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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Vets Charity Rip-Off?; The Other Romney Record
Aired May 23, 2012 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: And that's not just a catch phrase. It's our calling in part because there are nights like this one.
Tonight, "Keeping Them Honest" reporting on a vital issue to America's wounded warriors and their families is actually getting action. The Senate Finance Committee has just launched a probe, an investigation into potential abuses by a veteran's charity, a charity we've been reporting on now for weeks.
Staffers for committee chairman, Max Baucus of Montana, who joins us shortly, says he learned about the story from reporting by correspondent Drew Griffin and producer David Fitzpatrick. Drew is with us as well tonight. And this story is still unfolding.
The charity in question is called the Disabled Veterans National Foundation, DVNF. That's their seal there. They've raised nearly $56 million in the past three years. What's outrageous is that one dime has actually gone directly to help disabled veterans. We've been showing you this now for a long time.
You may remember what happened when Drew tried to talk to the charity's president, a woman names Precilla Wilkewitz.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PRECILLA WILKEWITZ, PRESIDENT, DISABLED VETERANS NATIONAL FOUNDATION: You're the ones from CNN that we've been talking --
DREW GRIFFIN, CNN SPECIAL INVESTIGATIONS UNIT CORRESPONDENT (on camera): That's right.
(Voice-over): Meet Precilla Wilkewitz, president of the Disabled Veterans National Foundation, who we found at a small VFW office in Baton Rouge, Louisiana.
WILKEWITZ: Well, this is the Veterans of Foreign Wars and I really didn't think you'd do something like this. And we've agreed to talk to you -- answer your questions.
GRIFFIN (on camera): Nobody has agreed -- so -- and so here's the question --
WILKEWITZ: Only in writing. Thank you so much. GRIFFIN: You've raised over three years and none of the money has gone to any veterans. Ma'am?
OK, so the bottom line is you're not going to give me an interview?
(Voice-over): CNN has been trying for two years to get an interview with Disabled Veterans National Foundation since we began tracking its fundraising. We've gotten angry phone calls, angry e- mails, promises of written responses and now a slammed door.
(On camera): Veterans, ma'am?
(Voice-over): But no answers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Interesting about this, if you had raised $56 million over three years and done it legitimately and actually had something to show for it and given that money to veterans, you would think you would want to explain yourself, you would think you would want to show your books and show all the veterans you've helped.
They're not doing that. The charity DVNF does send some stuff to veterans groups, stuff that they get for free and stuff that veterans groups we talked to say they don't need, they don't want, they can't use. Here's one now infamous example, coconut M&Ms. Thousands of packages.
DVNF sent one veterans group more than 11,000 of these bags of M&Ms, 2600 bags of cough drops, 2,200 little bottles of sanitizer lotion. Because that's just apparently what they think disabled veterans need. Probably not. That's just stuff that they were given for free.
Veterans groups have also received bulk shipments of chef's aprons, military dress shoes, random donations so useless that the vets groups have had to sell the items at yard sales like that one just so they can try to raise some money for things they actually need.
So where did the $56 million that the people donated to DVNF actually go?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRIFFIN (on camera): As far as we can tell, up to the 10th floor of this Manhattan office building to a company called Quadriga Arts, a company that specializes in fundraising. As far as we can tell, Quadriga Arts knows a lot about fundraising for itself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: So this group, Quadriga Arts, is basically paid to build mailing lists for groups like DVNF. That's where the money took Drew. He learned that Quadriga Arts and its subsidiaries have more than 500 charities on their client list including DVNF and other veterans groups.
So let's just be clear here. The money trail leads from unsuspecting wallets of concerned Americans, good people like you, who donate money to the DVNF, straight to the bottom line of a fundraising company, the companies of Quadriga Arts and its subsidiaries.
But it's the charity, DVNF, that's now being investigated because of -- of its tax exempt status. Because all of us are given a tax break for the good work that it's supposed to be doing. In the words of Senator Baucus, quote, "Our veterans should never be used as pawns in a scheme to exploit the taxpayers. DVNF has a responsibility to show it's genuinely helping veterans and playing by the rules."
Senator Max Baucus joins us now.
We should point out that this is a bipartisan effort, initiated as well by Republican committee member Richard Berg of North Carolina.
Also with us tonight is Drew Griffin because there's a lot more to the story.
Senator, what is your goal with this investigation?
SEN. MAX BAUCUS (D), MONTANA: I don't want retired schoolteachers or any other good Americans to be duped by fraudulent organizations when they give any money thinking it's going to go to disabled vets when in fact it's not at all. It's going to pad the pockets of some scam artist. I want to stop this thing.
COOPER: What concerns you most about this Disabled National Veteran's Foundation?
BAUCUS : I -- it sounds like it's a front. I don't think it's legit. It takes about $56 million from ordinary good Americans who want to help veterans, but they don't give any of the money to veterans. And in this case, don't give any money to disabled veterans. It's just -- it's an outrage, frankly.
COOPER: Had you --
BAUCUS : And it's --
COOPER: Had you heard about the DVNF before?
BAUCUS : I have not, frankly. You highlighted it in one of your reports. And we got to look at it. Asked a lot of questions that organizations are not answering, not fit to (INAUDIBLE). Charitable organizations gave them an F and so we spent more time looking at them.
COOPER: A big part of this seems to be that all the money is being funneled to this organization, Quadriga Arts.
COOPER: Which basically organizations use to boost their mailing list.
COOPER: And -- does that make sense to you and will that be part of your investigation as well?
BAUCUS: Well, clearly -- or frankly, I smell a rat there. I have a hunch that the mail order is using the veterans organization as a front for themselves so they get the contributions from a good well meaning goal, Americans who think they're helping disabled vets when in fact the money is going to this other outfit, Quadriga. It's a fundraising operation and none of the money is going to disabled vets.
So we're going to be looking at all that. I have a hunch, I'm parsing (ph) that there are other fraudulent scam organizations like this as well. And we're going to do what we can to get to the bottom of it.
COOPER: And, Drew Griffin -- Drew, you actually talked to another organization which had also has a contract with Quadriga that they're to get out of. And they at least off-camera acknowledged that they were kind of trapped into this contract with this group?
GRIFFIN: Yes, they were trapped. Well, I'm saying that, they aren't saying that, they are in a long-term contract for six years which lasts until 2014. The National Veterans Foundation which took in $18 million or, excuse me, took in $22 million or $20 million and gave $18 of it back to Quadriga and its subsidiary Brickmill.
They did say they weren't happy with how this all worked out and they have severed ties with them and are now trying to break their contract.
COOPER: Senator, a big part of what Drew has uncovered seems to be kind of a shell game, the charity, DVNF, they take credit for enormous amounts of money on their tax returns, but deliver a lot of stuff to veterans groups that veterans groups -- say they don't need, that is basically useless. Surplus, dress shoes, chef's coats, hats, thousands of bags of coconut M&Ms. And they claim it all as goods in kind, so it will look good to the -- good to the IRS. Do you think the IRS needs to take a hard look at what this group actually does for veterans?
BAUCUS: There's no question, there's some kind of a shell game, some kind of a scam going on here and I don't know who's getting the money. It's certainly not disabled vets who are getting the money. And that's -- and I have a hunch there are other organizations like this. And it might -- the scam might be partly the Disabled Veteran Foundation, they're ripping people off. The scam could also be partly this other Miller outfit that's getting a lot of money that's at the receiving end of it.
So we've just got to get to the bottom of it.
COOPER: Drew, you've been struggling now for years to even get basic answers from DVNF and also this Quadriga? GRIFFIN: Yes. For two years, we get nothing but phone calls that aren't returned, you know, we got a door slammed. We even went out to Sacramento last week, as you recall, Anderson, trying to find the person who runs this DVNF. She was supposed to be at a concert and she cancelled at the last minute at a conference there.
And we want to ask the same questions that the senator is asking and that you're asking, you know, how can Americans who are so generous, be pouring so much money and giving from their hearts to our disabled veterans, right now coming back from the war, thinking the money is going to do good, it's doing no good, it's going all the way to the fundraiser.
And number one, where is the money? From the senator and from you, Anderson, as I recall, how do you sleep at night?
COOPER: Yes. I mean that's the question I'd like -- I mean, Senator, that's -- I'm sure that's -- I know that's not one of the questions you asked to the DVNF. That's probably one of the questions you would like to ask. I mean how did these people who are raising money on the backs of disabled veterans and not giving it directly to the veterans, I don't understand how they sleep at night.
BAUCUS: Well, there are a lot of unfortunate bad apples. Let's not forget. Most charitable organizations are good, they do very good work that this country probably wouldn't exist without all the charitable foundations that we have in this country. But there are a few rotten apples that take advantage of all good American citizens and this is one that frankly really ticks me off personally, because we in Montana have the highest signed up in the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, per capita.
We're patriotic, and a lot of men and women, they come home, they're disabled, they're injured, and they're wounded. It just makes me angry, frankly, that some outfit wants to take advantage of gullible people for their own personal benefit at the expense of veterans.
COOPER: And it makes it harder for reputable organizations --
COOPER: You know, it makes it harder for them to raise money. It takes money away from them.
Senator, appreciate you being on this and we'll continue to follow it. Your efforts and Drew Griffin as well.
BAUCUS: You bet.
COOPER: Thank you.
BAUCUS: Well, Anderson, thank you for your good work, because you spotlighted this. That's good work.
COOPER: Well, it's Drew Griffin really that's done it all. So I appreciate it, Senator. Thank you.
BAUCUS: You bet. You bet.
COOPER: And Drew and David Fitzpatrick, our producer.
And one final note, we talked about Drew's many unsuccessful attempts to get DVNF president, Precilla Wilkewitz to answer questions about the charity that she runs, this evening the group sent the following statement.
It read in part, quote, "The disabled Veterans National Foundation has helped tens of thousands of veterans with direct financial aid and supplied that have made a difference in their lives. The media reports about our activities have been plain wrong and we welcome the opportunity to set the record straight."
Let me just point out for the record, we have given them multiple opportunities to try to set the record straight, in their words. Again, we invite her at any point to talk to Drew, come on this show, we'll talk to them, to say that, you know, that this is misleading, and that they're going to set the record straight.
We've been waiting for two years to try to get them to set the record straight. It's ridiculous.
Let us know what you think, we're on Facebook, follow us on Twitter, @Andersoncooper. I'll be tweeting tonight.
Up next, the part of Mitt Romney's record that no one seems to be talking about with all the shouting over Bain Capital. Namely his jobs record as governor of Massachusetts. We'll look at it next.
COOPER: "Keeping Them Honest" now in the campaign trail. For weeks now, it seems like forever, we've watching the Romney and Obama campaigns battling over Mitt Romney's job creation record at Bain Capital. As you heard President Obama now says it's going to be a central part of the campaign.
Now you can agree or disagree about whether that record at Bain Capital is anything to brag about, or it's fair game to attack, or even if it belongs to the campaign at all. It shows what he's going to be like as a leader.
Mitt Romney, though, does have another record when it comes to job creation, his time as governor of Massachusetts. So instead of talking about Bain tonight, we're going to talk about that.
First, though, the news he made today on the issue, promising to put Americans back to work and setting a goal. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MITT ROMNEY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Create in four years by virtue of the policies that we put in place, we get the unemployment rate down to 6 percent or perhaps a little lower. Depends in part upon the rate of growth of the globe, as well as what we're seeing here in the United States. But we get the rate down quite substantially.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: And his critics said that he's essentially promising something right there that may happen anyhow, no matter who's in office. In the words of the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office's projection earlier this year, quote, "As economic growth picks up after 2013, the unemployment rate will gradually decline to around 7 percent by the end of 2015 before dropping to near 5.5 percent by the end of 2017."
And by the end of 2016, the CBO estimates the jobless rate will be at 6.3 percent which is very close to what Governor Romney is there promising. Now that 6 percent he mentioned today is also -- is actually lower standard that he's apparently holding the White House accountable to. When the last batch of jobless numbers came out, you may remember he said, quote, "Anything over 4 percent is not cause for celebration."
Whatever his figure, though, he mentions jobs and his knowledge about how to create jobs whenever and wherever he can.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROMNEY: I know how to create job. Not just watch jobs being created but actually creating jobs. I will first make America the most attractive place in the world for job growth, for investment, for small business, for big business.
I understand what it takes for businesses to thrive and create jobs. Create real jobs, create jobs, create jobs, create jobs. It's time for someone who knows how to create jobs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: So "Keeping Him Honest," how did he do actually when he was chief executive of a big state, Massachusetts. The campaign says, quote, "As governor, he confronted an economy very similar to Obama's economy." They went on to say, "Under his leader and economic reforms, the Massachusetts unemployment went from 5.6 percent to 4.7 percent, and the state had a positive record of nearly 50,000 new jobs created."
Now that is absolutely true. However Northeastern University economist Andrew (INAUDIBLE) tells the "Washington Post," the jobless rate fell because so many people left the workforce and in fairness the same thing is happening to President Obama now, yet Governor Romney is blaming the president for that and taking credit for the same thing when he was governor of Massachusetts.
Governor Romney inherited hard economic times in Massachusetts when he started office. But there were hard economic times nationwide and while there was some recovery during his time in office, as he rightly points out, there was recovery nationwide. And when compared to the rest of the country, in fact, the job market in Massachusetts was slower to recover than all but three other states, 47th nationally in job creation.
One of those other states, as James Carville pointed out last night, was Louisiana, hit by Hurricane Katrina.
That was Governor Mitt Romney faced a Democratic controlled legislature and could not enact all the programs he wanted, that's also true. That's one of the things he points out. The fact remains, when he took office, the state ranked 37th in job creation, went from number 37 to 47.
I'm joined now by chief political analyst Gloria Borger and chief political correspondent Candy Crowley, host of "STATE OF THE UNION."
So, Gloria, does it surprise you at this point that the Obama campaign is focusing more on Bain Capital than they are about Romney's Massachusetts job creation record? Or do you think it's just a matter of time?
GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, I think it's a matter of time. I think they're going to get to Massachusetts. We're starting to hear a little bit of it now. They're going to talk about those job creation numbers. But I think the reason they decided to do Bain Capital first is that this is the moment when you're trying to define your opponent. They've looked at the polls, they see that Mitt Romney does best when it comes to the question of who's better able to manage the economy.
So they kind of want to disqualify his business experience argument. And also Bain Capital for them, or so they think, allows them to make a values argument against Mitt Romney, to say, you know what? This man doesn't have the values to be president because he's really not a job creator, like he's telling you, actually he is a job killer.
And so they'll move on from this to the Massachusetts story, you can be sure that will be coming up next.
COOPER: But, Candy, all of Mitt Romney's Republican challengers during the primaries, they used the Massachusetts argument, tried to use it against Mitt Romney, didn't apparently seem to work with voters.
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Right. And this is why the struggle for who gets to define you takes so long. We don't know yet how the general public, that was a Republican group, and in fact got quite upset with some of Romney's opponents for going after Bain and talking -- you know, the vulture language, I mean, all -- you know, that he was a corporate raider, et cetera, et cetera, did not sit well with that particular group.
We don't know yet how it will sit in particular with the 6, 7, 8, 9 percent of swing voters that will end up probably deciding this race. I think it matters where they live. I think it matters, you know, in what areas they think this economy is weak.
And it also matters, Anderson, not just what Mitt Romney has done or what Barack Obama has done. But who they think actually might be able to take the country into the future. So they're not just selling their past records, they're selling kind of that, you know, to bring it back up again, they're selling hope. And whoever can do that best and say I'm your guy is who's going to end up winning.
COOPER: But, Gloria, clearly the Obama campaign wants to make this election not a referendum on President Obama's record of economic -- his economic record, but a referendum on a choice between these two candidates.
BORGER: Right. They definitely want to make it a choice and that's why they're talking about Bain Capital and the president the other day saying, look, Mitt Romney may have some business experience, but it's not the kind of experience you would need as president.
But in the end, Anderson, when you have an incumbent president, he's got a record that he's got to define. And if the American public doesn't think you've done a good job, they're not going to rehire you. That's why what worries the Obama campaign right now are some of these economic numbers which show there was one today in the "Wall Street Journal"/NBC poll which said that over 60 percent of the American public doesn't believe their children's lives are going to be better than their lives. That's a very difficult number if you're sitting there in Chicago running the Obama.
COOPER: It is difficult, Candy, to overcome. The flipside is if there is an upward trend heading into the fall, then Romney has to come up with some other viable plan B.
CROWLEY: Well, I think he has his plan B out there, which is, listen, we're all happy that the economy is getting better. Because in fact they have already had to deal with this because there are signs that the economy is better, it's clearly better than when President Obama took office.
The question is, they will posit it from Camp Romney is, look how much money we spent to get it to this point. He's going about this the wrong way, he drove us into debt to, you know, the tune of almost $1 trillion with the stimulus plan and other things that he's doing and he's still headed in the wrong direction.
So it's -- the plan B is already kind of out there right now. It's been about how good is the economy. But it's also going to be how much did it cost to get us here --
CROWLEY: -- which everybody agrees is not far enough.
COOPER: We got to leave --
BORGER: And it's also going to be -- Mitt Romney is going to say, you know what, if I had been president, we would have gotten there faster.
COOPER: Faster. Right.
Gloria and Candy Crowley, thanks very much.
Coming up, the outrage over a doctor in Pakistan who helped the CIA, helped America track down Osama bin Laden, allegedly, getting a 33-year sentence in Pakistan for treason. Details ahead.
COOPER: Hundred and 22 girls, three teachers poisoned at school. We'll tell you where the attack took place. When we continue.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Tonight's "360 World View," a doctor in Pakistan has been sentenced to 33 years in prison for treason for helping the United States track down Osama bin Laden. You heard that right.
This man, the man who attempted to help catch a mass murderer has been sentenced to prison for 33 years for trying to help. Dr. Shakil Afridi is his name. He's a doctor. He was sentenced by a tribal court after a two-month trial. The tribal justice system did not allow him to actually defend himself.
Afridi helped the CIA use a vaccination campaign to try to verify bin Laden's presence in the Abbottabad compound where he was killed in a U.S. raid in May of 2011. That actually didn't work. A statement from U.S. senators including John McCain calls the sentence shocking, outrageous.
I want to talk about it now with CNN national contributor, Fran Townsend, a member of the External Advisory Board for the CIA and the Department of Homeland Security.
It's incredible that they -- that this would happen. How do you explain that?
FRAN TOWNSEND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I mean, first, you know, there's lots we don't know, Anderson, because it remains heavily classified. We don't know whether or not the CIA had planned to ex-filtrate him and was unsuccessful or whether he didn't want to go. Because oftentimes with extended families, an asset doesn't want to leave.
TOWNSEND: And so we don't really know why he remained after the raid.
Look, this tribal court is not anything anybody -- any American would associate with due process. Right? As you said, he couldn't defend himself. It was very limited in terms of the process that was wrapped around this. What hasn't happened yet is there's an ongoing federal investigation in Pakistan where they're also looking at treason charges, the federal case, if -- when that comes with conclusion, if he's charged with treason, he could face the death penalty.
COOPER: So is it possible that the federal court could overturn the tribal court in Pakistan?
TOWNSEND: Well, our understanding from Pakistani legal experts is that Afridi, Dr. Afridi could appeal into this federal system and, depending on who you talk to, it sounds as though he'd probably have a pretty good chance of getting it overturned. But you know this is -- there's high stakes diplomacy going on.
TOWNSEND: We know that Senator Clinton intervened in his behalf. There's been other senior level visits. Chairman of the Joint Chiefs Marty Dempsey, Secretary Panetta, David Petraeus from the CIA.
COOPER: So is this the kind of thing that, you know, in a back room somewhere, a deal could be made?
TOWNSEND: Sure. I mean we've seen instances where that --
COOPER: Right. There was an American right.
TOWNSEND: Exactly. The CIA contractor who was held for an extended period of time and ultimately he got out because there was money paid to the family of the victim, and so, yes, there are -- what's most important is, both sides have to be careful about how strident their public statements are. Because of course there are these backroom negotiations going on.
TOWNSEND: They have to give themselves --
COOPER: So the more they yell about it in public in the U.S. side, then the harder it seems for a negotiation or a deal becomes.
TOWNSEND: That's right. Because in the end both sides are going to have to claim that they got something. They won't --
COOPER: But relations between Pakistan and the U.S., I mean, are at a really, really bad point.
TOWNSEND: That's exactly right. And so likely, what the Pakistanis are looking for out of the Afridi negotiation is some leverage, right? What they want is some commitment from the United States that in terms of going on a go-forward basis, that the U.S. won't use Pakistani citizens on Pakistani soil without working those assets jointly.
COOPER: Right. Interesting. Fran, appreciate it. Thanks very much.
There's a lot more we're following tonight. Isha is here with the "360 News and Business" Bulletin" -- Isha.
ISHA SESAY, CNN ANCHOR: Anderson, Secret Service Director Mark Sullivan apologized on Capitol Hill for the prostitution scandal embarrassing his agency. In the grilling by a Senate panel, Sullivan said the agents involved in the incident at a Colombia hotel were, quote, "reckless." He insisted it was a one-time event, but lawmakers were skeptical.
More than 120 girls and three teachers were poisoned at an Afghan school with some sort of spray. Forty of the girls are still hospitalized. The Taliban is being blamed for this latest attack targeting girls at schools. Testing is underway to determine what poison was used.
Check your refrigerator. Market sized baby spinach, the 10-ounce clamshell bag and Private Selections organic baby spinach, the five- ounce bag, are being recalled because of possible salmonella contamination. Both have a best by date of May 25th.
And Anderson, a dangerous, uninvited guest was caught on camera at a Kansas wedding.
SESAY: If you look behind the happy couple -- yes, that is indeed a tornado. One of two twisters in the area during their wedding ceremony.
COOPER: Wow. That's crazy.
SESAY: And Anderson? Not only is it crazy the bride is saying that she couldn't have asked some better pictures.
COOPER: Yes, they're pretty intense, yes, they're pretty cool pictures. Isha, thanks.
Charles Worely, the North Carolina pastor who laid out a detailed plan from his pulpit to eliminate all gays and lesbians by locking them behind electric fences is not backing down, he's not talking to us, but other in his community are, other supporters of his. You'll hear from them ahead.
COOPER: The North Carolina pastor's detailed plan to eliminate gays and lesbians sparked an uproar far beyond his pulpit. His supporters, however, are digging in. You'll hear from one of them just ahead.
COOPER: Welcome back. We're digging deeper tonight on the North Carolina pastor who preached about a plan to eliminate all gays and lesbians by using electrified fences.
The pastor's name is Charles Worley. He preaches at Providence Road Baptist Church not far from Charlotte, North Carolina.
Now a couple of weeks ago, on Mother's Day, he lashed out at President Obama's support for same-sex marriage and laid out his plan for eliminating gays and lesbians.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLES WORLEY, PASTOR, PROVIDENCE ROAD BAPTIST CHURCH: I figure a way to get rid of all the lesbians and queers, but I couldn't get it past the Congress. Build a great big large fence, 50 or 100 miles long, put all the lesbians in there, fly over and drop some food.
Do the same thing with the queers and the homosexuals and have that fence electrified so they can't get out. Feed them and -- and you know what? In a few years they'll die out. You know why? They can't reproduce.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Now in case you're thinking maybe his words were taken out of context, in that very same sermon, Pastor Worley doubled down basically saying he knew what he was saying was controversial. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WORLEY: I tell you right now, somebody said who are you going to vote for? I'm not going to vote for a baby killer and a homosexual lover? Did you mean to say that? You better believe I did. God have mercy, it makes me puking sick.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, his church apparently saw nothing wrong or surprising about the sermon because they posted this entire 90-minute long video on its web site.
A group called the "Katava Valley Citizens Against Hate" is organizing a protest this coming weekend. On their Facebook page, they say they're now expecting so many people they're moving the protest to a bigger location.
Despite all this, Pastor Worley is not backing off his message. This past Sunday, he preached again about gays and lesbians, his tone and language seemed more restrained, but his message was clear.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WORLEY: All of the lesbians and all the -- what's that other word? Gays? I didn't want to say queers. To say that we don't love you, I love you more than you love yourself. I'm praying for you to be saved and you can't go to heaven unless you're washed in the blood and God saves us from our sins, not in our sins.
(END VIDEO CLIP) COOPER: We sent Gary Tuchman in North Carolina to try to talk to Pastor Worley in person, for two days now he's tried to track him down through e-mails, phone calls, shown up in his church, none of that has worked. He has talked to other people in the community. Gary joins me now. Gary, what are you hearing?
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we know where Pastor Worley is, Anderson, he's right in the sanctuary behind me, because for the second night in a row, there's a special prayer service going on inside this church. There are hundreds of people in this church right now. These are people that support their pastor and what he said on Mother's Day. We can tell you normally when we cover stories, we're allowed in any church.
We have been told by the sheriff's office here that if we step foot on this property, we'll be subject to arrest and that's because the church told the county sheriff's office to say that so we have not been able to talk to this pastor.
We can tell you we spent part of this day talking to a woman who's been to up to 20 of these services over the years and heard this pastor's sermon at least 20 times over the years. She is not one of the people inside this building. We'll tell you why.
We'll call her Jane. We're protecting her identity. There are two reasons she's not here. One, she's not a member. She goes because a close relative is a member. But the number two reason is more important reason.
She is a lesbian who lives here and she's very outraged about these comments. However, she has a very complex feeling about this pastor. Now we're protecting her identity because although she's open about being a lesbian, she has two small children and her children friends' parents not all of them know she's a lesbian.
TUCHMAN: When you heard these comments that he made on Mother's Day, Pastor Worley, how did you feel?
"JANE", HAS ATTENDED WORLEY'S CHURCH: I was saddened, I was disappointed.
TUCHMAN: Were you surprised?
JANE: I was not surprised.
TUCHMAN: And tell me why you weren't surprised?
JANE: I've been aware of his opinions and beliefs about homosexuality.
TUCHMAN: Have you heard him utter similar comments over the years when you have attended the church?
JANE: I have heard comments along those same lines in the past.
TUCHMAN: If you had a chance to talk to him, and perhaps you will soon, because it's a small town, would you say something to him about this?
JANE: I would say hello. I would extend my hand. And I would say you've been going through a tough time, this was a very difficult situation for our community, and I pray for you, for hope, healing, peace, tolerance.
COOPER: Gary, there's a word of protest here this weekend, what are you hearing about that?
TUCHMAN: Yes, what we're being told by the civil rights group is they expect up to 2,000 people to turn out in this county. As you mentioned before, they are going to have to move the location. They wanted to do it here, but it's too small of an area.
They expect to do it by the county courthouse that they expected to be a very large protest. I should also tell you, Anderson, like I said, we have been trying to talk to this pastor, we haven't been able to.
We talked to one woman who left the service. All she would tell us is that this pastor is shocked at the national reaction to what's happened.
COOPER: Gary, appreciate the reporting. Thank you.
Pastor Worley obviously has strong support within the community. There are some 1,200 seats in his church. Gary said there is a service going on right now.
Stacey Pritchard is one of the church members, she joins us tonight. Stacey, I know you're a defender of Pastor Worley and I appreciate you coming on the program.
Do you agree with his statements that he said on the pulpit that gays and lesbians should be put behind electrified fences until they die out?
STACEY PRITCHARD, MEMBER OF PROVIDENCE ROAD BAPTIST CHURCH: I believe that that was taken -- I mean yes, he said that, but of course, he would never want that to be done.
Of course, people are going to take it and make it their own way and make it into what they want to. But I agree with what the sermon was and what it was about.
COOPER: But you're saying he doesn't want it done, but he said he wanted it done on the -- he said it from the pulpit. Why do you interpret that's not what he wants?
PRITCHARD: OK, let me try to say it a different way, maybe -- maybe that's what he felt like should be done. I mean, it can be said either way, OK, just to make the short of it, yes, I agree with him. If they can't get the message that that's wrong, then they can't reproduce and eventually they would die.
COOPER: So you believe only that gay people are only born of other gay people? You're saying they can't reproduce, so therefore they would all die off. Aren't gay people born -- gay people get born to straight parents all the time, no?
PRITCHARD: No, that's not what I meant. If men and men were in the same fence and women were in the same fence, they can't reproduce together. That's what I mean.
COOPER: Right, but that wouldn't eliminate all gay people. There would be more gay people born outside the fence to straight people, wouldn't there?
PRITCHARD: Exactly, but we were meaning the ones in there. See, it's all taken out of context and twisted. The main point is always the same.
COOPER: So what is it about gay people that are worse than adulterers who Leviticus points out and people who have cursed their mothers and fathers who should be put to death and promiscuous girl who can be put into death -- what makes gay people worse than those people?
PRITCHARD: From the bible, there's no difference. But that is what he was talking about.
COOPER: So you believe people who -- you believe adulterers should be put to death because that's in the bible?
PRITCHARD: Like you said, like it was said, you know, not really, whatever happened, but yes, OK, I'm not going to keep answering the same question over and over, yes.
COOPER: So does it seem Christian to you, though, to talk about putting people behind electrified fences and watching them die?
Because I have talked to a number of pastors in the last couple of days, who say, that just doesn't sound Christian, that doesn't sound like the message of love that they hear in the bible.
PRITCHARD: People are once again harping, harping, harping, on the electric fence, this and that. It's about homosexuals, and it's wrong. That's what it's about.
COOPER: But you would understand why some people would feel this is wrong to say, I mean you say people are harping on it. Do you understand why people might be concerned? If some people were talking about putting Jews behind electrified fences, I imagine that would be of concern to you?
PRITCHARD: Well, you know, here we go again, nobody's going to put them behind an electric fence. COOPER: Well, actually that has happened, it's called the holocaust. You said nobody's going to kill homosexuals, it's happening right now in Iraq. It's happening right now in Iran.
PRITCHARD: Yes, and this is 2012.
COOPER: Right, it's happening right now 2012 in Iraq and Iran.
PRITCHARD: And you know what? This is a pastor that speaks the word of God. Anybody can take it any way they want to, and if they don't like it, they don't have to. They can turn around and go on.
COOPER: Stacey Pritchard, I appreciate you being on the program. I know it's difficult topic so thank you.
PRITCHARD: Sure, yes. Thank you so much.
COOPER: That's one of the supporters of Pastor Worley in that town in North Carolina.
More news tonight, a new development in the death of a Florida A&M University drum major who died after enduring the school hazing ritual. A fellow student is saying he asked to be hazed. Details ahead.
COOPER: Tonight AC 360 follow, a hazing case that lead to the suspension of the Florida A&M marching band and the arrest of 13 people. Now 11 are charged with third-degree felony hazing in the death of drum major Robert Champion last November.
He was beaten to death aboard a bus after a football game. According to court documents released just today some of the band members charged in his death told police that Champion chose to go through the hazing ritual that ended up killing him.
CNN's George Howell joins me now. We have learned a lot of stuff that we didn't know before in these documents.
GEORGE HOWELL, CNN CORRECSPONDENT: You know, basically we are getting a better sense of the politics of hazing. We're hearing from these witnesses, some of the suspects, the statements that they gave these investigators.
And they described hazing as a rite of passage or a ritual something band members wanted to go through. They also say and we heard this from two people and a former drum major that Robert Champion wanted to go through with hazing.
Now, Anderson, you know, you got to be of Pam Champion. She said that her son did not want to go through hazing. This flies in the face of that, in fact, along with the hundreds, the thousands of documents that were released.
There were some audio recordings and you could hear one of these drum majors talking about the fact that he says Robert wanted to go through it. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED DETECTIVE: Did you talk to Robert before this went on? You said it was against what he believed. Did you guys have a conversation about the facts of what you were doing?
HOLLIS: Yes, we was talking about it. He really, he really didn't want to do it, but he was kind of like I'm just going to do it. You know I told him, I said, if you don't want to do it, don't do it, like you know. It's like man, you don't got to do it. Like, you don't have to do it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: So doing it was a way of kind of gain respect in the squad?
HOWELL: Getting credibility within -- and you know, Pam Champion held a news conference in Atlanta described this as shocking and described it as character assassination against her son saying these band members are doing whatever they can to protect themselves and pass the buck.
COOPER: There are also more details about exactly what happened on that bus.
HOWELL: These witnesses, the suspects they paint this picture on the bus on November 19. So the bus was dark, and this apparently happened toward the back of the bus. Some witnesses say there were adults, supervisors on the bus in front.
But again this happened toward the back. They described these two hazing rituals, first is the hot seat, where a person sits in a seat and the band members put a blanket over the person and beat and punch repeatedly.
And the other is crossing bus C. And they describe this as Robert Champion trying to get to the back of the bus, but other band members pulling him back trying to stop him from getting there all the while attacking him.
COOPER: George, appreciate the reporting. Thank you very much. Isha is back with the "360 Bulletin" -- Isha.
SESAY: Anderson, a historic day in Egypt. Polls are now closed and the country's presidential election more than a year after the uprising that brought down Hosni Mubarak. With 13 candidates on the ballot, results aren't expected until the weekend. If no candidate wins a majority, a second round of voting is set for Mid-June.
And a programming note, be sure to tune in this Friday night at 8:00 and 10:00 Eastern for our special report, "Arab Spring Revolution Interrupted." Our focus will be on Egypt, Syria and other countries in the headlines. Former Secretary of State Colin Powell said today that he supports same-sex marriage. On "THE SITUATION ROOM" with Wolf Blitzer, Powell said legal same sex marriage seems to be the way we should be moving in this country and he has no problem with it.
Three investors have filed a class action lawsuit over last week's Facebook IPO. The lawsuits claims performance estimates for the company were not shared with all investors. Facebook says the lawsuit has no merit.
And the Library of Congress has added 25 songs to the National Recording Registry, some you might recognize, "A Charlie Brown Christmas." Donna Summer, "I Feel Love". Sugar Hill Gang's "Rapper's Delight" and Prince and the Revolution, "Purple Rain."
Now Anderson, to be clear, to be added to the registry, the songs have to be at least 10 years and being quote, "culturally, historically or aesthetically significant.
COOPER: OK, it seemed like all good choices then.
SESAY: And you have them on your playlist?
COOPER: Not currently no.
SESAY: So what's on your playlist?
COOPER: I run to Rihanna a lot right now.
SESAY: That is very surprising. You never fail to surprise me.
COOPER: I like to run to like pop stuff.
SESAY: I'm just saying it's kind of cool.
COOPER: I don't think it's cool. I don't think I do is cool.
SESAY: You don't think Rihanna is cool?
COOPER: I like Rihanna a lot clearly.
SESAY: She's cool, not you, that was the point I was making.
COOPER: Thank you, I appreciate that. Wow, that hurt. Words hurt, Isha.
SESAY: I'm here to make you call.
COOPER: Thank you, yes, I will draft in your shadow. Tonight, one cool dad who knows how to keep his kids entertained in the car. Listen.
He says it's become a habit to sing Bohemian Rhapsody on the way to school in the morning. They've been doing it for a while. The kids know all the words. They can usually start the song as they pull out of the driveway and pull into the school, just as it ends. SESAY: That is pretty impressive. Even I don't know all the words.
COOPER: Coming up, if you thought it was sort of an odd when Prince Charles did the weather report? That was only the beginning, the royal high jinx continue. "The Ridiculist" is next.
COOPER: Time for "The Ridiculist." Tonight, we're adding the artist formerly known as Prince Charles. I'm not talking about the new Prince Charles. I mean, the old Prince Charles. The one who seems perhaps a bit staid, maybe a bit on the reserve side, a little introverted.
You know the Prince Charles back in the old days, the old days about two weeks ago. If you heard about him at all back then it would be because he was watching a polo match or painting a water color.
But what a difference a fortnight makes. We have been swept into a veritable male strum of the mad cap antics of Prince Charles version 2.0.
Your eyes did not deceive you, that was Prince Charles getting a deejay lesson in Toronto. The fresh prince is the easy headline of course. But if you'll remember the fresh prince was the rapper, so I'm going to go with two turn tables and a monotone.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One, two, three. And then if you want something on this side, now to that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: But there seems to be something of a movement afoot to change Prince Charles's image, make him more approachable or something.
Because really what's more approachable than a 63-year-old British guy deejaying in a suit. There's nothing more approachable than that, except maybe for that same guy talking about the weather.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have a weather that's pushing northward that's bringing clouds and rain. The potential for a few flurries over Balmoral-- who the hell wrote this script? As the afternoon wears on, but there's cold air at just 8 Celsius and a brisk north easterly wind. Thank God it isn't a bank holiday.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Smashing, yes, the new Prince Charles does it all. He lays down the fat beats. I will never use that phrase again, I promise. It didn't sound right at all, I apologize. The point is, out with the old, in with the new Prince Charles version 2.0 reign supreme on "The Ridiculist."
That does it for us. Thanks for watching. We'll see you again one hour from now another edition of 360. "PIERS MORGAN" starts right now.