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Amanda Knox Freed from Italian Prison; Herman Cain Hits Rick Perry On Ranch Issue; Doctor At UCLA Medical Center Testified At Murray's Trial

Aired October 3, 2011 - 20:00   ET


ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Erin, thanks very much.

And good evening, everyone.

Breaking news tonight from Italy. The best news imaginable for the family of Amanda Knox. In just a few hours she will be heading home, we're told, and here's how that happy ending began.

Take a look. You can see the story in a single picture. Just imagine the emotion behind this. The shot taken just as the verdict came in overturning her murder conviction in the death of her roommate Meredith Kercher. Ending nearly four years behind bars for the American exchange student from Seattle.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE (Through Translator): Acquit of offense of charges A, B, C, D and with regard to E, because the fight didn't happen. So we're overturned. So Knox Amanda is free and Sollecito Raffaele as well.


COOPER: Well, Knox and her boyfriend -- her then boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito both exonerated on murder charges. Now the court is upholding Knox's slander conviction but sentencing her in effect to time served.

The jury, which also included two judges, had powerful incentive to overturn including evidence casting doubt on the state's DNA evidence and Amanda Knox's own words earlier today.


AMANDA KNOX, FREED FROM ITALIAN PRISON: I am the same person I was four years ago. Exactly the same person. The only thing that separates me now from four years ago is my suffering. In four years, I've lost my friends in the most terrible and unexplainable way. My trust in authorities and the police has been damaged. I had to face charges that were totally unfair without any basis and I'm paying with my life for something that I haven't done.

Meredith has been murdered and I always wanted justice for her. I am not escaping the truth and I never tried to escape that truth. I insist on the truth. I insist that after four desperate years, I insist on my innocence, our innocence because it's true, and it got to be defended and recognized.


COOPER: Well, outside the courtroom competing outcries from onlookers, some shouting victory, victory as the legal team laughed, others yelling shame, shame. Amanda's sister Deanna read a brief family statement.


DEANNA KNOX, AMANDA KNOX'S SISTER: We are thankful for the support we have received from all over the world. People who took the time to research the case and could see that Amanda and Raffaele were innocent. And last we are thankful to the court for having the courage to look for the truth and to overturn this conviction.


COOPER: Well, Knox herself said nothing leaving the prison in a two- car convoy after briefly picking up her belongings and saying her good-bye. She's reportedly in Rome preparing to depart sometime early tomorrow local time for Seattle.

Matthew Chance was in the courtroom in Perugia when the verdict came in. He joins us now.

What's the latest you're hearing? Where is Amanda Knox right now and do we know what her plans are for the next few hours?

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's an undisclosed location. We understand she's staying at a villa with her family. She's reuniting with her family and friends that have come over to support her. Obviously -- presumably celebrating her dramatic acquittal from these murder charges and her release from her 26-year prison sentence. I suspect she's got a lot to talk about, a lot to celebrate.

Her plans over the next -- as you just mentioned, according to the family, according to the lawyers that we've spoken to, she wants to get home as soon as possible back to Seattle so she can pick up, you know, the pieces of her shattered life. It's something that she said she wanted to do since she was arrested four years ago, and since she was sentenced in 2009 for the killing of Meredith Kercher.

COOPER: Matthew, I mentioned you were in the courtroom. I was watching on television. And I couldn't tell what the reaction in the court was. I mean I heard all these sounds but it was very hard to kind of understand whether people were yelling at her or for her. What was it like?

CHANCE: It was very emotional indeed. The sounds that you could hear in the court were the sort of hoots and yelps and cheers of the Knox family. They were the only ones making the noise really. They were so euphoric. They couldn't believe that this nightmare for them had come to an end.

Amanda Knox herself was, you know, overwhelmed with emotion. She could barely walk. She was crying so much as they escorted her out of court. And so she was very much overcome with the emotion of the -- of the moment. Very tense situation because also the Kerchers were in the room -- the courtroom and the sister of Meredith Kercher, the mother of Meredith Kercher, the murdered girl as well. And they had the opposite reaction, of course. They were very upset, very sad, and they were crying because of this acquittal.

COOPER: And I know they feel like she's the forgotten victim in all of this. And we're actually going to give you a profile of Meredith Kercher a little bit later on in the program just on this day when the family of Amanda Knox is celebrating, which, you want to remember the family of another victim in all of this, Meredith Kercher. That's coming up.

Matthew, thank you.

I want to turn now to Drew Griffin who's in Amanda Knox's hometown Seattle. Also with us here, senior legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin, and former L.A. deputy district attorney Marcia Clark, author of the book "Guilt by Association."

So, Jeff, in your opinion, was this the correct verdict?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Absolutely. I mean this was really a terrible case. There were two pieces of evidence against her. There was this confession that was clearly discombobulated and false and a piece of DNA that was completely discredited, plus the real killer is in prison.

Rudy Guede had all his DNA, all his blood, it's all at the murder scene. We know who did this. And the prosecution of Amanda Knox and her boyfriend, it just seemed inexplicable to me.

COOPER: And Marcia, a lot of this hinged on DNA evidence that was later reversed or later ruled basically useless.

MARCIA CLARK, FORMER LOS ANGELES DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Yes, exactly. And Anderson, you know, it's one of these things where you look at, now you think, well, why didn't nobody look at this at the time of trial? Why did this even get this far if it was this badly handled?

And of course on appeal we discovered it was. But they have a different system there. And in trial, unlike here, where we really weed it all out before we ever get to court, there it seemed as though they go to trial, and then they weed it out on appeal, whereas here an appeal is a very limited thing. So they have a different balance.

The bad news about that system is that people go to trial and sit in prison waiting for an appeal who probably shouldn't be there.

COOPER: Right. And she's already served four years.

CLARK: Four years.


TOOBIN: And what made today so incredibly dramatic is in the Italian system, it's -- the stakes were much higher than usual. The court could have increased her sentence. In an American appeal, you can't -- you know, you can't get a longer sentence. But the Italian prosecutors asked for a life sentence. So she was looking at anywhere between life and going home today.

COOPER: Incredible.

TOOBIN: It's pretty incredible.

COOPER: The pressure must just have been extraordinary.

Drew, you're in Amanda Knox's hometown Seattle. What are you hearing from friends and family, from people there?

DREW GRIFFIN, CNN SPECIAL INVESTIGATIONS UNIT CORRESPONDENT: Well, I mean they are just elated that this nightmare is finally over. Looking forward to her coming home, hopefully tomorrow. Hoping to hear from her, although the family has told us in the past that they were going to let Amanda Knox to decide when and if she talks to the media. They're very concerned about the pressure that she'll be under when she does get back to the States.

COOPER: Marcia, it was interesting to watch the courtroom. I mean it seems like kind of chaos. It just seemed so disorganized compared to a U.S. courtroom.

CLARK: Doesn't it?


CLARK: I was impressed by the same thing. It's like people are just kind of milling around and --

COOPER: I was like, who are all these people and what are they doing?


CLARK: Yes. And it's so crowded there you could barely see here.


CLARK: They engulf her. And then all of a sudden she's moving and a whole crowd is moving around her. And it does seem a lot less orderly.

TOOBIN: And I have to say I got a kick out of the crucifix behind the judge. That's not something exactly you'd see in an American courtroom.

(CROSSTALK) COOPER: Are you surprised that she's still spending -- that she's spending the night on Italian soil? Or do you think she -- I mean there was a lot of talk about her trying to get out right away. I don't know what her access is to planes.

CLARK: Right. I mean she probably is getting out right away. At the last minute she probably couldn't book the flight until she knew what the verdict was. Right? So I think maybe she is getting out as soon as she can.

COOPER: What's the expectation, Drew, for the next 24 to 48 hours? Is she -- do we know when she's going to return directly to Seattle?

GRIFFIN: That's the plan. The family had been talking about a big barbecue. She's a barbecue fan. Her stepfather brought her barbecue when she was in that prison outside Perugia. So that is the plan. But again, you know, they say that Amanda Knox really -- even though this case is huge and even though she had access, that Amanda really didn't know how big this case was internationally in scope. And they are very concerned about how she will handle it.

Anderson, I just want to, you know, point out to your viewers, I sat down with this prosecutor Giuliano Magnini, and to understand how it got to this point, you have to understand this man. In my interview, he was a guy who would step over the obvious path that the evidence led to and look for conspiracy theories to explain how this evidence could fit into his version of what this crime was.

And I think a lot of how this came to this point, this four years in prison, was developed out of Giuliano Magnini's mind and his conspiracy theories that he just would not shake even though the evidence was pointing in different directions.

COOPER: Drew, I remember that interview you did. And I was really stunned. I think if -- and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I vaguely recall him saying something like, well, my -- when I went to the crime scene, my instinct just told me she had done it.

GRIFFIN: Yes. He showed up on the very first day, Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito were comforting each other outside the apartment. And from that moment, he knew somehow those two people were guilty.

And when the evidence came back, remember, Patrick Lumumba was also arrested. Based on the confession of Amanda Knox. Well, the police had just checked her own confession, which she said was coerced, they would have known that Patrick Lumumba had an airtight alibi. He was running his bar with a lot of people in his bar that night. So they had to let him go.

Then the DNA comes back and they still include Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox even though none of that forensic evidence was there to prove they were at the crime scene.

COOPER: Yes. Marcia, why do people give confessions that are false to police? I mean we hear this time and time again. I think a lot of people are always asked that question. Well, how -- I would never confess to the police. I mean what -- how does that happen?

CLARK: Until you're under the gun, until you're a -- especially look at her, for example. A young girl in a foreign country who feels very alone and very frightened. And perhaps being on some level whether it's implicit or explicit assured that if she does admit some kind of culpability, she'll get out eventually. It'll be better for her if she tells the truth right now.

There's that kind of a promise and implicit threat that if you don't tell the truth right now, as they see it, it will go much worse for you. So, you know, picture her alone in that situation.

COOPER: Right.


TOOBIN: Happens all the time.


COOPER: And even to people who under normal circumstances would be, like, no, there's no way I could ever do that.

TOOBIN: Right. And keep in mind that Amanda Knox is 20 years old. She's only been in Italy for two months and her Italian is shaky at best. And she's being interrogated in Italian.

COOPER: Also, Drew, the whole idea that this was some sort of sexcapade on the part of her boyfriend and her, she had only been dating this guy -- I think you revealed in your report, for eight days.

GRIFFIN: That's absolutely right. And in our interview with the prosecutor, he said, he sloughed it off, said, I have no idea where that all sex orgy thing came from. Well, he was quoted as being the source of that.

Back to the point of the confession, you know, Amanda Knox told her parents -- and this is why her parents are also in trouble because they repeated this -- that the police harangued her for 15 hours. They didn't give her water. There was no translation accurately given to her. She didn't speak fluent Italian like she does now back when this happened.

And according to her, she said she was asked to imagine what could have happened. Now I talked to other people that were interrogated by Magnini. And they said, listen, in separate crimes we were asked to imagine what would happen. And I have the Amanda Knox confession, which by the way was thrown out of court. And in it she says at the very end, I do not remember if Meredith was screaming and if I heard some thuds, too, because I was upset -- comma -- but I imagine what could have happened.

So, you know, I'm not sure what happened in this confession, but it was after many, many hours of interrogation when she says she was in a room with limited translation being provided by a police officer, not an actual Italian to English translator.

COOPER: Right.

Drew, appreciate the reporting, thank you. Jeff, as well, and Marcia Clark, thanks for being here.

Let us know what you think. We're on Facebook. Follow me on Twitter @Andersoncooper. I'll be throwing tweet over the course of this hour.

Up next, how doubts about DNA evidence helped free Amanda Knox. We'll be joined by an expert from Idaho's Innocence Project. We'll also take a look at the victim in all this, Meredith Kercher, not forgetting her tonight.

Later the controversy over Rick Perry's old hunting grounds. The old name of the place is a racial slur. Perry's people claimed it's ancient history. The sign, they say, was painted over decades ago. "The Washington Post" says it's closer to current events.

We're "Keeping Them Honest."

But first let's check in with Isha Sesay -- Isha.

gripping testimony yet in the Michael Jackson death trial.

Two emergency room doctors taking the stand telling jurors what happened as they try to revive their patient. And they say what crucial fact that Dr. Conrad Murray failed to mention. That and much more when 360 continues.


COOPER: Again, our breaking news tonight, in just a few hours later this morning local time, Amanda Knox is expected to leave Italy. Earlier tonight this was the scene, a van followed by the black Mercedes with her in the back departing the prison. Her conviction in the killing of Meredith Kercher overturned late today by an appeals court in Perugia where the murder took place and where the two women shared an apartment.

Now as you've seen already, this is being viewed as vindication for Amanda Knox, recognition that justice was not done in her original trial. But for some it's another way of saying that justice wasn't done either for the victim.


COOPER (voice-over): Meredith Kercher's family feels she's become the forgotten victim.

STEPHANIE KERCHER, SISTER OF VICTIM: It's very difficult to kind of keep her memory alive in all of this.

COOPER: Kercher was just 21 years old when she was raped and murdered, her body found partially naked, her throat slashed. KERCHER: The brutality of what actually happened that night and everything that Meredith must have felt that night, everything that she went through, the fear and the terror, and not knowing why, and she didn't deserve that. No one deserves that.

COOPER: Kercher was the youngest of four kids. Growing up she loved poetry, gymnastics and ballet.

MAUREEN LEVY, NEIGHBOR: She was nice. She was clever, and there's not enough metaphors to say how nice she was.

COOPER: Her friends and family remember Kerchers as someone who always cared for others, always wanted to lend a helping hand.

LYLE KERCHER, BROTHER OF VICTIM: We (INAUDIBLE) the most when we saw and met up for things like her birthday and Christmas which is around couple of months off now and her absence is huge really.

COOPER: Kercher, a third year student at the University of Leeds, was in Italy to study European politics and Italian. To raise money for the trip, she worked a job at Gatwick Airport near her home south of London. Her father John told the "Daily Telegraph," quote, "She fought so hard to get out there. There were quite a few setback, but she was determined to go and kept persisting and eventually got what she wanted."

Once in Perugia, Kercher moved into this villa with Amanda Knox.

ARLINE KERCHER, MOTHER OF VICTIM: I think they were friendly, but I wouldn't say they were that close.


A. KERCHER: Because they were moving in different circles and at different levels as well.

COOPER: For Kercher the study abroad program in Italy was the opportunity of a lifetime, until that violent night her life and future were stolen. And now that an Italian jury has thrown out the murder convictions of Knox and her then boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito, Kercher's family is left wondering whether justice was served.

L. KERCHER: I think it's difficult to sort of think of forgiveness at this point. As I say four years on the one hand is a very long time. On the other, it's not -- you know, it's still very raw.

A. KERCHER: We need to find out what happened. And it's not really a question of reaching out or -- you know, joining them in anything. It is to find out what happened to Meredith. And to get some justice for her really.


COOPER: It's hard to imagine your daughter dying in a far away land and feeling that you don't really know what happened even four years after her murder. Let's dig deeper now in the scientific evidence the prosecutors continued to maintain tied Amanda Knox and her boyfriend to the crime. It's the same evidence that the appeals jury felt wanting.

Joining us now is Greg Hampikian. He's a professor of biology at Boise State University and director of the Idaho Innocence Project.

Greg, thanks for being with us. You said Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, her then-boyfriend, should have been released four years ago because the scientific evidence just wasn't there to support the prosecution's case. How so?

GREG HAMPIKIAN, DNA EXPERT: I mean I think we see the tragedy of misapplied science in that you've shown the Kerchers, they're now in a state of -- you know just utter despair because they were led down a certain road. But the DNA that was done the day of the murder in that room where their daughter was killed was done perfectly well.

And I've watched all the videos and seen the collection and gone through all the analysis. All of that DNA pointed to Rudy Guede, one person. And the tragedy here is that gut feeling, the gut feeling of the prosecutor trumped the science. And because of that, we have added more victims to this crime.

You have three families devastated.


HAMPIKIAN: And you have the first -- the first victim's family in this terrible state where they don't know who to trust now.


HAMPIKIAN: So that's the problem when you refuse to give up a gut feeling when the science comes back and shows you you were wrong.

COOPER: You've got involved in this case back in 2009. You conducted tests, basically re-creating how the police collected the evidence. What did that show you?

HAMPIKIAN: Well, we collected tests where I told my research associates to change their gloves every other time, every other piece of evidence. Kind of -- we didn't see them change gloves much at all in the video. And when they did that, we saw the same type of contamination that was seen in this case.

We saw innocent DNA from some soda cans we collected from the staff of my dean's office ended up on some knives because my staff was only changing their gloves every other piece of evidence.

COOPER: So wait a minute. Explain that to me.


COOPER: What's the important of changing the gloves? HAMPIKIAN: Well, you know, the principle of DNA transfer is that it is so easy to move DNA. If I want to move your fingerprint from a glass, your traditional fingerprint, it's impossible or difficult at least. But your DNA, I just have to rub it with my finger and rub it on a gun or a knife, and your DNA is moved.

Now if I'm wearing a glove, the only DNA that shows up in the gun is your DNA that I transferred from your soda can, from your skin. And so we showed that that's what happened, especially when you do what they you do -- what they did in Italy. They did not stick with the traditional cutoff, which is about what we call 200 RFUs or 150. They went down to a very, very low level. We did that in my laboratory, we saw contamination.


COOPER: RFUs, that's a level of DNA?

HAMPIKIAN: Yes. I'm sorry to use --

COOPER: That's OK.

HAMPIKIAN: That's the relative fluorescent unit. So for example the FBI says that they won't report for -- to incriminate someone levels that are below 200, my lab we use 150 at our cutoff. We validated that. Some labs may be go down to 100.

I've seen a few that have validated their approach to 50. But in this case they looked at the knife that implicated Amanda, they looked for Meredith Kercher's DNA, didn't find it at 200, lowered it to 100, they started to see it, and then brought it down to something like 15. And if I do that in my lab, I'm going to find, you know, my kid's DNA transferred on my hands.

COOPER: Wow. That's amazing.

HAMPIKIAN: At such small levels. Yes. So that's why we set those levels. We set them at levels. That's why the FBI does what they say. We're sure when we do it at this level, it's real. And unfortunately, the gut feeling was supported by bad science in this case.


HAMPIKIAN: It's ruined two more families.


HAMPIKIAN: It will take them a long time to get over this.

COOPER: Yes. It sure will. It's fascinating stuff.

Greg Hampikian, I appreciate your expertise. Thanks for being on.

HAMPIKIAN: Thank you. Thanks, Anderson. COOPER: Up next tonight, thick clouds of black smoke causing -- caused by a fire at a chemical plant in Texas. Forced a nearby school in a neighborhood to evacuate. Take a look at those images. We're going to have the latest on that.

And the latest on Dr. Conrad Murray's trial. The death trial of Michael Jackson. Damning details emerged from the emergency room -- from the doctors in the emergency room who tried to save Michael Jackson's life when he arrived at the hospital. Details ahead.


COOPER: Coming up, Rick Perry on the defensive over racially charged campaign controversy. We're "Keeping Them Honest." But first Isha joins with a "360 Bulletin".

SESAY: Anderson, officials say preliminary tests show there is no threat to the public from a fire at a Texas chemical plant. Buildings within an eight-block radius of the plant in Waxahachie, Texas, were evacuated including a school. The cause of the fire isn't known. No one was injured.

More dates being set in the Republican presidential race. South Carolina has scheduled its primary for January 21st to stay ahead of Florida. Last week Florida scheduled its primary for late January violating the Republican Party calendar rules that say only Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina and Nevada can hold primaries before March 6th.

A Nobel Prize is going to a man who died just days before being named a winner. Biologist Ralph Steinman died of pancreatic cancer Friday. The Nobel committee was unaware of his death when it had announced he won the Nobel Prize in physiology or medicine.

And Andy Rooney signed off from "60 Minutes" last night, capping a career of more than six decades. It was his 1,097th essay for the show. But Rooney said he's not retiring because writers don't retire and he'll always be a writer.

Anderson, one of his colleagues calling him America's favorite grouch in chief.

COOPER: He's a great guy. It's hard to imagine "60 Minutes" without him.


COOPER: By the way, is it shed-yule or schedule? Because on these shores, it's schedule.

SESAY: Well, I'm here to change things up on these shores. I think its shed-yule.

COOPER: I think we need to shed-yule. Maybe some -

SESAY: Some classes? COOPER: Some classes of some sort.

SESAY: May we have this as I'll be pushing my shopping trolley.

COOPER: In your shopping trolley right and filled it your aluminium carts.


SESAY: Be gone with you.

COOPER: Tallyho.

Time now for the shot, imagine being 29 years old and hearing your voice for the first time. Here's what it was like for Sloan Sherman who was born deaf recently received an implantable hearing aid. We found this on you tube. Take a look.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's beeping. Now technically the light is on. Oh, it's exciting. You can put it down for a second. Just get used to the sound. What does it sound like?


COOPER: Sloan's husband videotaped that moment when the device was activated. The video has gone viral. It's obviously not hard to see why. We wish her the best. Just incredible.

Jus ahead, the new controversy that has hit Rick Perry's presidential campaign involving a deeply offensive racist slur in the name of a ranch the family has been associated with. Which story is true? Kind a sort after that, keeping them honest tonight.

Plus remember the guy convicted on Lockerbie bombing that was released from scavenge person sent back to Libya? A guy suppose lid on his death bed? He just gave an interview to Reuters. We will hear what he says.


COOPER: Keeping them honest tonight, about a campaign controversy centered on an ugly name out of Rick Perry's past. It is ugly and offensive. You'll only hear it once and not from us. It was the older name of the ranch that Governor Perry has hunted on for years and that his father invested in back in 1993. The current name is Crooked River Ranch. The old name, as we said, was offensive. Perry's opponent, Herman Cain was asked about it after it surfaced in "The Washington Post."


HERMAN CAIN (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The name of the place is called nigger head. That's very insensitive. And since Governor Perry has been going there for years to hunt, I think it shows a lot of insensitivity for a long time of not taking that word off of that rock and renaming the place. This is just a basic case of insensitivity.


COOPER: Now, Cain has since backed away from his words saying he's satisfied with Perry's explanation and that he's neither attacking the governor nor he says playing the race card, that's a quote. As for the governor, he's taken strong exception to the "Post" story. He's campaigning for (inaudible) "a number of claims made in the story are incorrect, inconsistent, and anonymous." As for the last part, anonymous sourcing, that is true. The "Post" has no attempt to conceal it.

Both Governor Perry in his campaign said that Perry's father painted over the offensive name back in 1983 or '84. "The Post" cites seven people most anonymously, some who say they saw the word more recently. Keeping them honest, their recollections of when they saw it range from the 1980s to the 1990s to as little as three years ago. Remember, the Perry campaign said the word was painted over no later than '83 or '84. There's a lot of daylight between the two sides.

Here to talk about it Erick Erickson, editor of chief of, former George W. Bush press secretary Ari Fleischer now a CNN contributor and available on twitter #arifleisher. Also political analyst and devote Texan Roland Martin.

So Roland, Perry's supporters are saying, look, this is basically slanderous, this article. Nobody's saying that Rick Perry chose this name of the farm or of the ranch or painted it on that rock. Is he getting a raw deal here?

ROLAND S. MARTIN, CNN POLOTICAL ANALYST: First of all, this is to suggest its slanderous makes no sense. The reality is there are people who are saying - some people were quoted, their names used, in that "Washington Post" story that that was a name on a rock. It was very visible. He said we painted over it.

And so look, if you're the campaign and you say there are some inconsistent statements, but you know what? You knock them down. You knock them out of the way. So therefore, I read their statement. But look, you must knock this thing down. Be very clear and at the end of the day, is the rock still there? Are you still going there? And remove it. It makes no sense. Forget painting over it. Just destroy it. It makes no sense at all.

COOPER: Erick, you agree with the critics who said this was slanderous. You stick by that, slanderous how so?

ERCIK ERICKSON, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, you know, this is an attack on Rick Perry trying to paint him as a racist. You know, these come up all the time. I don't think anyone who knows Rick Perry would think he's a racist. And to be fair here, his father didn't invest in this property. It was a hunting lease, which are pretty common in a lot of plays. And you just have access to the land to hunt on, you don't control or manage or own it.

And then you know the statement that the rock may or may not have been seen, I haven't seen any pictures of the rock to see what its current condition is. I don't know if there are any pictures of the rock that his father painted over it, the paint faded. They at some point tipped the rock over or someone did. The rock was set up again. I mean to tie this in to Rick Perry and say that Rick Perry is a racist or this is the product of being raised in the south or in west Texas, it's really making a mountain out what I really think is a mole hill.

COOPER: Ari, you think the impression that Perry is being unfairly attacked may actually help him here?

ARI FLEISCHER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, there's certainly has been conservative rallying to Rick Perry and a backlash. I think it's a large part because what Erick is talking about, there's this sense in Republican politics that almost does no matter who you are, what you do, you will get accused of being a racist. When it happens, people rally.

But there is another side of it here and that's sensitivity. You know I do think - for heaven's sake, if you're African-American and you heard that somebody had a piece of land even though they didn't own it and they didn't name it. To have that name, of course that's going to get your back up. That's human nature and understandable.

But to defend the governor here, it is a fact, he didn't name it. He didn't own it. He had two percent of that entire ranch that he got to use for hunting. I asked the Perry campaign today, why didn't, they just get rid of the rock. Apparently it's some gigantic bolder. It's not the type of thing that you can just throw out. I think the intention was clear in the '80s, 30 years ago when they said they painted it over, that they objected to the name. That's I think what's most important here.

MARTIN: Anderson, look, here's the deal. And I totally understand what Ari said. But isn't it is a question of what you do in your own life? It's no different to me than if somebody decides to join an all-male golf club or a golf club that excludes African-Americans, it is going to come up. And so it speaks to an individual.

So is this going to be, to me, a long-lasting story? No, of course not. Herman Cain has backed off of it. No other Republican candidates are making an issue out of it. But no doubt if you're on the Republican side, the last thing you want is Rick Perry having to deal with this story. Already he's having difficulty over the whole debate issue. And so the party is trying to figure out who is the candidate, who frankly can be strong enough to go against President Obama. So it doesn't help them hymn, but I doubt very seriously it will knock him out of the campaign. And some other likely in 48 hours, it's gone.

COOPER: Ari, is this the kind of story as a press secretary you would advise your candidate, look, just put out a statement or campaign aides put out a statement but don't necessarily come on camera and say something about it? FELISCHER: This is the classic issue where he would have brought it up himself if he could have done so. This is a type of thing that when he's giving the speech about racial relations in America and immigration, as he has open and took immigrants, could have talked about insensitivity.

And for example my family had a lease on land and 30 years ago it said this. We covered that up because it was wrong. We painted that. If he had brought it out himself, it would have been very different. He didn't have time because he got in so late. So he was hit with a story and now has to react to it. He will have to deal with it himself in person. I think that's just how the press corps operates. Next time he's on the trail and reporters see him, they're going to ask him anyway. So, I don't think he can just say that he's handled it. But this will fade in a matter of days. This is not the stuff of major politics or something that will last long.

COOPER: Erick, did you see this as a head shot by "the Washington Post"? I mean would this have been the same story - ?

ERCIKSON: Yes, you know, I did. Well, it was the media research center that pointed out in two days "The Washington Post" has already dedicated more words to this story than they did to the entire Jeremiah Wright controversy back in 2008. But I mean likewise, I mean "The Washington Post" says the history of this back 2007, during the McDonnell's election. They never covered the Virginia governor's race in "the Washington Post" in the front page section except for five days. The first day contained seven articles about Bob McDonnell having race issues. And then in the next four days, subsequent stories on Bob McDonnell have a racist issue until someone pointed out that (inaudible) had issues with the confederate flag suddenly the story went back to the metro section.

MARTIN: But here's the deal, Anderson. I'm sure al gore is sitting at home how many people did stories about him created the internet. Look, you have people on the left, on the right, Democrats and Republicans who campaign about stories all the time. And so to say it's a hit job here, say FOX News does this. They say "The New York Times" does that. The reality is when you run for president you're going to get these kinds of stories. You deal with them up front. And then you move on.

COOPER: Let's move on. Erick Erickson, Ari Fleischer, Roland Martin. Thank you very much.

Still ahead tonight, gripping testimony in the Michael Jackson death trial. Emergency room doctors describing the measures they took to revive Michael Jackson even though he was clearly dead by the time he arrived and beyond help. What did Doctor Murray said to the emergency workers.

Plus, the latest on a mission that has been stalled by bad weather, looking for earthquake damage at the Washington monument. Be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) COOPER: Crime and punishment, inside the Michael Jackson death trial. Inside the Los Angeles courtroom when Doctor Conrad Murray's facing manslaughter charges, the prosecution once again called witnesses to describe what they saw and heard and did on June 25th, 2009, the day Jackson died. Two emergency room doctors testified in really gripping detail about the extraordinary measures they took to revive Michael Jackson, even though they were certain he was dead. They also described a crucial fact that Doctor Murray never shared with them even as he urged them to save Jackson. Here's Randi Kaye.


RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: In the struggle to save Michael Jackson, Doctor Conrad Murray thought he felt a pulse, but emergency room doctors from UCLA Medical Center testified they didn't feel a thing. Still, they pushed ahead with efforts to revive Jackson at Murray's urging.

DOCTOR THAO NGUYEN, CARDIOLOGIST: Doctor Murray did ask me one thing, and he repeated the same request to Doctor Cruz, that we not give up easily and try to save Mister Michael Jackson's life.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that what you were trying to do?


KAYE: Emergency responders were ready to declare Jackson dead at home but Murray insist head be transported to the hospital.

DOCTOR ROCHELLE COOPER, EMERGENCY ROOM PHYSICIAN: My assessment when he arrived was that he was clinically dead. The resuscitation effort would likely be futile.

KAYE: Doctors Cooper and Nguyen pressed Murray about what drugs Jackson had been given. Doctor Nguyen told the jury Murray never mentioned the powerful anesthetic propofol even though according to the police affidavit he gave him 25 milligrams of propofol at 10:40 a.m., not long before Jackson stopped breathing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He never mentioned propofol to you?

NGUYEN: Absolutely not.

KAYE: Doctor Cooper testified Friday that even if Murray had told them about propofol, it would not have changed the outcome because Jackson had, "died long before." Still, prosecutors wanted to make clear to the jury how dangerous the drug is and how rarely it's used outside a hospital.

NGUYEN: It is not anywhere in the hospital. It is designated place with designated personnel and equipment available. By equipment, I mean a crash cart should be available. Propofol could cause severe lung collapse, respiratory collapse, breathing collapse, and it could cause cardiovascular collapse. And propofol does not have an antidote.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you're prepared for any consequences.

NGUYEN: Yes. It is a must.

KAYE: Doctor Nguyen also painted a picture for the jury of a flustered Conrad Murray who couldn't remember what time he called for help.

NGUYEN: And I asked him from the time that he found that the patient was down, what was the time that EMS or the 911 was called. And he couldn't remember that either. He said he did not have any concept of time. He did not have a watch.

KAYE: The defense tried its best to show if Conrad Murray had given Jackson only 25 milligrams of propofol, that it couldn't have killed him. A key to the defense's theory that Jackson must have taken lorazepam tablets and ingested more propofol, without Conrad Murray knowing.

ROCHELLE COOPER: I couldn't imagine I would give a dose at 25 milligrams to an otherwise healthy 60kg male and give it over three to five minutes because I would not expect that that would produce any level of sedation.

KAYE: Employees from two cell phone companies also testified about Conrad Murray's cell phone records. They told the jury Murray got a call at 11:07 a.m. and placed four calls himself after that. The question is if Murray gave Jackson propofol at 10:40 a.m., was he monitoring him and making those calls from inside the room or had he stepped out for longer than his lawyers say he did? Those call times are key in determining what Conrad Murray was doing in the hours before Jackson died. Randi Kaye, CNN, Los Angeles.


COOPER: Still to come, the ridiculist coming up, first Isha is back with the 360 News and Business Bulletin. Isha?

SESAY: Anderson, the only man convicted of blowing up a Pan Am jet over Lockerbie, Scotland in 1988, tells Reuters new facts about the case will be announced in a few months. Abdelbasset al-Megrahi told the news agency the truth will come out one day and hopefully in the near future. Al-Megrahi's comments come five weeks after CNN's own Nic Robertson visited him in Libya where his family said he was in a coma and near dead from prostate cancer. Court released him from prison in 2009 for medical reasons.

Here at home, the minimum wage is expected to rise in eight states, Ohio, Colorado, Montana, Washington, Oregon, Arizona, Florida and Vermont. Next year Washington workers will earn the highest minimum wage in the U.S., $9.04 an hour.

Engineers have resumed their inspection of the Washington monument. They are rappelling down the landmark looking for damage from that magnitude 5.8 earthquake that hit in August. Their work was suspended for a couple of days due to high winds. And Anderson, in Australia, a new world record to tell you about. The largest bikini parade was held over the weekend, 357 women took part. That would have been more. Four women were disqualified for being overdressed. As my mother would say, this is what happens when people have too much time on their hands.

COOPER: Overdressed? How do you overdress to a bikini competition? I don't understand.

SESAY: You know I'm going to let you use your imagination. I have no idea.

COOPER: Interesting.

SESAY: To be investigated.

COOPER: To be investigated. So do you call them bikinis, in England?

SESAY: We do. I would say mummy, but I was scared of you mocking me again.

COOPER: Oh, shed-yule.

Alright, coming up, in related news, hooter's files a lawsuit. They wanted to up on the ridiculist. Not about the recipe for chicken wings. We'll be right back.


COOPER: Time for the ridiculist. And tonight, we're adding a lawsuit that hooters have filed against the rival restaurant chain for allegedly stealing its trade secrets. That's right, hooters has trade secrets. I know what you're thinking. What's so secret about the hooters business model? They kind of put everything right out there, don't they?

Perhaps, it's the secret of which brand of pantyhose that a food server professionals should wear with orange short shorts or how to scrub out a wing sauce stain out of a tank top that's already stretched beyond its limits.

But the company says it's so much more. In the lawsuit, hooter said, one of the former vice presidents downloaded a bunch of documents from everything of management or recruiting right before he left to - wait for it - twin peaks. Yup, Twin peaks. A restaurant chain where the motto is eat, drink, scenic views. And just look at the place, it's totally different from hooters. I mean it's an authentic mountain lodge, where the authenticity of the mountain lodge atmosphere is, very, well, it's very authentic. Just ask the owner.


RANDY DEWITT, OWNER, TWIN PEAKS: It's an authentic mountain lodge. And you know we feel like every guy deserves to relax in an authentic mountain lodge, drink 29 degree draft beer and be catered to by a beautiful lumber-Jill. (END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Scoff if you will, but come on, 29 degrees? That is a cold beer. Apparently beer temperature is a corner stone of the mammary themed restaurant game. Check this out from the first ever hooters commercial.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you know why our beer's so cold here at hooters? Because we keep it in the refrigerator.

Hey, kids, want to do your dad a really big favor? Tell your mom you want to go to hooters. (END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: That's right, kids, do dad a favor, tell your mom you want to go to hooters. Hooters is fun for the whole family from 1983. That's when the first hooters opened. Nowadays, they're firmly planted in 28 different countries. Yes, Hooters is that big. There are more than 430 of them. The world is riddled with Hooters.

So far, Twin Peaks only has 15 restaurants in five states although it does plan to enlarge. Look, I got to say, every time I say Twin Peak, I think of David Lynch's TV show from the early '90s.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This cherry pie is a miracle. Would you please ask the lady with the log to speak up?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Would you like some pie?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Massive, massive quantities, and a glass of water, sweetheart. My socks are on fire.


COOPER: See, now the double our diner, that was a cool restaurant. As far as the Hooters and Twin Peaks feud in serious business, there are serious rivalries, Coke versus Pepsi, Ford versus Chevy, Burger King versus McDonalds. Giants of industries, all coexisting. Is there not room for two in the bra-centric bar food business? Is there anything else Hooters and Twin Peaks are paired and belonged together. At lease on the ridiculist.

Thanks for watching. I'll see you at 10:00 p.m. Eastern tonight for another edition of 360.