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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
NSA Leak Controversy Fallout; Sick Girl Gets Lung Transplant
Aired June 12, 2013 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everyone. It's 10:00 here on the East Coast.
Wildfires tonight burning out of control, a string of tornadoes hammering the Midwest, a big mess in Chicago, and it could get much worse very soon.
Tens of millions of Americans are now in the path of a monster storm like this one, a derecho that could be building as we speak, could have very strong winds, hurricane-level damage for mile after mile. We're watching it very closely.
Later, he came to court in handcuffs, but what happens to the three young women that Ariel Castro is accused of keeping in chains? We have exclusive insight from the woman who treated Jaycee Dugard after her 18 years in captivity.
We begin with the breaking news tonight, tornadoes, fire and a rare kind of storm now threatening one in five Americans. They are facing the possibility of a massive weather system called a derecho.
COOPER: We're going to check in with Victor Blackwell later on in the program tonight, who is on the fire lines in Colorado.
New revelations, though, to tell you about tonight from Edward Snowden, the former NSA contractor turned leaker telling a Hong Kong newspaper the agency has been hacking into computers in Hong Kong and on the Chinese mainland for years.
He says the NSA gains access to network backbones, the big data pipes of the Internet, so it doesn't have to break into individual machines. He says he will stay in Hong Kong to fight extradition back to the United States until, in his words, he's asked to leave, telling the paper he has faith in Hong Kong's rule of law.
In the meantime, Snowden says he lives in constant fear for his and his family's safety. He says he's neither a hero nor a traitor.
Now, last night on this program, New York Republican Congressman Peter King made news not by calling him a traitor, which other colleagues on both sides of the aisle have done, but for something else he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) COOPER: As far as reporters who help reveal these programs, do you think something should happen to them? Do you believe they should be punished as well?
REP. PETER KING (R-NY), HOMELAND SECURITY COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN: Actually, if they willing knew that this was classified information, I think action should be taken something of this magnitude. I know the issue of leaks, I think something on this magnitude, there is an obligation both legal, I believe, against a reporter disclosing something, which would so severely compromise national security. As a practical matter, I guess there have been in the past several years, a number of reporters who have been prosecuted. So the answer is yes to your question.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Now, later today on FOX News, he went even further when he was talking to Megyn Kelly. He said that Glenn Greenwald, who writes for "The Guardian," should be prosecuted because he -- also because he threatened to reveal the identities of CIA agents and other personnel operating around the world.
We have researched this. We found no absolutely evidence Glenn Greenwald has ever said that.
And, in fact, we are going to talk to Glenn Greenwald right now from "The Guardian."
So, Glenn, Congressman King is saying you're threatening to disclose names of CIA agents and officers and other personnel around the world and says that's a direct attack on America and that's a reason why you should be prosecuted.
I haven't found any quote where you have threatened this. And the congressman's office hasn't responded to our request for proof you actually said this. So, just for the record, have you or are you threatening to disclose the names of CIA agents and officers around the world?
GLENN GREENWALD, "THE GUARDIAN": Yes, the reason you haven't found that, Anderson, is because it doesn't exist.
I was really staggered that a United States congressman, the chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee, actually could go on national television and make up an accusation, literally fabricated out of whole cloth, namely that I have threatened to uncover the names of covert CIA agents as a way of arguing for my arrest and prosecution inside the United States for the crime of doing journalism.
I mean, it's bad enough to call for that. It's extraordinarily menacing that he did so based on a complete falsehood, the idea that I ever threatened that. I did not, nor would I ever.
COOPER: I'm assuming that Congressman King has sort of combined two different statements, one made by Snowden and one by you. Snowden has said -- and I quote -- "I had access to the full rosters of everyone working at the NSA, the entire intelligence community, and undercover assets around the world" -- end quote.
You said in an interview -- quote -- "We're going to have a lot more significant revelations that have not yet been heard over the next several weeks and months." But, again, that's not saying anything about what Peter King has said.
So are any -- just for the record, are any of the revelations that may be coming that you may release, are any of them the identities of CIA personnel or agents in the field?
And when Mr. Snowden said what it is that you quoted him as saying, he was doing so in the context of answering the accusation which I had asked him about that he was trying to harm national security. And his point was, look, if my goal were to harm American national security or to endanger Americans, there are all kinds of things I could have done that I did not do and would never do.
COOPER: Do you think King is just making that up? Do you think he's mistaken?
GREENWALD: You know, I -- the last thing I would try and do is read the mind of -- and what goes on internally in the swamp of Peter King's brain.
What I do know is that he has a history of all kinds of radical and extremist statements. He himself was a supporter of terrorism for several decades when it was done by the IRA. So I don't know if he just simply decided to completely make that up or if he hallucinated or what.
But what I do know is that the claims that he made on national television about me were utterly and completely false, and they were very serious charges that I think he ought to be held accountable for. You can't just go on national television and call for the arrest and prosecution of a journalist and tell outright falsehoods when you're doing it without consequences.
COOPER: And I should reiterate we have contacted his office since that interview that he gave today, have not heard back.
King also says that you should be prosecuted because of what you have already published, saying it puts American lives at risk. Do you believe that at all? Because I was going back and researching. When WikiLeaks released huge amounts of information, "The Guardian" and "The Times" and elsewhere, a lot of people said they had blood on their hands, Julian Assange had blood on his hands.
But then U.S. officials privately admitted in -- to people in Congress and even publicly that even though the revelations were embarrassing, were a problem, that they couldn't name anyone who had really lost their lives because of it. So when now when people are saying you have put American lives at risk, do you believe that at all?
And, Anderson, that point you just made in my opinion is really the crucial point for anybody listening to take away. Every single time the American government has things that they have done in secret exposed or revealed to the world and they are embarrassed by it, the tactic they use is to try and scare people into believing that they have to overlook what they have done. They have to trust over me American officials to exercise power in the dark, lest they be attacked, that their security and safety depend upon placing this value in political officials.
And I really think it's the supreme obligation of every journalist and every citizen when they hear an American official say, this story about us jeopardizes national security, to demand specifics, to ask what exactly it is that has jeopardized national security, because if you look at the stories that we reported, we were very careful to never disclose anything that could even conceivably harm national security.
COOPER: The flip side of that is, what do you say to those who say, look, the government needs to act in secret at certain times, that there are legitimate reasons, that there are people that want to attack this country?
GREENWALD: Yes, nobody doubts that the government has the right to keep some secrets. And we are keeping some secrets.
We're not disclosing the technical means by which the NSA spies on people, to enable other countries to replicate or evade it. We're not disclosing the names of people at whom this spying has been directed. But what the government doesn't have the right to do is to implement incredibly consequential policies that affect the world in which we live and the kind of country that we are without any accountability or transparency.
COOPER: Snowden told "The South China Morning Post" that the NSA had been hacking computers in China since 2009. He apparently showed the newspaper documents to support the claim. But the paper says it couldn't independently verify them.
Does that line up with what he told you, or can you say?
GREENWALD: Yes, he was very clear about the fact as the U.S. goes around the world threatening and warning people about the dangers of cyber-attacks, that the U.S. is actually one of the most prolific, if not the most prolific perpetrators of offensive cyber-warfare.
We published the presidential directive signed in October that lays forth a very aggressive policy of when the U.S. will use offensive cyber-attacks. It's particularly notable because it's China that the U.S. has directed those accusations at most. And yet the U.S., according to these documents and according to Snowden, is very active into hacking into Chinese research facilities, university, businesses and ones in Hong Kong as well.
COOPER: Glenn Greenwald, I appreciate talking to you. Thank you.
Let's dig deeper now on this and a possible scandal brewing at the State Department, including an alleged cover-up, with "CBS This Morning" senior correspondent John Miller.
So, John, you saw what Snowden says in that interview. And it certainly seems like he's still in Hong Kong. Does the U.S. government really have any idea where he is at this point?
JOHN MILLER, CBS NEWS: Oh, I think they have a pretty good idea where he is.
This is the kind of thing that not yesterday or the day before, but at the very beginning of this, FBI headquarters would have likely called the FBI legal attache office in Hong Kong, where they have a number of agents. They would have called their counterparts in the Hong Kong law enforcement and intelligence community and said, hey, could you acquire this guy, meaning could you put eyes on, could we have an idea where he is, and please keep eyes on while we put together some charge that might fit within your extradition treaty.
COOPER: How concerned do you think the U.S. should be that he could share what he knows, classified information, with the Chinese?
MILLER: Well, I think very concerned on some level.
Number one, Hong Kong is attached to mainland China. They have a semiautonomous government, but semi. They have an extradition deal with the United States. But this is the kind of thing that would be of high interest to the People's Republic of China. And here's an individual who is feeling vulnerable, who is looking for asylum, and who has a bag full of secrets and a head full of some more.
So, between the Chinese, the Russians, any number of places might want to talk to him and offer him comfort.
COOPER: Snowden is accusing the U.S. of hacking the Chinese. The State Department responded, saying, essentially, look, there's a difference between what China is doing to the U.S., which they say is going after economic data, financial information, what they described as cyber-attacks, and what they say the U.S. is doing to China, which they have described as surveillance and essentially going after bad guys.
Does that wash with you?
All governments hack at all other governments. That's what spy agencies do. They spy. But the Chinese is the only government, to my knowledge, that believes it is permissible not to -- you know, the U.S. -- for the Chinese -- the People's Republic of China hacking into U.S. defense Web sites and infrastructure, China is the only place that thinks it's OK to hack into commercial enterprises for commercial gain.
In other words, they will hack into all of the government things that everybody else is hacking into, but then they will hack into corporate America, and they will steal, steal technology, steal trade secrets, steal research that's half-done, steal completed projects, patented things.
China just takes the general posture when it comes to cyber- thievery that we don't have time to invent all these things. It's better to take them off of somebody's servers. That's a dirty little secret, but everybody who is in the cyber-world knows that and we have seen it come out in some of the latest reports, both from the government and from the private people who look at computers.
COOPER: Over the years, people in intelligence who I have talked to say that the amount of spying China does on the U.S. would surprise a lot of people.
MILLER: Oh, Anderson, there is a building that is filled with hundreds of People's Liberation Army, the PLA, cyber-experts. They work seven days a week, 24 hours a day. Some of them are assigned to hack into government databases. Some of them are assigned to hack into commercial things. Some of them are assigned to hack into universities.
That is a full-time job there.
COOPER: I want to switch gears also to a story that you broke a couple of days ago. It's been getting a lot of attention, a potential scandal brewing at the State Department, potential cover-ups.
What exactly did you find?
MILLER: So, what we found was that there was an inspector general's assessment of DSS, the Diplomatic Security Service.
Anderson, that's the people who are -- provide the security details for the secretary of state and ambassadors overseas. But they also do criminal investigations. But they also investigate wrongdoing among State Department employees.
And, basically, the inspector general found that there were a number of agents that they interviewed who said, well, my investigations go fine until they go towards scandal, and then they're either interfered with or cut off.
So we found accounts from DSS agents who said, I was told I couldn't interview the two main people. Another one said, I was told I only had three days to do the investigation, which was absurd. It would have required more than that.
We knew of one that said, I was assigned to investigate this ambassador overseas, and then I got an order to cease and desist and to take what I had so far and put it in a memo. So they put that in a memorandum, then in a draft of the report. But in the final report that was published, not much of that was in there. COOPER: So what happens now?
MILLER: So what happens now is that the inspector general has said let's review these cases, and they have brought in to answer the State Department's concern, which is these are inspectors who were doing basically a management assessment on whether a division is running right.
So they said they can't really assess whether a criminal investigation is going correctly. So they brought in professional investigators from other agencies, they have hired them on, and they have said, review these cases and a few more, and give us an assessment, was there undue influence, was there interference, was there tampering, were things squashed or swept under the rug?
COOPER: It's a fascinating story. John Miller, John, thanks.
COOPER: We're going to take a short break.
Let me know what you think about what Representative Peter King said about Glenn Greenwald and the response from Glenn tonight. Follow me on Twitter at @AndersonCooper.
Just ahead, breaking news on a little girl the country has taken to heart; 10-year-old Sarah Murnaghan finally has what she fought so hard to get, new lungs. She is out of surgery. We will have the latest on her condition ahead.
Plus, an update on the other breaking story tonight, the growing wildfires in Colorado.
COOPER: Welcome back.
We have some more breaking news to report tonight; 10-year-old Sarah Murnaghan has new lungs. Just minutes ago, we got word that her transplant surgeons have completed the operation. A family spokeswoman said the new lungs came from an adult donor.
As you may know, we have been following Sarah's story closely. Her parents challenged the policy that makes it nearly impossible for children younger than 12 from getting adult donor lungs, no matter how sick the child is. It's a life-and-death issue because pediatric donor lungs are so rare.
Last week, a federal judge intervened and Sarah was put on the adult waiting list. And when Sarah heard about the ruling, she cheered. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: It has been a very tough battle for this little girl. She has cystic fibrosis. And in recent months, her condition declined sharply, got even worse over the weekend.
But earlier today, the call her family has waited so long for finally came.
Jason Carroll joins me now from Philadelphia.
You're outside the hospital where Sarah just got out of the surgery. What do you know about how things went?
JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I can tell you that her father and mother have seen her and that she seems to be doing remarkably well.
We're hearing that she's in good condition. She's heavily sedated, as you can imagine. She's still intubated. We're hearing that tube will not come out of her throat for another 48 hours or so. The surgery, Anderson, lasted about six hours. And we're told through a family spokesperson that doctors had no special challenges in resizing the lung to fit into Sarah's chest.
And just before we went to air, Anderson, we got a bit of a statement here from the family. I will read it in part to you because it does provide a little bit more detail.
It says: "Sarah is in the process of getting settled in the ICU and now her recovery begins. It will be a long road, but we're not going for easy. We're going for possible. And an organ donor has made this possible for her."
Obviously, she still has a long road ahead of her. There is always the risk of infection and the organ being rejected, but she took a very major step today -- Anderson.
COOPER: So, you spoke to the family before the surgery, correct?
CARROLL: Yes, yes.
And, as you can imagine, at that point, their emotions were sort of all over the place. You know, they had found out last night that the donor had come in. And when -- once Sarah was in surgery, I asked if we could just speak just a little bit about what they were feeling, and the one point they wanted to make was about the person who made this day possible.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JANET MURNAGHAN, MOTHER OF SARAH MURNAGHAN: They don't tell you anything. I mean, but that donor is her hero, our hero of this story. But she wouldn't have had access to that hero if it weren't for the change.
This is a lobar transplant. This is an adult donor. This is lungs that she wouldn't have had the opportunity to have access to just two weeks ago.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARROLL: And the other point she wanted to make was not just this person was a hero, but they are hoping that there will be a change for the system to help children, not just Sarah, but the other child that is here, Javier Acosta, who you know of, Anderson, that 11- year-old who is also waiting for a lung transplant, and other children as well, now that there has been a change to the national policy -- Anderson.
COOPER: Yes, I think a lot of people didn't realize about these different lists. Jason, appreciate that.
We certainly wish Sarah and her family the best.
She was a very sick little girl going into today's surgery. She has a challenging road ahead, as Jason said.
Our chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, joins us now.
So, a lung transplant, how complex and difficult a surgery is that and how difficult is the recovery?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the operation, it can depend, as you just heard from her mom there.
This was what's known as a lobar transplant. So instead of transplanting the whole adult lung, they took specific lobes of the lung. And this is usually just because of a size issue. So you take particular lobes of the lung and try and size them and make them fit. And you heard in the statement there that that part of the operation went pretty smoothly.
From sort of beginning of her operation to the end, it was about six hours, so that's pretty typical, in terms of the length of these operations. So it's a -- it sounds like that went straightforward. Her recovery over the next couple of days, she is going to have the breathing tube in. You just heard that again.
Over the longer run, you remember this is a girl who still has cystic fibrosis, just underwent this big operation, is now going to need medications to suppress her immune system so she does not develop infections and reject her lungs in the future. There are several phases to her recovery, Anderson.
COOPER: We have got a Digital Dashboard question from Facebook. Cathy asks, "Is it true that she will require another transplant in the future since adult lungs will not grow as she grows?"
GUPTA: The bigger concern, Cathy, is more the concern about rejection. That might be necessitating a future transplant.
Sometimes, even these lungs, even though it's just the lobe of the lung, they can expand to a certain extent. You remember, Anderson, not too long ago, we were talking about the new pope and how he is living without a lobe of his lung. So it is possible that people can live with a smaller lung, but the larger concern for Sarah is the concern about rejection of these lungs and that could possibly lead to another transplant.
COOPER: Can you just explain why there are different lists? Is there is a good reason behind that?
GUPTA: Well, I think a lot of this is -- ideally, what you are trying to do is create situations where the people who need the transplants the most are also matched up with people who are going to benefit the most from those transplants.
That may sound rather obvious, but it's not always necessarily the sickest people in general. It's people who are going to benefit the most from these transplants. When it comes to kids and lung transplants, they are just not that common. They don't happen very often, a couple hundred over the last several years, for example.
They had this I guess somewhat arbitrary cutoff of 12 years old, saying above that they can be on the adult list, and below that, I think there is just not enough data for people under the age of 12.
COOPER: All right. Sanjay, appreciate it. Thanks.
Again, as I said, we wish Sarah and her family the best.
As always, you can find a lot more on Sarah's condition and her story at CNN.com.
We have more breaking news tonight. We're live out West. Fire, plus winds, equals a state of emergency. One fire there is now growing larger, moving in two directions at once. We will take you to the fire lines.
Also, later, Ariel Castro pleading not guilty to holding three young women captive for years. Hard to imagine what his alleged victims are going through. Tonight, we are going to be joined by a therapist who knows all too well. She helped treat Jaycee Dugard after her captivity.
We will talk to her ahead.
COOPER: More breaking news now, several wildfires burning in Colorado, two not far from Colorado Springs doing serious damage. We just learned that one of them has burned down close to 100 homes and is threatening many more. Colorado's governor declared a disaster emergency. The evacuation zone is growing, and it's key the winds have not stopped gusting.
Victor Blackwell is on the fire line; joins us now with the latest. What is the latest, Victor?
VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the latest from this area of El Paso County is that the number of homes damaged, up to 97. Ninety-two of them a total loss. And 8,000 acres burned.
Now, we just got an updated number, also, about the people affected by this mandatory evacuation that grew overnight and has grown throughout the day. Now 10,000 people impacted by that, 150 commercial entities.
And I want to show you what we're seeing all day, this cloud of white grayish ash but occasionally with these puffs of dark smoke, meaning something else, something unnatural is burning, many of them homes.
Many of the people who have been evacuated are either in Red Cross shelters, in hotels here in town. I can tell you it's very difficult to get a room, or they are with friends and family -- Anderson.
COOPER: And I know, as you said, of course, more evacuations today. Even a prison was evacuated, right?
BLACKWELL: Yes, a prison was evacuated, but we have to start this with telling you that there are five fires here in Colorado. This is the Black Forest Fire. There are three to the north and one about 55 miles southwest in Canyon City. That is the Royal Gorge Fire. And there is the Centennial Corrections facility near that.
As a precaution, they evacuated the prison; 905 low to medium security inmates, many of them special needs, were sent to other facilities overnight. All of them safe -- Anderson.
COOPER: And in terms of firefighters, do they have enough personnel on the ground?
BLACKWELL: Well, the exact number we're getting from the sheriff, 487, but there are more people coming tomorrow and throughout the week to try to control this.
Also, we know that nearby pilots from Ft. Carson are working on this and the National Guard here working also in a support role, blocking roads. There are a lot of people driving around trying to get photographs or to check on their homes to find out if their home is still standing.
COOPER: Yes. Incredible to see that home burn right there. Victor, stay safe. Appreciate it. Victor Blackwell reporting for us.
There's a lot more happening tonight. Randi is here with a "360 Bulletin" -- Randi.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, the James "Whitey" Bulger trial got underway today in Boston. In opening statements, prosecutors said the legendary mob boss was a hands-on killer. He's accused of 19 murders and other charges. Bulger denies the charges and being an FBI informant. The 83-year-old was captured two years ago after 16 years on the run.
Police in Turkey again used tear gas in clashes with protesters in Ankara today. But the situation does not seem to be as violent as last night in the capital and in Istanbul. A Turkish official says the government will not accept protests to continue forever and urging demonstrators to leave the park where anti-government protests began two weeks ago.
FEMA is denying a request to declare the town of West Texas a major disaster area after that massive explosion at a fertilizer plant. The decision means the city can't get extra federal money. Texas officials accuse President Obama of betraying his promise to help the city rebuild. Fifteen people died; dozens of homes were left in ruins after that April incident.
The world's tallest twisted tower was inaugurated in Dubai today. The tower is just over 1,000 feet tall and has 75 floors of 495 apartments.
And an Australian woman's attempt to be the first person to swim from Cuba to Florida without a shark cage is over. Chloe McCardel ended the attempt after just 11 hours due to a severely debilitating jellyfish sting -- Anderson.
COOPER: Randi, thanks very much.
Accused kidnapper and rapist Ariel Castro was back in court today. What happened at his arraignment? We'll tell you about it ahead. Plus, we're going to talk to a therapist who helped kidnapping victim Jaycee Dugard about what the women freed from Castro's home might be dealing with.
COOPER: Welcome back. Ariel Castro was arraigned today in a Cleveland courtroom. He didn't say a word. His lawyers entered a non-guilty plea. Castro, as you know, was indicted last week on 329 counts. And today, his attorneys said some of those charges cannot be disputed.
The 52-year-old former school bus driver is accused of rape, murder, holding three women captive in his home for a decade. Amanda Berry, Gina DeJesus, and Michelle Knight. They were freed, you may remember, last month after one of them made a break and called to a neighbor for help.
CNN's Pamela Brown was in the courtroom and joins us now.
So what exactly was it like in the court today? I mean, he didn't say anything. How did he appear?
PAMELA BROWN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You're right, Anderson. He didn't say anything at all. In fact, he walked in. He looked despondent, devoid of emotion. He kept his head down the entire time. He didn't make eye contact with anyone: not his attorneys, not the judge.
In fact, Anderson, it appeared that he had his eyes closed during the entire arraignment. His attorneys entered a plea on his -- on his behalf, and as you said, he didn't say anything at all. It was a very quick arraignment. It only lasted about a minute.
COOPER: The three women, obviously, had asked for privacy, and I think reporter, it seems like, have given it to them. You did speak to the victims' personal attorney. What did he tell you?
BROWN: I did. I just spoke to him a little bit ago, Anderson. Jim Wooley is his name, and he said that the women want this to be over, and they want it to be over quickly. He said they have no desire to testify in the trial, and he said that at this point no one wants this to go to trial.
The ball is in the prosecution's court. Pressure is mounting on the prosecution to negotiate a plea deal and essentially take that aggravated murder charge and, obviously, the death penalty off the table so that a deal can be negotiated.
COOPER: So it sounds like that lawyer is saying a plea deal would be acceptable to -- to his clients?
BROWN: Absolutely. The attorneys made it clear -- the women's attorney made it clear that he wants a plea deal to be reached and today, the defense attorney for Ariel Castro made it clear that he wants a plea deal to be negotiated.
So as I said, the ball is really in the prosecution's court, and the prosecution also has a vested interest for a deal to be reached. Prosecution wants what's best for these victims. The prosecution wants to protect the victims, but at the same time it's a balancing act. The prosecution wants to make sure justice is served and that Ariel Castro faces the maximum penalty.
And also, Anderson, I spoke to legal experts here, and we're learning that it will be difficult for the prosecution to pursue the death penalty for the aggravated murder charge. There's really no legal precedent here.
And also, the prosecution has to have both forensic and medical evidence to show that not only Michelle Knight was pregnant in that time frame but also that Castro caused the termination of her pregnancy, and that's a pretty tall order there.
COOPER: All right. Pamela, appreciate the update.
It's impossible for most of us or really for anyone to imagine what Amanda Berry, Gina DeJesus, and Michelle Knight went through and are going through trying to reclaim their lives.
Jaycee Dugard certainly knows, as well. She was kidnapped when she was just 11 years old. She was held by her captors for 18 years, forced to live in a hidden compound of tarps and sheds. She gave birth to two kids during that time. She was rescued in 2009.
Today she's in her 30s, and she's now helping other victims through the foundation that she's created. Her therapist, Rebecca Bailey, who guided Dugard through that transition that followed the rescue, helping her to reconnect with her family, help her rebuild her life. She's the author of a new book, called "Safe Kids, Smart Parents" and has done groundbreaking research on the issues that kidnapping and other trauma victims face. Very pleased that she joins me. Thanks very much for being with us.
I talked to Shawn Hornbeck, somebody who was taken as a child and a short time after these women were released. And one of the things he said to me is that this is something that happened to him. It's not who he is, and he does not want to be defined by -- by what somebody else did to him. Is that something you hear a lot from victims?
REBECCA BAILEY, FAMILY PSYCHOLOGIST: Absolutely. And it's such a healthy response, because it's time, for example, these young women. I don't want to speculate too much on what their situation is, but they've given enough time to that man, and it's time for them to be able to move forward. So yes, yes, absolutely.
COOPER: How do you -- and again, I'm not a big fan of speculation, either, so -- but in general how do you help somebody move forward? I mean, the process of trusting, of reintegrating with the family? I mean there's so many different aspects.
BAILEY: You know, so many of the responses to that sound so simplistic, because it really is one step at a time. One step at a time slowly. Allow them to guide you in the process. We know from a Department of Justice study that the national center did back with them back in 1991 that there's such a variety of what families need. There's some givens, including privacy like these families are getting, but step at a time.
COOPER: There's also, I mean, the range of emotions that somebody goes through. I mean, anger to -- I would imagine anger to certainly their captor but also to their families, maybe, in some cases and -- I mean, is talking about -- I've seen in different studies some say, you know, talking about something can help it. But then there's others who say it sort of relives the trauma. Should families kind of hold back and just let the person talk on their own time?
BAILEY: Well, it's sort of a twofold answer. One is it -- one of the ways that we work with people is using animal therapy with a program that I have because...
COOPER: Horses and...
BAILEY: Horses and dogs and -- because part of it is being able to get people out of the words, because some people do need to talk about it, some people don't.
But the most important thing you also said was about families and the individual difference. And every time I talk, I always want to bring it back to the siblings, because the siblings in these families are affected as much as the central victim in very, very different ways. So I love that you're acknowledging the range of differences.
So we really need to keep that in mind when we're looking, because I don't know all the parties and families of these victims. But I know that they've all been affected and will have different responses from each other.
COOPER: And it is incredible to me, and I've seen this time and time again, what people can survive and what they can rebuild a life from.
BAILEY: And that's why I'm out, and that's why I'm out here doing this. This is why I wrote this book with my sister based on the incredible strength that Terry Probyn and Jaycee Dugard demonstrated and so that it never, ever happens again.
But I am so on the band wagon of resiliency and flexibility and encouraging and helping people to teach their children to be flexible and resilient.
COOPER: Can -- you can teach resilience?
BAILEY: I absolutely believe it. There is some studies that talk about their resiliency or flexibility gene, but I absolutely believe it.
There's a man in New York named George Benan (ph) that has done a lot of studies also on the ability of being able to develop -- help develop that in people. You've got to listen to the individual differences of the people in front of you and the needs when you work with any sort of trauma.
COOPER: I know you've probably been asked this a million times, and it's a question that always gets asked. And I've heard a lot of answers to it. And yet, people still don't understand it and understandably so; it's a complicated thing.
What makes somebody stay in a situation that maybe they have an opportunity at times to get out of? I mean, what is it?
BAILEY: That's another -- you're hitting questions true to my heart. And we have -- the press has called it Stockholm Syndrome.
BAILEY: There are variables that you often see across the board. I think frankly, there's about four or five that frequently show up. We like to -- and when I see we, those of us that work in the trenches with these guys and like to call it adaptation process.
COOPER: Adaptation process.
BAILEY: Adaptation process, because you adapt to survive. And the human spirit is incredibly strong, and the human will to -- and I get so passionate, so excuse me.
COOPER: That's all right.
BAILEY: The human will to live and go through an adverse situation is such an incredible, incredible innate... COOPER: It's something we've seen in the Holocaust. In any situation, it's a desire to survive.
BAILEY: You know, and when you talk to Jaycee, who has taught me this one thing. She -- when we talk about her story, and she'll say, "Yes, but what about the prisoner of war, or what about Nelson Mandela." And it's true. And so we call it adaptation, because you have to adapt.
It's actually incredibly condescending to assume that these people fall in love with their captors. In fact, it's one of the most condescending thing that you can do.
COOPER: But the -- to me, that's an important thing, the idea that you can survive pretty much anything, given the right circumstances, given the right makeup, and that's an empowering thing.
BAILEY: And that's what this book -- it's "Safe Kids, Smart Parents." What we're trying to say is, when something horrible like a non-familial abduction happens, which is rare, but teaching your kids how to deal with all sorts of situations like, sorry, icky coach -- icky coaches, that's the word I use. Folks like -- or situations, give them the skills to be able to use critical thinking, problem solving to get out of a situation.
COOPER: Yes. Rebecca Bailey, thank you very much. It's really very interesting. Appreciate it.
Coming up, the "360 follow" on the Pennsylvania mom that disappeared 11 years ago, leaving her family behind. Remember, she resurfaced in Florida last month. An update on what's happening to Brenda Heist. Next.
COOPER: "RidicuList" is coming up. Find out who's on it tonight, but first, Randi is back with the "360 Bulletin" -- Randi.
KAYE: Anderson, Arizona Republican Senator Jeff Flake has apologized for his son's behavior online. Blake's teenage son posted racist, homophobic, and anti-Semitic comments on Twitter and gaming sites. The senator calls the language unacceptable.
The U.S. is easing economic sanctions in areas of Syria controlled by opposition fighters. U.S. companies can now seek approval from the U.S. State Department to provide certain items, such as technology for water and oil production.
Meanwhile, the family of Syrian activist Zaidoun al-Zoabi says his brother was released today from a government prison. He'd been held since December. Zaidoun is still being detained.
A "360 Follow." Brenda Heist, the Pennsylvania mom missing for 11 years, has been sentenced to nearly a year in Florida jail for violating probation on a traffic violation. In 2002, after dropping her children off at school, she hitchhiked to Florida with strangers. And high above the streets of Manhattan today, two workers were rescued after their scaffolding broke. The two men were trapped for more than an hour before firefighters cut a hole in a window to get them inside. That is something there, as you can see there, Anderson. Incredible they're both OK. No injuries, just maybe a little fear of heights.
COOPER: Yes. Good news. Randi, thanks.
"The RidicuList" is next.
COOPER: Time now for "The RidicuList."
So the other night on 360, we told you the actor who plays Chewbacca in the "Star Wars" movies was briefly detained by the TSA at the Denver Airport because of his cane, a custom-made work of art that looks like a light saber. Isha was telling the story, and then this happened.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ISHA SESAY, HLN ANCHOR: The TSA says the unusual weight of the cane got an officer's attention but that the passenger and the light saber cane were cleared to travel within five minutes.
I always wanted a light saber.
COOPER: (MAKING WOOKIEE SOUND)
Was that your Chewbacca?
SESAY: (MAKING DOLPHIN-LIKE SOUND)
No? Just give me the light saber.
COOPER: Have you ever seen "Star Wars?"
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: OK. So my Chewbacca imitation was bad. Hers was the worst Chewbacca imitation ever.
Just for comparison, this is what Chewbacca actually sounds like.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETER MAYHEW, ACTOR: (MAKING WOOKIEE SOUND)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Let's hear Isha again.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SESAY: (MAKING DOLPHIN-LIKE SOUND)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Pitiful. I happen to think that mine was, I mean, maybe a little more realistic.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: (MAKING WOOKIEE SOUND)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Pretty lame. Look, it's lame. I would have said that Isha's Chewbacca is lacking because of her British accent, but Peter Mayhew, the actor who plays Chewbacca, was actually born in England. Also like Isha, he's over seven feet tall. Didn't know that about Isha, did you? Very tall.
He and his wife on CNN's "STARTING POINT" talking about the airport incident.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAYHEW: I'm a big guy. Therefore, I need a heavy cane.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "You do know you just told Chewbacca he can't have his life saber cane?" At which time I think her eyes maybe got a little big. I don't know.
Our job is to see to it that people have a good time.
MAYHEW: That's what we're here for.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And if the Wookiee arrives in a foul mood, nobody is going to have a good time. I promise.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Now, the Mayhews took everything in stride. They left everyone with a rally nice message.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Travel in peace.
MAYHEW: (MAKING WOOKIEE NOISES) Travel in peace.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In Wookiee-ese.
MAYHEW: In Wookiee-ese.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Leave it to the master. That is the sound of the real Chewbacca.
You know what? Just for laughs, let's hear Isha again.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SESAY: (MAKING DOLPHIN-LIKE NOISE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Sad. Got to work on your Wookiee, Isha. Keep practicing and may the force be with you on "The RidicuList."
And that's it for us. Thanks for watching. "ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starts now.