Return to Transcripts main page

ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES

Law Enforcement Close Call on LAX Shooter; Wounded Shooting Victims Speaking Out; Interview with Dr. Phil McGraw; NFL Hazing or Bullying?; Questions Of A Possible Coverup In The Vanderbilt University Rape Case

Aired November 4, 2013 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Erin, thanks.

Good evening, everyone.

Tonight, breaking news, one of the TSA officers wounded at LAX describing the rampage that killed one of his colleagues, that killed a friend.

Later, what Michelle Knight endured year after year, during more than a decade of captivity. She is finally telling her story to Dr. Phil, who joins us tonight.

Plus, reports of bullying on the Miami Dolphins, and not from opposing teams either, from one of the players.

We begin tonight with the breaking news: a TSA officer wounded in Friday's rampage at Los Angeles International Airport is telling his story for the first time just minutes ago.

Tony Grigsby, 36 years old, his colleague, James Speer, was also shot. His friend and colleague, Gerardo Hernandez, was shot and killed. Tony Grigsby spoke about him first.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TONY GRIGSBY, WOUNDED TSA OFFICER: Before I share my experience on Friday, let me take one moment to express the sadness I feel from my heart over the loss of my friends who was killed in the line of duty, Gerardo Hernandez. Only now it has hit me that I will never see him again.

He was a wonderful person. And a friend and I will miss him. I send my condolences to his family. Last time I talked to him, we -- we're joking about going on vacation to Mexico and, you know, what should I do, where I should not go? I talked to him a lot. So he's very, very dear friend to me. You know, I used to talk to him a lot at Terminal Three.

So I was injured while helping an elderly man trying to get to a safe area. I turned around and there was a gunman that shot me twice. I was shot in the foot. After I was shot I got to the area where the planes were at. And people were coming towards me and asking, you know, were you shot and what is going on.

And I was like -- and I couldn't -- all I could think about was, you know, helping them, like you know. I may be injured right now, but the concern is really to take care of you. We don't know where the gunman is at. So I like to make sure people are safe first, don't worry about me.

So that is my story. Thank you for giving me a chance to tell a little bit what happened to me. Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: A very decent guy.

In a moment you're going to hear another survivor story. First, though, all the major developments in the story today.

For that, Kyung Lah joins us now.

So what's the latest?

KYUNG LAH, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you saw how gingerly and carefully, Anderson, Grigsby walked towards the cameras. It was very difficult for him.

This is a big strong guy. The neighbors I spoke with said he exercises every single day. When I spoke to his grandmother, she said her grandson is in pain, that is tough for her to see. It is going to be a long recovery process for him and the other victims. Meanwhile, we are learning more from law enforcement especially about some excruciating, missed details.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LAH (voice-over): When Paul Ciancia woke up on Friday morning he quickly put his violent plan into action. His first move, according to a woman who knows the gunman and his roommate was to get to the airport. She asked to not be identified.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That morning, he doesn't knock, just opens the door, and says, I need to leave. Can you take me now?

LAH: One of Ciancia's roommates then drove him to LAX. It's around this time that Ciancia's roommate believed he texted his brother in New Jersey. Police say the texts were suicidal. Ciancia's father called the LAPD asking officers to check on his son.

(On camera): 10:06 the call comes in, how quickly do you respond?

CMDR. ANDREW SMITH, LOS ANGELES POLICE: The call came in at 10:06 to our Communications Dispatch Center. Our officers were at scene in his driveway at 10:12. As quickly as six minutes.

LAH: So six minutes.

(Voice-over): Ciancia was not there. He had about 15 minutes earlier already begun his rampage through Terminal 3.

CHIEF ALLEN CUMMINGS, PENNSVILLE, N.J. POLICE: We didn't even put -- you know, put two and two together. We weren't connecting the dots in all of this time.

LAH: Ciancia's father also called this local police chief in Pennsville, New Jersey. Chief Allen Cummings then called the LAPD, and was told the officers had just cleared Ciancia's apartment because he was not there. The next call was from a reporter who told him Paul Ciancia was the gunman.

CUMMINGS: I put the phone down. I basically said oh, my god. You know, I couldn't believe it. And I was in shock.

LAH: Seconds later, Ciancia's father saw the TV coverage and called him.

CUMMINGS: He said, am I seeing this on TV? This is my son that committed the shooting at the airport? He was an emotional wreck. I mean, he -- can you imagine seeing your son on TV and something like this? You know. I think that he was just in shock. He was very upset.

LAH: The FBI says Ciancia planned this, carried five loaded magazines and wrote a note that showed he targeted TSA officers, Officer Gerardo Hernandez, a father of two, just happened to be stationed in the prescreening area when Ciancia drew his 22 caliber semiautomatic rifle. The FBI says Ciancia shot him once, went up the escalator, turned around and came back, and shot him again.

Horror in the terminal, and frustration in two police departments that the timing was all so wrong.

CUMMINGS: What if we could have stopped that and the officers appeared at the residence to do, you know, a well-being check on him and he hadn't left yet. It would have been really a phenomenal thing if we could have prevented that.

SMITH: Well, it's extraordinarily frustrating for all of us. I think there's not a single officer in the Los Angeles Police Department, probably across the country, that doesn't wish that they were able to go there before this guy left the house and stop him from doing these terrible things.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: They came so close.

Kyung, this -- the police chief in New Jersey knew the family for a very long time, essentially saw the gunman grow up. Did he tell you anything else about him?

LAH: Well, he says that this is a very good family. A very tight knit family -- a family that you might see anywhere in middle America. And he says it is simply shocking that it happened to these family. Parents who took their kids to the best private school that they could afford, and kids who never got in trouble. He never came across these kids, especially the gunman. They were just always assumed to be doing the right thing in town.

COOPER: Well, thanks very much. Appreciate it.

Now another survivor story and a lesson really how the Boy Scouts training can save the life. Former scout and current L.A. area high school leader, Brian Ludmer, seen there on the left is recovering from a very serious leg wound. The fact that he was near probably a pair of TSA officers probably made him a target. The fact that he knew how to apply a tourniquet, that may have saved his life. His colleague and local school superintendent, Dan Stepenosky, has been visiting him. He joins us now.

So, Dan, you visited Brian in the hospital yesterday. How is he doing?

SUPT. DAN STEPENOSKY, BOSS OF LAX SHOOTING SURVIVOR: I saw him yesterday morning, he is doing very well, Anderson. His spirits are up. He is a positive guy. He has got a long road ahead of him but he's got a lot of love and support around him.

COOPER: I know you guys spoke extensively about the shooting. What did he say?

STEPENOSKY: He said that he had heard the gunshots. He was on the second level. The gunshots began on the first level. Everyone ran, chaos, pandemonium. So he found himself near two TSA agents, saw the gunman out of the corner of his eye. And that's when he said his leg below his right knee went to Jell-O. He had been shot in the back, in the calf. Shattered his tibia and fibula. And exited out the front of the shin, leaving a pretty good hole.

And he collapsed and dragged himself to a nearby closet. And as you said found a sweat shirt in the closet, made a makeshift tourniquet out of it to stop and slow the bleeding. And closed the door and was there for about 10 minutes. He was very scared at that point. He thought that might be the end.

COOPER: That's amazing. I mean, he dragged himself to the closet and applied a tourniquet to his own leg. I mean, that's incredibly rational thinking at a time like that.

Is there any idea what his road to recovery is going to be like? I mean, you said it is a long road.

STEPENOSKY: He's got a long road. He had a second surgery today. I believe they're going to -- I believe today they inserted a titanium rod to help stabilize the leg. The first surgery on Friday was to put an external stabilizer on the leg to make sure it stayed the right length, and they can either try and bone graft or a titanium rod. And I think that's the direction they're going. There'll be extensive PT. He's a great guy, we can't wait to get him back.

COOPER: I know you were very instrumental in getting Brian hired. What's he like as a teacher? STEPENOSKY: He's the best. He's everything you'd want to ask for. I guess I'd say he is a rock star. He connects with the kids, he cares about them. He is the kind of guy who tries to find a way to say yes. He runs our brand-new theaters for us, does an amazing job. The students put on "West Side Story" last year. They're in the middle of "Mid Summer Night Dream" right now.

So he is a big loss for us. But he is healing. He is going in the right direction, so we're saying up prayers and positive energy.

COOPER: And you're hoping he comes back to teaching?

STEPENOSKY: Absolutely. He is the kind of guy you want in a class, build a strong relationship with the kids. He is everything that is right about public teaching.

COOPER: Well, Dan, we appreciate you taking the time to talk to us. Please send our best to him and his family.

Let us know what you think. Follow me on Twitter, @Andersoncooper. And tweet using hash tag AC360.

Next, Michelle Knight describing 11 years locked inside Ariel Castro's house of horrors. How she's managed six months after gaining her freedom. Dr. Phil McGraw sat down with her. He joins us next. We'll show you parts of what she says.

Later, why the NFL is now investigating the Miami Dolphins. Reports of teammate-on-teammate bullying. A bizarre story straight ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: A 32-year-old woman is speaking out tonight about the 21-year-old woman, herself, who fell into the hands of a brutal demented, sadistic monster named Ariel Castro, who did not see freedom again until 11 years had gone by.

Michelle Knight, who along with Amanda Berry and Gina DeJesus, were held captive by Castro at his Cleveland home. They were freed, of course, in May.

In August, Castro was sentenced to life plus a thousand years in prison. By September, he killed himself. He could not, however, even if he had wanted to, obliterated the ordeal that he subjected Gina and Amanda and Michelle, too.

Michelle tells her story to Dr. Phil McGraw. In this moment, she describes the time when Castro immobilized her.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. PHIL MCGRAW, HOST, "DR. PHIL SHOW": So he gets you in this room. What did he tie you up with?

MICHELLE KNIGHT, CLEVELAND KIDNAPPING SURVIVOR: One of those orange extension cords. I was tied up like a fish, an ornament on the wall. That's the only way I could describe it. I was hanging like this. My feet, and I was tied by my neck and my arms with the extension cord going like that.

MCGRAW: Oh, my god. So he tied your hands and feet and also around your neck? And hung you?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Well, the interview airs tomorrow and Wednesday. Dr. Phil joins us tonight.

So, Dr. Phil, it's remarkable that Michelle was able to talk so openly about what happened to her. Did it seem like -- I mean, was it easy for her to talk?

MCGRAW: You know, Anderson, I was very surprised because I was concerned that she was going to have a difficult time because like so many others I was able to see her do her statement in the courtroom. And then a statement that was on YouTube. And those really do not tell you who she is.

Everyone had said in the media that she was intellectually disabled and I wasn't at all sure what her ability to talk about it was going to be. When I sat down with her, I found that she was intelligent, she was articulate, that she just really was forthcoming and candid about the things that she had to say. This is a very well spoken young woman.

COOPER: We also, in your interview, learned more about just how demented this guy Ariel Castro was. And I want to play a part of that where she talks to you about him throwing money at her. Let's play that.

MCGRAW: Right.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCGRAW: Did you fight him at the time?

KNIGHT: At the time no. Because I was shocked.

MCGRAW: And panic, just froze?

KNIGHT: Yes. And the only thing I can do is cry. Begging him, let me go back to my son.

MCGRAW: What did you say to him?

KNIGHT: I said, please don't do this to me. And he said, again, he can't take me back. And then he throw money at me.

MCGRAW: What was the significance of him throwing money at you?

KNIGHT: He was obsessed with prostitutes. And also he thought I was a 13-year-old prostitute. When he found out my real age, he got mad.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: I mean, this was such a sick demented man.

MCGRAW: He not only brutalized Michelle physically in terms of raping and beating her, but he also terrorized her emotionally. He would taunt her about no one looking for her. He would play mind games and set up seeming opportunities for her to escape. A door left unlocked. A chain that was not properly connected. Then he would make a show of leaving and sneak back into the house to see if he could catch her trying to escape. And if and when he did, the punishment was swift. It was brutal. And it lasted for days and days at a time.

COOPER: There were also periods of time where she would be left all alone. I mean, no food, no water, no bathroom for days, right?

MCGRAW: She came out weighing 75 pounds, which was just a little over half of her body weight when she went in. And he would leave her with nothing, nothing to eat, nothing to drink. And she had like a small can, a coffee can, that she would have to use as a -- as a bathroom.

COOPER: What did she say about her relationship with the other women that she was held captive with, Gina DeJesus and Amanda Berry? I mean, were they -- how quickly did she meet them? What was their relationship?

MCGRAW: Well, we know that she was taken first, and she spent almost an entire year there on her own. And she had to deal with this animal, this monster, one-on-one, through all of this time. About a year later, then the second girl comes in. And about a year later, it was not exactly a year, the third one comes in. And it seems as though, particularly in the early going, he kept them very separate.

COOPER: Was there ever a time that she tried to escape? I mean could she other than these kind of set-up manufactured times?

MCGRAW: You know, there were -- Anderson there were times where she felt like she could get away. But quickly, these things would disappear for her. Understanding that he kept her chained up, either a chain around her neck, her waist or her ankles, most of the time. But she did everything she could to get people's attention. And the tactics and strategies that she used to negotiate this man, and try to keep herself alive until she got a chance to escape were very impressive.

I mean, she used tactics that you hear Homeland Security and the FBI using. I mean, instinctually she did that.

COOPER: You know, one of the things I always wonder about people being kidnapped in this kind of a situation is, how you survive, you know, day to day, week to week, sometimes a minute or a second by second. Did she talk about sort of mentally how she would escape? Or -- I mean, what gave her that will to survive? MCGRAW: You know, it's astounding to me that she had the strength that she did. Now think about this. He's chained her to this pole around her neck and her waist, put a motorcycle helmet, straps it tight, closes the visor, and leaves her there for days and days at a time. It's cold, it's damp, it's filthy, it smells. She couldn't lay down. There was not enough play in the chain to lay down, so she would just lean into it and pass out essentially.

And then she would wake back up. And she says that she was referred to as the unbreakable one. She fought him every step of the way. She would fight back. She would challenge him. She would argue with him and she would pay the price for it but she said that she knew that after having seen his face that he could not let her go. So her goal was to stay alive one day to the next until she got a chance to get out of there.

COOPER: Well, part two of our interview with Dr. Phil is tomorrow night.

One other note, Dr. Phil's staff has set up trust fund for Michelle Knight. Made a donation to it. You can get the details on his program tomorrow.

Up next, Miami Dolphins' offensive line man Jonathan Martin leaves the team, dodging allegations of player misconduct -- I should say lodging accusations of player misconduct. The allegations that have send shockwaves through professional football.

Also ahead, the NYPD's controversial stop and frisk policy. Does it effectively fight crime or unjustly target people of color? Listen and decide for yourself.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED OFFICER: Listen to me. When you're walking the block, with your hood up and you keep looking back at us like that --

UNIDENTIFIED SERGEANT: Why do you have a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) empty bookbag?

UNIDENTIFIED OFFICER: -- we think you might have something.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because I had my hoodie in there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Hey, welcome back. Allegations of bullying are shaking up the world of professional football. The NFL has opened an investigation to Miami Dolphins to the request of the team. Yesterday the Dolphins suspended guard Richie Incognito for what it called detrimental conduct.

ESPN and NFL.com reported that he sent text and voicemail messages to teammate and fellow offensive line man Jonathan Martin that contain racist and violent language. Last week Martin took a leave of absence from the team. And over the weekend, a representative for him contacted the Dolphins and made allegations of player misconduct.

In a statement, the team acknowledged Martin's allegations, but they didn't identify Incognito as the target of the complaint.

More on the story tonight from Randi Kaye, and a warning, some of the language in her report is graphic.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Call it the $4.8 million mystery. That's potentially the amount of money, this man, Jonathan Martin walked away from when he abruptly quit the Miami Dolphins.

Why did he do it? Speculation centers around this man, his teammate. According to multiple news reports, including those from ESPN and NFL.com, Richie Incognito allegedly left a threatening voicemail for Martin this year, a year after he was drafted.

The voice message is allegedly loaded with expletives. In this recorded voicemail, Martin is called an expletive and a piece of expletive. A voice purported to be Incognito told Martin he wants to slap his expletive mouth and slap his real mother across the face. The message reportedly ends with a reminder to Martin that he is still a rookie, and then before hanging up, the caller says, I'll kill you.

The Miami Dolphins suspended Richie Incognito indefinitely, explaining in a statement that the suspension was for conduct detrimental to the team. Following reports of him bullying his teammate Incognito who was named just last year by the "Sporting News" as the league's second dirtiest player, took to Twitter to defend himself against the story first reported by ESPN.

In one tweet he writes, "Shame on you for attaching my name to false speculation. I won't be holding my breath for an apology." And a few minutes later, this one aimed at several sports networks, "I want my name cleared."

(On camera): Clearing his name may not be so easy. Incognito will have to explain whether or not he had anything to do with Martin suddenly leaving the team last Monday. Was it really about a lunchroom incident where some of the other players moved tables after Martin tried to join them? Or was there something more going on?

ESPN reports Martin hasn't filed a formal complaint because of fear of retribution primarily from Incognito.

(Voice-over): Martin and Incognito may also be at odds after Martin reportedly paid $15,000 to Incognito to fund a Las Vegas trip for Dolphins players. Fearing the consequences if he did not hand over the money. That according to ESPN.

It all seems to be part of a bigger issue -- hazing. This clip from HBO's documentary, "Hard Knocks," shows what some younger players are put through. Former Atlanta Falcons player Jamal Anderson told CNN hazing is practically a rite of passage.

JAMAL ANDERSON, FORMER NFL PLAYER: Most of any and all hazing that happens in football, it happens on every level. It's harmless. Most of the time it's harmless.

KAYE: Martin may not have had to deal with anything like this, but when he left the team last week, he reportedly sought mental health counseling and expressed a desire to spend time with his family.

CNN has been working to confirm media reports on this story. But calls to Martin, Incognito and their representatives have not been returned. The Dolphins' head coach downplayed any bullying on his team at a late afternoon press conference.

JOE PHILBIN, MIAMI DOLPHINS HEAD COACH: In all my discussions with Jonathan and members of his family at no time were there accusations or allegations of misconduct by any members of this team or this organization.

KAYE: Though it's unclear if or when he may return to the team, the Dolphins have expressed their full support for Jonathan Martin. But with Richie Incognito's suspension, his future with the team is less clear.

Randi Kaye, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: There's a lot more update tonight. Isha is here with the "360 Bulletin" -- Isha.

ISHA SESAY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, there's other football news to tell you about. The Houston Texas head coach Gary Kubiak is still in the hospital. He collapsed on the field last night during the game against the Colts. The team says Kubiak did not have a heart attack, but did not say what caused the incident.

The Obama administration is concerned that once the health care Web site is fully functioning, some consumers may be angry at the limited insurance plan options available to them, and some -- in some cases, high cost. That's according to an administration document obtained by CNN.

Tonight, the president talked about the Web site.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There have been some tough parts, let's face it. You know, the truth of the matter is, is that while ultimately healthcare.gov, the Web site, is going to be the easiest place to shop for and buy these new plans, and it is getting faster and more stable, it's not where it needs to be yet.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SESAY: And a referendum to split Colorado in two is on the ballot tomorrow in 11 counties in the northern part of the state. Many of the area's rural residents say state government favors urban residents over them. But even if the referendum passes, secession is highly unlikely.

And then to ancient mystery may be solved. Britain's Channel 4 reports scientists believe King Tut, the Egyptian pharaoh who died at the age of 19, was hit by a chariot and killed. They say injuries to his body included shattered ribs and pelvis.

COOPER: Interesting. All right.

SESAY: Yes. Indeed.

COOPER: Isha, thanks.

Still ahead, a powerful new look at the NYPD's controversial stop-and-frisk tactics through the eyes of a teenager from Harlem named Alvin.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED OFFICER: You want to go to jail?

ALVIN: For what? For what?

UNIDENTIFIED OFFICER: Shut your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) mouth, kid.

ALVIN: What am I getting arrested for?

UNIDENTIFIED OFFICER: Shut your mouth.

ALVIN: What am I getting arrested for.

UNIDENTIFIED OFFICER: For being a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) mutt. You know that?

ALVIN: That's a law, bring a mutt?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Also ahead, a shocking rape and allegations of a cover- up at some of the country's top universities.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Welcome back, tonight on "AC360 LATER," a panel discussion show at 10:00, we're devoting the whole hour to "Race and Justice in America" topics like "Stand Your Ground," and other situations like African-Americans arrested while shopping in department stores.

Well, let's look at NYPD's controversial policy, stop-and-frisk, now supporters defend it for reducing crime. Opponents say it unfairly targets Latinos and African-Americans. In a moment, we're going to hear arguments from both sides. You can decide for yourself. But first, I want to play you an actual stop and frisk interaction recorded on the cell phone of a Harlem teenager who was stopped. I want to warn you some of the language is graphic.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED OFFICER: You again?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just got stopped two blocks.

UNIDENTIFIED OFFICER: You know why? You look very suspicious.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because you're always looking at me very crazy.

UNIDENTIFIED OFFICER: Why do you look back at us?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because you look at me crazy, always.

UNIDENTIFIED OFFICER: Listen to me, listen to me, our job is to look at suspicious behavior, when you keep looking at us --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because I just got stopped two block away.

UNIDENTIFIED OFFICER: Because you keep doing that -- man, when you walk down the block with your hood up and you keep looking back --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I had my hoodie up. It was cold. You going to smack me, you going to smack me, you asked me why I had a hoodie on -- you asked me why I had a hoodie on, why are you touching me for?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: That clip is contained in a film called "The Hunted and The Hated," which is posted online at thenation.com. The filmmaker will join us tonight on "AC360 LATER" at 10. But right now, let's talk about stop and frisk, with Kevin Flanagan, retired NYPD detective who is now managing partner, (inaudible) Investigation and Charles Blow, CNN political commentator and op-ed columnist at the "New York Times." Kevin Flanagan, you have not familiar with that, that whole documentary, you haven't seen it, but what do you make of that recording? What stands out to you?

KEVIN FLANAGAN, RETIRED NYPD DETECTIVE: Two things, the fact that he was recording, sounds like he was trying to deliberately walk past and -- may have done some behavior to cause the police to take a look at him. And especially, since he said he just got stopped two blocks back. And you again, is the way they encounter -- that part is fine. Obviously, the escalation and the dialogue of him asking a question and being threatened to be smacked is completely inappropriate in that regard.

COOPER: Right. Charles, what do you make when you hear that? What does that tell you? CHARLES BLOW, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think one important thing -- it illuminates for a lot of people is the nature of what a stop-and-frisk is. I think a lot of people think it is kind of an officer-friendly, where are you going? I need to frisk you, and thank you and you're on that way. It is not always that kind of friendly sort of interaction.

It is sometimes very fraught and I heard another man part of the suit giving his description of it. It was very invasive, very violent. No one is explaining anything to him. At least the cops are trying to say the reason we are stopping you is because of x, y or z, that is not what happened. The extent of the frisking even shocked me. The parts of his body they're putting their hands on.

When they're finished they don't even say you can now get up and leave. They just walk to the car and drive away. I mean, I think the kind of emotional scars that can have on people, particularly if nine out of ten people who are stopped and frisked are never charged, never get a summons, what is that doing to hundreds of thousands of young men long-term?

COOPER: And not only long term, but fighting crime.

BLOW: There was one recent study reported to me, they were just trying to look at what the effects, what they were, this is kind of new research. They're finding people who are subjected to stop-and- frisk, who were not charged, were less likely to call the police when they were actually the victims of crime when they needed the truth.

COOPER: Do you think that is true, Kevin, because there is such a problem with people not reporting or testifying, not coming to police when they have witnessed a crime, do you think this kind of adds to that suspicion of police, the dislike of police that has ramifications?

FLANAGAN: Absolutely, why come to your house if I'm going to be treated badly? And I agree with that. You know, the issue with stop in question, or stop-and-frisk now as it is referred to, it is -- numbers driven now the way the micro-management of these numbers have taken over. So where you needed to have accountability, whether the cops had the right summons, in an area that was not prone to violations, they were still asked to stop and ask questions. It was almost as if there was a notification, I didn't have to pat you down or frisk you.

COOPER: So the nature has changed --

FLANAGAN: Absolutely, back in the '80s and '90s when we would do a 250, the uf-250 is what the form was in the police department. You would just write a description, sometimes they didn't want to tell you a name. You just wrote a description of the clothing. It was mostly driven by a patent analysis of a particular time of crime, a robbery or sex case.

You know, you have sex offenses going on now in certain sections of the city, and they put out the notifications and wanted posters, and the person may not necessarily be armed. So you're looking for the behavior on the street and if you're going to have an encounter with somebody, it is documented because you don't know if you're grabbing the guy at the time.

COOPER: And I want to play you -- there is not just a threat of violence in this instance not just a shakedown, listen to the recording here.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED OFFICER: Shut your -- mouth.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're asking the questions? I was --

UNIDENTIFIED OFFICER: Respect. That is about --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You always stop me for no reason, why are you pushing me for what?

UNIDENTIFIED OFFICER: I'm going --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're going to drop me on my face? Don't got a phone.

UNIDENTIFIED OFFICER: The traffic --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don't touch me, okay, he is a photographer? Why you --

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Does -- does stop-and-frisk actually work in stopping crime? Does it work?

FLANAGAN: I can tell you from interviews with defendants after arrests, yes, it is something that is in their minds, as well, when they're out. Whether it is for committing robberies or other types of offenses, it is something that they're cognizant of.

COOPER: Do you think if it stopped in New York or altered significantly, the crime would go up?

FLANAGAN: Yes, listen, my personal opinion is you create an environment where the police become afraid to be involved. You then respond to a 911 job, there is no proactive policing, you take a report and it gets filed and then somebody looks down the road to investigate it where the street account or arrest is really -- if you call 911, do you want somebody to wait 5 minutes before they come and take a report and send you on your way?

COOPER: You're saying the police are more cautious --

BLOW: No one is saying get rid of stop-and-frisk, I think it can be an effective tool. We shouldn't take it away from police, but it should be a reasonable suspicion that you operate on. One thing that came out years ago, white people stopped and frisked were more likely to have guns. The truth of it may sound odd, but it is because they were stopped for a cause, not because they were white. The success rate of the suspicion was higher.

COOPER: We're going to have more with Charles in our 10:00, I appreciate you being on. We'll continue the conversations an hour from now, during a special edition of "AC360," race and justice, stop and frisk, America's struggle for racial equality, if we're succeeding.

Up next, is there a cover-up going on with the Vanderbilt rape case, four football players charged with raping women on campus. Now there are questions about whether the star quarterback help move the alleged victim. Not many people have been talking up to this point. Gary Tuchman gets some answers tonight.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Crime and punishment tonight, the rape case that has shocked Nashville and the Vanderbilt University football program. New questions about a possible cover up, four football players have been charged with rape and sexual battery and alleged attack on a woman on campus back in June, all four were kicked off the team and suspended from school, and all pleaded not guilty and are out on bond.

Well, now there is a lot of conversation in and around Nashville about a text message that suggest the current star quarterback was there, too, and actually helped to move the victim. There was a lot of secrecy surrounding this case. Gary Tuchman did some digging and got some answers. Here's his report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WORRICK ROBINSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think everybody would agree that there were crimes that were committed in the room that night, yes.

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: With this victim?

ROBINSON: Yes, with this young lady.

TUCHMAN (voice-over): Worrick Robinson is an attorney for a young man named Corey Beatty. Beatty was a football player at Vanderbilt University in Nashville, Tennessee. Along with three other teammates he was accused of raping a female student in the dorm room. Beatty and the other three, Brandon Banks, Jaborian McKenzie and Brandon Vandenburg, all faced the possibility of up to 25 years in prison.

Attorneys involved in the case say the victim was dating Vandenburg, a highly sought off recruit who allegedly videotaped what happened. All four men had not yet ever played in the Vanderbilt game and they all pled not guilty. But Beatty's attorney says he and his client would be open to a plea bargain.

(on camera): So you are acknowledging your client has culpability in this case. ROBINSON: He does, yes.

TUCHMAN (voice-over): There was also a fifth Vanderbilt football player, Chris Boyd, who was charged with the lesser crime of trying to cover up the rape, who agreed to a plea bargain.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Guilty or not guilty.

TUCHMAN: It was at this court hearing that the shocked community got another shock. Deputy District Attorney Tom Thurman read a text in court wrote in court written by Boyd. In it Boyd wrote Vanderbilt's current starting quarterback, Austin Samuels, helped to move the unconscious victim out of the hallway after the attack.

Then, to everyone's surprise, the prosecutor said that what Boyd texted about the quarterback was a mistake and offered no explanation why. It was a bombshell, and had everybody in the city wondering if there was a cover-up to protect the reputation of the team's star player. I talked to the prosecutor about his actions in court.

(on camera): You testified it was a text, so did the quarterback help to move the victim?

TOM THURMAN, DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY GENERAL: That was his text, yes.

TUCHMAN: So did the quarterback help to move the victim?

THURMAN: No, at least the police investigation indicated he was not present when the victim was moved.

TUCHMAN: So did Chris Boyd lie then?

THURMAN: Well, in the text, he sent an incorrect text. That's correct.

TUCHMAN: And why would he do that? He knows who the quarterback is.

THURMAN: Again, I can't comment on that. I think there will be evidence about that.

TUCHMAN: But do you know the answer?

THURMAN: I think I know the answer, yes.

TUCHMAN: So there was a motivation he had, not to tell the truth.

THURMAN: Well, again, that will come out at trial.

TUCHMAN (voice-over): So what is that all about? The prosecutor says moving a woman from the hallway into a room is not a crime in itself any way. But if the quarterback was involved in any way, it could be a bigger scandal that hurts an increasingly successful football program. (on camera): There is no protecting the quarterback from this office?

THURMAN: No, I don't know what we're protecting him from.

TUCHMAN: You're not protecting him?

THURMAN: No, I'm not.

TUCHMAN (voice-over): The national newspaper, "The Tennessean" criticizes the lack of public information from the prosecutor's office in this case. A columnist for the paper wrote, was the starting quarterback there before, during or after? It is a yes or no question, but the prosecutors are playing a championship game of dodge ball. Brian Haas reports for the paper.

BRIAN HAAS, REPORTER, "THE TENNESSEAN": I think that the secrecy certainly is not helping public perception in this issue. If they're trying to build confidence from the public that they're handling this case properly, the secrecy certainly has not helped them especially because they have been unwilling to clarify issues.

TUCHMAN: The prosecutor says it is an insult to his integrity to suggest his office is participating in a cover-up.

(on camera): So you say no matter what the criminal case is, you would release as little in this case.

THURMAN: That is our policy.

TUCHMAN (voice-over): Quarterback, Austin Cartesamuels, turned down our request for an interview. The university administration didn't want to talk on camera. They told us their thoughts from the outset have been with the victim and family. We continue to offer her all the services and support. What is clear about this case, there is plenty of video, video shot in the room, and surveillance video from the hallway.

(on camera): Is it fair to say that you're sure the quarterback was not there because there is video of this incident?

THURMAN: That is fair to say.

TUCHMAN (voice-over): What is also fair to say is that the quarterback is on the prosecution witness list for the trial of the case. Prosecutors are not saying specifically why. Gary Tuchman, CNN, Nashville, Tennessee.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: We'll continue to follow up on this, let's get caught up on some other stories we are following. Isha is here with the 360 Bulletin -- Isha.

ISHA SESAY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, Central Connecticut State University was on lockdown for several hours today after several people reported seeing a man with a gun. Campus police say they're looking at whether it was a student wearing a Halloween costume that included a sword-like object. A student was arrested and charged with breach of peace.

And a New York University firefighter rescuing a student stuck between two buildings for nearly two days. It took 90 minutes to free the sophomore after breaking through three layers of cinder block. The student is in fair condition, it is not clear how he got stuck.

And in Northern Wisconsin, two sky diving planes collided. One broke into pieces in mid-air. The pilot landed the second plane amazingly, Anderson, everyone survived. All nine jumpers made it to safety, including the pilot.

COOPER: Amazing, Isha, we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Time now for the "Ridiculist." Tonight, we bring you a mystery from Mississippi, in the town of Picayune, an animal has been spotted. It has the locals wondering what exactly is that? It appears to be a canine or perhaps a lupine, but residents have some another descriptions for this creature.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If a zombie had a dog, it would look like that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: One neighbor thought it looked like a hairless coyote.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I kept looking it up, we then ran back and forth to the car, because we didn't want it to get us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Has the legendary animal taken residence here or perhaps there is another explanation?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We came out here and I could see it running over there. I said look, Daddy, that is over there. He said that is a squatch dog.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Say, a what now? A squatch dog? I get what a zombie is, I know about what the goat sucker is, but what is a squatch dog? Is that a watch dog that barks, who is the product of a love affair between a squatch and a dog? If that is the case, it is prose pretty far from home. We have proof that big foot is alive. He has been playing tricks on a guy named Ken.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He yelled, whoop, whoop, and after about 5 minutes of that, it was two or three whoops that came from here, and then like a few days later, they took my couch, dropped it and dragged it 20 feet toward the house.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: His couch was outside the house, and big foot was driving the couch toward the house? What was the couch doing outside? So many questions that Ken raises, he says that big foot has also moved the wood piles and thrown rocks over his head. Now, look, I'm certainly no psychologist or psychiatrist, but it sounds like big foot is irritated because he is all the way out in California, while his dog is 2500 miles away in Mississippi or maybe this is another type of squatch dog.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The way they described it to me. It is a coyote, really bad off with the mange.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Dear, the mange. The woman who took the video and says if this is an animal in distress, she wants to help. You can't really approach him. If he is a coyote bad off with the mange, you probably should not approach him anyway.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is probably sick, weak, not able to hunt on its own, so it is going to the nearest food source they can find.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They need to be aware, to stay away, and let nature take its course.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: I'm kind of sad actually, for our purposes, let's just say he is indeed the animal. All right, that does it for us. I hope you join us one hour from now at 10 p.m. Easter, "AC360 LATER," tonight a special race in the justice edition, and our panel will discuss that. "PIERS MORGAN LIVE" starts now.