavily marketed, actually helping people? Could they be harming some? And how many have actually been tested in vigorous studies?
For doctors who treat cancer, it all comes down to evidence. But for patients, the choice isn't always clear. Let's dig deeper now with 360 M.D. Sanjay Gupta.
Sanjay, how do doctors look at alternative medicine, especially in a case like this?
SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: First of all, there's a difference between alternative medicine and what is known as integrative or complimentary medicine. Alternative medicine really is what is says: it's an alternative to traditional therapies. Not that traditional therapies aren't good and I think doctors are willing to look at other options.
But, you know, a lot of times when therapies are good, such as the case with Hodgkin's lymphoma, you've got up to a 95 percent survival cure rate for a disease like this. And you have something that's proven to work. So I think they're going to look at alternative remedies, probably not so favorably.
On the other hand, the integrative and complimentary things to mitigate side effects of the treatments, to mitigate some of those toxic effects from chemotherapy, those are something I think a lot of doctors embrace.
COOPER: Does the medical community, though, really believe that some non-conventional treatments can work. And if they can, what type of cases? We've been getting a lot of e-mails from viewers very skeptical of modern medicine, traditional medicine, doctors and the pharmaceutical industry. And they say, "Look, you guys are just protecting your own interests."
GUPTA: Yes. I mean, there's a lot of disease processes and cancers for which there's not good traditional therapy. And so I think it's -- you can't lump everything together as far as traditional versus nontraditional.
But I do think there's some instances where alternative, complimentary, integrative medicine has worked, can work. There's an entire branch at the National Institutes of Health dedicated to just studying this.
COOPER: When considering alternative therapies, who should a patient talk to about options and what kind of questions do you ask?
GUPTA: Well, you know, and this may sound a bit simplistic, but I think they should talk to their doctor. Now, if they're unhappy with their doctor, they should find another doctor, a doctor who may be more open minded to some of the things that they're suggesting.
Having said that, there's also doctors who specialize in integrative medicine. So depending on what's going on specifically, that may be somebody you can talk to, as well.
There are some specific things you want to ask any time you're considering a therapy. What are the risks and what are the benefits of this? You also want to ask other questions: will it somehow interfere with conventional treatments? Anderson, you may know this, but grapefruit juice can actually interfere with all sorts of different medicines out there. Grapefruit juice.
COOPER: Yes. I think Lipitor which I take... GUPTA: That's right.
COOPER: ... you can't have grapefruit juice.
GUPTA: That's right. So you know, here's something that we learned over time. That's something you need to know. And there's always other sorts of alternative therapies which may interfere with the other medications you're taking. So I think you have to be informed as possible, no matter your treatment choice.
COOPER: All right. Sanjay, good advice. Thanks.
GUPTA: Thanks, Anderson.
COOPER: Coming up next on 360, five cops fired after a shocking police case captured on video. The high-speed pursuit leads to a wild ending you really have to see. We're going to have it for you coming up next. Text us your questions about the police officers about this chase to 94553. The message has to start with the letters "AC," then an space and your name and a question. If you don't include "AC" first with a space, we're not going to receive the text.
Also, tonight, the King is in the studio for a change. Larry's the guest. I'm asking him the questions as he talks about his life, his loves, his most memorable moments, and his new book and Katie Couric. We'll be right back.
COOPER: In tonight's "Crime & Punishment" report, a violent police chase caught on tape. It ends in the brutal beating of the suspect and the firing of five police officers.
Now, it happened in Birmingham, Alabama, in January of '08, but the video only became public recently. And a lot of people want to know why it took so long to surface.
We warn you: the images are graphic. Recorded by a police dash cam, we see patrol cars chasing this white minivan. High-speed pursuit. Very dangerous. One point: the driver of the van, Anthony Warren, appears to try to run over -- see that? That was a police officer he almost hit. Injured the police officer's leg.
Warren was wanted for drug activity. And then collides with a police car. That's coming up in just a few moments. And then watch what happens after the car rolls over.
It's -- the minivan basically slams into the side of the road, rolled over. Warren gets ejected from the van. That's about to happen. Take a look. See? He falls right out of the vehicle. Thrown to the ground. Now, he appears unconscious. He's not moving. And police officers just descend on him, punching him, attacking him, kicking him multiple times. Disturbing video.
Warren was arrested and earlier this year convicted of assault connected to that chase and sentenced to 20 years in prison. Today, Birmingham's police chief said five police officers were fired with 50 years of combined service for what he called ten seconds of injustice. Criminal charges may also follow. The officers are appealing.
To try to understand what exactly happened here, why the officers reacted the way they did, I'm joined by Eugene O'Donnell, New York state police trainer and professor at John Jay College of Criminal Justice.
You trained police in New York. How do you think this event was handled?
EUGENE O'DONNELL, POLICE TRAINER AND PROFESSOR, JOHN JAY COLLEGE OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE: Well, I think everything is context. You have in this situation a chase that went on for 50 miles, speeds of 100 miles an hour. It appears this individual tried to run the police officer down. The officers' colleagues clearly saw that.
This is one of the hardest things to train for, what you do after that kind of adrenaline rush, that kind of chase where peoples' lives are literally hanging in the balance and trying to make sure police officers are using no more force than is necessary. They're not punishing. They're simply using force to defend themselves or put the suspect in custody.
That said, I think it's pretty clear that, when the officers are using force at the end of this incident, as soon as it becomes clear to them that he's not resisting, they basically depart the scene. They leave. So any suggestion that they used more force than is necessary I don't think is necessarily borne out by the video. After all, we have many cases in which people appear to be acquiescing and then resist right after that.
COOPER: But it's hard to look -- I mean, they must have seen this guy being flipped like a rag doll out of this flipping vehicle. He's lying there completely motionless, and the guy just goes over and pummels him. He doesn't -- he's not checking for any -- to even see if the guy's alive or not. And all of them are just pummeling him. You see something different?
O'DONNELL: Well, what I see is he appears to be lifeless. There are many training examples of people that feign compliance.
Don't forget, this is an incident in which he had every opportunity to pull over and stop. He even went to the point of almost killing a police officer and continued in his path. And so it's not wholly unreasonable for the cops to think that the incident is not necessarily over when it appears on video, and you get a chance to review it months after, it appeared to be over. What when did the cops know through their eyes, seeing what they saw under those circumstances? That has to be the crucial factor.
COOPER: It's -- I mean, one, it's a little hard to believe this guy would have the presence of mind to be feigning something after being flipped out of a rolling vehicle and clearly -- but regardless of all of that, should the police officers have -- if they believed he was feigning, is jumping on him and pummeling him the best response? Or is maybe going after him with guns drawn from a distance and kind of seeing the situation? What would you recommend?
O'DONNELL: Well, I think people should look -- take a long view, not only of the video that's there but the video that's missing. This is a very long event which ends in that -- in that situation.
But the reality is the cops had no -- no way to tell for sure that he was acquiescing. There are many, many examples of individuals who are shot multiple times and who still, literally in their dying moments, are able to injure or kill police officers. That's not an unheard of circumstance.
I think if you look at what they're doing, they're trying to identify where his hands are. They're trying to get a view of whether he can be -- to cause further damage. But once they are clear that he doesn't, I think the remarkable thing is that they walk away almost as a group and don't inflict any more blows to him. Once they're certain that he doesn't present a threat.
COOPER: We have a text question from one of our viewers. Dulci from Colorado asks, "What's the legal definition for proportional force when dealing with a resistant subject?" How do police decide how to respond to a situation?
O'DONNELL: That's the problem. The problem is when you have somebody who, for a considerable period of time, is not responding to the request to pull over, when is it clear that this person is compliant? That is one of the more difficult equations and calculations the cops have to make. It's not always clear.
Just because you show this video in which it is clear that this man was obviously seriously injured, there are many others examples in which people -- sometimes they say, "I'm coming along, I'm coming along," even as they're resisting.
So some of these offenders are quite skilled at appearing to be responsive to police commands or appearing to be injured, appearing to not be able to get up and then sometimes they do -- they are able to inflict damage on officers.
An important point to consider. Eugene O'Donnell, thanks. Let us know what you think about the video and about what you think happening now, AC360.com.
Coming up next, the King and I. That's right. I sat down with Larry King today to talk about his incredible life, his new autobiography, which covers everything, including of course, women. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: You write, "She lifted her foot toward my crotch and was starting to play around." What?
LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": She was.
COOPER: How's that for a tease? Find out who Larry was talking about there.
KING: And a Hollywood story turned tragic. Tonight, a "Slumdog Millionaire" star is homeless, reportedly. We'll tell you who's to blame. We'll be right back.
COOPER: After 40,000 interviews, 50 years of broadcasting, Larry King remains the master of the mike. He's told us many fascinating stories over the decades, and now Larry is telling his own story. In a new autobiography, "My Remarkable Journey" covers it all, from his childhood, his struggles, to his amazing career.
The man, the legend joins me now.
Larry, thanks for being on the program.
KING: Great to be on 360.
COOPER: Why write this book now?
KING: Anderson, frankly, I turned 75. When they planned it, I was going to be 75. And they said, "It's about time you really set it all down."
And frankly, I missed it. We could have doubled the size. And then this -- the reason I wrote it was think of all the people -- you'll get there.
COOPER: I don't know that I can do this another 35 years or whatever it would be to reach 75.
KING: The Sinatras and the presidents. To walk in that swirl, and I'm still a lot of me is a kid in Brooklyn.
COOPER: Let me run down some of the names and just give me the immediate response. Frank Sinatra.
KING: Larger than life. Vastly important. And every essence of what you want in a good interview.
COOPER: Hillary Clinton.
KING: Smart as a whip. Funny. And incredible -- should come across more, great sense of humor.
COOPER: Marlon Brando?
KING: Marlon Brando.
COOPER: Is he the only guy you kissed on air?
KING: I can't stop thinking about it. Brando was a piece of work.
COOPER: My mom dated him briefly. Well, I don't know date. I think it was like a one-night date. Anyway, I digress.
KING: He would have loved your mom.
COOPER: Well, I think he did. Ted Turner.
KING: A great boss, because there's nothing in him that was a suit. He was the opposite of a suit. He made quick decisions. He never said, "I'll get back to you."
COOPER: I -- Jack Gray and I went through the book. We came up with a couple of little known things.
KING: Jack Gray. I've got to meet Jack Gray. I've been reading his blog his wrote about me.
COOPER: You write about going out with Katie Couric a couple years ago in Washington. And you say, and I quote, page 127: "she invited back to the apartment. I remember thinking, this could be good. This could be good."
KING: It could be.
COOPER: How did that work out?
KING: Wonderful time. Worked out terribly. Because she had a roommate, and I think the roommate was Wendy Walker, who's now my executive producer. And when we got to the door -- I like Katie. We've been friends over the years. And she was really pretty. Still is.
And we get to the door, she just turned around and said, "Kiss me on the cheek," I think.
I said, "Can I come in?"
"Well -- I have a roommate." Wendy could have -- she wasn't there that night...
COOPER: History could have been different. All right, page 162. You write about you were in a cab with Jessica Hahn...
COOPER: ... heading back to her hotel. Basically, at the height of the whole Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker scandal.
KING: The hype.
COOPER: And she starts getting a little frisky.
KING: A little frisky.
COOPER: You write, "She lifted her foot toward my crotch and was starting to play around." What?
KING: That's what she was -- I'm in a cab, a limo or a cab ride. I'm sitting there, had to be a limo. There was a seat facing. We were going to drop her at her hotel and go on to mine.
And then she starts this. And I -- you know, when I get something like that that hasn't happened to me much, it doesn't turn me on. I have to -- no. The reason is...
COOPER: Did you tell her you had a roommate?
KING: I have to be the pursuer.
COOPER: OK. Too forward for you? Too much?
KING: Oh, yes. I've got to be -- got to be -- it's my ball game.
COOPER: So to speak.
KING: Keep it up, Anderson.
COOPER: OK. Page 176. You write that during the O.J. Simpson trial you dated a jury consultant for the defense team and a publicist for the prosecution.
KING: Those were the wildest days, because I was the most popular guy at the network. Get her. Get him. Get her. And some days...
COOPER: And you got her and her. And you write that they didn't even know about each other.
KING: Never -- well, what was I going to say? Oh, by the way, I've got a date tonight with the...
COOPER: What do you want people to take away from this book?
KING: I want them, first, to laugh. Half the book is funny stories. All of them happened.
And I want them to get a more insight into me. And to learn a little bit about interviewing styles. And what -- maybe be better informed when they watch my show as to how I do what I do. And to have an enjoyable time. If I could safely say so, it's a good read.
COOPER: It is a good read. I've read it myself. And I appreciate you being honest. Greet have you.
KING: Thanks, Anderson. My pleasure.
COLMES: Much more of my interview with Larry tomorrow. I love that.
Go to our blog, AC360.com, to watch Larry dish out more details on the famous people he's interviewed and ridden in cars with perhaps.
Still to come, what is billed as the world's smallest cat tonight.
First, Erica Hill has a "360 Bulletin" -- Erica.
HILL: Anderson, former House speaker Newt Gingrich taking aim at current house Speaker Nancy Pelosi. Gingrich says Pelosi should be replaced following the allegations that the CIA didn't tell her about harsh interrogation techniques in 2003.
Here's what he had to say today on ABC's "Good Morning America."
NEWT GINGRICH, FORMER SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: I think the Democrats should get a new speaker and the reason is the speaker is third in line to be president. She has a unique responsibility for national security. If you were a CIA agent today and you were told, "Go brief Nancy Pelosi," how could you have any sense of confidence?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HILL: New Hampshire's effort to be the sixth state to legalize same-sex marriage hitting a snag today. The governor asked for changes to the bill, and the vote in the state house fell short of approval. Lawmakers will try to negotiate a new measure and vote again.
And "Slumdog Millionaire" star Rubina Ali homeless tonight. Railway authorities in India raised the family's home along with 17 others today, saying that the shacks were illegally built on railroad property.
This may sound familiar. Ali were actually at home when the bulldozers arrived. The reason it may sound familiar is last week, another home of another child who starred in the Oscar-winning film was also demolished and also, we're told, due to illegal construction, Anderson.
COOPER: All right. It's sad what's happening to all those kids.
Coming up, "The Shot" is next. The 1 1/2-pound pat. Is this cat the world's smallest? We'll find out after the break. Pretty small.
And at the top of the hour, breaking news. Coming to America. Terror detainees facing a trial as President Obama's delivered a stunning defeat by his fellow Democrats. We'll have the latest on both fronts ahead.
COOPER: For tonight's "Shot" I give you Bitsy, a teeny-weenie thing. But is Bitsy really the world's smallest cat?
Looks like a kitten to me, but her owners say she's full-sized feline measuring just six inches long and weighing a mere pound and a half. To me, still looks like a kitten.
HILL: She does looks like a kitten. You know what the telling sign is, I think? Her ears.
LOOKA: She's got the attention of the Guinness Book of World Records. Which is -- this is all happening in Pensacola. But since -- yes. We're going to see if they think she's the world's smallest.
LOOKA: Again, she looks like a kitten.
HILL: Yes. Although her ears do look like they fit her a little bit more than a kitten's ears tend to fit a kitten, if you know what I'm saying.
COOPER: We'll leave it up to, you know...
HILL: We'll leave it up to the good folks. They're professionals. They know what they're doing.
COOPER: All right.
HILL: We know nothing about cats.
COOPER: You can see all the mot -- we're dog people. You can see all the most recent "Shots" on the Web site at AC360.com.
I have a cat, too.
COOPER: Coming up at the top of the hour, serious stuff. The latest on White House plans to try the first Guantanamo detainee here in America and President Obama's big defeat on closing the camp.
We'll be right back.
COOPER: Tonight, breaking news on two fronts, both terror related. The first item right now here in New York. Four men have been arrested in connection with an alleged plot to set off a bomb outside a synagogue in the Riverdale section of the Bronx.
In addition, federal prosecutors alleging the four planned to shoot down military planes from a New York Air National Guard base at Stewart Airport.
The arrest came after a long-running FBI undercover operation that began in Newburg about an hour north of the city. It's where Stewart Airport is located.