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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
American Voice of Al Qaeda Killed; New Terror Warning
Aired September 30, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: It is 10:00 p.m. here on the East Coast.
Breaking news tonight: a new FBI bulletin warning about possible retaliation for the killing of Anwar al-Awlaki, one of America's most wanted terror leaders. We now have a name for it, Operation Troy, weeks of surveillance, Marine Harrier jets flying back ups and special forces standing by on vertical-lift planes waiting for possible ground operations.
Also tonight, breaking details, exclusive to 360 on what this would-be killer was capable of. Also we're learning how Saudi Arabia figured into his takedown. Our own Fran Townsend has details on that in a moment what her sources are saying about the chemical weapons he wanted to use on America, the country he was born in, the country that educated him, and early this morning, the country that hunted him down.
COOPER (voice-over): Around 3:00 a.m. Eastern time, the U.S. launches a joint operation with the Yemenis, a car believed to be carrying al Awlaki is targeted on the outskirt of a town east of the capital. A U.S. drone fires its missile. And one of America's top terror targets is dead.
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The death of al- Awlaki is a major blow to al Qaeda's most active operational affiliate.
COOPER: Anwar al-Awlaki was a long way from home when the missile found him in Yemen. Born in New Mexico and educated in the U.S., he radicalized and became a leader in al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, implicated in many plus to kill Americans. He was a top terror recruiter. Awlaki's presence was felt in the Fort Hood massacre.
The alleged shooter, Major Nidal Hasan is believed to have exchanged e-mails with Awlaki before the rampage that left 13 people dead. Awlaki is also linked to other terror plots, including the would-be underwear bomber alleged plan to bring down U.S. airliner two year ago. The plot to blow up U.S. cargo planes and the attempt to set off a bomb in New York's times square.
MICHAEL LEITER, FORMER DIRECTOR, NATIONAL COUNTERTERRORISM CENTER: I actually consider Al Qaeda in the Arabian peninsulas with Awlaki as a leader within that organization probably the most significant risk to the U.S. home land.
LEON PANETTA, DEFENSE SECRETARY: We had always had tremendous concern that after getting bin Laden that someone like Awlaki was a primary target because of his continuing efforts to plan attacks against the United States.
COOPER: Awlaki justifies such attacks saying Americans are at war with Islam.
ANWAR AL-AWLAKI, MUSLIM CLERIC: With the American invasion of Iraq and continued U.S. aggression against Muslims and I eventually came to the conclusion that Jihad against America is binding upon myself just as it is binding on every other able Muslim.
COOPER: The Pentagon is saying little about the drone strike that ended his war, except that three others died alongside him, including another radical American who was the producer of the Jihad online magazine called inspire. The notion of killing Americans instead of bringing them to justice not sitting well, with some.
REP. RON PAUL (R), TEXAS: Awlaki was born here, he's an American citizen. He was never charged or tried for any crimes. Nobody knows if he killed anybody.
COOPER: The American civil liberties union agrees, saying Awlaki's killing violates both U.S. and international law. Others say Awlaki placed himself outside American justice, but not beyond American air power.
COOPER: We'll talk about the legality of all this in a little bit. First, more details of the attacks. We mentioned at the top, National Security Contributor Fran Townsend is learning new details about him, and what other countries were involved in this takedown. She joins us along with Barbara Starr, Jill Dougherty, national security analyst Peter Bergen.
So Fran, I know you've been working your sources, you have new information tonight. What have you learned?
FRANCES TOWNSEND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CONTRIBUTOR: Well, Anderson, you know it's interesting, we heard a lot. We remember the cargo plot. The Saudi government handed us the tracking numbers. We found these computer cartridges.
Well, as it turns out, a senior counter terrorism official confirmed to me today that as part of that plot Anwar al-Awlaki had advocated the use of WMD, namely ricin or cyanide as part of the plot, a poison piece to the plot that didn't happen. But you can understand that as Anwar al-Awlaki got more aggressive operationally and became the extra elaboration chief for al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, he volunteered himself as a more and more increasingly important target.
COOPER: You also have new information about who helped the United States track him down, correct? TOWNSEND: That's right.
You know, the Saudi government enjoys as a very strong counterterrorism service, the Mabahith, and the United States works pretty closely with them. They did provide us those tracking numbers in the cargo plane case. And I'm told that this Saudi Mabahith were instrumental in helping provide target information against Anwar al- Awlaki. Not surprising, I mean the same sources that would have given them the tracking numbers clearly would have had access to the inner workings of Al Qaeda in the Arabian able to help in terms of tracking and targeting al Qaeda.
COOPER: The president of Yemen, didn't he go to Saudi Arabia after he was injured several months ago?
TOWNSEND: That's right. You know the interesting thing an American counter terrorism official said to me, you know the counter terrorism relationship between Yemeni and the United States has gotten increasingly better over the last three months.
As you point out, Anderson, that's about the time Saleh went to Saudi Arabia, having suffered serious burns in the attack on him. He went further many Yemeni officials said to me. You know we began to provide serious targeting information about al Awlaki about a month ago. And clearly, this is an operation that's built the intelligence picture of al Awlaki's whereabouts, his confederates over time that enabled today's assassination.
COOPER: Interesting stuffs. Barbara Starr, I know you also have some new information time. What are you hearing?
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, it looks like it was in the last two weeks that the CIA and U.S. military were able to hone in on where he was hiding in Yemen. We are told that it was a joint operation now between the CIA and the joint special operations command. Where have you heard that word before? Those were the military troops that went and killed Osama bin Laden on that raid into Pakistan. JSOC they are called.
JSOC and the CIA, working together to use drones and airplanes. JSOC providing we are told the final targeting information to really focus in over the last two weeks on where he was, what his movements were, and getting ready to take that final hit. JSOC troops also were on standby as a backup force to go in if that was necessary. They did not have to go in, we are told. But this is the latest example of the CIA and military troops in the United States working hand in hand on these high target operations around the world, Anderson.
COOPER: And, Peter, how significant a blow to al Qaeda central but also mainly to al Qaeda and Arabian Peninsula is this?
PETER BERGEN, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: I think Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula has been under pressure for some time. U.S. special forces in Yemen, several dozen of them who have been basically hunting these guys down. We've seen a number of strikes, drone strikes before against al Awlaki targeting some of the leaderships. So, you know I think the group's been under pressure for a while. But taking this guy out, his ability to communicate directly with the Fort Hood shooter, and encouraging him to kill fellow Americans soldiers speaks for itself.
So, in terms of his ability to mobilize English speaking would be or want to be terrorists in either in England or Canada or Britain. But Anderson, I would caveat that with, this guy had no profile in much of the Muslim world. He wasn't the puzzled name in the Arab world. The fact that the FBI and DHS sort of said there might be reprisals, that's kind of to be expected, they would release that kind of statement. The fact is we didn't see a big response after the death of Osama bin Laden who is a much, much more important figure. And I doubt we'll see anything really significant from al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula. They have other problems. They're very much on the run right now.
COOPER: They're very much on the run?
COOPER: Jill Dougherty, it's interesting though I mean to what Fran was talking about is, you know the Yemeni president had just returned to the country after giving the medical treatment in Saudi Arabia. He's kind a looking to the U.S. to help him stay in power. How much should we read into the timing of all this?
JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN FOREIGN AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: I don't think you should real read a lot into it. Because obviously, President Saleh might want to try to give the impression that he's back and then suddenly to get al Awlaki, thanks to him. But there's no indication at this point that he gave any significant information. And I think as Fran has been pointing out. You know these operations take quite a long time, and the research and looking at where he was took a long time. So to say that suddenly it all came together because Saleh's back, I don't think it holds water.
COOPER: Fran, you actually had met with Saleh back when you were in government, trying to convince him to go after al Awlaki. What was that like?
TOWNSEND: Well, look, you know Saleh you had a very sort of tenuous confederation that supported him of these tribes. And he was reluctant to actually go at risk with any of them. Awlaki had strong tribal support. He was teaching at Sinai University. He was teaching this English class which is the guy that was with him who was killed went to Yemen to take these English classes. We knew they were really radicalization courses. They were recruitment and training. We told Saleh that, and wanted him to go after al Awlaki, but he never did and he was reluctant I think because of al Awlaki's strong tribal ties.
COOPER: There was also an attempt on his life with the drone track earlier this summer that failed. The U.S. reportedly has at least three drone bases in the region. How important have these bases been?
TOWNSEND: they have been incredibly important. And we've seen increasing use of them, you know of course, in the federally administrated tribal areas of Pakistan. But now, this sort of more widespread use and I think frankly our allies prefer the use of drones than they do to having U.S. troops on the ground.
COOPER: Do we know Peter how this guy got radicalized? I mean, was he I mean he was born in the United States, do we know what occurred?
BERGEN: Well, you know, I have talked to the imam at the mosque where Awlaki lived in Virginia in 2002. And at that time he didn't really have much of, he wasn't described as a militant. What may have turned him much more radical was a spell of a year. He spent a year in Yemeni prison in 2006. We've seen repeatedly whether it was al Zawahri the leader of al Qaeda, Abu Musab al Zarqawi, leader of Iraq. The people in prison all have become more radicalized. And so, the key to this guy radicalization might have been this year, he's ban in a Yemeni prison, Anderson.
COOPER: Interesting. Much like the jihadists who came out of Egypt being radicalized in Egyptian prisons.
Peter, appreciate it, Fran Townsend, Barbara Starr, Jill Dougherty as well. Thanks for all the original reporting.
Let us know what you think. We are on Facebook. Follow us on Twitter, @AndersonCooper.
Up next tonight, more on the legal angle, is killing an American terrorist overseas justifiable? Or is it as some are saying, illegal, extra judicial murder? Does it fall on some new gray area?
We will talk about it, the legal angle on all of this. We'll talk about that on Twitter @AndersonCooper. A lot of people are weighing in. Most people saying, yes, it's OK to kill him, some people represented Ron Paul, for instance, saying no, it wasn't.
Later, "Crime & Punishment": more damaging testimony against Dr. Conrad Murray in the Michael Jackson death trial. His timeline of Michael Jackson's last moments, and what paramedics say he did not tell them about their patient when they arrived on the scene.
Let's also check in with Isha -- Isha.
ISHA SESAY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, coming up, we just got access of never before seen video of Casey Anthony. Images the judge in her murder trial would not let the jury see. We will tell you why and why we're seeing it now? That and much more when "360" continues:
COOPER: More on breaking news tonight. An FBI bulletin warning of retaliation for the killing of two Al Qaeda. Two men dedicate weigh a holy war against America, two Americas. So, should that have made a difference in how to go after them, the fact that they were Americans? CNN News Anchor Erin Burnett asked Defense Secretary Leon Panetta about it today. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: and I'm curious, there's been discussion of the ACLU today saying he's an American citizen. So perhaps, the fact that it was a CIA drone which killed him, is possibly illegal, because he didn't have a trial and he's an American citizen? Are you confident that you're clear legally here?
PANETTA: This individual was clearly a terrorist. And, yes, he was a citizen, if you're a terrorist, you're a terrorist. And that means that we have the ability to go after those who would threaten to attack the United States and kill Americans. There's no question that the authority and the ability to go after a terrorist is there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, that's one view. Earlier, you heard Representative Ron Paul speaking the other side. When became clear is someone who is being targeted Anwar al-Awlaki's father actually to take the government to court. The judge throughout the case was taken up now with senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin.
So Jeffrey, there's a law on the books, I think it's been in effect since the 1970s, banning the U.S. government from assassinating individuals. So, just how does the U.S. government legally justify killing a citizen now?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR ANALYST: Because we're at war. I mean it's as simple as that. Right after 9/11, Congress authorized the use of military force against al Qaeda. That law is still in effect, it was the authorization for the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. And as an active member of al Qaeda, this guy is fair game under our laws.
COOPER: So if he was a member of another terrorist group, not Al Qaeda, would it still be legal?
TOOBIN: Well, not under this use of force authorization. I mean there are various findings the president can issue an intelligence finding relating to other people. This post 9/11 authorization only applies to al Qaeda. But just to answer your broader question. I mean this ban on assassinations is really pretty much irrelevant at this point. So many presidents since the '70s have directed whether it's Ronald Reagan trying to kill Gadhafi, or the post 9/11 al Qaeda Osama bin Laden. That law is technically still on the books, but presidents have long since figured things around.
COOPER: Where President Osama issued a presidential order two years ago to capture or killed Awlaki basically putting him on this hit list. So, president can do that now? He can just issue an order for anyone he deems a threat to the United States or anyone who's they have to be actively engaged in war?
TOOBIN: Well, see that's where you start to get into gray areas. And that's where the fact that there is not and probably never will be a legal test of this authority becomes relevant. I mean, I don't know where the outside limit of this is. You know the fact that this was an al Qaeda member in Yemen seems like they're on very firm ground. Suppose he was in Toronto, suppose he was in Baltimore. I don't think we could use a missile in Toronto. But I think legally we would be covered under this authority. It seems to be very, very broad.
COOPER: Isn't this, though also an I mean it's a war on terror if that's the term that can go on endlessly. So, I mean is there no time limit on this war?
TOOBIN: There is certainly is no time limit on the legislation. And that's one of the concerns that have been raised. I mean, after all, 9/11, as we all know was more than 10 years ago, and we're still fighting al Qaeda, the war in Afghanistan is still going, the war in Iraq is not over either. There's no limit on the law. Whether at some point Congress will decide to formally end the war or a court will step in, I don't know.
COOPER: I don't want to go too far down the road of hypothetical's, but would it be OK though for the U.S. government to you know somebody is a is believed to be an al Qaeda sympathizer, believed to be wanting to do harm to two Americans in the United States, has made e-mail communication with al Qaeda, would it be OK to kill that person in the United States?
TOOBIN: Well, I mean that's what we don't know. And the contrast is of course so dramatic. You know what we require to execute someone in the United States is a very elaborate system of due process.
Here, the president signs a piece of paper, and it's a death sentence. And it's unreviewable by the courts. That does appear to be what the law is now. So far, the number of people targeted and the kinds of people targeted have not generated any considerable protests. And I certainly don't think there are going to be any protests about this killing. But, I mean as you point out, you know, the extrapolation, the other possibilities are really you know chilling.
COOPER: It was interesting that Awlaki's father actually tried to stop this from happening in the court. The family doesn't have any kind of legal recourse at this point. They're not suing the U.S. government, are they?
TOOBIN: I don't think so. I mean I suppose in theory, his estate could sue. But I mean there are so many barriers to that. And I think it's just you know a law school hypothetical. It's never going to happen. You know that's so ironic. If they wanted to tap his phone in Yemen, they would have to get a warrant from the federal surveillance court. But if they want to kill him, they don't need any warrant at all. The president just signs a paper.
COOPER: Interesting. We're having the discussion on Twitter right now, now, @AndersonCooper. Join in. Jeff, I appreciate it. Thanks very much.
I want to go to a man who's been out on the legal frontier in the fight against al Qaeda, in the front lines in many ways, Ali Soufan, a former top FBI special agent. He investigated the East African Embassy bombings as well as the devil attack on the USS Cole Yemen. He's co-author of "the black banners" the inside story of 9/11 and the war against al Qaeda. So, I mean you were involved in interrogating terrorists. How important was Awlaki within the al Qaeda and Arabian Peninsula?
ALI SOUFAN, FORMER FBI INTERROGATOR: Well, within al Qaeda and the Arabian Peninsula, he became an inspirational figure. His became a spiritual guidance if you want to call it. However, his focus and his importance come to the recruitment of terrorists, potential terrorist in the west especially in the United States and United Kingdom. And we see that again and again, with most of the operations that took place in the west and the United States.
Since 2009 for example Anderson, most of the attacks if not all the attacks, that took place in the United States were not planned and org organized in Pakistan, that was shifted to the Arabian peninsula of Al Qaeda, shifted to Yemen because of al Awlaki. He's an excellent English speaker. He is very knowledgeable about the culture. He used the new media, and the Internet to recruit.
And he single-handedly created what we have today, the threat that we have today, and the home grown terrorism. People, who never joined al Qaeda never, went to the training camps in Afghanistan. However, they were able to read "Inspire" magazine that was published by Samir Khan, who was killed with him.
COOPER: Right, who also killed in this attack.
SOUFAN: Absolutely. And listen to his sermon and look at the videos of al Qaeda produced from Yemen over the Internet and join the organization.
COOPER: It's amazing that this guy and this other one, both who were killed today were sort of at the epicenter of a lot of the recent attempts in the United States.
SOUFAN: Yes, absolutely, and his influence goes way beyond the Arabian Peninsula. I mean the underwear bomber Umar Abdulmutallab is a perfect example. Umar Abdulmutallab, a Nigerian kid, he attends a servant in an Islam mosque where al Awlaki is the Imam. He became impressed by al Awlaki. He goes to Yemen. He gets recruited by Awlaki in Yemen to blow up an airplane over Detroit during the Christmas of 2009. So, that gives you an idea about the global influence that Awlaki did. And if we didn't kill him today, in five, ten years from now, he could have been the next bin Laden.
COOPER: It's interesting, I mean you know I have seen some of this stuff on the Internet, I don't see him as being a huge great charismatic figure. What was it about him, do you think?
SOUFAN: Well, it is his ability to communicate al Qaeda's rhetoric in English. In a way that people in London, people in the United States, a kid who's watching al Qaeda propaganda videos in the basement of his mother can understand and can't relate to him.
COOPER: Was it legal to kill him, do you think?
SOUFAN: I believe so you know. This individual declared war on the United States many times. He was involved in every terrorist plot since 2009 until today, and that took place on the homeland. I mean, Major Hasan, for example, Nidal Hasan, the Times Square bomber, the cargo plot, and you name it, all these plots have been linked to him.
COOPER: You actually interrogated or were involved with getting, bringing to justice a lot of the al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula leaders who actually then sent to prison in Yemen and escaped.
SOUFAN: We actually assisted the Yemeni government in the prosecution of all these individuals, and we arrested many of them after a series of operations like we did in Yemen with the military. And they were planning to do a few you know attacks, few targets.
COOPER: And they are still out there now.
SOUFAN: We prosecuted all of them. We put them in jail, and then we were able to dig a tunnel and escape all of them, to include the leader who is still until today, the leaders of al Qaeda and the Arabian Peninsula.
COOPER: So is al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula now still the -- going to be the driving force behind the attacks to come or the attempts of attack to come?
SOUFAN: Well, regionally I don't think the death of al Awlaki will affect al Qaeda and the Arabian Peninsula. I think al Awlaki's death is more important for us here in the United States and in the west because if you look at Al Qaeda as a franchise, he was the person that was handling the operations in the west and in the United States.
So from that perspective, he's extremely important to us. But when it comes to the Middle East, when it comes to Yemen, he's pretty irrelevant, and I think everyone in Yemen and in the region will look at the assassination today within the context of what's happening today in Yemen between Saleh and the opposition.
COOPER: Peter Bergen earlier said they're on the run, basically, they have bigger problems given all that's going on in Yemen?
SOUFAN: Well absolutely. I think both of them the regional group is on the run, because they have quite the battles going on in Abyan and Lahj and many areas down south. But also, al Awlaki's group has been on the run recently. For example, they were supposed to do an inspire magazine edition for the 9/11 anniversary. That was late more than 16 days. That gives you an idea about the way Samir Khan, and the way al Awlaki has been living recently.
Ali Soufan, thank you very much for being honest.
SOUFAN: Thank you, sir, for having me.
COOPER: Another fascinating day of testimony in the Michael Jackson manslaughter trial. On the stand, the paramedic who responded to the 911 call, he said it was too late by the time he arrived. Randi Kaye was inside the court room and has details.
Plus: the latest in the Amanda Knox murder appeal. She could be days away from freedom.
We will be right back.
COOPER: Still ahead tonight, a paramedic delivering damning testimony in day four of the Michael Jackson death trial. Why he says Dr. Conrad Murray's story just did not add up.
First, Isha has the "360 News & Business Bulletin" -- Isha.
ISHA SESAY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, an attorney for Amanda Knox today blasted Italian prosecutors, saying they decided his client was guilty, quote, "regardless of logic and reason." Knox and her former boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito are appealing their convictions for the 2007 of Meredith Kercher. They're expected to give final statements to the court Monday.
Fifteen people are now dead from eating cantaloupe contaminated with Listeria. An additional 84 illnesses have been reported in 19 states, making this the deadliest food-borne illness outbreak since 1988.
On Wall Street, stocks finished one of their worst quarters since the 2008 financial crisis. In the past three months, the Dow dropped 12 percent, the S&P tumbled 14 percent, and the NASDAQ lost 13 percent.
And the first lady slips out to run an errand. A casually dressed Michelle Obama was spotted yesterday pushing her own cart at Target. Amazingly, the store manager tells CNN almost no one recognized her, which could be why the White House says trips like these are not uncommon.
Strange to me that you guys say "cart," which makes me think you should have a horse attached to it.
COOPER: What do you say?
SESAY: It's a shopping trolley.
SESAY: Yes. You go to the supermarket, and you get a trolley.
COOPER: Seems like a lot of work, shopping trolley. Cart.
SESAY: Trolley. COOPER: Shopping trolley. Yes.
SESAY: Let's call the whole thing off.
COOPER: "We call it a shopping wagon."
Time now for "The Shot." Tonight, a video we found on YouTube. A guy's kitchen somehow got trashed while he was away at work, so he launched a little investigation. Sure enough, it became pretty clear who the suspect was. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is what I come home to. Trash has been gone through. It's my fault. I left it -- I left it kind of full. So my question is, who did it? Who's the culprit?
We've got Tea (ph), and we've got Vena (ph). What about Tank? I wonder if Tank had anything to do with it. Tank, do you know about the trash?
SESAY: Do you think?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know anything about the trash, Tank?
SESAY: Tank's like, "Don't look at me."
COOPER: Aww. Poor Tank. He's not very smart.
Tank is an English mastiff. So there you go. That's funny.
All right, Isha. Much more serious stuff ahead, including "Crime & Punishment," day four of the Michael Jackson death trial. Paramedics shoot holes in Conrad Murray's story of how and when Jackson died. But another prosecution witness may have backfired. We'll tell you why.
Also, video of Casey Anthony the day that Caylee's body was found. The trial judge said it was just too inflammatory for the jurors to see. Tonight you're going to see it for the first time. You can decide for yourself. A look at Casey jailhouse video when we continue.
COOPER: "Crime & Punishment" tonight, Michael Jackson had flat- lined by the time rescuers arrived. That was the testimony today from a paramedic who took the stand in day four of the Michael Jackson death trial.
The first responder testified he never saw any signs of life in Jackson and that the details Jackson's personal doctor, Conrad Murray, gave him about medications he'd taken and when he stopped breathing. Apparently, they just didn't add up according to the paramedic. The doctor, Conrad Murray, is now on trial for manslaughter, faces up to four years in prison if convicted. Here's Randi Kaye with the latest report.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Paramedic Richard Senneff arrived at Michael Jackson's home hoping to save a life. He needed to know how long Jackson hadn't been breathing; what, if anything, he'd taken.
DEBRA BRAZIL, PROSECUTOR: Did you ask Dr. Murray how long the patient had been in this condition? Or how long the patient had been down?
RICHARD SENNEFF, PARAMEDIC: I did ask him that.
BRAZIL: What did Dr. Murray say in response to that question?
SENNEFF: "It just happened right when I called you."
BRAZIL: And in your mind, what did that mean?
SENNEFF: It meant to me that this was a patient that was somebody we had a really good chance of saving.
KAYE: True, if paramedics had the real story. Instead, Jackson's personal physician, Dr. Conrad Murray, told half-truths.
BRAZIL: What observations specifically did you make that led you to feel as if there was inconsistent information that you had received?
SENNEFF: When I first moved the patient, his skin was very cool to the touch. When I took a first glance at him, his eyes were open. They were dry, and his pupils were dilated. When I hooked up the EKG machine, it was flat-lined.
KAYE: No heartbeat and skin cool to the touch told paramedics more than just the five minutes it took them to arrive had passed. Senneff says Murray was frantic.
SENNEFF: I asked what his underlying health condition was. He did not respond. I asked again what his underlying health condition was. He did not respond. And then he -- I think it was the third time, he said, "Nothing, nothing. He has nothing." And simply that did not add up to me.
KAYE: Here's something else that didn't add up. Senneff says Jackson appeared thin, underweight. He also noticed an IV stand in the bedroom, an oxygen tank and medications on the nightstand. Senneff asked Murray what drugs Jackson had taken.
SENNEFF: At that point he said, "No, he's not taking anything." And then he followed that up with "I -- I just gave him a little bit of Lorazepam to sleep." BRAZIL: Did you follow up with anything else, Dr. Murray? Are you giving him -- or did you give him anything else?
SENNEFF: I asked, "Was there anything else? Is there anything else?"
And, "No, that's it, just a little bit of Lorazepam."
KAYE: Paramedics would learn later that wasn't true. Dr. Murray had also given him Propofol, which the coroner says caused his death.
BRAZIL: Did Dr. Murray ever mention to you having administered Propofol to Michael Jackson?
SENNEFF: No, he did not.
BRAZIL: Did Conrad Murray ever mention the word "Propofol" to you during the time that you were at the location or in his presence?
SENNEFF: No, he did not.
KAYE: The defense tried to ask if that would have made a difference.
NAREG GOURJIAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Isn't it true that you would have done absolutely nothing different, because you could not, had Dr. Murray even mentioned the Propofol?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Objection, lack of foundation, calls for speculation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sustained.
KAYE: Senneff says he saw no change in Jackson's condition from the time he got to the scene. At 12:57, more than 30 minutes after they arrived, emergency responders wanted to declare Michael Jackson dead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If there's nothing further, we are -- we're going to call it here. The time of death is 12:57.
KAYE: But Senneff says Murray insisted Jackson be transported to the hospital and not declared dead. After loading him into the ambulance, Senneff says he went back inside to find Murray in the bedroom.
BRAZIL: Describe for me what you see Dr. Murray doing when you return to the bedroom.
SENNEFF: He has a bag in hand, and he's picking up items from the floor.
BRAZIL: Where is he located when you see him with the bag in his hand, picking up items from the floor?
SENNEFF: Near the nightstand. BRAZIL: On the far side of the bed?
SENNEFF: On the far side of the bed.
KAYE: The defense warned against jumping to conclusions.
GOURJIAN: Did you see what Dr. Murray was, in fact, picking up?
SENNEFF: I did not.
GOURJIAN: OK. Isn't it true he was picking up his wallet and his glasses?
SENNEFF: I don't know, sir. The bed was blocking right where his hands were.
KAYE: Jackson was transported to the hospital with Dr. Conrad Murray in the ambulance at his side. He was pronounced dead upon arrival.
COOPER: Randi, a former patient of Dr. Murray's also testified today. What did he say?
KAYE: Anderson, his name is Robert Russell, and he was called by the prosecution, but really in the end, he may have helped the defense, actually, because -- he may have helped the defense more, because he testified that Dr. Murray's treatment and advice actually saved his life.
He said that Murray put stents in his heart and helped him change his bad habits, and this really framed Dr. Murray as a caring and then more importantly, competent doctor. A competent cardiologist.
But the patient did tell the court that he felt, quote, "abandoned" when Dr. Murray closed his practice to go work for Michael Jackson. And that is really what the prosecution wanted to get at. But the guy, Anderson, went on to say, how his new doctor was thrilled about how well his stents from Dr. Murray had held up. So it really seemed to help Dr. Murray more than anything.
And Murray knew it, in fact, because when the guy left the courtroom, Anderson, and walked right past Dr. Murray, Dr. Murray put his hand over his heart and gave him a slight bow.
COOPER: Interesting. Randi, appreciate it.
Let's dig deeper now with chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta and criminal defense attorney Mark Geragos, both in Los Angeles this evening.
Sanjay, in the testimony, we heard from the paramedic. He said he got to the house within five minutes of getting the call. And when he arrived, Dr. Murray proceeded to tell him that Jackson had gone down just before he made the 911 call. The paramedic said that when he touched Jackson, his skin was cold. His pupils were dilated. His eyes were dry. How long would a body have to be dead in order to be in that state?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's sort of interesting the language that they used, Anderson. First, you know, to go from, quote/unquote, being "down" to actually dying. So, you know, somebody who goes down from a cardiac arrest to actually dying, that can be several minutes.
And then at the time that someone dies, several things happen. A lot of the muscles relax immediately in the body. That's why the pupils dilate. That can happen pretty quickly.
As far as the body feeling cool to the touch, that's depending on lots of different things, including the temperature in the bedroom, you know, the overall status of the body before the patient has died. So that's a little bit harder to pinpoint, but it would be at least several minutes for the body to start to cool down. But, again, the pupils dilating pretty quickly after that all happens.
COOPER: and Mark, the time line that the paramedic laid out of events, that they didn't match up with testimony that we heard from Jackson's security guard yesterday. The paramedic said that when he arrived at the house, he saw Murray and the security guard removing Jackson from the bed.
But yesterday the security guard said that was happening while he was making the 911 call. How important do you think that is to the defense?
MARK GERAGOS, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think it is important. I think we talked about it yesterday, Anderson. If you took a look at the cross-examination that happened yesterday, it didn't seem significant until you then heard the testimony today.
They were laying it out. It's one of the reasons I always say, we shouldn't jump into this kind of ESPN analysis of who's ahead until you see how it unfolds. Because the defense knew what they were doing. They knew it wasn't going to play. They knew what the witnesses were coming up, especially the paramedic today, because he's testified before.
And so they were laying the groundwork for, hey, this stuff about -- from the bodyguard just doesn't fit with what the other witnesses say.
COOPER: Well, Sanjay, the paramedic also, though, testified that, when he arrived at the scene, Dr. Murray made no mention of giving Jackson Propofol. The defense, you know, tried to ask the paramedic if he'd have done anything different if he had known that. But the prosecution objected, and we never heard the answer.
How important was it for the paramedics to know what Michael Jackson had been given? I mean, would he have done anything different, had he known Propofol was involved? GUPTA: Well, those are two separate questions. I don't know that he would have done anything differently, Anderson, because by all descriptions -- and you know, the dilated pupils again, the body being cool to the touch -- it sounded like Michael Jackson was already dead. So I don't know that he would have done anything differently.
But the idea that you share everything in a situation like this, all of the various medications, any kind of pertinent medical history, especially a patient's private doctor in seeing that he did talk about Lorazepam as the medication that's been given. So he was talking about medications, but he didn't mention this very unusual medication, unusual in that it's given -- was being given outside a hospital. That's not something you forget, Anderson.
COOPER: Mark, overall what do you think of the job the prosecution has been doing?
GERAGOS: I think it's very workmanlike. In fact, I'm impressed by how quickly they're going. I mean, normally, in cases like this, for whatever reason, prosecutors tend to dilly-dally around. But the prosecution, I think, is doing a workmanlike job.
I think the defense is too. I've been very surprised by both sides. They get in, they get out. Nobody's kind of going into a four corners stall. It's been, I think, so far, a well-tried case on both sides.
COOPER: And Mark, from the defense, I mean, what is going to -- what do you think this is going to boil down to for them?
GERAGOS: Oh, it's clearly -- from my standpoint, at least, it's clearly going to come down to Dr. Wecht's testimony and, to a lesser degree, the prosecution's testimony as to whether or not the levels of Propofol were what caused his death.
Remember, this whole case comes down to, you can say Dr. Murray acted strange. You can say he acted odd. You can say all of those things. Unless the prosecution can convince this jury beyond a reasonable doubt that the medicine or the pharmaceuticals that Dr. Murray gave him caused the death, then it's a "not guilty." So that's where the prosecution is going to kind of rise or fall.
COOPER: And Sanjay, from a medical standpoint, how difficult is it going to prove to show what actually killed him?
GUPTA: Well, you know, if you have a level of Propofol in the body that's essentially consistent with being under general anesthesia, which is at least what some of these coroner reports have shown. And keep in mind, this is an unusual situation. A lot of times, you don't even measure Propofol levels in the hospital, because Propofol, you know, is gone from the body so quickly.
But if they show there were circulating levels of Propofol similar to general anesthesia a few hours later than even when this was administered, that means he had a lot of Propofol in his body at one point. And I think that's going to be pretty compelling. I mean, that's -- you don't give that much Propofol without someone having a breathing tube in, without having monitoring equipment, without having resuscitation equipment. All the things that we've been talking about, Anderson.
COOPER: Sanjay, appreciate it.
Mark Geragos, as well. Thank you.
Up next, the video of Casey Anthony that a Florida judge did not want the jurors to see from the day her daughter's body was found. We're going to see it tonight.
And a "360" follow on the suicide of Jamey Rodemeyer, bullied at school and even after his death. The school district taking action. Details ahead.
SESAY: Anderson's got "The RidicuList" coming up. First, a "360 Bulletin."
For the first time we're seeing video of Casey Anthony on the day her daughter's remains were found. That's Casey rocking and hunched over in the waiting area of a medical facility at a county jail. The trial judge released this today. He said it was too inflammatory for jurors to see.
A white Mississippi teenager accused of murdering an African- American man in a hate crime pleaded not guilty at his arraignment today. Prosecutors say Deryl Dedmon was part of a gang of teens who attacked James Craig Anderson back in June, even running him over with a pickup truck. The incident was recorded on surveillance video.
A "360" follow on the suicide of Jamey Rodemeyer, a 14-year-old from the buffalo, New York, area. School administrator say they've identified the student they believe is responsible for the taunting of his sister and friends, the taunting they endured at a dance the night of his wake. That student has been suspended.
Now "The Connection," stories about technology that's making lives better. You're looking at Oscar Pistorius, the "Blade Runner. Those are very high-tech carbon fiber positive prosthetic limbs. We've learned that next year in London, my fair city, he'll be the first double amputee to compete in the Olympics.
And an emotional first pitch at tonight's American League division series game between the Texas Rangers and Tampa Bay Rays. Cooper Stone, 6-year-old son of the firefighter who fell and died while trying to catch a ball at a Rangers game back in July got a standing ovation for his throw to home plate. Nice job, Cooper.
And, Cooper, back to you.
COOPER: Coming up, "The RidicuList." Going to make you smile before the end of the night. It's a case of excessive sneezing and excessive "bless you'ing." All the way to get on your teacher's nerves. At least in one high-school classroom. That's up next. We'll be right back.
COOPER: Time now for "The RidicuList," and tonight we're adding anyone who sneezes in this guy's classroom. His name is Mr. Cuckovich, and he's a health teacher in California. Now, I guess you could say Mr. Cuckovich runs a pretty tight ship. He definitely does not like disruptions in his classroom, to the point that he reportedly took points off students' grades because they said "bless you" when someone sneezed in class.
Now, before anyone gets all worked up about this, this has absolutely nothing to do with religion. It's a matter of discipline. Take it away, Mr. K [SIC].
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVE CUCKOVICH, HEALTH TEACHER: It's not got anything to do with religion. It's got to do with an interruption of class time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Now, you may be wondering how much can a sneeze possibly interrupt class time? Well, look, we're not talking about a little "achoo" followed by a simple "bless you" here. Oh, no, no, no. In Mr. Cuckovich's classroom one sneeze can apparently lead to utter pandemonium. Rowena Shaddeg (ph) of KTXL, Sacramento, gets to the bottom of it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He said a student sneezes in class, and one student says "bless you" followed by several students that say "bless you." The person who sneezes then has to thank everyone individually.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: So wait a minute. Someone sneezes, a bunch of people say "bless you," and then the original sneezer thanks each student individually? This is simultaneously the most disruptive and most polite classroom in America.
It sounds like the kids are playing a prank. Has anyone checked their backpacks for snuff? If there's one thing I know, it's that the kids today, they love to snuff.
It isn't just the disruption that bothers Mr. Cuckovich. It's the relevance of the "bless you" to begin with.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CUCKOVICH: The blessing doesn't really make any sense anymore. When you sneezed in the old days they thought you were dispelling evil spirits out of your body. So they were saying "God bless you" for getting rid of the evil spirits. But today I say really what you're doing doesn't make any sense anymore. (END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: He has a point. Nowadays we all know that a sneeze isn't dispelling evil spirits. A sneeze is actually doing whatever a sneeze does. Whatever, ask Mr. Cuckovich. I'm not the health teacher here. I do agree with him that it's kind of passe. I know that I stopped saying "bless you" the minute I saw this on "Seinfeld."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JERRY SEINFELD, COMEDIAN: If you want to make a person feel better when they sneeze, you shouldn't say "God bless you." You should say, "You're so good looking."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: How much do you want to bet the students in that class are now going to start saying that? I'm sorry, Mr. K [SIC].
But really, I'm thinking why go after the students who say "bless you"? Let's get to the real problem here, the sneezers themselves. Let's get these -- these kids some Claritin stat.
The principal says the school does not condone docking students' grades because they say "bless you," and Mr. Cuckovich says he won't do that any more but isn't going to stop disciplining for disruptions.
All -- look, I'm all for discipline in a classroom. This is how it starts, though, with the sneezing and the "bless you'ing," and if you don't draw the line, the next thing you know, they students are going to be cough. They're going to be blowing their noses, handing each other cough drops. It's a complete free-for-all.
Students say Mr. Cuckovich is a great teacher and that this has all got blown out of proportion. So you just keep fighting the good fight, Mr. K [SIC]. Keep fighting the Gesundheit.
And that's it for 360. Thanks for watching. "CNN PRESENTS Murder Abroad: The Amanda Knox Story" is next.