Return to Transcripts main page
ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
The NSA Leaker; NSA Leak Controversy; Julian Assange on the NSA Leaker; Trayvon Martin Murder Case; Jury Selection Begins In Zimmerman Case; Tornado Near Eldesburg, Maryland; Administration Drops Plan B Opposition; Doctor Charged With Poisoning Colleague; Chewbacca Actor Delayed By Lightsaber Cane; How Santa Monica Rampage Unfolded; Carjacked By Santa Monica Gunman; Promoter: I Slapped A "Drunk And Despondent" Michael Jackson; Mandela Hospitalized With Lung Infection; Apple Unveil New Mobile Operating System; Prince Harry Shows Off His Chopper Skills
Aired June 10, 2013 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks. Good evening, everyone. We have new reporting that might, just might shed some light on how quickly authorities knew about that massive intelligence leak. They might have been on to Edward Snowden before newspapers published his revelations.
Also tonight what the man behind WikiLeaks has to say about the Snowden affair. Julian Assange who's seeking safety in the embassy in Ecuador in England. He is speaking out tonight. We'll talk to him.
Later a 360 exclusive, a woman describing the terror on Friday. A gunman opens fire on others and her, then jumps in her car and says drive. Her close encounter with a man in mid-rampage. What he said, what he did on his way to the next and final killing ground on Friday.
We begin, though, with the very latest on Edward Snowden, the defense contractor who revealed two big government surveillance programs, one targeting your phone records, the other focused on the Internet in search of terrorist connections. Tonight, why he says he did it, what law enforcement is going to do about it, what some believe should be done to him, and what a majority of Americans think about the operations that he exposed.
We're going to talk about all of it tonight, starting with another big question. Just who is this guy? Some early answers now from our Brian Todd.
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Described as shy and self-effacing, the man who says he was the source of leaks detailing massive U.S. surveillance programs, tells "The Guardian" newspaper why he did it.
Edward Snowden says, quote, "I'm no different from anyone else."
EDWARD SNOWDEN, LEAKED NSA DOCUMENTS: I'm just another guy who sits there day to day in the office, watches what's happening and goes, this is something that's not our place to decide. The public needs to decide whether these programs and policies are right or wrong.
TODD: Snowden said that from a hotel in Hong Kong, after having left his girlfriend in Hawaii where they reportedly shared a home. She's not the only person with whom he may have severed ties by leaking and then going public.
(On camera): Edward Snowden "The Guardian" that the only thing he fears is the harmful effects of all of this on his family, some of whom he said work for the U.S. government. We've confirmed that his mother, Elizabeth Snowden, works here at the U.S. District Courthouse in Baltimore, Maryland, with the title "Chief Deputy Clerk for Information Technology and Administrative Services." Officials here said she was not available to speak to us.
(Voice-over): Elizabeth Snowden also did not return our calls and e- mails. Outside her home near Baltimore, she was no more eager to speak to reporters.
ELIZABETH SNOWDEN, EDWARD SNOWDEN'S MOTHER: Please do not get in my way. Thank you.
TODD: The "Guardian" says Edward Snowden moved to Maryland from Elizabeth City, North Carolina, where he spent his youth. CNN has learned he went to elementary and middle school in Crafton, Maryland, went to Arundel High School nearby. But according to "The Guardian" he never got a high school degree. He enlisted in the Army in 2004, was discharged the same year. He told "The Guardian" it was because he broke his legs in a training accident.
Snowden told "The Guardian" he got his first job at the NSA as a security guard. He later became an I.T. security specialist at the CIA. From there he went to a private contractor doing work for the NSA. He said his computer skills enabled him to move up quickly despite the lack of a high school degree. Before he took off for Hong Kong, he says he was making $200,000 a year.
His success surprises Joyce Kinsey, a neighbor of Snowden's mother's, who saw Edward Snowden on occasion at the mother's condo.
JOYCE KINSEY, NEIGHBOR AT SNOWDEN'S MOTHER: When you say hi to him, and everything, he'll say hi, but he's always looking down, he's not looking at you. And it's like he doesn't make eye contact. But he was very personable and very nice, and I always saw him on the computer. I could see out my window, and I could see him on the computer.
TODD: Edward Snowden told "The Guardian" he had high hopes when President Obama vowed a more transparent administration, but that he became disappointed in the president.
We've learned Snowden's name is on two contributions last year, totaling $500 to libertarian Ron Paul's campaign. Snowden tells "The Guardian" he hopes for asylum in Iceland, but he also said, quote, "all my options are bad."
Brian Todd, CNN, Ellicott City, Maryland. (END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Well, as soon as this story broke, we sent our Miguel Marquez to see if he could learn more about Snowden by going to the last place he was before dropping off the map and ending up in Hong Kong. Miguel has new reporting tonight that at least suggest Snowden knew he wouldn't be coming back. There's that and signs as well that the feds might have been on to him earlier than previously thought.
Miguel Marquez joins us now from -- from Honolulu.
So before he leaked the classified information, Snowden has said that he told his employer Booz Allen Hamilton that he needed some time off to seek medical treatment for epilepsy, but you're learning that police actually showed up at his home last Wednesday, which was the day before "The Guardian's" report on Snowden's allegedly leaked information.
So just -- were they there to check on his welfare?
MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, this is part of it that's a little confusing. They did say there was a realtor at the house when they got there. She said that they were just asking, how is he doing, what's going on? But the house was completely empty. He had moved out of that house on May 6th, never told his employer he was -- he was moving. He left Hawaii on May 20th.
And then when these two police officers, one uniformed, one out of uniform, the realtor wasn't sure if this was a federal official or not, but clearly officials were very concerned that he hadn't gone back to work and wanted to know where his -- where he was, where exactly his whereabouts. They -- their blood must have run cold when they realized the house that they'd thought he lived in was completely empty -- Anderson.
COOPER: And he lived with this girlfriend in Hawaii. Do we know any details on that? I mean, what did she tell you?
MARQUEZ: She -- he told her that he was going away for a two-week period according to "The Guardian." What is curious about that is that they moved everything out of their house, packed everything up, she's gone back to the mainland, her family now says that she is visiting friends on the West Coast. Won't specify where. We also don't know where the contents of their house has gone. Has it gone into a storage facility somewhere here? Has it been shipped back to the U.S.? Is it on a ship, a container ship on its way back to the U.S.?
But as far as we can tell, either here in Hawaii or the mainland, not a single warrant has been issued yet by federal officials. It seems given the way the feds are acting at the moment that this really caught them completely flat footed -- Anderson.
COOPER: Interesting. Miguel Marquez, appreciate it.
Miguel is reporting from Honolulu. New polling tonight about what Americans think of one of the two surveillance programs that Edward Snowden apparently revealed. In a survey from the Pew Research Center on the NSA call tracking operations, 56 percent find it acceptable, 41 percent disagree.
As for Snowden, one leading lawmaker practically calls him a traitor.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. PETER KING (R), NEW YORK: He knows where our intelligence assets are, who our intelligence agents are around the world, and the fact that he has allowed our enemy to know what our sources and methods are is extremely, extremely dangerous. I believe he should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. I consider him right now to be a defector.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: You may remember Peter King was also very critical of Julian Assange from WikiLeaks. We're going to talk to Julian Assange shortly coming up.
Senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin also weighed in today in a column for "The New Yorker" magazine online. He joins us along with former CIA officer, Bob Baer.
Bob, let me start with you. You just heard Congressman Peter King label Snowden a defector. How would intelligence officials treat this investigation considering he was last seen in Hong Kong?
ROBERT BAER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: As a counter intelligence investigation, it would default to that immediately. The CIA and the FBI look at China as a hostile country. It has an active intelligence program against the United States. It would do anything to get a source, like this young man. Right now I'd be very surprised if they're not questioning him what he knew.
COOPER: The Chinese?
BAER: Remember the -- the Chinese, yes. Honolulu is an important relay station for the National Security Agency. All our spying on China would be filtered through there. What did he know, what didn't he know. What did he have access to, what did he bring out. I mean, the Chinese would be remiss not talking to him right now.
COOPER: So you're saying if they treat it like a counterintelligence case, if the U.S. treats it like a counterintelligence case, how does that inform how they investigate him?
BAER: They're going to be going through his Internet connections, his telephones, his connections in Hawaii, to see if he possibly -- and I'm -- this is a possibility, I'm not saying it happened -- contacted by Chinese intelligence. And once he got to Hong Kong, who he was he met by? You know, was he met at the airport? Things like this. There's all sorts of sources they could -- they could check on this.
But they absolutely, Anderson, have to treat this as the worst -case possibility. And this is an aside from the right or wrong of revealing this stuff, they just have to assume that he's in hostile hands.
COOPER: Jeff, you wrote a pretty scathing piece for the "New Yorker" today, calling Snowden, quote, "a grandiose narcissist who deserves to be in prison." There are a lot of people out there who think he's a hero. And as I said I'm going to talk to Julian Assange in just a moment.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: And Anderson, I've heard -- I've heard from most of those people on Twitter.
TOOBIN: Who think he's a hero.
COOPER: But why -- now why do you -- why do you say that?
TOOBIN: Well, because our system does not allow a 29-year-old who is an expert on precisely nothing to decide on his own that a project -- it's not illegal, but he doesn't like it. And so he is going to undermine the work of thousands of people and billions of dollars of taxpayer money and give away these secrets because he doesn't like this program.
That is illegal because he took an oath and he signed -- and he signed a contract, not to disclose it, and it's also immoral because he shouldn't have the right to undermine the work of all these people. There are channels for whistleblowers inside agencies. Through Congress, through the courts, not through Glenn Greenwald of "The Guardian." That's not what you're supposed to do.
COOPER: Let me just push back, Jess. What -- I mean, there are people who say, look, he is a whistleblower, and some -- and that a public debate about this is necessary. This is something that the public has a right to know about, if it's affecting them. What do you say to that?
TOOBIN: Well, the public has a right to know, but there -- the way to bring it to public attention is not to commit crimes. And yes, it is possible he wouldn't get as much attention if he simply went to the senators, like Jeff Merkley, like Senator Udall who cared deeply about this issue and are doing it the right way. Instead, he just threw this stuff out to newspaper reporters at the "Washington Post" and "The Guardian" who were more responsible than he was, who actually didn't publish everything they did.
He was so irresponsible that even Bart Gellman of the "Washington Post" and Glenn Greenwald said, you know what, this is too much, we're not going to release that. We can't have a system where people with classified -- access to classified information behave that way and that's why we have laws against it.
COOPER: Jeff, as far as extradition goes, the U.S. has a treaty with China. How does that process actually work if he's still in Hong Kong or Chinese territory?
TOOBIN: Well, it's a really unusual situation. Because, yes, we have a treaty with Hong Kong, but Hong Kong is legally part of China. Now we have had a very successful relationship with Hong Kong and law enforcement regarding violent crimes, regarding white-collar crimes, regarding drugs. The question here is, what does China want to do, because ultimately China is going to be calling the shots here and China is not our friend when it comes to intelligence matters.
China is going to want to exploit this the best they can. Frankly, I don't know what that is. Is it letting him go, is it keeping him, is it using him in some way? But it just shows by taking these matters into his own hands, he has given a gift to our leading intelligence adversary in the world.
COOPER: The treaty, I understand, that the U.S. has with China includes what's called a political offense exception for cases in which the extraditing country believes someone is being pursued for political reasons.
TOOBIN: Right, and that was put in at the instigation of the United States, which thought that China might be pursuing political prisoners who were here. Here is a reverse situation where China may claim that we are pursuing Snowden because of political reasons. But if he's indicted in an American court for disclosure of classified information, I don't know how that could be treated as a political crime.
That's something that's prosecuted in American courts all the time, but it's going to be ultimately up to China. And China is going to do what's good for China.
COOPER: Yes, Bob, it's interesting. I talked to Julian Assange coming up in -- after the break, and his advice is that Snowden should try to get to some countries in Latin American that don't cooperate with the U.S., that don't have extradition, that don't -- haven't been involved in rendition programs with the CIA.
But Snowden was working for the government through a contractor. I don't think a lot of people realize how many outside employees make up our intelligence network, just how many people now have top secret security clearances. It's a staggering number. BAER: It's amazing. The CIA is 50/50, or 50 percent are contractors. Contractors are hiring contractors. They have inflated salaries. They're just entrenched in the place. And it's very difficult to keep track of them. It's much easier to follow a civil servant, make sure they're happy, promote them and the rest of it. Contractors are taking on and fired, and it's not a surprise to me at all that a company like this would take somebody on without a high school degree and pay them $200,000.
I mean I find it outrageous. And he wasn't -- he clearly wasn't vetted to keep a secret. And this is what we get.
COOPER: Bob Baer, Jeff Toobin, appreciate you guys being on.
Let us know what you think. Follow -- let's talk about this on Twitter right now during the break. I'll be tweeting tonight @andersoncooper.
Up next, someone who did what Edward Snowden did in a different kind of way is now living in limbo holed up in the London embassy, in the embassy of -- country of Ecuador. He's been there for more than a year.
You're going to hear WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange's take on Snowden's revelations and what he sees -- what he says as the abusive government secrecy.
Also later, jury selection beginning in the George Zimmerman case. What jurors may be in for when Florida's trial at the moment almost certainly heats up.
COOPER: Some breaking news. You're looking at a Southwest plane, a 737 on the tarmac in Phoenix. We've got limited information this moment. FBI spokeswoman in Los Angeles saying the airliner departed LAX at 2:12 Pacific Time and was diverted because of a telephone threat of some sort.
We're trying to gain more information. We'll let you know when we have it.
In just a few short days, Edward Snowden has been called every name in the book from truth-teller to traitor, whistleblower to weasel. He's spoken out against practices that he says threatened American democracy and been denounced as a threat to it himself.
Julian Assange knows certainly without his like. He's the founder of the Web site WikiLeaks. For almost a year he's been living in the Ecuadorian embassy in London but facing potential charges here relating to material that he leaked. He joins us tonight.
Julian, I want to talk to you about Bradley Manning, but I first want to start talking to you about Edward Snowden. What do you make of the leaks that Edward Snowden made to "The Guardian" and "Washington Post"?
JULIAN ASSANGE, WIKILEAKS FOUNDER: Here we have a situation where clear proof has been offered to something that I and many other technical civil rights campaigners have been speaking about over the last five years, and that the oversight of this process is done in secret. The policy is secret. That it's not a case of looking at a particular suspect and deciding to apply surveillance to them as we once had done in the past. But rather I just spoke arbitrary (INAUDIBLE) fishing across not just Americans but the -- potentially the whole of the human race. COOPER: The U.S. government, though, as you know, and President Obama himself. said, look, we're not listening to American's phone conversations, this is kind of data mining. This gives an overview and then it allows you to kind of look at patterns and to try to trace down individuals who you have suspicions about. And they point the case at Najibullah Zazi who they say this program helped to apprehend him and prevented bombings in -- you know, another terror attack in New York.
Do you see no validity to a secret program like this?
ASSANGE: Not to a secret program. No one accepted and gave him that mandate to engage in a worldwide surveillance program on nearly every person. Now you've seen a lot of double rhetoric used by Obama. For example, the massive daily collection of Verizon information sent daily to the National Security Agency, where you see Obama come out and say, oh, but it didn't include the identities of the subscribers.
It includes their phone numbers, just Google reverse number look up, every police agency, even you yourself can go out there and do reverse number look up. So this is the -- this is the sort of duplicity in the conversation, which means you can't trust any sort of statement that the White House is making on the issue.
Of course, in particular cases, where there is sufficient evidence it is right to surveil some people for some amount of time. But that's what we did in the past. I mean, that's what's being done historically. That work historically. And now we see just a persiflage mass worldwide surveillance.
COOPER: Given the fact that you're hold up in the Ecuadorian embassy under close watch I assume by British authorities, I assume you personally are very limited with who you can communicate with, who you can actually meet with. Have you been in touch with this guy Snowden or has anyone from your organization?
ASSANGE: Well, as you know that there's been extensive surveillance of this embassy. The British government admit to spending $5 million in the last 11 months alone, just on the police surveillance. Not including intelligence surveillance of this embassy. So of course it's somewhat difficult for me to communicate with people in such a position. But we are -- have been monitoring the situation very closely and of course I have a lot of personal experience in the situation, so does the organization. And we're trying to help in the limited ways we can.
COOPER: Would you advise him to remain in Hong Kong? We don't know where he is now. I mean, is that -- what is his best bet moving forward?
ASSANGE: Well, we don't know all the strategy that Snowden and perhaps the journalists and his advisers have put together. I hope that there is something really solid there. But looking at it from the surface, I would strongly advise him to go to Latin America. Latin America has shown the past 10 years that it is really pushing forward in human rights. There's a long tradition of asylum. COOPER: When WikiLeaks published the huge trove of communications and documents that Bradley Manning allegedly provided to you, many in the administration and in Congress very publicly and loudly said this caused tremendous damage to the U.S., put hundreds of people at risk. What's interesting is that since then, and if you do research on it, U.S. officials have actually said that the information WikiLeaks published did not really significantly compromise U.S. security.
I read an article in 2010, then Defense secretary Bob Gates said the revelations were embarrassing and awkward, but he's called them, quote, "fairly modest" in terms of the consequences on U.S. foreign policy. There was talk about, well, this is going to hurt Afghans, they're going to get attacked by the Taliban because of some of the revelations. An official told CNN, I think it was in 2010 that they didn't have to move any Afghans because of the revelations.
And yet Bradley Manning is facing life in prison for potentially aiding the enemy. Do you see a contradiction there?
ASSANGE: You're correct to point out that even if we then move to the speculative harm, actually NATO officials in Kabul told CNN they couldn't even see someone who needed to be protected from the speculative component.
What is a travesty about the Bradley Manning prosecution, the Defense has received preemptive bans on the argument. They're being cut off at the knees. They're not able to tend to any of those that there has been no harm. Any U.S. document, any U.S. official, any witness they're not able to make that argument. And Laura Poitras, Glenn Greenwald, the two journalists involved in the Snowden case, what is the chance that they're going to be in my position, alleged to be committing conspiracy to commit espionage?
What is the chance Snowden is going to be charged with aiding the enemy is going to be exactly in the same position that Bradley Manning is in in three years' life? This precedent has got to be eliminated, otherwise it is the end of national security journalism in the United States.
COOPER: Julian Assange, I really appreciate it. Thank you.
ASSANGE: Thank you.
COOPER: Well, let me know what you think about the conversation we've had tonight on this. Where do you stand? Do you agree with Julian Assange? Do you agree with Jeff Toobin, Bob Baer? Let's talk about it on Twitter @andersoncooper.
We know it's highly anticipated trial is getting underway in Florida. Jury selection began today in the George Zimmerman trial. Hundreds of potential jurors are being questioned. Will eventually decide if the shooting death of Trayvon Martin was murder or self-defense. We're going to get a live update from Stanford, Florida, next.
Also ahead, look at exactly what happened during that Santa Monica shooting rampage that left five people dead on Friday. We'll also hear from a woman who was forced at gunpoint by the shooter to drive the gunman to Santa Monica College.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He starts yelling at me to drive down the street. And basically just giving me directions, go right, go left, go straight, until we got to a red light, intersection, at which point he opened his door and started firing on the bus next to us into the cars that were coming toward us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: In Florida, jury selection has begun in the trial of George Zimmerman, charged with the second-degree murder in the death of 17- year-old Trayvon Martin back in 2012. As you remember Zimmerman was a neighborhood watch volunteer, says he shot the unarmed teenager in self-defense. There's a jury pool of 500 people. Attorneys started questioning some of them and in the end six jurors and at least two alternates will be chosen to decide Zimmerman's fate.
Martin Savidge joins us now live from Stanford, Florida.
So four potential jurors were questioned today. What do we know about them? I mean, what kind of questions were they asked?
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we don't know a lot because of course their identities are being kept secret for the time being. What we do know is that of the four three of them were women. One of them appears to be a minority. The fourth person is a retired white man. We know that two of the women talked about having children. And we also know that two of the women talked about working overnight jobs. Beyond that, we don't know a lot.
We do know the questions were primarily focused on how much media exposure had they received about this trial? And were they influenced as a result of that exposure? What do they know about it, how much? The amazing thing was, at least to me, given the tremendous amount of media exposure, almost -- well, I would say all four said that they didn't really know that much about the case. So if you're one of those on the defense or on the prosecution, I guess that's good news.
COOPER: I was surprised the judge hasn't decided yet whether the jury's going to be sequestered, correct?
SAVIDGE: Correct. Not publicly, there seems to have been a lot of back and forth behind the scenes or in chambers about this particular discussion, and it was also interesting that the defense did raise that issue when questioning one of the jurors, asking her, this is going to be a long trial. They said, 6 to 8 weeks minimum, and would you, if you were sequestered would that be a hardship for you? This particular woman said, no, it would not. So sequestration is still out there.
COOPER: But the jurors' identities -- they're going to be protected, correct? SAVIDGE: They are. I mean, I don't think there are too many cases actually where they are not protected. In other words, when the trial gets going, we generally do not get to look over with the cameras and see who they are. We don't get to find out the identities until often after the case is completely over.
I suppose maybe in this particular case, it could be a bit care given to protect their identities, but it is pretty much a standard procedure that we just don't identify the jurors and you won't see them during the trial even during say when they're coming and going.
COOPER: Right. Martin Savidge, appreciate the update, thanks. Let's get some of the latest on some of the other stories we're following. Isha is here with the "360 Bulletin" -- Isha.
ISHA SESAY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, more breaking news tonight, the confirmed tornado has been spotted near Eldersburg, Maryland, about 30 miles northwest of Baltimore. That's according to the National Weather Service Twitter account, which urges people to seek shelter now.
Also breaking, the Obama administration is giving up on court efforts to block non-prescription sales of the Plan B morning after contraception pill. That's according to the "New York Times." According to "The Times," the Justice Department concluded that even it won initially it might lose the case on appeal.
A doctor in Houston has been charged with aggravated assault for allegedly poisoning his colleague's coffee. Dr. Anna Maria Gonzalez Angulo was reportedly involved in a sexual relationship with Dr. George Bloomenshine when the incident happened. Court documents say Bloomenshine went to the emergency room with renal failure and a compound found in anti-freeze was detected in his system.
Anderson, the actor who played Chewbacca in the "Star Wars" movies, was briefly stopped by the TSA at the Denver Airport because of his cane, which kind of looks like a light saber. The TSA says the unusual weight of the cane got an officer's attention. But the passenger and the light saber cane were cleared to travel within 5 minutes.
COOPER: Have you ever seen "Star Wars?"
SESAY: That should be my question to you, strange boy.
COOPER: Isha, thanks.
Just ahead, this is an incredible interview with a woman, imagine you would be driving down the road and suddenly a gunman stops you, carjacks you and forces you to drive to a school where he's going to commit a shooting at people and buses all along the way. We're going to talk to the woman held at gunpoint. Describing ten terrifying minutes and how she kept her cool.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just kept saying, don't hurt me, I have children, don't hurt me. Thank God I didn't have a child in the back seat. He shot right into where the child would have been sitting.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Over the weekend the death toll in the Santa Monica shooting rampage rose to five. The 26-year-old Marcelo Franco shown here with his father Carlos Navarro Franco was taken off life support just yesterday. Carlos died Friday shortly after he was shot. They weren't his first victims or his last. His rampage began a mile away from where the Franco's were gunned down.
We were covering the breaking story Friday as we went on air the situation on the ground was certainly chaotic to say the least. Tonight, we do have a much clearer idea of how it all went down. Here's Gary Tuchman.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The house is on fire.
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's 11:52 a.m. when police in Santa Monica, California received reports of shots fired at a house. When they got there, the house is engulfed in flames. Over the next 13 minutes, the shooter goes on a rampage.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's heavily armed himself and he was ready for battle.
TUCHMAN: The gunman, John Zawahri, has multiple firearms, some two dozen magazine clips and about 1,300 rounds of ammunition.
CHIEF JACQUELINE SEABROOKS, SANTA MONICA POLICE: Many times someone puts on a vest of some sort, comes out with a bag of loaded magazines, has a handgun and has a semiautomatic rifle, carjacks folks, goes to a college, kills more people and has to be neutralized at the hands of police, I would say that that's premeditated.
TUCHMAN: The bodies of Zawahri's father and brother are found in a burned out house, shot to death. The gunman then carjacks a vehicle, but not before shooting and wounding a good Samaritan who sees the gunman put a rifle to the head of the carjack victim. He forces that victim to drive the car and opens fire at a passing bus wounding three people.
Zawahri then gets out of the car near the campus of Santa Monica College. Sparing the driver but then randomly shooting a father and daughter. The 68-year-old Carlos Navarro Franco and 26-year-old Marcela Franco, the father dies on the scene. She dies Sunday after being taken off life support.
Marcela was a student at the school, her father a groundskeeper there. They were together to buy textbooks for Marcela. But the gunman isn't done. He keeps shooting outside the college library.
SEABROOKS: The suspect walked along the campus, shooting as he went along, he encountered an unidentified woman in front of the campus library. He shot her and she later died at an area hospital.
TUCHMAN: Margarita Gomez was the name of the gunman's final victim. She was the Santa Monica resident who happened to be at the college that day. These chilling photos make it clear there could have been more victims. You can clearly see Zawahri going into the college library rifle in hand.
SEABROOKS: The suspect entered the library. He attempted to kill several library patrons who were hiding in a safe room. Those -- it's miraculous those individuals were not physically injured. The suspect returned to the main area of the library where he encountered three police officers, two from the Santa Monica Police Department and one from the Santa Monica College Police Department. Relying on their training and tactics, they were able to neutralize the suspect.
TUCHMAN: It's now 12:05 p.m., once again, only 13 minutes after the initial police report. The rampage is over, the gunman dead. Exactly why Zawahri went on this murderous spree is not known. But authorities say he had been hospitalized in the past because of mental health problems.
In 2006, police had contact with him for some type of issue. Those details are not being released because he was a juvenile at the time. It's also not known why he started shooting at random people at Santa Monica College, but he was a student there in 2010. This man is the relative of the father and daughter who were killed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why it happened to them?
TUCHMAN: So many questions like likely will never be answered. Gary Tuchman, CNN.
COOPER: That's horrific. That Good Samaritan, by the way, who risked her own life by trying to stop the carjacking, her name is Deborah Fine. Here's how she described coming face to face with the shooter.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DEBORAH FINE, WOUNDED IN SANTA MONICA SHOOTING: I thought to myself, what are you doing? Why are you pointing this gun at her? I was so angry that he was pointing the gun at her and that she was scared. And I just wanted to stand up for her. I'll never forget his eyes. They were just so intense and so cold. And so matter of fact like he was just on a mission. No emotion, I was somebody in the way, and I was something to get out of the way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: She was a great citizen. Deborah Fine still has shrapnel inside her body. Now remember on Friday President Obama was actually in Santa Monica attending a fundraiser. Laura Sisk, the woman Deborah tried to save from being carjacked initially thought that the gunman might be part of the presidential security force, but soon became clear he was not. No need to tell Laura she is lucky to be alive. I spoke to her earlier. Here's the exclusive interview.
COOPER: So Laura, what exactly happened and when did you first see the shooter? Where were you going?
LAURA SISK, CARJACKING VICTIM: I was driving to my nephew's play at school, at New Road School in Los Angeles. Due to the blockade and Obama being in town, I was winding through city streets trying to make my way there. And he appeared just out of -- behind a car that was in front me, he just appeared in the middle of the road, pointing a machine gun at me.
COOPER: What did he look like?
SISK: He was dressed all in tactical gear from head to toe, sort of a medium sized person, brown hair, pointing the gun, saying, pull over, pull over.
COOPER: And so then what happened?
SISK: I believe I asked him, who are you, thinking he was part of the -- Obama's team, and I think I said it a few times, who are you? He just kept yelling at me, pull over. I just pulled over. I believe there was gunfire at that time to another vehicle.
COOPER: So he was shooting at another vehicle?
SISK: Shooting at another vehicle, and then shooting at my vehicle, my windows exploded and he screamed at me to get out of the car, and to pick up his bag that was on the ground and to put it into my vehicle.
COOPER: And did you do that?
SISK: Reluctantly, and he kept yelling at me to hurry, hurry. It was quite heavy. He made me put it in the back seat where I had a child seat and put it on the top of the child seat, and then instructed me to get in. And I suggested he take my car and go, he didn't like that idea, and said that I was going to drive him. He made me get in, and he got in after shooting a little more.
COOPER: So he gets into the vehicle and then what?
SISK: Starts yelling at me to drive down the street. And basically just giving me directions, go right, go left, go straight, until we got to a red light, intersection, at which point he opened his door and started firing on the bus next to us, into the cars that were coming toward us. And that's maybe 20, 30 rounds, I don't know how many shots.
COOPER: Did he have a destination in mind, to your knowledge or was he just kind of giving you directions?
SISK: At this point he was just giving me directions. Somewhere along the ride he said this is what's going to happen, you're going to drive me to Santa Monica College. I thought perhaps that was where Obama was, I didn't know. He said, you're going to pull over, get out and put my bag on the ground and I'll let you go. I just kept saying, don't hurt me, I have children. Don't hurt me. Thank God I didn't have a child in the back seat. He shot right into where the child would have been sitting.
SISK: And I just -- I kept saying, don't hurt me, I have kids. He said how old are the kids? Calm down, you'll be all right, don't do anything stupid. Do you have a gun in the car? I said no.
COOPER: Did he seem calm or I mean, what was his demeanor?
SISK: He seemed very calm after he partially stepped out of the vehicle to shoot at the bus. He was very winded but very calm. I was hysterically shaking and he kept saying calm down. You'll be all right. Yelling at me to go through -- I was still waiting for the light to turn and he started screaming, go, go, go.
COOPER: Did he shoot at other vehicles after shooting the bus?
SISK: No. That also was reported he shot along the way. He shot at the first location. He shot at the bus, and then when we arrived at Santa Monica College, he made me get out and put the bag down and then he started shooting at people, and I jumped in the car and tried to escape.
COOPER: And he let you go.
SISK: He let me go obviously, I'm here.
SISK: I don't know. I don't know if it was because I said I had children and he bonded me with me on that I don't know. But I heard that from somewhere before, to try to make a human connection, so I tried to do that.
COOPER: Did he say anything about why he wanted to go to the college?
SISK: No, he did not. He reloaded his gun after the bus. He reloaded the machine gun. But I thought there was a bomb in the back, and I didn't think it was wise to engage him too much. I didn't know if I would say something that would anger him so I just tried to be calm and do what he asked me to do.
COOPER: And once you drove off after you dropped him off and got the bag out, did you pull over and wait for the police? What happened then?
SISK: I tried to escape from him, but the direction I was facing was right into a cement wall, I would have had to turn around and go back past him. So I entered the campus on sidewalks that were pedestrians sidewalks and drove through the campus wildly screaming at people go the other way, there's a gunman, go the other way.
I went until I couldn't drive any more, and drove into a building, but I panicked that he had a bomb. And so I decided I should get far away from there so I ran out of the building, and ran a few blocks, the whole time calling 911, I couldn't get through to the police because the lines were full.
Finally, made a connection, and explained to them what had happened and they told me to stay where I was, and at some point much later they came, and drove me around and asked me to show them where it started. And relive the steps of it.
COOPER: It's just such a horrific experience, I'm so glad you're OK. And thank you very much for talking about it.
SISK: I tried to talk with the policeman, the detective about why people are allowed to buy these guns, because I just don't understand why anyone would need a machine gun and he said someone apathetically, that that's just the way it is. That -- because the machine guns are out there, everyone else wants one to defend themselves, but it doesn't make any sense for people to be walking around with assault rifles.
COOPER: Laura, thank you so much for talking, I appreciate it.
SISK: You're welcome.
COOPER: Very lucky to be alive, incredible.
Just ahead, shocking testimony in the Michael Jackson wrongful death trial, what the promoter for the singer's comeback concert said he did and what he said to the pop star before the tour was announced.
COOPER: Coming up, find out who's on the "Ridiculist" tonight, but first, let's get caught up with some of the other stories. Isha is back with the "360 News and Business Bulletin" -- Isha.
SESAY: Anderson, at the Michael Jackson wrongful death trial, the promoter for singer's comeback concert was back on the stand. Randy Philips told the court he slapped and screamed at Jackson because he was, quote, "nerve wracked" before the announcement of his comeback tour. The AEG Live CEO said it was a miracle that, quote, "a drunk and despondent" Jackson finally appeared at the London news conference. Philips also said it was a highly charged situation days before Jackson died.
Former South African President Nelson Mandela remains in intensive care with a recurring lung infection. The 94-year-old has been in and out of the hospital in recent years. Apple CEO has unveiled a new operating system for iPhones and iPads, a new IOS 7. It radically changes the look of touch screens and Siri gets a new voice. The new system debuts this fall.
Anderson, Prince Harry wowed the crowd at a military air show in England over the weekend. The co-pilot formed some death defying stunts in an Apache helicopter, quite the daredevil.
COOPER: Isha, thanks very much.
Coming up, the "Ridiculist," find out who's on it tonight and I think you're going to like it.
COOPER: Time now for the "Ridiculist.' The television show that set the standard for all that is right in the world is back with a glorious new season. I'm speaking, of course, about "Toddlers & Tiaras." It's been a while since we discussed T&T on the "Ridiculist," but Season 6 is now underway and just when we thought we'd seen it all this happened.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm Tory. My 2-year-old daughter is going to be the one that the judges are focusing on at this pageant. Here you go.
She drinks coffee every morning. She started drinking it when she was probably nine months old. Is that yummy coffee? It's only one glass, it's not an abundance.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: It's only one glass of coffee? It's not an abundance. She was nine months old. That's old enough, right? Actually, it's one sippy cup of coffee. That's being nitpicky. This is "Toddlers & Tiaras" not PBS. The littlest coffee drinker, which I guarantee will be the name of a reality show eventually. It seems shocking that a 2- year-old is drinking coffee every day, but it's not like that's all she's drinking.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Alexa has coffee and tea.
UNIDENTIFIED CHILD: Put it in my cup.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tinker tea is coffee, soda and pixie sticks all together. It normally turns a dark green color.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Just like all you jealous hater moms out there, who are flapping in the breeze, giving your kids boring old apple juice.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She does drink tinker tea every day. What child doesn't drink juice? She hardly ever drinks juice, that's 98 percent sugar anyway.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: She's right. She's got a point. I'm thinking it has slightly less sugar than soda and sweet tea mixed with pixie sticks, but I'm no nutritionist. Pixie sticks are an integral part of the pageant circuit.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED CHILD: I had ten pixie sticks today, I still have four more.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have tried the pixie sticks, they call it pageant crack.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They don't do anything for her. A lot of pageant moms and people know what the special juice is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: And she did win. She won her own TV show. That was Honey Boo Boo, of course, in case you've been wasting your time reading books, going outside or doing other things besides watching TLC marathons. I don't know what could come next on "Toddlers & Tiaras" all I know is in season six it's still managing to break new grounds.
That does it for us. We'll see you again one hour from now for another edition of 360 at 10 p.m. Eastern. "PIERS MORGAN LIVE" starts now.