Return to Transcripts main page


Who Will be the Next Pope?; Supersized Soda Ban Fizzles

Aired March 11, 2013 - 20:00   ET


ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Erin, thanks very much.

Good evening, everyone. It is just 1:00 a.m. here in Rome and there is a lot happening in this city, back home and around the world at this hour.

Tomorrow, the leader of the Roman Catholic Church, the beginning of his selection, will begin. Or I should say, a few hours from now. There is also a huge development affecting the lives of millions of Americans at this hour. Court today blocking New York City's ban on super-sized sugary soft drinks. The question tonight, is it a victory for freedom or a blow against your family's health?

Also tonight, the blade runner going nowhere fast. Is he also deteriorating mentally? Though his family denies it, there is surprising new word on how Oscar Pistorius may be handling the wait for his murder trial.

All that is ahead in this hour but we begin right here in Rome with an election like none other in this world. How often do you say that about anything? Beyond just that, this election, this papal conclave has not happened under these circumstances in 598 years. Taking place not after the death of a Pope, but after his departure.

Catholics have come from every corner of the globe to drink in the moment, to feel the buzz and ultimately witness the outcome. What they cannot do, what really no one can, including 5600 TV, radio and print reporters, is see the process in action. Only a very few inside the Vatican will be privy to any of it and only 115 men, 115 cardinal electors, will take part.

Shrouded in total secrecy, they'll begin the process of choosing one single individual to become the voice of all that is holy to 1.2 billion people around the world. Choosing one person to lead 1.2 billion people would be an awesome responsibility for any 115 men.

For these men, for this election, at this historic moment, the responsibility is quite literally sacred.


COOPER (voice-over): It's already Tuesday in Vatican City, where later today, 115 cardinals from around the world will enter the Sistine Chapel charged with electing the next Pope. After the first vote Tuesday afternoon, all eyes in St. Peter's will be focused on this newly installed chimney. A puff of white smoke signaling a new Pope has been chosen.

But what will guide the cardinals in their decision?

(On camera): Eight years ago, after the death of Pope John Paul II, then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger was the clear frontrunner to become the next Pope. This time around, however, there is not one clear frontrunner. There are deep divisions among the 115 cardinals who'll be voting here starting tomorrow, divisions between reformers and those who favor the status quo.

(Voice-over): Some Vatican watchers see it as a showdown between the Romans, cardinals who already work inside the Vatican, and the reformers, cardinals, many from other countries, who want the next Pope to more aggressively take on issues like sex abuse by priests and alleged corruption.

The Romans appear to be coalescing not around an Italian cardinal but around Cardinal Odilo Pedro Scherer of Brazil. The reformers are actually set to be backing an Italian, Cardinal Angelo Scola of Milan. While openly campaigning for Pope is frowned upon, both men made closely watched appearances at churches in Rome on Sunday.

Another contender, an American, Cardinal Timothy Dolan of New York, also greeted well-wishers at the local church he's affiliated with here in Rome. The U.S. is the second biggest voting bloc of cardinals behind the Italians. The next Pope could also be a cardinal from Ghana, Peter Turkson. He works in the Vatican but comes from a continent that has seen an explosion in Catholicism over the last few decades.

Complete discretion surrounds the entire voting process. Beyond the cardinals, an oath of secrecy was taken Monday by other priests on hand to aid in the vote. The Swiss Guard, the Vatican Police, even the cooks and cleaning staff.

And once the Pope is elected, he'll go here to the Room of Tears. The Vatican released rare footage of this chamber where the pontiff dons his papal robe for the first time. Because no one can predict who will be chosen, three robe sizes have been prepared to ensure that when the next Pope addresses his flock for the first time, he has something appropriate to wear.


COOPER: And it all begins just a few hours from now with a morning mass. Joining us now are two CNN contributors who we will no doubt be leaning on a lot in the coming days.

Senior Vatican analyst John Allen, he's also senior correspondent from the National Catholic Reporter. Also author, commentator and Roman Catholic priest, Father Edward Beck.

Appreciate both of you being with us. Much is being made about the divisions between -- among these 115 cardinals. Explain, if you can, the camps if there are. JOHN ALLEN, CNN SENIOR VATICAN ANALYST: Well, listen, whenever you've got a group of 115 guys who have reached the pinnacle of their profession and they all -- they all have strong ideas about which way the church ought to go, divisions are inevitable. Now, you know, historically we've handicapped these divisions in terms of geography, Europeans versus new worlders, for example, or ideology, moderates versus conservatives. But I think the more relevant division in this conclave is at the level of business management, which is the central complaint that many cardinals have.

There's a perception that Benedict was a great teacher, but a subpar business manager. So what you've got is an old guard that is very attached to traditional ways of doing business in the Vatican --

COOPER: Would that be -- I mean, a lot of people say it's Romans versus reformers. That would be the Romans you're talking about.

ALLEN: Yes, although not all these guys are necessarily --

COOPER: Are actually Romans.

ALLEN: Actual Romans.

COOPER: Right.

ALLEN: These are guys who have been in Rome a long time and --


COOPER: Worked -- that can work inside.

ALLEN: Work in the Vatican. Exactly. And then you've got cardinals from all over the rest of the world who quite frankly are tired of picking up the pieces when bombs go off here, who want to see a serious reform of this place. And I think that's the fault line that is going to drive the train in this election.

COOPER: The irony, though, and sort of counterintuitive, is it's said that a lot of the Romans, or those who've worked inside the Vatican, are actually looking more toward a cardinal from Brazil, whereas many of the so-called reformers are looking to a cardinal from Milan.

ALLEN: Well, look, here's the math. OK? The math is that the Vatican cardinals in this conclave are 38 out of 115. They cannot win this election alone. So they need to knit together a coalition. One way of doing that is to appeal to the instinct many cardinals feel that it would be good to elect a Pope from outside the West, which is where two-thirds of the 1.2 billion Catholics in the world today live.

So this idea of finding somebody who would be acceptable to the old guard but also put a face on that Catholic footprint outside the West could be a winning combination.

COOPER: Father Beck, it seems like the roles this next Pope will be required to play are many. I mean, I suppose that's the same for any Pope. But it's not just being a good manager at the Vatican or being a good emissary to the faith, an evangelizer or -- there are many different hats this Pope is expected to wear.

REV. EDWARD BECK, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Most definitely. And let's go back to what you were saying about reformer. What I'm hearing from my (INAUDIBLE) is they want a clean slate. They want somebody who's going to clean house. And traditionally, reformers in the church have been members of religious communities who've some way critiqued the institutional church.

They say when in Rome -- I have been reading the papers here and talking to Romans. They are talking about Cardinal Sean O'Malley from Boston. Now seen as a reformer because he's cleaned up Boston after Cardinal Law but interestingly he walks around in his Franciscan habit. John has said Franciscans are rock stars here in Rome because of their simplicity. And if he ever stepped out on that balcony in that religious habit which I think he possibly would do if ever elected, it would be seen as something totally new in the Catholic Church.

I think it would give a lot of people who are talking to me anyway hope that something is really changing.

COOPER: But do any one -- folks who have worked in the Vatican, cardinal who've worked in the Vatican, I mean, they don't say that they are not reformers, do they?

ALLEN: Well, I mean, listen, everybody says they're for reform.

COOPER: Right.

ALLEN: The question is, how do you define it. And I think many of the cardinals who are coming into this election from other parts of the world who are kind of in an anti-establishment mood, to be honest with you, what they mean by reform are sort of three things. One, they want the Vatican to be more transparent both internally and externally.

Second, they want people to be held accountable. I mean there has been a serial problem for the last eight years of people quite honestly dropping the ball just in terms of good governance and never being held accountable for it.

And the third, they want this place to be efficient. You know, I mean, the old saying in Rome about the Vatican is talk to me on Tuesday and I'll get back to you in 300 years.


You know, that may have worked in the past but I think there are a lot of people who are frustrated at how -- at how slowly the wheels grind here.

COOPER: There is also a saying, I've heard an employee mangling it, but certainly enter the conclave a Pope, leave a cardinal.

BECK: Well, you hear that all the time but really historically it has not been true. I mean, Joseph Ratzinger went into --

COOPER: He was the leading -- yes.

BECK: -- the conclave, leading, Pope Paul VI as well went in and people were talking about him. So I don't know exactly why that phrase1 continues to have some voracity because it doesn't seem historically to be true.

ALLEN: Well, it's cute and it gets all of us off the hook for these wild predictions we make when they turn out not to be true. But he's absolutely right. If you look at the conclaves of the 20th century, half the times the guy who was identified as the front-runner actually got elected. The problem, Anderson, this time, there is no front-runner.

COOPER: And that's what makes it so interesting this time, I think.

BECK: Well, I think it says more to if you enter Pope, if you talk about yourself as Pope, if you seem to be politicizing it or politicking yourself, it's seen as a negative.

COOPER: Right.

BECK: So if you do that it's like the kiss of death as far as they're concerned.

COOPER: And yet it's interesting, you see Cardinal Dolan literally kissing babies.

BECK: Yes.

COOPER: And, you know, getting a huge amount of attention. Is that viewed negatively?

BECK: I don't think so for him because it seemed like this big personality that even before there was talk of him as Pope, that's just who the guy is. And he doesn't restrain it.

I was at the church yesterday for his mass and I know some of those Italians from that church had never seen anything like it before. Even though it's his titular church, they were amazed at his (speaking in foreign language).

ALLEN: Although we should say there are some cardinals I have been talking to this week who really admire Dolan as an evangelizer and a pitchman but think it might just be a little bit too much for Pope. One of them told me that if Dolan got elected Pope, the other 5,000 bishops of the Catholic Church might as well take the next 15 years off because you will never see or hear from them again.

COOPER: So what is the role of an ex-Pope? Because it is -- it's many hats.

ALLEN: Well, I mean, look, frankly, I think being Pope is an impossible job. I mean think about what we want Popes to be. We want them to be intellectual giants. We want them to be political heavyweights. We want them to be Fortune 500 CEOs. We want them to be living saints and we want them to be media rock stars. I mean, any one of those things is hard to do on a good day. I mean, you roll them all up together, it is impossible.

And so, you know, nobody can do all that, and so inevitably what these 115 cardinals are doing are looking around at one another and saying, OK, who among us comes closest to meeting that job description.

COOPER: And it was a day and a half or two days for Ratzinger to become the Pope. You think it could go longer this time because there is no clear frontrunner?

ALLEN: I think it's twice as complicated so I'm saying twice as long.

COOPER: All right. I'm not going to hold you to that, though.


All right, John Allen, Fr. Beck, thank you very much.

Let us know what you think. Follow me on Twitter @Andersoncooper. That's the Twitter. I'll be tweeting tonight as well.

We can't show you the actual conclave, of course. But next, you're getting a remarkable computer-assisted look through the eyes of these cardinals as they choose a new Pope. Exactly what goes on in that room. We'll give you a virtual tour of the Sistine Chapel. Our papal coverage continues throughout the hour.

Later, he's out on bail awaiting trial for killing his girlfriend. Is the so-called blade runner, Oscar Pistorius, also going downhill mentally? There's new reports on that and his push for permission to travel overseas. All ahead tonight on 360.


COOPER: Hey, welcome back. We're coming to you live from Rome where it is already Tuesday morning, very early Tuesday morning. We're obviously in front of St. Peter's and just a few blocks from the Sistine Chapel, where later today, as you've been hearing, the men who will elect the next Pope won't even be able to get a cell phone signal out. A hundred and fifteen cardinal electors will be so far off the grid, they'll be sending out smoke signals instead of instant messages.

But for all the talk about the shroud of secrecy and the penalties for piercing it, we do know a bit about the way papal conclaves have gone in the past. We know a lot about what it looks and feels and sounds like inside the Sistine Chapel.

Tom Foreman takes us inside tonight for a remarkable computer simulation. TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: As you know, Anderson, the Sistine Chapel is one of the most visited and open places in all of Europe on any given day, thousands of tourists streaming through here especially to see the extraordinary fresco painted by Michelangelo in the 1500s depicting the creation of man.

But now this has been transformed into one of the most private and secretive places in all of Europe because this is where the cardinals will select the new Pope.

So how do they do that? First with a vow of secrecy. Each of the cardinals must swear that he will not allow the secrets of this room to get outside. There are no BlackBerrys, no cell phone, no radios, no communication of any sort with anyone beyond this room, under pain of excommunication because this is a very solemn and sacred ceremony to the people of this church.

The windows have been painted out overhead so no one can spy in. They swept the room for electronic bugs so no one can listen in. But once they've dispensed with all that they can get on to the voting. There is likely going to be one vote the first day, then two votes each morning and two votes each afternoon from there on out.

How's the voting done? Pieces of paper are handed out to each of the cardinals. Upon these pieces of paper, each cardinal will write the name of the person he thinks should be the next Pope. Once he's done, he will fold it twice like this and hold it overhead. Then he will walk up the center aisle to the altar, where he will kneel briefly in prayer, then he will extend his ballot out and drop it into a special receptacle right up front.

A group of cardinals will then count all the ballots to make sure the number of ballots matches the number of people in the room. Then they will read all the names aloud so everyone can hear the voting, and as each ballot is named and read, they will thread it with a needle and thread to create one collection of all the names.

If you get 77 names or more, that's more than two-thirds of the 115 cardinals in this room. That would be a winning vote and we would know who the next Pope is going to be. If not, then they know they have to vote again. Either way, they move on to the next step, and that is the burning of the ballots.

Whether or not they select a Pope, twice a day the ballots will be burned in these special stoves, which have been installed in the back of the Sistine Chapel. That one over there is pretty much just a regular stove that's kept burning all the time. This is the one where the ballots go, and when they put them in, that's the only communication they have with the outside world, because if they have not selected a Pope, then when they throw the ballots inside, they will put some wet straw or some chemicals over there that will make the smoke come up black.

Otherwise, they will let it burn freely or maybe even add some chemicals that kick a little bit of white smoke into it so the world knows if a new Pope has been chosen -- Anderson. COOPER: Tom, thanks very much.

Of course all eyes are going to be on that smokestack late tomorrow afternoon. That's when the first vote actually takes place and there is often some confusion whether the smoke is white or black. It's a little hard to tell. We are actually going to ring the bells of St. Peter's when a Pope has been elected to verify, in fact, it is white smoke.

More now on the candidates and how very, very delicately and very gingerly they may be trying to influence the outcome. There are of course no campaign rallies. However, there is campaigning of a sort.

My colleague Chris Cuomo discovered while spending time with a leading American cardinal.

Chris and I spoke a short time ago.


COOPER: You spent part of yesterday with Cardinal Dolan from New York. One of -- people say a leading contender, although it's doubtful an American would be named Pope this time around. It's an interesting dance they're kind of doing right now.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: He wants to be charismatic. He's telling jokes, he's making the crowd go wild, he said don't tell anybody when he's at his titular church here, but other than St. Patrick's, this is my favorite, the crowd goes wild, but then he's solemn and he says, this is my first conclave, there are such big issues, we went to look to God for inspiration so he has to go back and forth. Not easy. Not easy.

COOPER: Yes. A lot is being made about divisions within the church right now among these 115 cardinals about reformers and people who are more associated with the inner workings of the Vatican. Do you think too much is being made of that?

CUOMO: Ordinarily I would say yes. But this time, we've heard from too many sources, Anderson, that when the foreign cardinals came in, those not from the curia, working here in the Vatican --

COOPER: Well, the Americans (INAUDIBLE).

CUOMO: That's right. And they all came in and they were pushing back, they're saying we're not setting a date for the conclave right away, we want to talk about these big issues and that there's been a lot of robust debate, there are a lot of poor cardinals are meeting on their own about things. So there's real reason to believe this could be a watershed moment for the Catholic Church.

COOPER: Unlikely that it's going to be done within two days like it was the last time.

CUOMO: Last time it was somewhat known that then Joseph Ratzinger was a strong candidate. Here, given the big issues, given that spirit of this is an opportunity, this is unique, we believe it will go longer but it's so frustrating for us to report this because the only men who know anything ain't talking under threat of excommunication.

COOPER: A lot of reporters milling around, 5600 waiting for information.

Chris, appreciate it. It's going to be a fascinating couple of days.


COOPER: Designers have already been hard at work on clothes for the new Pope, whoever he may be, whatever size he may be. Designers are ready for anything, small, medium, large. The robes are all set to go.

Coming up, we're going to show you what goes into the papal outfit from head to toe.

Also ahead, large sugary drinks are safe in New York City for now after a court ruling struck down the ban just before it was supposed to go into effect. We'll get reaction on that next.


COOPER: Just ahead tonight, why there aren't more women in corner offices. Facebook's Sheryl Sandberg offers a controversial explanation in her new book. Coming up, the nerve that has touched.


COOPER: Hey, welcome back. Super-sized sugary drinks got a last minute reprieve today in New York now just hours before a controversial citywide ban was to take effect. A state judge blocked it, calling the ban arbitrary and capricious. Also saying the court finds that the regulation here is laden with exceptions based on economic and political concerns.

Now the ban would have restricted the sale of sugary drinks to no more than 16 ounces in restaurants, fast food eateries, movie theaters, stadiums, and but also would have exempted some retailers, including 7-Eleven which is regulated by the state, not the city. 7- Eleven also sells the popular Big Gulp drinks.

Mayor Michael Bloomberg who pushed hard for this law is vowing to appeal today's ruling. Here's what he said in an interview with David Letterman earlier today.


MAYOR MICHAEL BLOOMBERG, NEW YORK: A state court judge said the department of health didn't have the authority to do it. We think that they do, we'll appeal. In the meantime, this year, 70,000 Americans will die from obesity, 5,000 here in New York. We've got to do something about it. DAVID LETTERMAN, HOST, LATE NIGHT WITH DAVID LETTERMAN: Seventy thousand Americans.

BLOOMBERG: Seventy thousand people will die from obesity.


COOPER: Well, joining me now is Michael Moynihan, senior editor at "Newsweek/Daily Beast," and CNN senior legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin.

So, Jeff, the judge said the ban is, quote, "laden with exceptions based on economic and political concerns." There really are a number of exceptions like convenient stores that would be able to sell these supersized drinks but not restaurants. Beverages with a high milk content would be exempt. Is it -- is this a constitutional issue for the judge or is it because there are just too many loopholes?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, it's sort of hard to tell. He just doesn't like the law and rules it arbitrary. I think it's a terrible decision, poorly reasoned, and the idea that just because you can't ban everything and you can't do everything to limit obesity, that you can't do anything, I think is just a mistaken idea.

I think this was a reasonable step by Mayor Bloomberg and I think an Appeals Court will overturn it.

COOPER: Well, Jeff, I mean, in order to get it to be overturned, would Bloomberg have to try to change the law to make it kind of across the board?

TOOBIN: No, no --

COOPER: To not have there be exemptions or loopholes?

TOOBIN: No, he would just say that this law is reasonable. Look, you know, he banned trans fats in restaurants but he didn't ban trans fats at home. He -- he banned smoking in bars and restaurants, but he didn't ban smoking at home or on the sidewalks.

There are always exceptions. There are always loopholes in law, but that doesn't mean that a judge can throw out the whole thing. This is one step that will limit obesity and diabetes, which are enormous problems in this city, and I don't see why the judge took it upon himself to act like he was the legislature and decide he wouldn't have agreed to this law. That's not what judges are supposed to do.

COOPER: Michael, how do you see it? I know you said this is basically a slippery slope, this ban.

MICHAEL MOYNIHAN, SENIOR EDITOR, NEWSWEEK AND THE DAILY BEAST: Well, it is. And I would say that banning cigarettes in a bar, for instance, where they can adversely affect other people versus banning them in somebody's home is telling people what they can do in their own home is slightly different. In this case, as the judge pointed out, you know, I'll let Jeff adjudicate the legal angle. The moral angle here, I would say, is that it is kind of strange that, you know, you can go to a 7-Eleven, a big corporation, and buy a 28,000 ounce drink and then go -- you can't go next door to this small bodega and buy the same thing because 7-Eleven has bigger power and has lobbied for this sort of thing in the past so the judge is right in that sense that there's a tangle of weird regulations and loopholes.

But I would say yes, it's also a weird slippery slope, is that, you know, Mayor Bloomberg has also talked about banning large sized popcorn in movie theaters. He's, you know, talked about salts, you know, regulating how much salt restaurants use in certain dishes.

I mean, there has to be at some point an end to this. Will this ban, if it were to be overturned, have a significant impact on waistlines? It's doubtful and there's not really a lot of evidence to suggest that. In his news conference today, he talked about the menu labeling and there's a lot of studies that suggest that hasn't helped, either.

So I think there's a much deeper issue that can't be solved here by sort of quick fix bits of regulation.

COOPER: Jeff, what about that? And what about the argument about personal freedoms that people should have the right to make up their own minds in this thing?

TOOBIN: Well, you know, that's why we have government is that personal freedoms are limited. You know, my personal freedom to swing my fist is limited at your nose. People -- there are all sorts of regulations that the government does for people's own good.

We -- I mean the -- remember, there was tremendous opposition to Mayor Bloomberg's attempt to get smoking out of restaurants and bars, and that was considered a personal freedom issue, and now, not only is it enormously popular in the United States, it's spread throughout the whole world, this ban on smoking in bars and restaurants . I just think that, you know, slippery slopes -- it's always easy to argue about the next controversy, but I think we should focus on this controversy. This is not much of a limitation on freedom.

If you are desperate to get a soda, you can buy two. But most people just get the large and this is a common sense attempt to limit what people will eat, drink.

COOPER: As you said, he's going to appeal it. We will continue to watch him. Michael Moynihan, Jeff Toobin, guys, thanks very much.

Just ahead tonight, the backlash over a new book that suggests women may be their own worst enemy when it comes to landing top leadership jobs in the workplace. What do women want and are they going after it?

Also tonight, disturbing reports about the mental health of the so-called blade runner, Oscar Pistorius, accused of murdering his girlfriend. There's word he may be suicidal. His family denies it vigorously.

We'll get an update from Drew Griffin, who just got back from South Africa. And more, we'll hear from Rome about today's conclave later on.


COOPER: Coming up on 360, accused murderer, Oscar Pistorius, is pressing for more lenient bail conditions. What he's asking the court to change and what his family is saying about a report that he may be suicidal. That's ahead.


COOPER: In the last few weeks, one of the most powerful women in business has found herself at the center of a storm that is still raging. Sheryl Sandberg, Chief Operating Officer of Facebook, is facing a backlash because of what she said in her new book, "Lean In, Women, Work and The Will To Lead."

She touched a nerve by suggesting women may be holding themselves back, sabotaging their own success, a provocative message, to be sure, one that has angered some women. On "60 Minutes" last night, Norah O'Donnell asked Sandberg about it.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Some women will hear that and say wow, she's telling me I'm not working hard enough. I'm not trying hard enough. She's blaming women.

SHERYL SANDBERG, COO, FACEBOOK: I'm not blaming women. My message is not one of blaming women. There's an awful lot we don't control. I'm saying there's an awful lot we can control and we can do for ourselves to sit at more tables, raise more hands.


COOPER: What do you think? Before you decide, listen to this conversation I had earlier with Norah O'Donnell and Fortune magazine's Pattie Sellers.


COOPER: Sheryl Sandberg says that it's not just men holding back women. It's actually women holding back themselves. I want to play something from the interview you're doing. Take a look.

SANDBERG: They start leaning back, they say I'm busy, I want to have a child one day. I couldn't possibly take on any more or I'm still learning on my current job. I've never had a man say that stuff to me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You're suggesting women aren't ambitious.

SANDBERG: I'm not suggesting women aren't ambitious. Plenty of women are as ambitious as men. What I am saying and I want to say it unequivocally and unapologetically, the data is clear that when it comes to ambition to lead, to be the leader of whatever you're doing, men, boys outnumber girls and women.

COOPER: What do you think of that notion, that women are holding themselves back?

NORAH O'DONNELL, "60 MINUTES": I think what Sheryl Sandberg is saying is that essentially women have internalized some of the messages that they have been given as young as little girls, when we called girls bossy for their behavior, assigned a negative term for their behavior. I think there's some truth to it. I think there is somewhat of an ambition gap.

COOPER: There's a lot of backlash against her for this.

PATTIE SELLERS, EDITOR-AT-LARGE, "FORTUNE" MAGAZINE: There is. There are two points of view. One is that it's the institution's fault. The other view is, which is Sheryl's view, it's our fault. And there's a polarization here, this happening, and Sheryl is saying I'm taking the braver point of view. The more difficult case to make which is that let's blame ourselves. She's brave.

COOPER: Do you think there would have been this backlash, though, if a man had written this book and said this about men? Do you think there would have been the same kind of backlash?

SELLERS: Well, a man wouldn't say it about men, because men have the same qualifications for a job as a woman does, which may not be enough to get that promotion. A man will put himself out there. A woman will say I need to -- I need to be more ready.

O'DONNELL: I think it's an incredible argument to be having right now because I think women are at a turning point. You have 30 years women have been getting more college degrees than men, for 30 years, Anderson. Women are now getting more Ph.D.s than men, more medical degrees, more law degrees.

We're at this turning point and yet there are so few women in leadership positions. Sheryl Sandberg is saying why is that? She is putting the onus on women themselves and what I've heard from girlfriends and other moms, there's a very strong reaction to what she's saying, a very strong reaction.

Because a lot of people say I can't be Sheryl Sandberg. She's not trying to say be like me but she has embodied this message. The other thing I find interesting about Sheryl Sandberg is for someone so incredibly successful is that she's very insecure.

She is uncomfortable in some ways with her own power and influence and it goes back to as we put in our "60 Minutes" piece from how she was treated both as a young girl and in high school.

COOPER: Sheryl Sandberg says that women in the business world are worried about being liked. O'DONNELL: Yes. Yes. In fact, Mark Zuckerberg said to her at some point I think your biggest problem is that you want too much to be liked.

SELLERS: And Norah, you point out that Sheryl talks a lot in her book about her vulnerabilities, her insecurities. She's very strategic in doing that. She knows she has to do that to be liked and for this message to resonate, because if she got out there and she talked about how she's always been confident. She knew she would be successful, her message would go nowhere.

COOPER: So interesting that double standard exists, that men don't do that and it's fine, and if a woman wrote the same kind of book, with her confidence out in front, it would be viewed as inappropriate somehow.

SELLERS: Right. I think you make an excellent point about that in terms of revealing her vulnerabilities, to make herself more likeable. But at the same time, you know, she's incredibly successful.

What other even anyone, male or female, two Harvard degrees, handpicked by Larry Summers to be chief of staff at the Treasury Department all before the age of 30 and hit two IPOs, Google and Facebook.

Almost a billionaire and her husband is incredibly wealthy and successful in Silicon Valley. She is at the pinnacle of success.

O'DONNELL: She is. She's at the pinnacle of success, incredibly powerful woman and the question is why she's really doing this, because most other women in business, as Pattie knows better than anyone else, try not to bring up the whole point they're a woman in business. They just want to be a business person.

SELLERS: We have been tracking powerful women now for 15 years, and women -- successful women are different from successful men.

COOPER: In what ways?

SELLERS: Men tend to view their careers as ladders, straight up, they look at the next rung. They view power vertically. Women and I have asked hundreds of women and probably at this point, hundreds of men, how do you view power? Women tend to view power horizontally.

COOPER: Which means what?

SELLERS: It's all about influence. It's all about having an influence, not necessarily just getting the next job, but being effective broadly. It's what causes a lot of women to drop out of corporate America because they don't feel fulfilled just by getting that promotion or a big pay raise.

What we see Sheryl Sandberg doing right now is a reflection of that. She's not satisfied being COO of Facebook. She wants to do something more. She's looking at her power horizontally. O'DONNELL: She's also got I think kind of a tough message, which is that she was speaking to a group of Harvard business school students and she bluntly said, you know, a third of you women will not be working in 10 years from now and the rest of you will actually be working for the guy sitting next to you.

That's a pretty startling message to hear. Why is it that women even in the most elite women who have advanced degrees from some of the most prestigious schools in this country have chosen to drop out of the work force and are not interested in leadership positions. That's a really interesting thing to think about, I think.

COOPER: Good discussion to have. Norah, fascinating piece. Thank you very much.


COOPER: Let us know what you think on Twitter right now, @andersoncooper. Here in Rome, the first vote on a new pope could be just hours away, probably about 12 or 13 hours away. We don't know who will accept the job. There is already a lot of buzz over what he'll wear from head to toe, believe it or not. We'll look at that when we continue.


COOPER: Tonight conflicting reports about Oscar Pistorius' mental health. As you probably know, the South African track star is accused murdering his girlfriend, Reeva Steenkamp. He's out on bail awaiting trial.

He admits he killed Steenkamp, but claims it was a terrible mistake, he mistook her for an intruder. Pistorius is known as the blade runner has been living at his uncle's home under the conditions of his bail. He can't return to his own home where the killing occurred, or have any alcohol. He also had to give up his passport.

Today, BBC reported that Pistorius is suicidal and basically broke. They cited a close family friend as their source. The blade runner's family is denying those reports. Drew Griffin has been following the case closely, just returned from South Africa. What's the latest, Drew?

DREW GRIFFIN, CNN INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: Two developments today, Anderson. One, the denial that Pistorius is in fact destitute and suicidal and two, the blade runner asking for even more leniency in those bail conditions, including allowing him to leave South Africa.

He's already been allowed out of jail while he awaits trial but he can't travel, is pretty much restricted to his uncle's mansion in Pretoria. His lawyers say he now wants his passport back and he wants to be able to travel internationally, presumably to make some appearances where he can be paid, make money for his defense.

The National Prosecutor's Office says it's going to oppose any lifting of that travel ban and other things that he wants lifted from his bail.

COOPER: On that, the family admits he is in need of money and there's a report he's depressed to the point of suicide. What have you heard about that?

GRIFFIN: Yes, that report, a BBC report, quoting a close friend over the weekend, it said Oscar is really down, he's suicidal. That just not true, according to his Uncle Arnold. That's the Arnold that he's staying with.

Arnold Pistorius released this statement today saying in part that "Oscar, broken as he currently is, believes he does have a purpose in life and is working towards that. Media reports to the contrary are untrue."

The uncle flat out denying any suicide threats, but the statement did go on to say that Oscar is trying to sell that home in Pretoria and some racehorses to cover the trial expenses.

COOPER: As for the case itself, to people who may not have followed this, it's extraordinary position for him to be in, claiming he was awoken in the middle of the night, that his girlfriend was spending the night and somehow he got up from the bed, heard some sort of noise.

Grabbed the gun and shot what he thought was a burglar through the door of a bathroom, only realizing after the shooting he had in fact shot his girlfriend, Reeva Steenkamp, who he said I guess he didn't even check the bed for.

GRIFFIN: Yes. The bed he got out of, by the way. Yes. I must tell you, South Africans are really struggling to believe this truly beloved sports star of their country. Even given the level of anxiety of their crime in South Africa, Anderson, he lived in an extremely secure community, electrified fences all around it, dogs.

And we are talking about shooting through a toilet door, not just the bathroom door, but an interior door to just toilet without knowing who's behind it. When I was in South Africa, I talked to the president of the South African Sports Shooting Club about this.

And he says really, there are just two options here. Either Oscar Pistorius is the most irresponsible gun owner in South Africa, or he is, as the prosecutors allege, guilty of premeditated murder.


GRIFFIN: He knows not what's behind that closed door. That doesn't sound like what you would advocate as responsible gun ownership.

ADNAAN JACOBS, CHAIRMAN, SOUTH AFRICAN PRACTICAL SHOOTING ASSOCIATION: Sir, I'm going to be very honest and very frank. It's very tragic that this happened, but at the practical shooting association, we teach that if you do not see a target, do not engage it. Bottom line, so shooting, for Oscar to shoot through a door, how do you know what you're shooting at the other side? So if you don't see a target, when you see the target, point the gun, engage the target.

If there's no target and you are pointing a gun, sorry, go home. Bye-bye. So what I'm trying to say to you is we would never say shoot through something, you don't know what you're shooting and what the target is on the other side.


GRIFFIN: Just some disbelief, Anderson, from gun experts in South Africa. Oscar Pistorius' next court appearance not scheduled until June, unless they have some kind of bail modification hearing -- Anderson.

COOPER: Again, we'll see if his passport is given back. Let's get caught up on some other stories we're following. Isha is here with the "360 News and Business Bulletin" -- Isha.

ISHA SESAY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, two Americans were killed and at least ten were wounded in a shootout in Afghanistan today. Someone wearing an Afghan National Security Forces uniform opened fire with a truck-mounted machine gun after a meeting between coalition and Afghan forces. A U.S. official says coalition forces returned fire and killed the attacker and two Afghan army personnel.

North Korea's army has scrapped the armistice disagreement that ended the Korean War in 1953 that's according to the official newspaper of the country's ruling party. North Korea had been threatening the move ever since the U.N. Security Council passed stronger sanctions following its nuclear test last month. North Korea has nullified the agreement several other times in the past.

The NFL is teaming up with GE and Under Armour in a $60 million four-year deal aimed at reducing the threat of head injuries for football players. The $40 million will go to research and $20 million will go to prizes for new diagnostic techniques and ways to prevent injuries.

Anderson, Justin Timberlake's fifth time as host was a charm for "Saturday Night Live." His hosting gig this weekend reportedly brought "SNL" its highest ratings since January 2012. He's doing more than bringing sexy back on Saturday night.

COOPER: He is a great host of that show every time he's on. The guy is so multi-talented.

Coming up, fascinating story, we don't know who the next pope is going to be. Poses a dilemma for those who have to make his clothing and make his clothing for his first public appearance moments after he's elected pope. How do they do that? We'll explain.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) COOPER: Here in Rome, really across the entire world, people are waiting to hear who will be the next pope. But for those who have to design what the new pope will wear, the mystery hits a little closer to home.

They've got to be ready for pretty much anything, including small, medium or large, and they are, from the robes right down to the shoes. Dressing the pope is a challenge for any designer, but it is certainly a welcome one. Dan Rivers has the story.


DAN RIVERS, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): You might think dressing a pope is easy, the mantle, the cape, the papal skull cap and the long white robes, but while the outline is carefully controlled by the Vatican, there are subtle variations allowing each pope his own sartorial expression.

Benedict XVI famously sported smart red shoes, initially wrongly identified as Prada, which of course only the devil wears. In fact, the shoes were made here in a back street shop near the Vatican by Peruvian cobbler Antonio Arilonda.

He says he's incredibly proud to have provided shoes to the pope and hopes the next pontiff will order his footwear here, too. Some of the pope's robes are made here at family firm Gamarelli. In the shop window, three outfits ready to take to the Vatican.

LORENZO GAMARELLI, CLOTHING SHOP OWNER: There are three different sizes, small, medium and large because we don't know who the next pope will be.

RIVERS: Gullelmo Mariotto is a fashion director at Gattinoni, a top Italian couture house. He shows me the workshop where they made garments for previous popes, including this green mantle embroidered with threads of sack cloth to represent the humility of St. Francis and controversially where they made papal costumes for women, so- called popetessas who took part in an irreverent fashion show.

His most serious work is dressing the likes of Pope Benedict XVI who was harder to design for than John Paul II whose charisma was easy to reflect.

GULLELMO MARIOTTO, FASHION DIRECTOR, GATTINONI: In the case of Benedict, it's a different charm. It's more like the president's cool, no kidding, plus the German accent, plus he's not the tallest in the world. Come on. What can you do?

RIVERS: He doesn't know who will be the next pope, but says in this case, the clothes do not maketh the man.

MARIOTTO: I don't wish a pope I can dress. I wish a pope that can fix the problems and can make me feel like I have a pope. Then whatever he is, we can dress him with pleasure, with love and everything. But we need a pope. The pope is need always, you know? RIVERS: Deciding what to wear is the least of the pope's problems, but for the designers who have to put their own spin on the papal outfit, there is no greater challenge than making clothes for the pope. Dan Rivers, CNN, Rome.


COOPER: We'll see what he wears his first day out. See you one hour from now, another edition of 360 10:00 p.m. Eastern from Rome. Thanks for watching. "PIERS MORGAN TONIGHT" starts now.