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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Holy Hypocrisy?; New Surgery for Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords
Aired May 18, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everyone.
We begin tonight with breaking news, pictures just coming in from the West Coast, a military jet engulfed in flames at the end of the runway at Point Mugu Naval Air Station. It's just up the coast from Los Angeles, south of Santa Barbara. The plane is a military version of the old Boeing 707.
A public information officer at the field telling affiliate KTLA the plane was being operated by a contractor called Omega. According to affiliate KABC, it crashed on what appears to have been an aborted takeoff. There are skid marks nearby. We don't yet know went wrong, nor do we know if weather played a role. There are very high winds in the area right now.
We do know the crew of three managed to escape with just minor injuries. We are of course going to bring your more details of this as we learn more throughout this hour.
Now tonight, we begin "Keeping Them Honest," with a statement so outrageous, it would be laughable, except it concerns and tries to gloss over systematic killings by the regime in Syria, much of those -- many of those killings caught on camera.
Syria's dictator, Bashar al-Assad, today saying authorities have made -- quote -- "some mistakes" -- unquote -- in their handling of anti-government protests. Made some mistakes, he said.
Today, President Obama slapped sanctions on Assad and six aides. Tomorrow, he is expected to make Syria a major part of his address on the region.
Tonight, we will show you shocking evidence why, not, as the Syrian dictator claims, of just some mistakes, but evidence of murder. More than 850 people have been killed since March, according to Human Rights Watch. How many in prison and tortured, we have no way of knowing. Innocent civilian protesters gunned down in the streets, shot dead trying to retrieve the dead and now something even more barbaric.
This is video that claims to be from Daraa posted online. As such, we can't independently confirm the specifics, but it's pretty plain to see. I want to show you an ambulance in the middle of sniper fire. You can clearly see the red crescent painted on the side. You can clearly see a driver in medical garb with a surgical mask sitting up front.
Now, we can see it. So could the snipers, and they didn't need a scope to verify what they were looking at. It could not be plainer. Ambulances, by any rule of war and simple human decency, are supposed to be off-limits. But watch what happens.
What you're seeing are snipers opening up on a clearly marked ambulance, targeting it, nothing accidental about it, no stray shots, bullets aimed directly at the front windows, directly at the ambulance drivers inside. The driver, as you can see, is hit. We don't know if he's dead or wounded. We don't know -- know exactly what happened to him.
We do know from experience that Syrian snipers target people trying to retrieve the dead and the wounded. Those aren't mistakes. That is murder. We know they target people at funerals. Not some mistakes -- that's murder. We know they shell their own cities -- not mistakes, murder.
And as video shows, they shoot teens and children. Watch. We can't show you the rest of this tape. It shows another, much younger child horribly wounded, probably killed. Again, these are not mistakes. This is murder.
Let's bring in Jill Dougherty, also Elliott Abrams, a veteran of the Reagan and George W. Bush administrations and currently a senior fellow for Middle Eastern studies at the Council on Foreign Relations.
Elliott, obviously, some tough sanctions announced today. Maybe the president will have more to say. But how much can be done? How much can be accomplished? What can -- what else can be done to stop these killings?
ELLIOTT ABRAMS, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: Two things. First, we need to be clearer that Assad has got to go. The president said that about Mubarak and Gadhafi. He still hasn't said it about Assad. I hope he does tomorrow, but the sooner the better.
We need more sanctions and we need more Europeans to join us in them, because we have got to get the richer people, the elites, particularly the Sunni elites in Syria, to turn against him, and the way to do that is through the economy.
COOPER: Jill, do we know what the president is going to say tomorrow?
JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN FOREIGN AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: We think it's going to be tougher. There could be a good portion of it on Syria.
I don't think, judging by what we have heard, he's going to go as far as Elliott is saying and say, you know, you have outlived your usefulness. You have to step down.
The sanctions really did that. Or at least that's the message. But, you know, look at what they said, Anderson, in the sanctions announcement today, to go for a political transition or leave. They're still leaving that window open for political transition, even though the United States has no idea and no -- there's no belief at all that he's going to -- that Assad is going to change.
COOPER: Elliott, I mean, the White House in the past, toward the end of the Mubarak regime, called on Mubarak to step down, Gadhafi, obviously. Why hasn't the president made the same demand of Assad?
ABRAMS: Well, I think one thing is, they still believe in this reformer nonsense. You have shown these pictures.
This is a regime that survives by murdering its own population. But it's been very slow to get particularly Secretary Clinton to turn away from this idea that he's secretly a reformer.
The other thing is, they're afraid of what comes next. There's the bogeyman out there of the Muslim Brotherhood taking over Syria. No one ever produces any evidence for why that would happen, but that's the other argument...
COOPER: So, you have no concerns about what comes next? Because we have all seen in many -- look what's happening in Egypt right now. Things are not turning out necessarily the way certainly many of the secular reformers wanted.
ABRAMS: Well, how much worse can it get than this regime? It's murdering its own people. It is Iran's greatest ally. It is an enemy of Israel.
It is trying to take over and as it used to have control over Lebanon. It is a regime that was building a nuclear weapon with the help of North Korea. It was a regime that funneled jihadis into Iraq to kill as many Americans as possible. What is going to be worse than that?
COOPER: Jill, we have seen ambassadors pulled from other countries that are in a lot better shape than Syria is right now in terms of violence directed at its people. Any discussion of removing the ambassador?
DOUGHERTY: No. In fact, we talked to two State Department officials today who said they're not thinking about that.
And the rationale they usually use in this case is having an ambassador there, even if you can send a signal by yanking him out, it still gives you a chance to talk directly with the regime, deliver a message, that type of thing, maybe even a harder message. But they're not talking about pulling him out yet.
Elliott, is there some...
COOPER: Sorry. Go ahead, Elliott. ABRAMS: I was just going to jump in and say that's a mistake, because, as I talk to Syrians, what they're worried about is, why is the American government in favor of Assad staying?
We need to do something symbolically that proves to Syrians we're on their side, not on his side. Pulling the ambassador is probably the easiest symbolic move to make that clear to them.
COOPER: Elliott Abrams, I appreciate you being on the show, Jill Dougherty as well. Thanks very much.
ABRAMS: Thank you.
COOPER: Again, we will continue to follow this tomorrow, when the president is supposed to speak about it.
A lot more news out of the Middle East tonight. There's a new Osama bin Laden audiotape that's now making the rounds. In it, the terror leader talks about the so-called Arab spring. The recording was reportedly made about a week before he was killed by U.S. special forces. The release of the tape has obviously been rumored for a couple of weeks. And, as I said, when we first heard of this, probably about two weeks ago -- I'm not going to play you this tape on this program.
We would rather remember the victims who bin Laden massacred or the brave men and women who are fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan still to this day than listen to bin Laden's cowardly voice recorded in his hole in Abbottabad.
Let us know what you think. We're on Facebook. Follow me on Twitter @AndersonCooper. I will be tweeting tonight.
Just ahead also, the new report years in the making on sex abuse in the Catholic Church. Victims are furious about this report, though, and why some are calling the new report garbage. We're "Keeping Them Honest."
And later: new revelations about Arnold Schwarzenegger's infidelities, including details about the woman he fathered a son with and his other behavior.
Also breaking news: how Dominique Strauss-Kahn, the global banker accused of attempted rape, might be getting out of jail tomorrow -- details on that.
And, of course, we will continue to monitor the military plane crash on the West Coast for any new developments, putting out the fire there.
We will be right back.
COOPER: Well, you're looking at the video just in, a burning jet at the far end of the runway at Point Mugu Naval Air Station in Ventura County, just up the coast from Los Angeles. Trying to put out the flames there from the air.
The base's information officer telling local affiliate KTLA the jet was being operated by a contractor called Omega. The plane crashed on takeoff, heavily loaded with fuel. That's why they have been trying to put out the flames now. Something went wrong. Takeoff was aborted. There are skid marks veering off the runway. Three crew members were on board. We're told all managed to escape the wreckage and the flames. Again, we have no more details of exactly what happened, what went wrong. We will keep following it.
Now, though, "Keeping Them Honest," for years, victims of priestly sex abuse have been demanding answers from the Catholic Church and accountability. Well, today, the church came out with a report that's supposed to be the most comprehensive study of priest abuse. But tonight, many survivors of priest abuse say it's anything but that. They say the study plays word games to gloss over the problems and places blame on society, instead of where they say it belongs, on a church that tolerated, harbored, and covered up for predatory priests for years, offenders like the priests who abused Bernie McDaid and Olan Horne.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BERNIE MCDAID, SEX ABUSE SURVIVOR: I was an altar boy. At the end of a mass, he would grab you in the sacristy.
COOPER: When your father finally -- when you and your friends finally told, I believe it was your father, and he went to the church, the church actually just moved this priest to another parish.
And, Olan, that's where you come in. You had the unfortunate circumstances of being in the next parish that this priest, Reverend Birmingham, came to; Is that correct?
OLAN HORNE, SEX ABUSE SURVIVOR: Absolutely true.
I mean, this gentleman had lax supervision, and he was moved continuously. I mean, from his first assignment in Sudbury, Massachusetts, he is moved each and every time due to these accusations, which he agreed to. There's no doubt about it, Anderson, that there was lax supervision involved. And there was absolutely in place -- this man had a great career as a pedophile, due to that lax supervision.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: How many times have we heard this story?
This new report was commissioned by American Catholic bishops, conducted by researchers at John Jay College of Criminal Justice and funded in part by the Justice Department. It concluded that celibacy could not be blamed for the abuse epidemic. It also concluded that gay priests were no more likely to abuse than heterosexual ones.
More controversially, however, the report says there's no single reason behind the abuse, but it did blame an era. Listen. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAREN TERRY, JOHN JAY COLLEGE OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE: The abuse is a result of a complex interaction of factors. And there are a number of social forces that were taking place in the '60s and '70s that had an effect on a certain group of individual priests who had some vulnerabilities that might have led to that abusive behavior.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: So, they're basically kind of talking about social attitudes in the '60s and '70s. Many abuse victims are outraged by this report.
Barbara Blaine of the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests, a group called SNAP, she says: "The Catholic hierarchy wants us to believe that the abuse of children by clerics is situational. It's not. It's systemic." She went to call the report garbage in, garbage out because the report itself was paid for by bishops who also provided the raw data.
They're furious too that report says that over the last half- century, less than 5 percent of priests could be considered pedophiles. Now, what's interesting, when you look at the report's definition of pedophilia, the report authors use a nonstandard definition of pedophilia, using age 10 as the cutoff.
The American Psychiatric Association's "Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders," or "DSM," classifies a prepubescent child as age 13 or younger, not age 10 or younger.
So the church's report is saying that a large number of the abuse victims were not prepubescent, and therefore, their rapists were not pedophiles. If the report had used the "DSM" definition, a vast majority of the victims would have been considered prepubescent children.
In any case, there were plenty of teen victims as well. It's not really clear why abusing a 13-year-old is any different from abusing an 11-year-old or a 10-year-old. It's a crime in any case. And critics say the study minimized how those crimes were handled. The church, they say, habitually covers up and has a credibility problem.
In Philadelphia -- you're looking at pictures -- protesters took to the streets recently after a grand jury investigation revealed that dozens of apparent abusers remained in the archdiocese and at least 37 priests with -- quote -- "substantial evidence of abuse" have been kept in assignments that expose them to kids.
Some have since been placed on administrative leave. And just two days ago, the Vatican ordered bishops to draft tough new guidelines on predatory priests. However, the edict fails to put any sanctions on bishops who don't follow the rules.
Joining us now is Father Robert Hoatson, a former abuse victim himself who is in the process of resigning from the Catholic priesthood. He's founder of the group Road to Recovery, but he is currently a priest.
Thank you so much for being with us.
This report basically embraces what some are calling the "blame Woodstock" explanation, that priests were unprepared to deal with the social and sexual upheaval of the '60s and '70s, and that is what contributed to them abusing children.
Do you buy that?
FATHER ROBERT HOATSON, FOUNDER, ROAD TO RECOVERY: It's absolutely absurd, Anderson. The fact that the Catholic Church is now going to blame a sociological phenomena on the internal cover-up, deception and absolute massive serial abuse of children is absurd.
And I'm ashamed -- shame -- shame on John Jay College for engaging in an attempt to help the Catholic Church continue this cover-up and deception. And I'm very surprised that a noted university would do such a thing.
COOPER: Do you find it strange that they use this different -- they use a prepubescent child as only 10 or below. And, therefore, they can say, well, less than 5 percent of the priests who were involved were actually pedophiles, because they weren't abusing people under the age of 10.
But if you use the more standard definition, which is 13 and below, then the numbers skyrocket.
HOATSON: Well, I'm not going to use any numbers that the church uses or gives.
The American Psychiatric Association says a pubescent child is somebody 13 and under. And a post-pubescent child is someone over 13. It doesn't matter. Anybody who abuses a child under the age of 18, in my book and in the book of the FBI -- Ken Lanning, who was the FBI supervisor of sex crimes for 30 years, says anyone who abuses a child under 18 is a pedophile.
COOPER: The other thing is, this report seems to kind of say that these cases exploded in the '60s and '70s. But I'm not sure that's really true. We know about them a lot more from the '60s and '70s because the people who were kids then have now been able to break the silence and come forward. But these kind of -- this kind of abuse probably has gone on for decades in the church, long before the '60s and '70s.
HOATSON: Oh, not decades -- centuries.
And unless we do a complete study of the church from the early days of the church, when people were writing about pedophilia and the abuse of children -- we have to take a longer view of this. The '40s and '50s, the priests who abused in the '50s, are we going to say that they were influenced by Sputnik? Are we going to blame the '40s abusers on World War II? COOPER: There are some who are defending the church who actually still continue to blame gay priests, that this is something about homosexuality. What do you think about that?
HOATSON: Well, thankfully, this report has put that -- hopefully that to rest. Homosexuals do not abuse children, as heterosexuals do not abuse children, in general.
Some homosexuals do and some heterosexuals do. But the fact that the church has blamed this -- or many in the church have blamed this on homosexuals is absurd, unfair, and unjust. And it just adds to the arrogance of the way the church approaches the treatment of people that they seem to want to marginalize.
COOPER: Do you think the crisis is over in terms -- the church has talked about it a lot more in recent years. They have paid out a lot of claims. They say they have new rules, new procedures. What have you seen?
HOATSON: Oh, the church -- the crisis is not over. We're still in it. I get two to six calls a week from new victims.
The victims from the '90s are beginning to come out. What we know, that most people can't even begin to deal with this until their 30s, 40s, maybe even 50s. We have people in their 80s who are coming forward. The structures of the church essentially have not changed.
COOPER: So, and is that what you blame for the -- why -- because in the report, they're -- the church is saying, well, look, this like -- you know, look, there is abuse in schools, there is abuse in the Boy Scouts. We're no different.
Do you think there is something different? And what do you think is the cause of this?
The Boy Scouts and the schools and all other institutions deal with this. The church has not dealt with it. They have covered it up. They have secreted it. And they have put it on the back burner, so that the image of the church, which is to be defended at all costs, is the most important thing that the bishops consider at this time.
COOPER: You really believe that; you think they care more about the image?
HOATSON: Absolutely. And that seems to be very clear. In the latest Philadelphia grand jury report just a few months ago, Seth Williams, the Philadelphia DA, said that. They said they were more interested in protecting the church than in helping children who were abused.
COOPER: So, what do you want to see happen now?
HOATSON: We need a massive overhaul, a massive restructuring of the Catholic Church. The monarchy has to be dismantled. The hierarchy has to go. And the faithful have to reclaim their church. We are not going to see any change unless these massive overhauls take place.
COOPER: Father Robert Hoatson, I appreciate your perspective. Thank you.
HOATSON: Thank you, Anderson.
COOPER: Coming up: an update on Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords' recovery from getting shot in the head today. Giffords had surgery on her skull. Dr. Sanjay Gupta is going to join us and actually show you the procedure of how they take off part of the skull. It's something Sanjay does. He is a neurosurgeon. He does this quite frequently. He's going to show you how it works in the operating room. It's actually really fascinating. You should stick around for that.
And, later, new revelations about Arnold Schwarzenegger's -- well, the woman he had a child with. Plus, Maria Shriver making an appearance in Chicago -- all of that ahead.
COOPER: Well, a big step forward in the recovery and rehabilitation of Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords.
You are going to recall, of course, she was shot in the head at a constituent meeting in Arizona back in January, severely wounded. Six people were killed in that attack.
Well, today, Giffords underwent surgery to replace a piece of her skull that doctors removed because of brain swelling. A hospital says she's doing well tonight.
A short time ago, I spoke with 360 M.D. Sanjay Gupta about the procedure.
COOPER: Sanjay, you perform these kind of surgeries every week. You did a demonstration in the O.R. on exactly how much of her skull had to be originally removed to save her life. I just want to take a quick look at that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: So, one thing to keep in mind, that the brain, unlike other organs in the body, if it starts to swell, it's really got nowhere to go. It can only go downwards, and that's what's called a herniation.
And the second part is simply to try and connect these holes.
This is the last cut now we're making. One of the things that's really important is when you take this bone out, you want to make sure that you're protecting the brain underneath and go ahead and lift that bone right out of there, and this is the area where the brain is actually allowed to swell now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: So, for four months, she's been living and traveling with that much of her head removed?
GUPTA: Yes. And surprisingly to a lot of people, this is not that uncommon a situation.
Let me just show you again. You just saw that. But just again to give you an idea of how much we're talking about here, that's how much. It's a significant portion of the left side, and the bone piece itself is about that size.
So, it's -- you know, it's something that's done quite frequently. And, as you might guess, the skin is closed over this area, but there's a concavity.
COOPER: So the skin grows back over it? Or they graft skin on?
GUPTA: Well, the skin -- there's an incision made. And then when the -- after the operation is performed, the skin is brought back together...
COOPER: OK. They fold the skin back.
GUPTA: ... and just -- and put together with sutures.
But you're actually right, Anderson. To your point, the only thing protecting the underlying brain now is that layer of skin. The bone is gone. So, if that person were to fall or if something were to injure this area of the head, that would be a problem.
A lot of times, people will wear helmets in order to protect that part of their head from this very cause. But people can walk around with it.
COOPER: So, during her surgery, did they put back the original piece of bone?
GUPTA: Well, this is interesting. In fact, that original piece of bone, what they were concerned about was because of the gunshot wound itself, that they were concerned that bone may have some risk of infection.
So what they did was they created a bone substitute. It's got the same consistency of bone. They essentially just model the same contour and they go ahead and place it back as you see there.
Anderson, I don't know if you can see this. Around the edges, there is these little plates...
GUPTA: ... and essentially just tiny little screws, two screws in the graft, the bone graft here itself, and two screws back in the original skull.
And that's what holds it in place.
COOPER: That's amazing.
GUPTA: Anderson, again, close the skin over it, and that's the operation.
COOPER: That's incredible. And you spent time with her doctors. Do they think she's going to regain enough function to -- can she return to Congress?
GUPTA: You know, that's interesting. I spoke to many of her doctors, including the doctors who originally treated her. And they all -- the answer they all seem to give is, yes, but not tomorrow.
And, obviously, no one is thinking it's going to happen tomorrow. But their point is, I think, that the rehab process is going to take a while. And they don't want to pin it down, and for good reason. Every patient is going to sort of return at their own pace.
But in terms of this type of injury, Anderson, as we have talked about, the impact on speech is there. The impact on function, motor strength on the right side of the body, the opposite side of the body of where the injury was, that's an issue, as well. And as those things start to improve, they may get a better idea of when that function is going to return.
COOPER: It's just incredible, what they can do. Sanjay, thanks.
GUPTA: Thank you, Anderson.
COOPER: Well, still ahead tonight, we now know the name of the woman Arnold Schwarzenegger had his -- had another child with. And photos of her have surfaced.
But, first, other stories we're watching tonight.
Joe Johns has a 360 news and business bulletin -- Joe.
JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, the swollen Mississippi River is cresting in Vicksburg, Mississippi, tonight at more than 14 feet above flood stage. Parts of the city already underwater, and officials warn that, even after the river crests, the floodwaters will take weeks to drain.
Newt Gingrich now says he made a mistake when he criticized the Medicare provision of the House Republican budget plan. The GOP presidential candidate called it -- quote -- "right-wing social engineering," saying it would impose radical change on Americans. He now says his comments were inaccurate and unfortunate.
A bill introduced in the Senate today would limit how many times Americans can tap into their 401(k) retirement accounts for loans. The bill's sponsors say 401(k)s should not be used as piggy banks. Right now, employers decide how often loans can be made. The bill would also make it easier to pay those loans back.
And a parade of A-list celebrities and journalists, including Maria Shriver, turned out in Chicago last night to bid farewell to Oprah Winfrey's iconic talk show. Shriver thanked Oprah for being a friend for 30 years. And look at the lineup. Stars on stage, Tom Hanks, Beyonce, Madonna and Tom Cruise on the far right of your screen. Oprah's final show airs next week.
In a coda, Anderson, don't think Maria Shriver talked at all about her husband, the big issue.
COOPER: Yes, interesting. Joe, thanks.
Just ahead, the identity of Schwarzenegger's -- well, the housekeeper who he fathered a child with. New details about the child they had together. Obviously, I'm not going to show you any pictures. Plus, why previous complaints from women about his behavior fell flat with the public.
Up next, though, also, lawyers for the head of the International Monetary Fund file an application for bail. We're going to see what they've asked the judge on their client's behalf and talk to CNN legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin about his chances of being released.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: In just a few moments, the identity of the woman Arnold Schwarzenegger had a child with and the first photos of her sub -- surface publicly. But first, "Crime & Punishment." A move by lawyers for Dominique Strauss-Kahn, the head of the IMF, to get him released on bail as early as tomorrow.
He's obviously, as I said, the head of the IMF, who's accused of sexually assaulting a maid in a New York City hotel on Saturday. He was arrested after boarding a flight to Paris later in the same afternoon, and remanded to jail.
Late today, his lawyers filed a bail application, saying that he has no prior criminal record and does not represent a flight risk. They said Strauss-Kahn would post $1 million bail and agree to 24-hour home detention with electronic monitoring.
Jeffrey Toobin, CNN senior legal analyst, he joins me now.
The defense is asking for bail. What do you know about that and what details do you have on it?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: It's an unusual -- I mean, it's a very persuasive motion, I have to say, Anderson. I mean, here's a guy who is a now very big public figure, who has a -- you know, his daughter is a graduate student here at Columbia. He lives in Washington. He has a lot of roots in New York, and he's also agreeing to electronic monitoring. The idea that he's a risk of flight...
COOPER: Would he give up his passport?
TOOBIN: He's already given up his passport. He's given up -- and he's agreed to surrender that. I mean, he really does not seem like much of a risk of flight. It's a very serious crime.
And there's also an interesting new disclosure in the motion, which was, you know, a lot of it -- there's been a lot of attention, of course, that he went right to this flight. But the defense asserted in the papers filed today that he had a reservation on that flight for a week.
COOPER: Right. And...
TOOBIN: So it was not a new thing. He didn't just sprint for the airport.
COOPER: So they're saying he wasn't trying to just run away and escape? It's interesting, because he actually left, I think, in a -- in a hotel car, which if you're trying to flee from a hotel, it would seem an odd thing to do.
TOOBIN: And they also point out that, you know, the only reason they knew where he was is that he called for his cell phone. He called the hotel and said, "Did I forget my cell phone back in -- back in the room?" If you are trying to keep your whereabouts a secret, you don't call the hotel and say, "By the way, I'm on this flight. Please bring me my phone."
Now, of course, none of this means he's innocent. But it does relate to the issue of flight.
COOPER: Right. It's -- one can always say, well, rationally it doesn't make any sense. Of course, in something like this, people don't actually act rationally.
TOOBIN: That's for sure.
COOPER: What about some are calling the Roman Polanski effect, that -- some have been saying, drawing comparisons between the cases, arguing that if he were to leave the U.S., France would be under no obligation to try to send him back to face trial.
TOOBIN: Well, you know, it is kind of amazing how many parallels there are. And in fact, the prosecutor in the initial bail here earlier this week explicitly raised the Polanski comparison. He's a French national. It was a sex crime. He was out on bail.
Now, there are many differences. Polanski was not required to surrender his passport, and he certainly wasn't under any sort of electronic monitoring.
But the fight that the American government has had literally for decades to get Polanski back, if not explicitly a legal precedent, it's certainly on a lot of people's minds and just another argument for keeping him in jail.
COOPER: Do you think the judge will release him on bail?
TOOBIN: Boy, you know, I've been struggling with that question. I think there are a lot of hard -- a lot of questions, you know, about these legal proceedings are pretty easy to answer. This one is hard.
If I had to guess, I would say, if not this time, then some time next week they will put together a bail package that will get him out. I mean, if you really believe risk of flight is the main issue here, as it's supposed to be, I think the defense makes a strong case.
COOPER: What would be different about a bail package a week from now than the one now? What would make a better bail package?
TOOBIN: Two million dollars. Additional signatories. A tighter restriction on where he might go. The package presented today didn't identify the place where he would be monitored. I mean, you can work within these systems.
You know, this is a much more common practice in federal court. These sort of out on bail with electronic monitoring. So one disadvantage Strauss-Kahn has is both the prosecutors and the judges are less familiar in the New York state system, because they deal mostly with violent crime, not white-collar crime, people with access to that sort of thing. So I wouldn't be surprised if the judge said, "Well, you know, we may be getting there, but we're not there yet."
COOPER: If he gets bail, though, it seems. I mean, do you think he can hold on to his job at the IMF?
TOOBIN: No way.
COOPER: He can't travel. He can't travel like he does for the IMF. That alone would...
TOOBIN: I mean, not traveling and also this is a crime where, if he's convicted, he's not looking at months in prison; he's looking at years in prison. I mean, sexual assault is a very major crime. He is going to have to devote all his attention to figuring out how he's going to fight this case.
And how can anyone take him seriously? How can anyone think that he's actually going to be paying attention where, best case scenario, he's confined to an apartment with an ankle bracelet?
COOPER: His -- they live in Washington. Would he be -- could he leave New York. Could he live down in his home in Washington?
TOOBIN: Inconceivable to me. I can't... COOPER: Really? Inconceivable?
TOOBIN: Oh, yes. I mean, remember, you know, we're not talking about the U.S. government. We're talking about New York state. This is New York state bringing this case. New York state is not going to take the risk that somehow other jurisdictions, courts get involved. They are going to say, if -- if he's let out at all, you have to stay in Manhattan. Remember, this district attorney, he's not even the other four boroughs. He's just Manhattan. He's going to have to stay here and in an apartment where his comings and goings are very tightly controlled. He can go to the doctor; he can go to the lawyer. That's about all when you're under that sort of 24-hour detention.
I think Washington is out of the question. And I think, you know, his departure from the IMF is not a question of if but when.
COOPER: Yes, question of time. Jeff Toobin, appreciate it. Thanks. We'll see what happens tomorrow.
A source close to Arnold Schwarzenegger says the revelation that he fathered a child with a household staffer has been difficult for him, and he's apologized to his family.
"The New York Times" is reporting the child's mother is Mildred Patricia Baena, a former housekeeper for the Schwarzenegger family. These are pictures from her MySpace page. There's also pictures of her son, which we're obviously not going to show you his face.
TMZ posted this picture today, reportedly of Schwarzenegger and Baena at a party at his house in 1994, three years before she gave birth to his child.
There's new video today of Schwarzenegger in his car, as well. Maria Shriver, meanwhile, appeared last night, as Joe mentioned, in Chicago for a taping of the final episode of "The Oprah Winfrey Show." Shriver got a standing ovation, a hug from Oprah. No mention, though, directly of what Shriver's going through right now, though.
This is not, of course, the first sex scandal that Schwarzenegger has been involved with. Before he was elected California governor, "The L.A. Times" ran a series of articles about more than a dozen women who accused him of sexual harassment over a 30-year period. Former "L.A. Times" reporter Tracy Weber broke that story back in 2003. She's now a senior reporter for "Pro Publica." Earlier I spoke with Tracy and with Adam Nagourney of "The New York Times."
COOPER: Adam, your reporting in "The New York Times" helped uncover the identity of this woman. We know there's obviously this media frenzy outside of her home. What have you learned about who she is and where she is?
ADAM NAGOURNEY, "NEW YORK TIMES": We're not sure where she is. We had a lot of reporters outside -- there were a lot of reporters outside her house today. She hasn't been seen for a couple days. You know, she worked for the governor and his wife for 20 years as a housekeeper. She retired about a year ago, I think, and moved out there. And that's where she's been living.
COOPER: And a lot of the pictures that we're seeing are from her MySpace page.
NAGOURNEY: MySpace page.
COOPER: You confirmed that she and Maria Shriver were basically pregnant around the same time?
NAGOURNEY: I mean, the son -- let me get this right. The son of the -- Ms. Shriver and Mr. Schwarzenegger was born -- the younger son was born within a week of the son, the illegitimate son. And so they were -- all were pregnant at the same time, and I think -- I believe the kids actually played together in the mansion for a couple years there.
COOPER: Tracy, you covered the groping allegations against Arnold Schwarzenegger that came to light during the 2003 campaign when you were working for "The L.A. Times." A, were you surprised to hear about this secret child out there? There had been rumors, certainly. You've investigated.
TRACY WEBER, FORMER REPORTER, "L.A. TIMES": Well, we were -- had heard there had been a child, and I had actually gone to talk to a woman who was alleged to have had a child with Arnold Schwarzenegger, and she vehemently denied that at the time.
COOPER: This was a different woman?
WEBER: This was a different woman. But I wasn't surprised, but I'm actually quite surprised that it hadn't come out earlier than this.
COOPER: That he's been able to keep it secret this long?
COOPER: When you investigated the groping allegations and you talked to a number of the women involved, it's kind of surprisingly -- explain what happened after those -- after those allegations were revealed. It didn't seem to make much difference.
WEBER: That was actually quite difficult, because I was called into the story in order to, you know, find some of these women where we had indications that had been involved in incidents with Arnold Schwarzenegger. And he was the leading candidate for governor.
And I -- I tracked down these women, and I started talking with them. And it was very difficult for them to talk about these things that had happened to them, because he was in a position of power, and they were -- not only had things happen to them, like he had groped them. He had pinned one of them between a friend of his and kissed her aggressively and laid on top of one of the other women. COOPER: This was while on movie sets?
WEBER: Right. These are women working on movie sets. And it was very difficult to convince them to go public with this, because once you're out in the open like that, you can face a lot of, you know, questions and issues and comments, and it kind of marks you.
And they, by the end of talking to them, agreed that it was important for voters to know that this had happened. And you know, we checked these women out. We validated their stories. We found people they told at the time. We even checked criminally, civilly. These were really validated stories. And they went out and agreed to go on the record.
And then a couple days later, voters didn't seem to care about it. He won by a wide margin, and it was just devastating for these women, because that was one more, you know, humiliation for them. And it was hard for me, too, because I had convinced them to go public with this.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: It does -- and I reread the reporting you did back then. And I mean, it does seem like he, Schwarzenegger, as a top paid movie star, had a sense of entitlement, a sense that he could get away with basically just about any kind of behavior on a movie set with women, and they didn't feel they could really do much and it.
WEBER: Well, you know, he -- these movies are $100 million movies. He's a mega movie star. If you complained on a movie set like this, you not only complained about him, but you had a reputation then for doing something to damage a franchise. And they were -- didn't feel anyone would listen to them or chastise him.
You know, I spoke with a lot of women that didn't want to have their stories shared, as well. And there was a sense that no one was going to tell him no, because he was the money.
COOPER: In terms of where this story goes, Adam, as a reporter, what are you most interested in at this point?
NAGOURNEY: I mean, interesting questions you're raising, because what people are interested in generally these days. I mean, I think this will be a lot of interesting questions you're raising: how long they worked together, how -- you know, how -- why it took so long for Mrs. -- for his wife to find out.
What I'm interested in -- this might reflect my own bias in covering government and politics -- is how did people in his office not know? Did he do anything, and I'm thinking of John Edwards. I want to be clear; I'm not remotely making any allegations, just things I've been thinking about. Did he do anything to use his official powers to try to stop this from coming out? Those are the kind of questions I'd be interested in.
And I'm also interested in whether or not he made an arrangement with her where he paid her money not to talk, which is very common here in Los Angeles and is generally legal but not always. But those are the questions I'm interested in.
COOPER: Tracy Weber, appreciate you coming on and talking about it. Adam, as well.
NAGOURNEY: Thank you.
COOPER: Coming up tonight on the program, new developments in the death of a young boy whose body was found on the side of a road in Maine. Authorities are questioning a woman in the death. We'll have the details in a "360 Follow."
And the best campaign video ever. Find out why it made it on tonight's "RidicuList," next.
COOPER: Joe Johns is following other stories for us tonight. He's back with a "360 Bulletin" -- Joe.
JOHNS: Anderson, Libya frees four journalists held in detention. They include two Americans and two Europeans. The journalists were captured weeks ago by Libya's army and accused of entering the country illegally.
And a "360 Follow." Tonight, state police in Maine believe they've identified the body of a young boy found over the weekend near the New Hampshire border. They're not naming him. Meantime, authorities from three states are interviewing a woman in the death. She was picked up today at a rest stop in Massachusetts and was later taken to a hospital for medical evaluation. Authorities have not identified her or her connection to the boy.
Queen Elizabeth and Ireland's president attended a formal dinner tonight at Dublin castle. Speaking in the Irish language during a toast, the queen expressed deep sympathy for those who suffered during the long and difficult history between Britain and Ireland.
And the birther controversy lives on in an unexpected way. President Obama's re-election campaign sent an e-mail to supporters selling T-shirts and mugs with a picture of Obama above the word "Made in the USA" and a copy of his birth certificate. His deputy campaign manager said there's really no way to make this stuff completely go away. The only thing we can do is laugh at it and make sure as many people as possible are in on the joke.
COOPER: There you go. Joe, thanks.
Time now for the "RidicuList." And tonight, we're adding the Dallas county Republican party. Not for any political reason at all. See, last night a special election, they elected this man, a man by the name of Wade Emmert, chair of the party. Now, I'm sure he's a fine individual. I actually don't know anything about him. I'm not in any way taking sides in county politics. Mr. Emmert, we certainly wish you well and wish you nothing but the best.
But the reason all this winds up on the "RidicuList" is because by electing him, the party has deprived itself of the unique and extraordinary vision of this lady, Debbie Georgatos. Who is she you might ask? Well, I'm glad you asked, because now I get to show you her fantastically surreal campaign video in which Debbie tackled the important issues, all the while employing melancholy cello music, cutting edge editing, and the occasional shot of a baby elephant.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DEBBIE GEORGATOS, FORMER CANDIDATE: There's an elephant in the room. A weak elephant. Do you know what I mean?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: That's just the beginning. And we didn't edit in the picture of the elephant. That's actually in the video. The video goes on for a full two minutes, and every second of it is really quite splendid. It's an epic journey in which Debbie makes her case without ever making eye contact with the camera.
I just want to point out, we did not edit any of these clips at all.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGATOR: In the November 2010 elections, Dallas County bucked a national trend. Where Republicans won races around the country, the Dallas County Republicans lost every race. Every single one.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Every single one. So what went wrong, Debbie? What is the problem with Dallas County? Is it a person?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGATOS: The problem is not necessarily a person. It's a mindset. A mind-set that says, we always have to do everything the way we always have. It's an establishment mindset.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Clearly Debbie does not fall victim to the establishment mindset. She has catapulted out of that mindset, the mindset that says you shouldn't splice random clips of black and white science- fiction movies into your campaign video. By a vote of 140-95, the Republican party chose Wade Emmert who as far as I know has not adopted any particular stance on the super massive black hole.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGATOS: The super massive black hole is the most destructive force in the universe. It literally sucks in and destroys everything within its reach.
(END VIDEO CLIP) COOPER: Whoa. Now I'm just kind of scared, but not as scared as you should be, Dallas County. Because without Debbie's leadership, it's not just the massive black hole you have to worry about, but the super massive blue hole.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGATOS: We don't want Dallas county to become the super massive blue hole, because we don't know what that looks like. It's called Detroit.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Did she just slam Detroit? I think she just slammed Detroit. I can't tell for sure, because I feel like I'm on mushrooms. Not that I've ever actually been on mushrooms, but from what I've read, that's what it feels like. It is the best campaign video ever.
For not electing this woman, Dallas County Republican Party will hereby fall into the super massive black hole on "The RidicuList."
A lot more ahead at the top of the hour, the serious stuff. We'll be right back.
COOPER: Good evening, everyone. We begin tonight with breaking news. Pictures just coming in from the West Coast. A military jet engulfed in flames at the end of a runway at Point Mugu Naval Air Station. That's just up the coast from Los Angeles, south of Santa Barbara. The plane is a military version of the old Boeing 707.