Return to Transcripts main page
ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
CDC Issue New Hospital Guidelines for Ebola; Alleged Fraud in AIDS Vaccine Research; UVA Suspect Charged in 2005 Rape Case; Sources: Brown's Blood Found in Officer's Car, on Gun; Possible Serial Killer in Indiana; ISIS Launches 15 Attacks across Iraq; Benghazi Attack Suspect Pleads Not Guilty; Monica Lewinsky Talks about Clinton affair; Source: Oscar de la Renta Dies at the age of 82
Aired October 20, 2014 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, AC360 HOST: What exactly are they? Because to me my reading of them is it sounded awful lot like the guidelines, doctors about borders the other groups have been following for months now.
ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Right. When I saw them I said to myself hey, this is what I saw when I was in Liberia. Why weren't we doing this all the time? But let us go over what the guidelines are. First of all, no skin exposure, the way that the CDC guidelines were before, it is less room for skin to be exposed. Also, rigorous and repeated training so that it becomes as CDC Director Thomas Frieden put it, like a ritual.
And third, it should be supervised by a trained monitor. And Anderson, this is so important. When I watch people put on this personal protective equipment in Africa, they were supervised by someone who would check and make sure that not an inch of skin was showing.
COOPER: And as they -- I mean Sanjay, you know, was showing us last week the original CDC guidelines about what you could wear. His necklace is still exposed. And when he took off all the stuff, he ended up with, you know, foreign matter on his arm and on his neck.
COHEN: Right. And so that actually covers two deficiencies. Number one, that the neck was showing and the guidelines allowed for that in some cases. And numbers two, that when you take it off you have to be careful because you have gowns that are splattered with -- I mean, I won't get too graphic, but all sorts of stuff. I mean, Ebola patients, you know, by definition they are vomiting, their bodily fluids are coming out and they are coming at the people who are taking of them. So they need to be trained rigorously in how to take this off, so that they don't contaminate themselves.
COOPER: Yeah. I mean it's interesting. Again, I'd like to hear more from the CDC about why they didn't come up with these guidelines sooner. And we're defending their old guidelines.
Elizabeth, stay with us because I do want to bring in two nationally renowned public health experts, Columbia University Dr. Irwin Redlener who's been on this program a number of times. And Dr. William Fischer of the University of North Carolina School of Medicine.
This past June Dr. Fischer traveled to Guinea to work with doctors with out borders. Dr. Fischer let me start with you. As I said you were in Guinea just a couple of months ago working with MSF. These so called new protocols, to you they must look very familiar. Does it surprise you that these weren't the protocols adopted by the CDC early on?
WILLIAM FISCHER, UNC SCHOOL OF MEDICINE: Not necessarily. I mean a lot of organizations had been so focused on personal protective equipment and not as much on the process of wearing them and more importantly taking them off, which I think is a key element, that's not been a part of the discussion. So I'm glad to see those part of the new recommendations.
COOPER: So as far as your concerned taking -- how did taking it off properly is as important almost as what you're actually wearing?
FISCHER: That's exactly right. So we know that the basic mechanism of transmission of Ebola virus is through direct contact between other breaks in your skin or mucus membranes and infected body fluid. And so a lot of different equipment can prevent those body fluids from entering your body.
One of the highest risk for healthcare workers however is removing those clothes, because those clothes as you mentioned before are soiled with vomit, diarrhea and blood. And so they have to be removed very carefully to avoid coming into contact with them.
COOPER: Dr. Redlener, does it surprise you -- I mean I guess from a theoretical standpoint I understand the CDC's earlier guidelines, they were sort of saying, "Well, some people may just have limited contact with Ebola patients. Others are going to have more hands on contact." But when you have nurses who are not that experienced with Ebola or not experienced at all in a room, it seems like, you know, if there's fluid flying around, they're going to go and try to do what they can to help.
IRWIN REDLENER, COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY: Well first of all this is a completely novel experience for the United States of America. This is not a country where this has been endemic at all. And I think there is -- we have to understand that there's certain learning process, that's everybody's going through right now.
There's no particular reason to expect that a nurse in Dallas or anywhere else before we really started paying attention to this would actually know. It brings up this other problem which we've talked about before Anderson, having to do with -- we've cut back all of our training programs for hospital workers in general for disasters and this included.
So it didn't really surprise me that the Dallas Hospital was taken completely off guard. And we have someone pretty untrained nurses dealing with this.
COOPER: I mean, they were the unlucky ones who just have the first patient.
COOPER: You are saying there's a lot of hospitals throughout the United States that if they had to have the first patient they would mostly have the same problem?
REDLENER: I think there's no question in my mind about that. In fact I think we would have similar problems with the emergency room elsewhere. I don't think we'll ever see that again, what happened at the failure to admit him. Mr. Duncan, when he first came to the hospital, and they having to readmit him, a lot of things happened that were absolutely eye openers for most hospitals around the country.
So I don't think we'll see that repeated. The issue though is why not sooner having the guidelines? And I think as I said this is just a matter of -- we're not getting use to having a very exotic and extraordinarily lethal disease here in the United States.
COOPER: But it's interesting. I mean a lot of people who have been very critical to CDC and I totally get the criticism. You know, it's also up to -- these are just guidelines. They can't force anybody to do anything. It's up to the state health officials and the individual hospitals to actually execute them.
REDLENER: Yeah. And, you know, there's two big misconceptions about the CDC's role in responsibility. It is a scientific body that issues guidelines. But the actual implementation happens on a local level by two mechanisms. One is what happens in the hospitals and the CDC really has no control over that. And really what's happening in terms of the public health agencies in Dallas or any other place in the country in the country.
So the -- It's a national resources, CDC, but it's the national implementer. And that's really up to the local authorities.
COOPER: And Elizabeth, you were saying earlier that you were talking to someone at a major hospital, told you that they were doing their Ebola training last week. And you said, "How long have you been doing that?" And they said, "Just started doing that."
COHEN: That's right. I was so surprised to hear that because this is a large and well respected hospital. And they said, "Yeah, we just started our Ebola training last week." And now they are doing it full force because of what happened in Texas.
And Anderson, I think, you know, hospitals have a lot to deal with and the chances that their going to get an Ebola patient are very small. And I think that a lot of hospitals said, "Look, are we really going to invest lots of time in something that chances are we will never have to deal with?" It's not an excuse. But I think that has been the reality.
COOPER: Dr. Fischer, for training, I mean, everybody says, "Look, you can't just have one session. Its got be, you know, repetitive. It's got to be long lasting." How much training you think is necessary? And we were talking about a week?
FISCHER: I think we have to do...
COOPER: Are we talking about, you know, multiple days, every month? What do you think?
FISCHER: I think it has to be repeated as in weekly. And the reason is because with Ebola it's such a -- there's such a narrow margin of error. It's really unforgiving. And where many hospitals and many infection control physicians are actually -- are use to donning barrier protection when taking care of patients with potentially infectious diseases.
The problem is that Ebola is not just in the diarrhea and not just in the blood. It's in every single body fluid. And so that increases your risk of exposure. So you have to get use to wearing those clothes, which can be incredibly restrictive in terms of moving around a room, providing care. And you have to be an expert in getting out of those clothes.
COOPER: Dr. Fischer, appreciate you being on, Dr. Redlener as well. Elizabeth Cohen. Thanks very much.
Let's go next to a remarkably new individual like Dr. Fischer who worked in Guinea. He is now working along side, many others like him. Dr. Steven Hatch. He's an infectious disease specialist volunteering at a clinic in Suakoko, Liberia run by the American Charity International Medical Corps.
And before going he wrote about why he chose perhaps the toughest job in the world today. He said "Why do firefighters run head long to the fire? To put it out, of course. Ebola is not really different and it is my fire along with many other colleagues, I go to put it out."
Dr. Hatch joins us tonight from the clinic in Suakoko. What is like to treat patients, to deal with people wearing that full protective gear? I mean not only physically for you but also just emotionally. I mean, so much of what a doctor does is physical contact with somebody, looking them in the eye, to have that limitation of this essential like a space suit. What is that like?
STEVEN HATCH, INTERNATIONAL MEDICAL CORPS: It's challenging. The patients can not see our faces. And especially on their first 24 hours on the wards that's a terrifying moment for them. Once they actually step outside and, you know, we have lawn chairs for them to sit out in the units. We walk to the areas where we can see them and they can us, so that once we go inside and we're anonymous behind those things, they head our voices and they know what we look like when were not in protective gear.
And ironically one of the things that we do is we do touch our patients in the unit. And it's the only place in Liberia where there's no prescription against that. You can touch your patients when your in protective gear and yet when were outside and I'm among my colleagues I don't touch any one.
COOPER: Have you ever worked on a virus like this, I mean, that has such a high mortality rate?
HATCH: I haven't worked on a viral infection like this that has the potential to spread to anybody and with a high mortality rate. No, I've never seen anything like this.
COOPER: I mean, if you don't mind just a personal question. How do you deal with the level of fatalities that you're seeing? The death that you are surrounded by?
HATCH: One of the things that's been very gratifying about working in our treatment unit thus far is that we see survivors. And we do see a stream of death. What we haven't seen thus far is a (inaudible) death. And so when we see people die its balanced by the fact that we're seeing a lot of people in -- on our positive side who we know have the virus and they're living through it and they're living through some of the worse event.
COOPER: You earlier describe this as a war. That's how you see this?
HATCH: Metaphors are always dangerous. But this does seem an apt metaphor in this case.
COOPER: And do you feel like you're winning?
HATCH: Today was tough day. You are asking on a day when we actually admitted a lot of people who were relatives of our current patients. So it was a bit of a deep breathing exercise for us. I can not say which way things are going right now and whether were winning the battle or not. But I think that this is something that we must do not only for the people of Liberia but for -- all people around the world because this problem has the potential to spread and metastasize to every country on earth.
COOPER: Dr. Steve Hatch, I really admire what you're doing. Thank you for talking to us.
HATCH: Thanks Anderson, I appreciate it.
COOPER: A quick reminder, you can set your DVRs. You can watch 360 whenever you like and see more interviews like that. Millions of dollars are being poured into Ebola research. But tonight we're investigating some disturbing allegations about research for another deadly virus.
Coming up, how promising research toward an AIDS vaccine turn into allegations that the researcher made the whole thing up with millions of tax payer dollars behind it. We're keeping them on us, next.
COOPER: Welcome back. As the world tries to come to grips with Ebola and the CDC releases new guidelines on protecting healthcare workers. There's a real shocker in the fight against another virus, HIV. It's about money that should have been used in the effort, in the fight. And its really a cautionary tale for right now because the same way the hundreds of millions of dollars have been pledge recently for Ebola research, billions have spent over the years for HIV by private individuals, charitable foundations and of course the Federal Government.
Now this report is about 14 million of those dollars in hope for a stunning scientific advancement in the surge for an AIDS vaccine.
Instead, it has turned into an even more stunning allegation of a $14 million fraud against the government. Once considered the best hope yet for an HIV vaccine, federal prosecutors are claiming a researcher at a university lab made up his results and may have done it just to keep Federal money flowing. Keep in mind is the possibly breakthrough of cure, not to mention your Federal tax dollars are gone. Here's Senior Investigative Correspondent, Drew Griffin.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DREW GRIFFIN, CNN SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: it was the kind of breakthrough that made headlines. An Iowa State University lab, reporting it was on think verge of an HIV vaccine. Rabbits infected with HIV were showing an incredible reduction in the virus. It was a pathway to a cure says the University of Washington's Dr. Ferris Fang.
FERRIS FANG, UNIVERSITY OF WASHINGTON: This was in rabbits but the hope was this kind of immune response and the way that these scientists were preparing their vaccine could lead to an effective vaccine for humans.
GRIFFIN: $14 million in federal grant money flow to support the research then a shock, the excitement, the possible AIDS vaccine. The results in those rabbits, it was all a fraud. This man, Iowa State University Researcher Assistant Professor Dong-Pyou Han had made up the results. Contaminating the infected rabbit blood with healthy human blood making it appear the rabbits were developing an immunity to AIDS. The alleged fraud uncovered in a scientific trap.
Researchers at Harvard trying to verify Han's findings were the ones who discovered human blood was mixed in with rabbit blood. The findings according to the criminal complaint were secretly given to the National Institutes of Health and Iowa State's top researcher and Han's boss Dr. Michael Cho. It was Cho prosecutors say who setup an elaborate trap trying to determine who on his staff was faking results. He asked for additional blood samples and the samples supplied by Dr. Han was contaminated.
$14 million of federal taxpayer money supporting Han's research has been wasted. And the Federal Government has charged Han with fraud.
NICHOLAS A. KLINEFELDT, U.S. ATTORNEY, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF IOWA: Just because somebody has a PhD, just because somebody's involved in the scientific community, doesn't mean that they're going to be treated necessarily, any different than any one else who commits a criminal offense.
GRIFFIN: Iowa State University fired Han immediately and a spokesperson says the school is trying to restore a reputation for integrity that Han's phony research destroyed. JOHN MCCARROLL, IOWA STATE UNIVERSITY: It's not the kind of headline that you want to see that this occurred in your institution. I think the reaction here initially and even later on was disbelief, surprise, shock, disappointment.
GRIFFIN: As a tax payer you may be wondering something else. Where is the $14 million in taxpayer funded research money? In short it's gone. According to Retraction Watch, a group that tracks research fraud, scientist who fake research rarely go to prison and hardly ever are forced to pay back taxpayers.
Dr. Dong-Pyou Han who now lives in Cleveland, supposedly with his parents issued an apology before he entered a not guilty plea.
"I wish foolish, coward and not frank", writes in a letter. "My misconduct is not done in order to hurt someone." But he remains elusive. At an apartment listed as his address there is no answer. We contacted through his cell phone, the ones respected Dr. Han had little to say.
DONG-PYOU HAN: Hello.
GRIFFIN: Dr. Han?
GRIFFIN: Yes, this is Drew Griffin with CNN calling. How are you today?
HAN: I'm fine.
GRIFFIN: I wonder if we could -- we're doing a story on the whole incident that happened in Iowa. I'm trying to get a comment from you for a story that we answer producing.
HAN: I'm sorry. I cannot tell you about (inaudible). I'm sorry.
GRIFFIN: Do you have any explanations as to why you did it?
HAN: You know, I'm sorry, I can't tell you. Sorry.
GRIFFIN: The University of Washington's Dr. Fang says fraud in scientific research remains extremely rare and there's a good reason especially when the research involves alleged breakthroughs in medical cures.
FANG: The person who committed this act according to the information that I have really didn't think things through, because I completely agree once you get everybody excited about something that you have, that's a break through for something like AIDS vaccine.
The end of the road is going to mean that this vaccine is going to be develop and given to other animals, tested by other laboratories, given to people and if doesn't work it's all going to fall apart. So this kind of fraud eventually had to fail. GRIFFIN: If found guilty in all four accounts against him. The government says, Han faces up to 20 years in prison in a million dollar fine.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: And Drew join us now. I mean this is so terrible, it's such a big case. Do we know how much of this fraudulent research goes on? I mean is this common?
GRIFFIN: It's a good question Anderson. It's hard to tell because we only know what being caught. And by those numbers, the numbers of those being caught, it appears small. They took a look over the past 20 years, how many retractions have taken place and some of these grants by the National Institute of Health. It adds up to about $58 million fraudulent in research that was caught.
That just one percent of the NIH budget for that time, so it's not huge. But again, I caution you, that's only what they're catching.
COOPER: Well, good reporting Drew, thanks very much. As always you can find out more in this in whole a lot more at cnn.com.
Coming up next tonight, more breaking news. Fresh charges in a 9 years old case against the leading suspect in Hannah Graham disappearance as authorities try to identify remains that were found over the weekend. Are they the remains of Hannah Graham? With late details after the break.
COOPER: Breaking news tonight, new charges tonight against Jesse Matthew, who's suspect in disappearance of course of University Virginia sophomore Hannah Graham. They're in connection with a sexual assault case that police say forensically link him to another female college student who vanished from the same area as Graham. The 2005 incident happen in the City of Fairfax in Northern Virginia.
The charges today, one count each of abduction with intensity to defile, sexual assault and attempted murder. Meantime to the south, authorities near Charlottesville are working and determine whether human remains found over the weekend are those of Hannah Graham.
With us now is Coy Barefoot, Host and Executive Producer of inside Charlottesville. Cloy the remains where located just over 11 miles from the mall where Hannah Graham was last spotted. What do you know about the area that they were founded?
COY BAREFOOT, HOST AND EXEC.PRODUCER, INISIDE CHARLOTTESVILLE: So this part of Albemarle County is down Old Lynchburg road. This is a two lane country road that winds through the woods and up and down the hill. It is a very remote rural heavily wooded part of county. Like you said just over 11 miles from the downtown mall where Hannah Graham was last seen in the early morning hours of Saturday September 13th.
This is a two and half ache parcel on which is located, a modest three bedroom house, about 1,500 square feet and then nearby is a little 600 square foot cottage.
Both of these buildings have been empty for sometime, they're rentals and they've been empty for sometime. The property has been listed and delisted a number of times. The remains where found on Saturday in the woods at the back of this parcel and what's been describe as dry creek bed. And I talk to guys who are on the seen Anderson, and it's just a gruesome, gruesome seen of skeletal human remains.
COOPER: And understand, this is close to a home where Jesse Matthew, who is man being held on Hannah's disappearance used to live? Is that the case?
BAREFOOT: Yeah. I can confirm that Jesse Matthew grow up in this part of Albemarle County. His mom house is four miles up the road. He has a number of friends in this area. And this is just five miles from where the skeletal remains of Morgan Harrington where found. Now, Morgan was a 20 year old Virginia Texas student who came here to Charlottesville to see a Metallica concert at UVA on October 17th 2009.
She went missing that night, her remains where found on a farm in a field 7.8 miles away on Anchorage farm, just south of Charlottesville. But only five miles from where we believe the remains of Hannah Graham were found on Saturday.
COOPER: And also, I mean, as I mention say Jesse Matthew was indicted for that 2005 sexual assault.
BAREFOOT: That's right. That took place on September 24th 2005 just off of Germantown road in Northern Virginia. Fairfax of course is the suburb Washington D.C. A 26 year old woman was jumped, she said that a large black man pick her up, carried her to the back of this little small subdivision of townhouses into a wooded area, where he brutally raped her and was beating her to death.
Jesse Matthew today was charge with abduction with the intended to file this woman. He was charge with raping this woman. And he was also charge with capital murder. That's heighten murder, that's murder that you attempt to commit here while you're also committing another felony, in this case rape.
COOPER: Yeah. Just a horrible development. Coy Barefoot, I appreciate your reporting for us. Thanks very much.
We have more in the possibility -- no, official, it is this county that Hannah Graham's disappearance, the 2005 incident that we just talk about and other, may be part of even larger pattern of tragedies there. Randi Kaye looks at that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORREPSPONDENT: Liberty University, October 2002, a female student calls police at 4:26 a.m. to report a rape.
MICHAEL DOUCETTE, LYNCHBURG PROSECUTOR: According to the report she called the Lynchburg police department. KAYE: Lynchburg prosecutor Michael Doucette didn't work the case but has reviewed the file. He says the male student, names as the attacker is Jesse Matthew. The same Jesse Matthew accused in the disappearance of UVA student Hannah Graham. Now, 12 years later.
Doucette says Matthew cooperated with police, he even gave them a statement. But was never charge due to lack of evidence and no eye witnesses here at the arena where the allege attack happened.
Until then Jesse Matthew had a good thin going here at Liberty University where he was enrolled from 2000 to 2002. He reportedly had a football scholarship. Why Matthew left after the rape allegation is still unclear. What is clear is soon after that in January 2003, Jesse Matthew enrolled here Christopher Newport University in Newport News Virginia, about three hours away from liberty. And it wouldn't be long before we would face allegation of sexual assault on this campus to.
This time it was September 7th 2003, just 11 months after Matthew was accuse of rape at his previous school. Paul Trible is the University's President.
PAUL TRIBLE, PRESIDENT, CHRISTOPHER NEWPORT UNIVERSITY: A complaint was filed by a student. It was thoroughly investigated by our campus police.
KAYE: Trible tells us the victim, a student chose not to press charges thought she did take part in campus disciplinary hearing testifying against Matthew. The school wouldn't divulge the result of those hearing but Jesse Matthew was gone soon after.
A spoke man for Christopher Newport University says Jesse Matthew played football here for the CN New Captains from mid-August to mid- September 2003. He left the University about a month later. The school also says, students don't usually leave the second month in the semester or leave the football team so quickly.
And now Matthew's behavior is raising eyebrows off campus at the Newport News police department.
CHIEF RICHARD MYERS, NEWPORT NEWS POLICE: The timeline, the proximity of when he was occupied here is about the only length we have.
KAYE: Chief Richard Myers is reviewing all missing person's cases that occurred while Matthew was attending college here, including the disappearance of 24 year old Autumn Day. She was last seen shopping this food line grocery store on July 24th 2003. Less than two months later 31 year old Sophia Rivera also disappeared. Just five days after she vanished, September 12 2003 Jesse Matthew left the Universities football team. A month later he was gone from the school for good.
Randi Kaye, CNN, Newport News Virginia.
(END VIDEO CLIP) COPPER: Well, we'll keep following that. Just ahead, potentially exclusive leaks about the investigation to Michael Brown fatal shooting. But forensic evidence reveals about the allege struggle between the teen and the officer who shoot him.
COOPER: In Crime & Punishment tonight, nearly leaked details about the investigation to the fatal shooting of 18 year old Michael Brown are adding to the already high-tension in Ferguson Missouri. As, you know, grand jury has been hearing testimony in secret about what happen when the unarmed teenager cross-pass with Officer Darren Wilson on street on August.
The details that were leaked concern crucial forensic evidence that jury will weigh in deciding whether to indict Officer Wilson. Brown's family and many other people in Ferguson had made it clear that they won't settle for anything other than an indictment.
Sara Sidner joins me now with the latest. So this new information about this blood inside Officer Wilson police cruiser. Whose blood was it exactly? And where specifically was it found? Do we you know?
SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we were hearing from our sources and basically they said that there were blood elements found on three different places. One on Officer Wilson's blood -- gun and that was Brown's blood. Brown's blood also found on Officer Wilson's uniform and inside of the police car. What these all tells us really is that there was some sort of a struggle that went on inside that car.
The divergent though is there are witnesses who say, "Well, that actually was because the officer was being aggressive toward Brown and trying to pulling him into car." And then you have Wilson saying something else, saying that actually he was being attack by Brown.
So you have that different in testimony there. But certainly this is forensic evidence that we haven't heard of before and we knew there was going to be a lot of evidence to that this grand jury was going to take a look at and now we're hearing some of that trickle out. It is certainly something that people are talking about here. Anderson.
COOPER: What remains pretty much unclear is what happened outside the car? Perhaps in some sort of second stage in the encounter. Some people say Michael Brown may have been trying to surrender. A number of people have said that his hands were up at various levels.
SIDNER: That's right. And so that forensic evidence doesn't tell us anything about the other part of this that everyone has been protesting about. You have lots of witnesses coming forward saying that he did surrender, that he was putting his hand up, that he put his hands straight up in the air and that he was still fire upon. However, you have other saying that he was still coming toward the officer at that point, the officer also saying the same thing.
And so where seeing a lot of these. And we apologize. Our light has just gone off. But you're hearing these different things. But forensic evidence doesn't lie, but it has nothing to do with what happens afterward. And the grand jury has to look at that as well. Anderson.
COOPER: Has there been reaction tonight about this new information that's come out? (inaudible) their reaction?
SIDNER: Absolutely, yeah. Absolutely. People are talking about it. There have been protests here. We just saw two people who have been detained, who were in the street and detained by police as well. We can also tell you that people are agitated by it, very agitated by it, because they believe that this tell them that there isn't going to be justice and they think that justice is that Officer Wilson should be arrested.
The justice system has to go through its course, but they believe this is an indication. They're not going to see what they want to see, which his indictment.
COOPER: Sara Sidner, thanks very much.
Joining me now, CNN Legal Analyze and Criminal Defense Attorney, Mark Geragos. Also David Klinger a Criminal Justice Professor at University of Missouri Saint Louise. Mark, well first of all, what do you make at this new reporting, blood inside the police car? Does it support Officer Wilson's version of events, though as the attorney for Michael Browns family told me in our last hour, Brown's friend also claimed there was altercation? So does one side benefit more than the other at this point?
MARK GERAGOS CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Not necessarily because we don't know enough yet. Blood in the car doesn't mean anything. It depends on whether it's splatter type of evidence, whether it's smeared. He could literally -- he being Wilson, could have Michael Brown's blood on him. It could then transfer if he went back into the car and Michael Brown's bloods in car or on Wilson's uniform. It doesn't necessarily game over for one side or another.
It really will depend on what that blood looks like, whether it's a blood transfer or whether it's a direct splatter. That having been said, it certainly at least initially and the reason people were upset is because it would tend to support Wilson's story and I think that you're going to have to do is you're going to have somebody like Warner Smith (ph) or Sarah Walkter (ph), somebody like that who is going to analyze this evidence put it in the -- kind of the terms of the story that Wilson told and then say, "Yes, this makes sense," or, "No, this doesn't makes sense."
COOPER: Did Michael Brown's family, you know, and again I talked to Attorney Anthony Gray earlier in the last hour, they said that whatever happened in the car, by the car, that should be considered separately from the final shots that were fired, when the final confrontation. Do you see a distinction between those two events? Should they be evaluated separately?
DAVID KLINGER, FORMER LAPD OFFICER: Yes and no. The yes part is that, if you got a situation where a deadly force is legitimate, authorized, appropriate, whatever term you want to use at one given point in an encounter, that doesn't mean that you continue to use deadly force necessarily.
So what happened in the vehicle is not germane to, immediately germane to a decision to shoot outside the vehicle. However, it is germane in terms of what the officer's perceptions are.
Let us say that Officer Wilson's basic story that has been told is that he was insulted inside the vehicle. Mr. Brown tried to take his gun. In self-defense, he fired, Mr. Brown left. Then Mr. Brown comes back at him.
So a police officer is thinking, "Hey, he already tried to take my gun away once. I'm not going to let him get on me again." And therefore what happened in the vehicle is very relevant to what the officer's mindset was and therefore the decision that he made to fire.
Now, that's hypothetical. That's conjecture. I don't know, and what have been saying from the beginning we have to wait for the evidence. And so when people are upset because some evidence supports the police officer's version of events, what they should be doing is they should be saying, "Wait a second, our job as citizens it to let the justice system work. And if the evidence doesn't fit with our narrative then we have to shift our narrative. We have to be honest." And if we're not willing to look at what the evidence is showing then, what is the point of having our justice system.
COOPER: Well, Mark what is it say you that that evidence is leaking out of the grand jury, which, you know, supposedly secret?
GERAGOS: It's supposedly secret. But remember its secret in the prosecutors, not supposed to be let it out. But the witnesses can let it out. They can talk about. They can talk about it to their lawyer, even though their lawyers not allowed in there. And I think that frankly you always see grand jury leaks. I mean they're not supposed to be but it happens.
I think this is one of the reasons that this never should have gone by way of a grand jury. I think that to some degree that's cop out, but that's what they decided to do. They think that they insulated themselves. And when I say, they the prosecutor has by doing it this way. But the problem is look what happens. Both sides are going to be dissatisfied no matter what happens, because if it turns out that they indict. The officer is going to urge, "Well, of course they indicted. They had the Star Chamber proceeding. There was no cross examination and there was so much overwhelming public pressure to indict the grand jury had no other choice."
If they don't indict, the grand jury says we're not going to, and that happens quite a bit police officers because they get a certain edge if you will, then there you're going to have unfortunately great civil unrest, because people are going to say, "Well what the heck, we didn't see any of this evidence. We don't know what happened. This is really, you know, this is ridiculous." And there's not going to be any legitimacy to it. COOPER: Right. And David, I'm in the situation where it comes down to Officer Wilson's word versus the world of Michael Brown's friend, Dorian Johnson, do grand juries tend to give police officers the benefit of the doubt?
KLINGER: I think they do. But I think there's a lot of other evidence besides the testimonial evidence of the two principles that we're aware of. Number one, there's all sort of other eye witnesses and we have no idea what they're saying. And I think more importantly is what is the nature of this blood evidence, as Mr. Geragos pointed out, is it blood splat or is it a high velocity missed, is it low velocity drops, is it smear. It could be a bunch of thing.
COOPER: Right. And we don't know anything (inaudible).
KLINGER: Another thing I think -- Another thing I think we need to understand, my understanding is that this isn't grand jury leak. This is a statement from someone in the federal government who is leaking. Taking about there's not going to be a civil rights indictment and or civil rights case at the federal level. I think that's very, very, important because that's very different from a grand jury leak.
COOPER: David Klinger, I appreciate your being on us, always. Mark Geragos as well.
Up next, polices say murder suspect leads them to six other bodies found in North West Indiana. The latest of a impossible serial killer case, next.
COOPER: Authorities in North West Indiana say they have found the bodies of seven women since Friday, lead to them by 43 year old man who is not in custody. He told police that he "missed up" by killing woman in Hammond, Indiana. And that was just the being. Polices say some of the cases may go back 20 years. Miguel Marquez reports in what lead police to the suspect.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Afrikka Hardy, perhaps the last alleged victim of Darren Deon Vann. Police say Hardy and a friend were running an escort business from a motel 6 in Hammond, Indiana, using backpage.com to solicit clients. A man who is back page profile identified him as big boy appetite arranged to meet Hardy at the motel alone, when Hardy's friend didn't hear from her, she got worried, calling and texting, when she finally heard back she knew it was not Afrikka Hardy responding.
JOHN DOUGHTY, HAMMOND CHIEF POLICE: The female facilitator in the transaction attempted the contact Ms. Hardy and was provided suspicions text responses that she believed to be from the suspect while he was still inside the motel room
MARQUEZ: Afrikka Hardy, 19 years old found strangled, nude in the bathtub, signs of a struggle, of broken finger nail on the floor, the beds move away from the wall, next to the toilets, a pillow with blood on its.
Afrikka Hardy's mother in shock.
LORI TOWNSEND, VICTIM'S MOTHER: She was my rock. She was my best friend. She was my everything. When I didn't have anything, she was all I had.
MARQUEZ: Hardy's death, those few text messages lead police to a phone number for Vann and surveillance video of the car he was driving. Both lead them to his home in neighboring Gary Indiana.
DOUGHTY: Mr. Vann told the police officer at the scene that he had messed up by committing the crime in Hammond and was surprised in how quickly he was located after the incident.
MARQUEZ: Vann, say police admitted killing Afrikka Hardy whose escort name was Octavia. He told police when the sex got rough, she fought him and he strangled her, first with his hands then an extension cord. He says he used white gloves during the murder, placed her body in the bathtub then drove to his sister's home in Gary.
DOUGHTY: During the subsequent interrogation of Mr. Vann, he admitted his involvement in the Hammond incident and had expressed an interest in notifying police of other criminal incidence he was involved with.
MARQUEZ: Those so called other incidence were victims, six of them. Vann eventually led police to them all in Gary, four locations total. All of them found in boarded up abandoned homes. The search now on for more possible victims in Indiana and police in Austin Texas where Vann was convicted of aggravated rape in 2009 say, they are now coming through cold cases and missing person spouse to see if Darren Deon Vann may have struck again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Miguel joins me now. So this man has been charged in the death of the model -- excuse me in the death of the model and more charges are expected. Are there similarities among the other among -- excuse me, the death at the motel? Are there similarities among the victims aside from locations where they were found?
MARQUEZ: Well, it does appear that several of them, if not all of them were advertising on backpage.com, perhaps as escorts and that's where they came across this individual sadly and shocking perhaps only one of those six individuals was listed as missing since October 8th. Police are only now starting to understand how exactly most of them died. Two of them we know it did die from strangulation. The other one is still pending, Anderson.
COOPER: Miguel, thanks very much. There is a lot more happening tonight. Susan Hendricks is at 360 Bulletin. Susan.
SUSAN HENDRICKS: Anderson, breaking news, ISIS fighters launched 15 nearly simultaneous attacks on Kurdish forces in Northern Iraq. The terrorist group controls more than a dozen cities in Iraq despite ongoing air strikes by the United States and its Arab Allies. Well the accused ring leader of the 2012 attack on the U.S. Diplomatic complex in Benghazi Libya pleads not guilty in the Washington Federal Courtroom. The suspect faces 18 charges including murder. Four Americans were killed in the attack, including Ambassador Christopher Stevens.
And Monica Lewinsky is back, the former White House intern who famously had an affair within President Bill Clinton, joined Twitter today and he gave an emotional speech in Philadelphia. She is vowing to end cyber bullying. She also said all these years have been painful.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MONICA LEWISNSKY: It feels like punch in the gut, as if a stranger walked up to you on the street and punched you, hard and sharp in the gut. I would go online, reading a paper or see on TV, people referring to me as tramp, slut, whore, tart, bimbo, floozy, even spy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HENDRICKS: So there is Monica explaining kind of what she went through at Forbes Summit. Anderson.
COOPER: Susan, thanks very much. Up next, sad news tonight, breaking news, we alluring a legendary fashion designer Oscar de la Renta, has died. We'll take a look back at his life and truly extraordinary career. Next.