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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Violence in Egypt; Kidnapping Victim Speaks Out
Aired August 14, 2013 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everyone.
Tonight, we have breaking news, a massacre in Egypt and a bloody mess for Washington.
Later tonight, Hannah Anderson tells her story, the story of her abduction, and why she's glad the man who kidnapped her, a former close family friend, is dead.
Also, stop and frisk, the controversy continues as New York and Chicago start a war of words continues over a key question. Is it just plain old good policing or old-fashioned racial profiling? We will call in Philadelphia's police chief to referee.
We begin with breaking news, the war, yes, the war being fought tonight on the streets of Egypt and the huge problem it's become for the Obama administration. At this hour, a state of emergency is in effect across the country and at least 278 people, mostly opposition members most in Cairo, are dead.
This is new video of Egyptian security forces raiding one of two opposition camps there. They moved in this morning accompanied by tear gas and live ammunition. You can hear shooting in the background as troops kick a wounded man around. Said a protester who escaped one of the two camps, it's an open war.
The raids touching off running battles, new video as well of Muslim Brotherhood fighters pushing an armored personnel carrier off the 6th of October Bridge. You will remember the bridge as one of rallying points leading into Tahrir Square during the 2011 uprising. Unlike then, the images coming in, the images you are seeing now reflect precious little inspiration, but plenty of desperation.
Muslim Brotherhood supporters have been living in these camps for the last month-and-a-half, ever since the military ousted Egypt's elected president, Mohammed Morsy, their frustration building. The ruling military junta making it clear for weeks now they wanted them out. So when the clearing of the camps started this morning, it came as no surprise. But it did mean danger for anyone close by.
ARWA DAMON, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: For the Muslim Brotherhood, it is very much an existential battle for some of those hard-core supporters. We will see them out there continuously determined. But then at the same time, you have...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Egyptian security forces are clearly using live ammunition. They are firing into the side streets. There are front-line positions between protesters, security forces all over Cairo. And this one looks like it's about to get very ugly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, it has Secretary of State Kerry today calling events deplorable. Egyptian Vice President of Foreign Affairs and former top diplomat Mohamed ElBaradei has turned in his resignation. The Obama administration now considering off next month's big military exercises with Egypt, with questions growing about the president's handling not just of this chapter, but the entire saga in Egypt.
Arwa Damon, who you saw just a moment ago with guns going off around her, she joins us tonight.
Arwa, it's the middle of the night there, obviously comparatively quiet to earlier today. What have you seen and heard?
DAMON: Well, curfew is full on in effect. It's quite odd how eerily quiet the streets have been tonight, especially compared to everything we saw during the day.
The Egyptian security forces not having to deal with the Morsy supporters from those two main sit-in sites, but really multiple front lines at the same time. We saw Morsy supporters trying to gather, break through the riot police's ranks. We also saw them actually taking over another square in Cairo, where they were as of tonight as well when we returned back to that location, digging in there, setting up these makeshift barricades once again, field hospitals, readying themselves for even more clashes.
The other issue here too is that the fighting that we're seeing taking place, the violence, it's not just clashes that are breaking out between those who support and oppose President Morsy and the security forces. You're also seeing clashes between Morsy supporters and residents in various neighborhoods where these sit-ins, the marches are taking place.
Additionally to all of this, neighborhood watch, young men in various neighborhoods taking batons, bats, setting up checkpoints, searching vehicles. It's a very unpredictable situation right now, especially here in the capital, Cairo.
COOPER: Right now, you have basically sort of both sides pointing fingers at each other for the violence. Based on what you saw, what can you report on who is responsible for the deaths?
DAMON: Well, the vast majority of over around 250 deaths is the Mohammed Morsy supporters.
The security forces, the government is saying that their initial intent was simply to lay siege to these two sit-in sites, to allow those who were there to be able to exit, but that they were going to prevent anyone from entering. They are claiming that they were shot at first by these demonstrators and then the situation rapidly escalating from there.
People who were at these demonstration sites saying that these security forces barely issuing any warning whatsoever, moving in immediately beginning to fire intense volleys of tear gas and live ammunition as well. Anderson, we did not see any of these demonstrators carrying weapons.
That's not to say they weren't, however. There are more than 40 people who were killed, members of the Egyptian police force in all of this. So presumably there were people who were armed and who were shooting at them, the cause of those deaths. But this is very much a blame game at this stage. The great concern though is because these demonstrators are still taking to the streets, yes, in lesser numbers than we were seeing in the two sit-ins, but they are still effectively taking to the streets. So the concern is that these clashes are only going to be continuing.
COOPER: Arwa, stay there.
I want to bring in our Ivan Watson, who happens to be here in New York.
You have obviously spent a lot of time in Egypt over the last couple years and you have seen a lot of this firsthand. Where does this go from here? Because the Muslim Brotherhood is not going away. The Muslim Brotherhood was outlawed for decades and remained. Obviously it's on its heels right now but they're not going away.
IVAN WATSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That is what is so frightening here. What does the military want the endgame to be?
Do they expect the Islamists in Egypt will just simply disappear? If this was such a tenacious organization that survived torture and imprisonment in previous decades, they're not going to disappear. The experiment of democracy in Egypt that we kind of saw the beginnings of in 2011, I think it's very clear when you see this carnage and this death toll that it's over.
The fear is in the Sinai right now of Egypt, on the border with Israel. There are jihadis, there are believed to be al Qaeda-linked groups that are waging open insurgency against Egyptian security forces. There have been more deaths there in the last couple of days and could that spread now? You have closed the door to the democratic process to the preeminent Islamist political force in Egypt.
So what other avenue does it have?
COOPER: And, Arwa, the situation -- we don't have Arwa anymore.
But the situation Arwa was describing, now you have these neighborhood groups, which is something we saw back in 2011, it just seems to be fracturing more and more into disparate groups all sort of taking the law into their own hands.
WATSON: It's very frightening when you start to see the cycle of violence and the fabric of society starting to fray.
That was kind of knit together in 2011 after there was a crime spree and people were very worried and they took charge of protecting their own neighborhoods and things like that. But that was followed by an historic period of elections and things that had Egyptians very excited. They got the freedom to vote.
How are you going to follow this crackdown when you have had hundreds killed not only today, but in previous bouts of violence?
COOPER: And does the Muslim Brotherhood have a roll in the elections? And are they allowed to run again?
WATSON: How can they? The president is imprisoned, we don't where, for six weeks, the first democratically elected president of Egypt. Most of the leadership seems to be under arrest and now this carnage.
COOPER: We have Arwa back.
Arwa, the situation you described, these neighborhood groups, it does seem what you're describing a situation which is just fracturing by the hour, almost.
DAMON: It does really feel as if one is slowly beginning to watch the unraveling of society.
I have been referring to it right there. One also needs to go back and look at how we reached this point in time. On June 30, there were an unprecedented number of Egyptians that took to the streets demanding the resignation of former President Mohammed Morsy, calling for early elections. That then gave the military the support it believed it needed to go in and oust former President Mohammed Morsy.
Since then, tensions in Egypt have only been increasing, society, the population growing more polarized in these pro- and anti-Morsy camps. Additionally to all of this, and this is also very disturbing as well, some of the violence we saw today, mobs of Morsy supporters attacking police stations, but also attacking a number of churches across the country as well.
COOPER: And, Arwa and Ivan, I want to extend the discussion. I want to bring in Daily Beast and "Newsweek" correspondent Peter Beinart. He's editor of Daily Beast's OpenZion.com blog and is usually a defender of the administration, but now not so much on this case, also national security analyst Fran Townsend. Fran, as you know, serves on the and CIA and Department of Homeland Security external advisory boards.
Fran, what is your sense of where this goes?
FRANCES TOWNSEND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CONTRIBUTOR: Look, clearly they declared a state of emergency because they expect that this violence will continue. When
You see the fatalities and injuries in the numbers we have seen, there's been reports of over 900 injured in addition to the deaths we reported. You have got to expect that this is not just simply going to stop. The security services have made perfectly clear their willingness to revert to brutality and violence and the pictures speak for themselves. But if you want to move to the democratic society that Ivan and Arwa have both spoken about, you have to be inclusive.
We have got -- in this country, there are plenty of groups who stand or ideals that the majority of the population don't believe in, but they can be heard, they can be safe and secure in raising their voices, and they can run for public office. We choose not to elect people whose ideals we disagree with. But Egypt is going to have to work its way to a process. The military can't sideline them and expect them not to revert to violent activity in the streets.
COOPER: Peter, we talk about what Egypt can do. Is there much that the U.S. actually can do here? Obviously, the U.S. gives a lot of aid, but it sounds like at this point the generals kind of don't even care whether that continues or not, that that aid can be replaced by Saudi Arabia or somewhere else.
PETER BEINART, THE DAILY BEAST: Right. At this point, it's hard to see how much the U.S. can do very much.
I think the real question historians will be looking at for many, many years is would it have made a difference at the moment of the coup, when there was still a possibility of restoring Morsy or forcing the military not to go down this path, if the U.S. had then at that point said we're cutting off aid, taken a really blunt, unequivocal stance, instead of what the Obama administration did, which was kind of trying the have it both ways, essentially saying we're not going to cut off aid. We accept that Morsy probably won't come back, but still try to be restrained.
COOPER: You used the word coup. The administration has not used that word.
BEINART: Right. They didn't want to use the word coup because it would have required cutting off aid.
In retrospect, and obviously hindsight is always 20/20 -- in hindsight, they were too nuanced. They were trying to split the difference and their message didn't get through. I think at that moment, perhaps the U.S. could have stopped the military. We don't know. But it would have had a better chance than it does now.
COOPER: Fran, all along in all of this, how much impact do you think the U.S. really could have had? Even in the overthrow of Mubarak, there were many people who criticized the Obama administration for not supporting Mubarak longer.
You and I were there. The sense on the street was, it didn't mad what the U.S. was going to do. Events on the ground in Egypt are happening at a pace that is irregardless of what the United States is doing.
TOWNSEND: That's right.
And you mentioned Saudi Arabia, but this is an instance where Egypt is such a powerful force in the Arab world, and with its Arab allies. This is a place where actually our Arab allies can perhaps be more influential than we can. I think if it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, it's a duck. This is a coup. We can debate why the administration didn't use it.
I happen to agree with Peter. They don't use it because of the consequences of that, but it was clearly a coup. The fact is though the problem with cutting off aid, you have to play the chess game of moving the pieces down the board. If we removed ourselves and removed the aid, someone who has a different foreign policy agenda might have filled that gap, so Russia or Qatar or others...
COOPER: But look at Saudi Arabia. Talk about Saudi Arabia could have an impact. Saudi Arabia doesn't want a democratic Egypt, do they? They don't want that example of democracy in the Middle East.
BEINART: But I think what Fran was saying, correctly, is there ultimately will be no stability without the Islamists having the opportunity to express themselves politically.
And because the U.S. didn't -- the U.S. was equivocal, and the Gulf states, Saudi Arabia and others, came down very strongly on behalf of the people, of the military leading this coup, and now we have the possibility of a Syria-like situation, in which we have got different regional actors, Turkey on behalf of the Islamist Brotherhood, the Gulf states on the other, playing it out with Egypt as their battlefield like Syria.
COOPER: Peter, do you see this going to a wider conflict? Do you see this -- or at least erupting larger within Egypt?
BEINART: You don't have the same sectarian divisions exactly, although I think the question of the Copts is a very, very concerning one.
But I do think you have the possibility of the most powerful country in the Middle East now being essentially an open battlefield in which you could imagine people starting to arm elements of the Muslim Brotherhood. They have supporters all over the Middle East. That is a truly, truly frightening... (CROSSTALK)
TOWNSEND: Yes. I think there's a real -- I think the Saudis want stability. They didn't want to see Morsy as a member of the Muslim Brotherhood in power. So there are these regional actors who are playing their through own agendas. I think that fuels further conflict.
COOPER: It's dangerous days.
Thank you so much, Peter, Fran, Ivan, Arwa as well.
Arwa, please stay safe.
Let us know what you think. Follow me on Twitter @AndersonCooper.
Next, a big city African-American police chief on why, controversial or not, his department uses stop and frisk.
And later, Hannah Anderson opens up online about her captivity and what she thinks of the killer who kidnapped her.
COOPER: "Keeping Them Honest" tonight on stop and frisk, New York's controversial policy of detaining and searching hundreds of people, mostly innocent people, every day in hopes of reducing crime.
On Monday, a federal judge, calling it discriminatory, put limits on it. A New York police officer reacted today, telling "The New York Post" -- quote -- "Welcome to Chicago," he said, meaning say goodbye to New York's plummeting murder rate.
"If that's what the judge wants, this officer said, "crime is going to go up." The Chicago P.D. taking sharp exception, a spokesman saying -- quote -- "We had significantly less crime, significantly fewer shootings and fewer murders of any year since 1965, without imposing on the right of our residents."
So who's right? And can you operate a stop and frisk program without discriminating, alienating communities you have both sworn to protect and whose help you need to do it?
Let's talk about it with Philadelphia Police Commissioner Charles Ramsey, whose department uses a version of stop and frisk, also conservative blogger Crystal Wright and criminal defense attorney Mark Geragos.
Commissioner Ramsey, your city actually faced a similar situation as New York, litigation that led to mandated reforms. Some, including New York's Mayor Michael Bloomberg have pointed to crime rates going up as a result of those reforms. When the mayor was pressed on this issue last year, he said -- quote -- "Why would any rational person want to trade what we have here for the situation in Philadelphia? More murders, higher crime." To that, you say what?
CHARLES RAMSEY, PHILADELPHIA POLICE CHIEF: Well, to that, I say he's wrong.
Our murders are actually down 30 percent this year, shootings down 18 percent. Overall crime is down significantly in Philadelphia. We did enter into an agreement. I think in the long run it's going to be for the betterment of the department.
COOPER: Explain that. Does stop and frisk work?
RAMSEY: Well, it's not a question of just if it works. Does it work? Yes.
But we have to be careful as police to make sure that whatever we do, we do within constitutional guidelines. We can't just sacrifice all constitutional rights in order to impact crime. I think you can do both. I think you can impact crime and do so within constitutional guidelines. Stop, question and frisk is a valuable tool. But it has to be done correctly.
COOPER: There are a lot of people, though, who say, look, this is not racial profiling. This is going where crime is. To that you say what?
RAMSEY: Well, it is going where crime is, but you still need reasonable suspicion before you can temporarily detain a person for investigative purposes.
You also have to have some reasonable belief that a person is armed and dangerous before you conduct a frisk. It's pretty clear, and I think we really need to focus on our training for officers. But we also need to make sure we have in place audits to make sure that they're doing it correctly. We do have to record all stops in Philadelphia. We do have a multilayered approach toward auditing these stops to make sure that they're being done properly.
In the long run, I think it's better for the community, it's better for the department and it's better for better for everybody concerned.
COOPER: Crystal, you support what New York has been doing, but a vast majority of the people who are stopped and frisked are released. They have done nothing wrong.
CRYSTAL WRIGHT, CONSERVATIVE COLUMNIST: I agree with Commissioner Ramsey. We have to go where the crime is, and the crime is overwhelmingly in New York City in predominantly black neighborhoods. And the crime that is being committed in New York City is overwhelmingly done by minorities, particularly black males.
This is an inconvenient truth, but it's a reality. Why would you stop somebody that is like a Norwegian tourist when they're not committing the crime? And at the end of the day, I also agree with Commissioner Ramsey. We need to honor the Constitution, the Fourth Amendment against unreasonable search.
But the fact is, police officers under the Fourth Amendment have the right to reasonable searches. Do we need to revisit the program periodically on how we train officers? Sure. But I also -- there's one thing I want to disagree with the commissioner on, and that is from what I have read, your crime rate is going up.
Crimes have gone increased in Philadelphia compared to last year before you engaged in this settlement. You may disagree with me on this, but from what I see that's happening in Philadelphia, we have taken the politically correct route and, oh, let's make sure the police officers aren't pissing off anybody when they have to actually go in neighborhoods and do their job.
RAMSEY: I don't know what you read. I don't care what you read. But that's just simply not true.
If it is true, you can't tie it right back into any settlement agreement we may have entered into. Crime is something that does fluctuate for a variety of reasons.
WRIGHT: Right. But I do understand you also said, Commissioner Ramsey, that you didn't think it was inappropriate for people to assume because you're stopping a black individual that you didn't have the right as an officer or your officers to stop that individual just because of his race. I think that's a dialogue we need to have.
RAMSEY: It's not about race. It's about what is that person doing? What is the behavior? Are you responding to a flash message? Does the person fit the flash?
RAMSEY: Is the person a member of a gang and you're looking at retaliation as a possibility and they are known to carry weapons? You have to have more.
RAMSEY: Listen, there are more decent law-abiding communities living in black communities, Hispanic communities and every community than criminals.
WRIGHT: There sure are.
RAMSEY: And you can't paint everybody with the same brush. You just can't do it.
WRIGHT: I'm going to disagree with you and like I said before about the crime. The crime is occurring at a higher rate in predominantly black neighborhoods. And there's a reason why...
MARK GERAGOS, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right. And what is the reason for that?
WRIGHT: Wait. Because of the breakdown of the black family. There's no fathers in the house.
WRIGHT: Can I finish.
Chicago is genocide -- black male genocide central.
RAMSEY: I'm from Chicago. I grew up in Englewood. And if you know anything about Chicago, you know about Englewood and gangs and issues. I was a Chicago policeman for 30 years. I have been police chief in Washington, D.C., for nine. I have been police commissioner in Philadelphia for five-and-a-half. I didn't come out so bad and I grew up in Englewood. You can't paint every black person that grew up in any particular environment...
WRIGHT: Don't distort what I said.
RAMSEY: ... as necessarily being bad -- well, wait a minute now -- or being more prone to crime.
WRIGHT: That's not what I said. You're misrepresenting what I said.
COOPER: Crystal, Commissioner Ramsey, Mark Geragos, we need to take a quick break. Hold those thoughts. A lot more to talk about. We will continue the conversation after the break.
Also ahead tonight, kidnapping victim Hannah Anderson goes online and gets candid about the horrific ordeal she survived. What she is saying and how it might affect her recovery ahead.
COOPER: Welcome back.
"Keeping Them Honest," we're continuing the conversation on stop and frisk.
With us is Philadelphia Police Commissioner Ramsey, conservative blogger Crystal Wright and criminal defense attorney Mark Geragos.
Commissioner Ramsey, you were trying to make a point before the break. I want to pick it up there.
RAMSEY: Here's the bottom line. As police, we have to make sure that we exercise the enormous authority that the public has given us in a constitutional way. And we do not abuse people's rights. We do not say that there's more -- that all black people are criminals or there's more in this community or more in that community. There are some in every community.
We need to weed them out, but we need to do so in a fashion where we do not disrupt the decent, law-abiding people that are just trapped in an environment that they don't want to be in any more than you would want to be in.
COOPER: Commissioner, in your experience -- Charles Blow was on this program, a columnist, the other day with Crystal and with Mark.
One of his points was that the experience for a young black male, say, of being pulled over, of being stopped, of being frisked and not having anything on you, and you know, statistics show most -- most people who are stopped and frisked are let go, because they haven't done anything wrong. Nothing was found on them.
But that builds a certain sense of humiliation. It builds a resentment toward the police. It builds a sense that police are not there to help us; they are there to -- to monitor us. And that, long- term, actually hurts -- hurts law enforcement, because there's not that sense of cooperation. Do you agree with that?
RAMSEY: Well, it does have a negative impact on our relationships. Most of the complaints I get are not about the stop. It's about how they were treated during the stop. And again, it goes back to training and making sure that police officers can do their job, but do so by still treating people in a respectful way.
WRIGHT: I agree with the commissioner. You know, police officers should be trained. I mean, you have to -- and I think stop and frisk, you continue to monitor the training, how are the police doing this in the field.
RAMSEY: We can go about and make neighborhoods safer, and people want us to make them safer. And at the same time, they want us to respect the rights that they have. Even criminals have rights. Everybody has got rights.
It's the way in which we go about doing our job, the way in which we go about investigating, the way we write it up. Most of these stops are probably good stops, but the cops write them up terribly, and they don't justify the reasons why.
WRIGHT: ... a problem.
COOPER: And Crystal, when you look at the reason a police officer says they pulled somebody over, often it's something like a furtive movement. I mean, that -- does that worry you? I mean, as somebody who respects the Constitution, does it worry you that there's a police officer determining, well, that person made a furtive movement on the street, and therefore, I can pull them over and frisk them?
WRIGHT: Look, I said from the beginning the police need training, and I think they have to evaluate how they're pulling people over and why and what behavioral things. What are the signs you're looking for? You know, I think we need constant training.
However, what I do know is New York City is a lot safer. And I want to go back to yes, I think it's, like, less than 2 percent of the people that are stopped and frisked have guns on them. However, wouldn't you argue that because folks know there's stop-and-frisk going on in New York City, they're probably going to think twice before packing a gun and doing something bad.
GERAGOS: I think there's a lot of people who would argue that the reason that there's only 2 percent is because you've got draconian gun enforcement laws in New York, and they don't want to be caught with them. Remember, Plaxico shot himself and he ended up going to state prison. So...
WRIGHT: Four hundred murders -- 400 murders last year.
GERAGOS: Well, 400 murders as a percentage, I don't think if I'm in a particular community, if a small, tiny percentage of constituents in my community...
WRIGHT: Eight million people in New York.
GERAGOS: I don't want to have to give up -- I don't want to have to give up my constitutional rights.
COOPER: Commissioner Ramsey, I want to leave you with the last word. My understanding, though, in New York, when stop and frisk has gone down 20 percent because of increased monitoring and training, that crime hasn't gone up a corresponding 20 percent. Which, if stop and frisk is the reason that crime has reduced in New York, you would think a 20 percent reduction in stop and frisk would have raised the crime rate, but it hasn't is my understanding.
RAMSEY: Well, New York has done a tremendous job of lowering its crime rate over the last couple of decades. There's no question about that at all.
We're not talking about throwing out stop and frisk. We need that, but we need to make sure that we do it in a way where we don't wind up losing that. Because if we don't straighten up our act as police, we're going to lose it. And then we're going to really have a problem.
We were supposed to do this segment yesterday. The reason I didn't do it is because I had a policeman shot yesterday, shot in the stomach by a person with 12 prior arrests, carrying a stolen firearm, and he shoots one of my policemen at point blank range underneath his vest. And he's fighting for his life as we speak. So we encounter some very dangerous people out there on the street, and no one knows it better than I do. But at the same time we can't just go through that neighborhood that that particular person is from, throw everybody on the wall, start random searches of people simply because we had that take place.
We've got to go after the people causing harm, have the reasonable suspicion, have the basis for the stop that we need to have, so that we can preserve the tools that we have available to us.
COOPER: Commissioner Ramsey, appreciate you being on. And our best to that officer. We hope that officer recovers.
Crystal Wright, great to have you on, as well. Great discussion.
Mark Geragos, thank you so much.
GERAGOS: Thank you.
COOPER: Well, there's a lot more happening tonight. Susan Hendricks is here with a "360 Bulletin" -- Susan.
SUSAN HENDRICKS, HLN ANCHOR: Anderson, convicted Army Private First Class Bradley Manning apologized for his actions today. At his sentencing hearing, he said he hurt people and hurt the United States by leaking tens of thousands of pages of classified documents and videos to the Web site WikiLeaks.
Demand for gun permits has spiked in Newtown, Connecticut. As of August 8, 209 permits have been issued, a 22 percent increase over the entire previous year. This is the same town where 26 children and adults were shot to death at Sandy Hook Elementary School last December.
And near Houston, unbelievable. A high-tech nightmare for the parents of a 2-year-old girl. An unknown hacker gained access to the baby monitor and called out to the girl by name, after likely seeing her name posted on her bedroom wall. The hacker also harassed the girl and parents with foul language. The little girl did not hear the hacker because she is deaf, and she didn't have her cochlear implant in at the time.
But Anderson, certainly a terrifying situation for the parents.
COOPER: That's so creepy. Susan, thanks very much.
Coming up, 16-year-old Hannah Anderson answering questions about her ordeal, surviving, being kidnapped after her mother and brother were killed.
Also ahead, searching for answers in a deadly jetliner crash. The latest on that and more. Straight ahead.
COOPER: He spent hundreds of thousands of dollars in campaign funds on everything from vacations and furs to Michael Jackson memorabilia.
Now former congressman Jesse Jackson Jr. learns the price he'll pay in prison time when we continue.
COOPER: Welcome back.
New details tonight about what was found at the burned-out home of Hannah Anderson's kidnapper, James DiMaggio. According to a search warrant obtained by our affiliate, KGTV, the bodies of Christina Anderson and the Anderson family dog were discovered in DiMaggio's detached garage. A crowbar was next to the mother's body.
Inside the house, the remains of Ethan Anderson.
Authorities also noted that DiMaggio's sister made an unusually large number of calls to him on the day of the fire. According to the warrant, phone records also showed that Hannah Anderson and DiMaggio called each other about 13 times before their phones were turned off the day she was kidnapped.
Today, an Idaho coroner said a preliminary autopsy shows that DiMaggio was shot at least five times. He was killed by an FBI tactical agent after a massive manhunt. And tonight we know why Hannah Anderson didn't try to escape from him. "He would have killed me." That's what Hannah said in what amounted to her first public interview in an online chat room. That's right. She fielded questions about her horrific ordeal, online posting about her mom and brother and what happened the night that DiMaggio killed them.
Her openness has stunned some, but she is, after all, a 16-year- old girl doing what teenagers often do. Casey Wian reports.
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Sixteen-year-old Hannah Anderson is sharing details about her kidnapping on social media. She fielded questions on the site AskFM about her abduction by the man she knew as Uncle Jim, James DiMaggio.
A user asked, "Did you want to go with DiMaggio?"
She replied, "No, not at all."
"Why didn't you run?"
"He would have killed me."
"Why didn't you tell your parents he creeped you out?"
"In part, he was my dad's best friend, and I didn't want to ruin anything between them."
Hannah shed new light on the night she was kidnapped, the same night her mother and younger brother were murdered, their bodies burned in DiMaggio's house.
"How did he separate you from your mom and brother?"
"He tied them up in the garage."
"How did he keep the fire a secret?"
"He had it set where it would catch on fire at a certain time."
Hannah also wrote DiMaggio threatened to kill her if she fled and brought her at least in part to help carry equipment in the wilderness.
Some questions from subscribers were brutally blunt.
"Did he rape you?"
"I'm not allowed to talk about it. So don't ask questions about it, thank you."
"Are you glad he's dead?"
Some experts questioned the wisdom of Hannah's online chats.
WENDY WALSH, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: This is a 16-year-old who's totally traumatized. She is in state of trauma, and so she's not thinking. Sometimes in a numb state, you're doing things that you don't really -- really consider the consequences.
WIAN: Hannah even posted a selfie and engaged in lighter conversation, typical of a teenaged girl, but even some of that seemed painful.
"What design did you get on your nails?"
"Pink for my mom and blue for Ethan."
Those who know her tell CNN Hannah spent some of Tuesday helping to plan their funerals.
Casey Wian, CNN, Los Angeles.
COOPER: Hannah's father asked for privacy, of course, after her rescue, so these postings came as a surprise to a lot of people. I want to bring in Rebecca Bailey, co-author of "Safe Kids, Smart Parents." She's also Jaycee Dugard's therapist. Dugard, you may remember, was held captive, of course, for 18 years.
Rebecca, thanks for being with us. What do you make of this? I mean, is it -- is it healthy for her to be answering questions from complete strangers online just three days after she was free? REBECCA BAILEY, CO-AUTHOR, "SAFE KIDS, SMART PARENTS": You know, as usual, I go to the go-to place, which is I can't judge if it's healthy or not for her. She, as you said, is a 16-year-old girl processing a tremendously traumatic experience in the only way she knows how at this point.
COOPER: I guess -- one of the conversations, someone asked her if her dad knew that she was answering these questions. And she said that, quote, "He knows." It would be hard, I guess, as a parent in this situation to try to strike the right balance between being vigilant and giving your daughter the space she needs.
BAILEY: Absolutely. I mean, would I advise her to be processing this way? No. We've got to speculate, if we're going to speculate, which again, I hate to do, that her dad is dealing with his own tremendous, tremendous grief right now.
And in some ways, she was able to take some sense of power in her ability to not answer the questions. She did set a limit and say, "No, I can't answer that."
COOPER: Yes. And some of the questions, I mean -- when I heard she was doing this, I -- first of all, I wasn't -- we weren't sure if it was real. We knew about this last night at air time, but we wanted to make sure it was actually her, of course. But also just exposing herself to, you know, complete strangers online.
Some of the questions were really horrible, too horrible to even repeat on air. That's certainly one of the dangers in something like that, somebody opens themselves up to the positive feedback but also the negative.
BAILEY: I agree. And unfortunately it's a strange world that a lot of our teenagers live in, as we talk about in our book, and why you have to revisit and revisit this topic.
My concern more is that, if she didn't understand before she was doing this, that it might get to the media. And that's what's troublesome. Because here she is again, trusting and then having it back in her face. It's small potatoes compared to what she's been dealing with, Anderson. We all know that.
And it is -- you know, it's a topic that parents should have with their children about the implications of when you do expose yourself publicly like this.
But again, this is what she's doing to cope right now. And my goodness, this girl needs some support somewhere. I wish it wasn't strangers, and I really hope that she's got people surrounding her and supporting her, that are there for her.
COOPER: One of the things I read a couple years ago about PTSD therapy that psychologists are doing in the field with soldiers and Marines and service members with PTSD is trying to give them a narrative to kind of explain their -- their time overseas and giving them a narrative even before -- while they're still overseas before they come home, it kind of helps them -- I don't know if process is the right word.
Is that something that's important for somebody -- a child who's undergone a trauma, to kind of come up with a narrative that -- I mean, it doesn't make sense, but at least gives some sort of explanation in their own mind?
BAILEY: Anderson, that's such a great observation. Because again, it's so case specific. But for some people processing PTSD, doing it this way, developing this narrative so soon can be helpful. For some, it cannot be. Some people need to be quiet and sit with it and not talk about it.
But you're absolutely right. For this individual child, this may be what -- exactly what she needed, to give it some sort of a sense of control and some sort of a story.
COOPER: And this is obviously something you do in your work and you write about in the book. But just for parents out there whose child has undergone any kind of traumatic thing. Obviously not someone to this degree, even. But what do you -- what do you recommend in terms of helping them kind of -- I don't want to say move on, because that's not really the right term, but just helping them understand and helping them deal with it?
BAILEY: Well, in addition to certainly seeking professional help when it's the right circumstance, allowing the child to bring the information to you when -- when they see fit.
I also want to say, for a lot of kids, this is a scary topic. They're hearing about it in the news; they're hearing about it on the radio. And on some levels, there's a bit of a trauma of hearing about this. It brings to mind, you know, Uncle So and So. Do I have to worry about him?
So help the kids deal with the potential trauma of even the reality that things like this happen by talking with them, allowing them to share their feelings. So the best answer is revisit and try to revisit on their terms.
COOPER: It's good advice. Rebecca Bailey, always good to have you on. Thank you.
BAILEY: Thank you so much, Anderson. Take care.
COOPER: You, too.
Coming up, a grim and bloody ending to a hostage standoff at a bank in Louisiana that we talked about last night. Details on what happened ahead.
COOPER: A jet crashes in flames. Late developments ahead.
COOPER: I'm Susan Hendricks with a "360 News and Business Bulletin."
The NTSB is investigating the crash of a UPS cargo plane near Birmingham's airport. The pilot and co-pilot were killed. The jet went down on approach, bursting into flames.
Former congressman Jesse Jackson Jr. will spend 30 months in prison after pleading guilty to spending about $750,000 in campaign funds on personal expenses. Jackson said he misled the American people but believes in the power of redemption.
A "360 Follow" now. A standoff at a Louisiana bank is over, and two people are dead. Police say Fuaed Abdo Ahmed shot his two remaining hostages when a SWAT team stormed the building overnight. One hostage died. Police killed the gunman.
Here's a question: How much does it cost to raise a child? Well, on average, $241,080 until the age of 18. That's according to new government data. And by the way, this does not include college.
Stay with us. Anderson will be right back with the "RidicuList."
COOPER: Oh, yes, it's time for the "RidicuList." Tonight, we have the story of a man in Tennessee and his beloved raccoon. It's a story, really, of two raccoons, actually.
Once upon a time there was a raccoon named Gunshow. A while back, Marc Brown posted a video online of he and Gunshow dancing to, what else, but Aretha Franklin's "Chain of Fools."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(MUSIC: ARETHA FRANKLIN'S "CHAIN OF FOOLS")
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Now, sadly, that particular raccoon has gone on to the great gun show in the sky, and he passed away in January. But four months later, a new raccoon came into Mr. Brown's life and apparently into his bathtub, as well.
Now normally when a masked bandit shows up in your bathroom, it's not a good day. But this is Rebecca, a raccoon that he bottle fed, kept as a pet, and he has, at least one time, showered with.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARC BROWN, HAS RACCOON AS PET: That's my darling on my shoulder, all sudsed up. You shampoo your cat; you shampoo your dog. I shampooed my raccoon.
(END VIDEO CLIP) COOPER: Now, is it just me or "I shampooed my raccoon" totally sounds like a euphemism? For what? I don't know. I leave that up to you.
Anyway, all I'm saying is that it's rare to hear that sort of a sentence used in a literal way.
Sadly, though, these days Mr. Brown is showering alone, because the Tennessee Wildlife Resources Agency took Rebecca away, because it's illegal to keep a wild animal as a pet. Mr. Brown doesn't quite see it that way.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: I'm trying to get her out of captivity and keep her from this. And this. I have done nothing wrong but save something from a certain death.
What I did should not be condemned. It should be commended. She would not be here today had it not been for me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, now he's appealing to the governor to bring his little baby home, and he blames the whole thing on the cruel mistress of Internet fame.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Now that I have become a big fish, they've come after me to take Rebecca away from me.
Governor, just give me my permit, give me my pardon, and I'll shut up. I ask God every night for two things. Either free Rebecca back to me or let me just forget about it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: That beard is amazing.
Look, I've said it before, I'll say it again, it's hard not to be sell pathetic when a grown man who looks like he's in ZZ Top waxes poetic about his pet raccoon. I'm not made of stone. I bleed. I cry.
I'm also not generally fond of people keeping wild animals as pets, but there did seem to be a bond there. So when it comes to this particular raccoon controversy, you make the call on "The RidicuList."
Hey, that's it for us. Thanks for watching. "ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starts now.