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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Protests for Third Straight Night
Aired December 5, 2014 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. Thank you for joining us.
For the third straight night, protesters are out in force and out in new places as well tonight. Miami, Florida, for one. People now out on city streets. Just a short time, they were all over major interstate, interstate i-95.
Also, protests on the road to Harvard University, just outside Boston, Cleveland, Ohio as well. They are back on the streets of Chicago tonight as we saw last night. Major demonstrations in Washington, D.C. And of course, here in New York city.
Night three of protests in the death of Eric Garner in a grand jury's decision not to indict the police officer who put him in a chokehold. As we saw last night, the numbers rising as the night goes on.
This is Times Square shortly after we signed off last night. Large crowds and unlike earlier in the evening, police making quite a few arrests taking dozens of people into custody mainly on disorderly conduct charges. More than 200 in all citywide before the night was over.
These are always fluid, organic evolving situation which is why we are on the air for the next two hours tonight live. There's a lot of developments to talk about in the case. We obtained the full autopsy report today. There were legal developments including word from the local NBC affiliate, WNBC, that the Staten Island district attorney did not give the grand jury the option of considering a lesser charge against Officer Daniel Pantaleo.
Again, tonight a lot happening as we speak. A lot changing minute by minute with our correspondents as always in the thick of it.
Tonight, I want to go first to our Jason Carroll outside of Macy's department store where things have been happening a lot.
Jason, where are you exactly and what are you seeing?
JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we were outside and then we came inside. As you can imagine, Anderson, right here at the Macy's store, demonstrators staged one of those all too familiar die- ins right in the middle of the store.
It was quite a moment, as you can imagine. You had thousands of Christmas shoppers here at the store. Usually you think of Macy's of the thanksgiving parade, but not tonight as hundreds of these protesters came to these front doors here, staged a die-in. They stood here. They chanted for several minutes. Now they're just making their way back out the store.
Earlier in the night, Anderson, they also did one of this die-ins at the Apple store right on Fifth Avenue. When I spoke to one of the demonstrators in terms of what's next, they said they are going to continue marching. Right now, they go back out to 6th avenue where we are. We are going to continue to follow them as they make their way probably towards Times Square. It's tough to be sure. They said were taking this really on the fly, Anderson, in terms of what they do and what they do next. I know they meet up with another group of protesters and those two groups merge.
But you can imagine what a moment it was first at the Apple store. This is a protest that started at Columbus circle and then the Apple store. And so see these hundreds of people walking to the store as people are standing to a shocked look on many of the shoppers' faces as this was happening. And then for them to march down Fifth Avenue passed some New York's most iconic and expensive shops, and then (INAUDIBLE) Macy's, and then to walk in the middle of the store to stage a die-in there. It was quite a moment -- Anderson.
COOPER: So Jason, about how -- you said some are hundred -- I mean, that is that's about how big the crowd is right now? And when they go in the store, what exactly are they doing? You said they has a die- in. How long, for instance, in Macy's, how long were they staying inside Macy's?
CARROLL: Yes, it's remarkable because the police are following them as they go along here. The managers were somewhat overwhelmed as I would say are approximately 200 of these demonstrators filed into the store. And then what they did was they just started to lie down in the middle of the store. At first, chanting and then stopping for a moment to honor Michael Brown, to honor his death. As you know, his body stayed there in the street for quite some time. That's why you see this die-ins happening over and over last night, the night before and again tonight.
In terms of what they're going to do next, perhaps march through Time square. Will they stop at another store? It's really anyone's guess at this point.
COOPER: All right, fascinating stuff. Jason Carroll.
Again, this is really, this is day three of this, now night three of this in New York City. And for those of us who are long time residents here, really, have never seen anything like this in the city of New York. These large protests over the last two nights prior, particularly, moving so fluidly throughout the city without permits. Just on the move constantly in different parts of the city at one time.
In Chicago now, our Kyung Lah is following protests there. And we have seen last night there were confrontations between police and protesters as police tried to get protesters off one of the, I believe, it was lake shore drive.
Kyung, where are you tonight in Chicago and how's it going?
KYUNG LAH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, you can see a lot of the backs of people's heads because we're walking quite quickly down Michigan avenue. If you're familiar with Chicago, this is the area called the magnificent mile. It's a huge shopping district filled with stores like Sachs and Neiman Marcus.
I want to swing it our very quickly and you will see. This is just one small part of the protest. A lot of people here walking and just like in New York, you are hearing the same chant. And then the police are on the street right next to them, walking in traffic, biking in traffic trying to keep them off of Michigan avenue.
Yesterday, they had shut down parts of Michigan avenue, parts of Lake Shore drive. They're trying to stick to the sidewalks now, but a very energetic group, Anderson. They've been walking for almost six hours and playing a bit of cat and mouse with the police. The police don't want them to disrupt the shopping area. Sorry, I'm running out of breath. And what they are trying to do is try to contain them to the sidewalks.
COOPER: OK. Kyung Lah, I appreciate that.
And earlier, while Kyung was talking, we have been showing on the right-hand side of the screen, previously some images from last night, a slight confrontation that seemed didn't really seem to result in many arrests. This is the confrontation we saw last night. I believe it was Lake Shore drive.
Our Kyung Lah was there last night as well. Police ended up basically trying to push the protesters off the road to allow traffic to get through. And that is basically how (INAUDIBLE) kind of pushing and shoving for a while. And then police actually used their bicycles to kind of parade a makeshift barrier.
There's protests tonight in Washington, D.C. as last night, Athena Jones is out with protesters there.
Athena, what's it like in Washington?
ATHENA JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Anderson.
Well, like last night, this crowd is large. Several hundred strong and it's moving fast. We already covered a large part of the city. And they're now chanting off the sidewalks into the streets trying to get more people to join in, trying to get the bystanders to join in to this protest.
But I've got to tell you, Anderson, amidst of all this noise, amidst all of this chanting, there are some poignant moments as well. There was a young black man who was carrying a sign that says I could be next. Quite simple, I could be next. That is the kind of emotion that we are seeing expressed here. I just talked with a young black woman, a Yale graduate who was in
tears as she told me that she said I'm in pain. And when I come out here, I realize that I'm not the only one who is in pain.
And so, these are some of the poignant moments that we are capturing tonight as well in addition to these chants for justice and for peace -- Anderson.
COOPER: Athena Jones in Washington, D.C.
Again, the protest is nationwide. The spark of course were, of course, is local to New York.
I want to bring in a New York City councilwoman, Deborah Rose, who represents northern Staten Island where the borough where Eric Garner was killed.
Councilwoman Rose, thanks very much for being with us.
I'm wondering, as you see these images of protest in New York City, what goes through your mind?
DEBORAH ROSE (D), NEW YORK CITY COUNCIL: It's actually encouraging to me because to see so many young people who recognize that this is a national crisis, they're responding to the fact that their lives have very little meaning. And so, they are out there expressing the desire to ensure that something changes, that there's transparency, accountability, and that they can be safe in their communities and not be at risk of overly aggressive policing.
COOPER: You know, clearly, last night, there were huge numbers in New York City. It looks like the numbers are down tonight. Several hundred where Jason Carroll was. We are trying to see how many other demonstrations if others do pop up tonight.
Where does it go from here? Because Jeffrey Toobin, our legal analyst, was on last night said that, you know, after a while, protests tend to peter out unless there is certain demands people want, unless there's a call for action with some specifics. At this point, are you concerned that it will peter out and what is the change that people are hoping for, do you think?
ROSE: This is actually the catalyst. This is the catalyst that is propelling us into the new or the next civil rights movement. And so, their voices need to be heard. And it's just the first step because of their voices, because of the numbers, because of the visceral reaction that they've had, it has stimulated government to change, to look at changes.
We saw the police Commissioner Bratton definitely say that police officers need to be retrained. That they are going to find the money for body cameras. There are legislators who are talking about the grand jury process and changes to that. So it is the catalyst.
COOPER: Do you believe that change has already begun?
ROSE: I believe that there has been some change. I believe that as a result of the fact that they have been peaceful but loud, they've been angry, and they've been very articulate about what their needs and what their fears are.
And so, yes, I do, because we saw the police commissioner say that he was going to mandate retraining for all of the police officers, that the mayor said he is going to find money for body cameras. And we are talking about having the grand jury unseal the decision, unseal, something that hadn't been done before.
COOPER: One of Mr. Garner's daughters was on this program last night. And said that she had been out in Staten Island at the scene where he died, protesting for a long time. Sometimes every day, day after day. And that the reaction she got from many passersby in Staten Island, she found to be a negative reaction which contrasted from what she was seeing in images from other boroughs. I'm wondering how this is playing out on Staten Island, which is, you know, more white, more conservative than the other boroughs in New York.
ROSE: You know, what has happened in Staten Island is that there are communities that have been the victims of overly aggressive policing. They've been the victims of broken windows in excess, whereas there are communities on Staten Island where broken windows is embraced because the policing of it has not been --
COOPER: When you refer to broken windows, just for viewers who do not understand, the idea -- it's a policing idea that you go after quality of life crimes because --
ROSE: Low level crimes.
COOPER: Low level crimes which is what Mr. Garner was accused of selling loose cigarettes, as a way to drop the crime rate overall. That will have -- if you go after the broken windows in the community, it will have a trickledown effect on crime stats overall.
ROSE: And it does. And it can be expedited in a way that is fair and is beneficial to the community. But what we've seen is an overly aggressive response to very small infractions. In fact, they're misdemeanors. Mr. Garner was accused of selling loose cigarettes, when in fact on that day, he was not selling loose cigarettes. He had just broke up a fight between two young people and was standing on the corner. And was approached, and demanded that no more. Enough is enough. Why are you constantly approaching me and arresting me, when I'm not, at that moment, he was not doing anything.
COOPER: Do you believe he should, had he been -- if he was selling loose cigarettes, do you think is that something somebody should be arrested for? I mean, it seems like if it was a different police officer, maybe if tension hadn't ratcheted up for whatever reason among the people who did, a summons -- in another case, a summons might have been handed out, a ticket might have another case, a ticket might have been handed out. ROSE: Absolutely, Anderson. It's about discretion and the officers
using their discretion. It is not and it did not justify, especially killing him, for selling loose cigarettes if in fact that's what he was doing. This is an example of the overkill, no pun intended, but the overkill when they approach certain communities in regard to low level crime.
COOPER: Do you believe race played a role in the interaction that led to Mr. Garner's death?
ROSE: I think what played a real role is that they felt that Mr. Garner had a history and they were aware of it. He had been arrest on other occasions. And what happened was they have to be accountable for productivity.
COOPER: Productivity within the police department.
ROSE: Productivity within the police department.
Yes. And so, I think knowing his past, they felt that here, we can get an easy arrest and -- because Mr. Garner never resisted arrest previously. And on that day, he was trying to say to them, there's nothing going on here. Leave me alone and I've had enough, back off.
COOPER: Are you also concerned about the EMT response that you saw? Because it seems like when the EMT personnel showed up, at least in the video that we've seen, really nothing was done other than feeling his pulse.
ROSE: And if you look at it, it wasn't even properly, according to procedure, that they could not feel his pulse at that location with the fingers that she used. But yes, and that's what was amazing to me about the grand jury decision. That no one was indicted, that the EMS came and they didn't administer CPR. There's something grossly wrong with that. And he had been saying he could not breathe, he could not breathe, and for them to come and not administer CPR also is an indictment on their lack of humanity.
COOPER: Councilwoman Rose, I appreciate you being with us tonight. Thank you very much.
As always, we are going to be following this for the next two hours as we have the last two nights, the extraordinary scenes that we have been seeing playing out in the city and around the country. So will you set your DVR so you can watch 360 whenever you want.
We are going to continue to bring you the latest on the demonstration as they evolve. And we will analyze all the new developments, legal, medical, political with our team of experts as our extended 360 coverage continues.
COOPER: We are showing you the scene n Chicago, silence among the protesters on the streets. Let's listen in.
(VIDEO CLIP PLAYING)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, everybody.
COOPER: A moment of silence there in Chicago. We have seen moments like that here in New York last night. Protests in cities around the country tonight. Demonstrators also on the streets of Miami. There's New York but they are on the left-hand side of your screen in Washington, Cleveland, and in other cities as well.
I want to go to Jason Carroll who is in midtown Manhattan.
Jason, last we saw your protesters had actually gone into Macy's gone to sort of what they what they call a die-in there and now have left as well. I want to show the video to our viewers of the moment inside Macy's. I'm just going to roll on in now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CROWD: I can't breathe. I can't breathe. I can't breathe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Jason, you were saying there were several hundred protesters, as many as 700 who had gone inside Macy's.
CARROLL: It was incredible. It was an absolutely incredible moment as you can imagine, Anderson, to walk in the middle of that store and to see all of those demonstrators there and the shocked look of shoppers who were there as well. The people working there, just trying to figure out what's going on as they marched in there and chant, I can't breathe. The same thing they're now chanting out here as we cross over on 42nd street heading towards Times square eventually.
The demonstrators say they will march towards grand central, perhaps stage another die-in there. I can tell you as we are marching down 42nd, the police (INAUDIBLE) are going to handle on the crowd try to keep them off the street, on the sidewalk. Took two people into custody who were not complying with what they said.
At this point, we are partially in the street, but not obstructing traffic. That much at least not at this point. So these demonstrators -- I'm not seeing the same numbers that we've seen out here in the past. The numbers are definitely smaller but the passion is definitely still here as well -- Anderson.
COOPER: And Jason, I mean, a, I'm wondering how much of that is accounted for by the weather. I understand it's been raining a lot. How much of that might be just be the kind of people who after two nights of protesting have decided not to. But do you know how is this protest is organized? Is this something down on social media, people are told to meet at a certain location?
CARROLL: It is. It's been spreading through social media. In fact, before I started today, I was just checking just to see how some of these protesters were organizing, parts who are on facebook, partially on twitter as well. So they have been communicating that way. And they are much more organized. I mean, some of them are out here on headsets and they have been using walkie-talkies to communicate screaming keep the group tight. As long as we are together, we are OK.
So we're at the back of the group now. But the people at the front of the group now and they're trying to communicate. They got split up at Macy's but they far more organized now than they were in the beginning. And I think that's helped them as well in terms of gathering numbers of people together. Usually it spreads on word on social media. Meet at this particular location or meet at that location. That's how these groups start to merge.
You know, my colleague, Deborah Feyerick, was talking about this earlier. There are several different groups that are involved with this. You got people involve in peace organizations, those who are involved in Occupy Wall Street. So you've got a merging of all of these different groups all rallying behind this is one particular point.
COOPER: Jason Carroll, we'll continue to check in with you.
Joining me now here in the studio, Daryl Parks, he is attorney for the Michael Brown's family, our CNN legal analyst as well, Mark O'Mara who represented George Zimmerman, criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor Paul Callan.
Paul, there are reports from WNBC here in New York that the prosecutor in Staten Island did not actually ask the grand jury to consider a lesser charge of reckless endangerment. You're a former New York prosecutor. Does it surprise you why a prosecutor would not recommend, give the kind of full options to a grand jury?
PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL CONTRIBUTOR: Well, you know, there's a huge menu of charges that might be appropriate in this case, so the prosecutor's trying to pick the best ones that fit the evidence. And frankly, I don't think that would be the best charge. The best charge, I think, would have been -- it's a charge of criminally negligent homicide by omission. And I think they would have the best shot. And here's the theory.
When they knock him to the ground and he's incapacitated and he's saying, I can't breathe, I can't breathe, he's in the custody of police officers. And New York courts have held that when you are in custody, the police have an obligation and a duty to protect you, very different than the arrest duty. And by not getting him the help he needed and by making the situation worse by putting pressure on his chest, they, in fact, exacerbated his condition. Remember, the medical report said keeping him in the prone position, chest compression, were chief causes of the death.
COOPER: That's what killed him.
CALLAN: Yes, So, I think criminally, negligent homicide, but in a unique theory by omission, the omission of their duty to protect him. They would have had a very good shot of getting an indictment. And by the way, there was case called the Michael Stewart case in New York where that theory exactly was used and they got an indictment of a cop in Manhattan.
COOPER: Daryl, the possible charges that a DA puts forward to the grand jury, I mean, it has a lot of sway on what the grand jury when they decide.
DARYL PARKS, BROWN FAMILY ATTORNEY: Without question. And what you see in both cases, about Mike Brown and Eric Garner, it appears that the prosecutor doesn't seem to have the desire to really get a charge. Obviously, when a grand jury is sitting there, they can see whether or not this prosecutor really wants them to indict or not. And obviously, we see had the results we have right now in both cases.
COOPER: Mark, I mean, is there any reason the prosecutor wouldn't have gone with a number of options to the jury?
MARK O'MARA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, the quick answer is you should give it to him. But if you ask me to analyze what was going through his mind, here's the way to look at it.
Criminal negligence is sort of a lower standard. It sort of like if we decide here that negligent behavior is doing 20 miles an hour over the speed limit in a school zone, reckless behavior is 40 miles per hour in a school zone. So, if you can't even get to negligent behavior which is what Paul was talking about, that negligent homicide, then reckless is a higher standard and the fact that it's worse behavior. So I would have given to him as the prosecutor, but if that grand jury wasn't going to indict for negligent behavior, they certainly weren't going to indict for reckless behavior, which is an egregious set of facts. So, probably, a difference without a distinction. They won't get in there if they didn't get the negligent behavior.
CALLAN: You know, Anderson, the prosecutor's mistake in this case I don't think was which charges he gave to the grand jury. It was immunity. He made a decision that he was going -- he was out so much to get the cop who did the chokehold that the two other cops who are involved in the most active part of the arrest, he gave immunity to. in another words, he said to them, if you testify in the grand jury, I will not charge you ever with a crime. And I'm betting when I look at the autopsy report in this case that the jurors probably said, you know something, all of the cops acting together caused his death. It's very hard to isolate the chokehold as opposed to the chest compression as to opposed to just abandoning him when he was calling for help.
But if the jurors wanted to indict all three cops, they couldn't because the prosecutor had given immunity to his two key targets.
COOPER: Darrell, Paul was saying he was out to get officer Pantaleo. You don't believe he was out to get him at all though?
PARKS: No. And it is really clear, one -- number one, he left the other officers go. And now that we see that the officers playing hands on here because he was on the ground, there's some serious issues there as well. So once again, we give immunity --
COOPER: His hands, knees, body weight.
PARKS: Yes, for sure. And so then, once he did that, just from the charge, just from the attitude that you saw from how the charges were presented, the real desire to prosecute the officer wasn't there. And what it says though, Anderson, in our country, we have to seriously do something about allowing local prosecutors who work with police day in and day out from prosecuting those officers. Because think about it, the very next day, they're going to have to do cases to save departments.
COOPER: Right. Mark, I mean, that is the criticism of this system as it exist. And I want to get your comments on it. Because a lot of people say, as Daryl was just saying, is that these are prosecutors who, after the grand jury is over and done with, they still have to work with the police and they, in order to progress in their own careers, the prosecutors, they need to win cases. In order to win cases, they need police officers who go the extra mile and your testimony in future cases and if police officer feels like this is a prosecutor who doesn't respect the police, that the criticism is, you know, that the prosecutor is not going to get the cooperation of police and therefore isn't going to want to go against the police when there is an officer involve incident coming up.
O'MARA: And it is an absolutely legitimate criticism.
COOPER: That happens, Mark. You're saying that happens?
O'MARA: No doubt, it does. And I said, in the McCulloch case, that he didn't need to step down because there wasn't enough sufficient evidence under that case of that prosecutor, but he also said a few days ago, with the mistrust that exists in the system right now, it's an easy fix to build up trust to say, do not be the prosecutor who is prosecuting your buddies. Let some other prosecutor come in from the county over, the next two or three counties over, let's at least put in place that we have special prosecutors on cop killing cases, maybe even cop violent act cases, because we need to rebuild trust in the system. And we're not going to build it when one legitimate complaint is prosecutors will not prosecute their buddy cops. And that's just a reality.
COOPER: I just want to show images. This is Grand Central terminal in midtown around 42nd street in New York and now we have protesters going into grand central terminal. Jason Carroll had anticipated that perhaps this is where they were going to go but let's just - if we can, do we have contact with Jason? Jason, if you're there -- .
JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, I can't hear you.
COOPER: So, explain what's going on here, Jason, because again, this is an extraordinary sight to see protesters just entering Grand Central on their own.
CARROLL: that's true.
COOPER: He's too far underground.
CARROLL: Anderson, watching them go right by police officers, going right by some security guards over there is the front. As you can see what they are doing now, they are going to move to the center of Grand Central terminal where they in all likelihood stage another die-in. Although you can't be sure they're doing so much of this on the fly, it's sort of hard to tell. We are just sort of following along, but what's happening is, and there you see it happening now, they're starting to do another die-in at Grand Central Station. We've seen it before earlier tonight at the Apple store and we saw it at Macy's. Now we are seeing it, now you can see, Anderson, they are starting to gather all around us here. Starting today's to stage another die-in. It's hard to keep count here, but as you look around, maybe you can get a better count than I am. But there are camera position, but I'd say now, there is a little bit more than a hundred of them that has started to gather here. I want you to - I'm going to stop talking so you can listen it to hear what they're saying.
COOPER: Again, this is the center of Grand Central Terminal.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Eric Garner, Michael Brown.
CROWD: Eric Garner, Michael Brown.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Eric Garner, Michael Brown.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shut it down, shut it down.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Eric Garner, Michael Brown.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shut it down, shut it down.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Eric Garner, Michael Brown.
CROWD: Shut it down! Shut it down!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Eric Garner, Michael Brown.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Eric Garner, Michael Brown.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shut it down, shut it down.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Eric Garner, Michael Brown.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shut it down, shut it down.
COOPER: Jason Carroll, it's interesting. I mean again, this is now 8:30 on a Friday night in New York. This is a terminal, which sees tens of thousands of people moving through this terminal throughout the day. You probably right now have a lot of people trying to get trains, trying to catch subways through this terminal to get home, to get places they may be heading to for the weekend. Clearly, the protesters want to make a statement but it's interesting how they don't stay in any one spot too long. Because if likely, if they try to actually sort of occupy Grand Central terminal, the police would have to then move in and start to arrest them, but a temporary sort of shutdown, the police clearly are holding back because they believe the protesters will, within a short amount of time, move on, correct?
CARROLL: Exactly. You're right, Anderson. That's the tactic that they're using. They come to spots like Apple or Macy's or right here where we are now staying just long enough to make their point, but not so long that police eventually move in and end up making arrests. But what's incredible to me as we experience this, is not only to see them here at some of these iconic spots, but to see the looks on the faces of the people here who are watching as it happens. Whether it's at the Apple store right here or where we are now. And I think that's part of the point of what they are trying to do. They are trying to come to places like this and reach ordinary people who might not be socially or politically active to get them involved and to get them to hear their point of view. So, we don't know what they're going to do next, but we know what they've done so far. And if what they've done so far is an indication of what we are going to see later tonight, I would expect them to go to many other spots beyond here, but I think you're right. Their tactic is to come in, stay long enough to make their point and then to move on.
COOPER: All right, Jason Carroll, we'll continue to check in with you. Daryl Parks, just very quickly, you do a lot of medical malpractice cases, in addition to the case of lately that you - of Michael Brown and others. In terms of the medical response here, this is clearly something that the Garner family is very upset about. The follow on medical care Mr. Garner got as he was handcuffed laying on the ground. You have no doubt that's going to be part of the civil case, with the medical attention here, or lack of attention?
DARYL PARKS: Well, first of all, we know that obviously, the police called the EMTs to the scene for some reason. There was some issue already. Number two, when they got there, they failed to come to him and to check him. For example, it's very normal in our society that when an EMT gets to you, they, number one, put the EKG machine, EKG to see what the condition of the heart is. Number two, they position you so that they can check what your status really is. And obviously, in the video that we see, they do none of that to really check him where he is. They touch him barely, but they don't do a full assessment of him, which is common. Common - the EMT comes to you, they want to fully assess you.
COOPER: It also seems to me that all the police were saying to all the videographers and elsewhere, stand back, we need to give him some air, nobody was actually giving him oxygen or giving him air.
PARKS: No, not at all. But go back to when they came to the scene, Anderson, it's so important to do a full assessment to a person of that position. For example, with bigger people, it's very common that cops know that you can die for what's called "positional asphyxiation," meaning that how you position the (INAUDIBLE) that are always being on you. All of that stops or doesn't aid you in breathing. So, those are typical issues that law enforcement should know as well.
COOPER: Daryl Parks, Paul Callan, Mark O'Mara. Thanks very much. We are going to take a quick break. Our coverage continues.
COOPER: As we continue to look at protests happening live, this is in Miami. Protesters blocking the street in Miami. Obviously, this is the first time we've actually seen relatively large demonstrations in the city of Miami over the last three days. So, we're watching this one obviously very closely to see that the tone, the tenor of it, how comparison demonstrations we have seen in previous nights in other cities as well as there was demonstrations which are occurring right now. As we are talking about before, nearly all of these protests so far have been very mobile. Very much on the move organized over social media, on Twitter, on Facebook.
And here in New York, certainly, though closely watched by police and followed by police and being monitored by police, the protesters are continually trying to keep on the move. Here the scene in Chicago, trying to keep on the move. Going into stores and in many cases tonight in New York, that we are seeing that or even train stations going into facilities, laying down for a short amount of time and then moving on. Not a situation where police are trying to force them out of a location. They basically try to take over a location, so to speak, block it temporarily, make a statement, and then move to another location.
Now the protesters who you saw laying down in the center of Grand Central terminal in New York on a busy Friday night, they are - this is the group now that is, they are now leaving Grand Central terminal and continue to be on the move. As you know, they've already been into an Apple store. They've already been into Macy's, large department store on 34th street in Harold Square and now they continue to be on the move.
Demonstrations still going for a third straight night. It's worth looking closer at the incident itself now because we've learned more about it today. The moments that sealed Eric Garner's fate back in July. By now, we have, broadly speaking, three main narratives. The account that Officer Pantaleo gave of what he did, what the video itself says and shows to lay people and to experts and now we have, finally today, the full autopsy report. The question is, how do they square with one another and where do they all leave us on the ultimate questions about what happened to Eric Garner?
Today, as I said, we obtained the full copy of the autopsy report. A short time ago, I walked through it, and (INAUDILBE) the video with forensic scientist Kobilinsky of the John Jay College of Criminal Justice, and emergency medicine physician, Dr. Sampson Davis.
So, Dr. Kobilinsky, you've looked at the autopsy report. I want to talk about the chokehold. Because in the autopsy report it said, compression of the neck as well as compression on the back that caused the death. Let's look at this part of the video where the chokehold is used.
ERIC GARNER: Don't touch me.
LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: You see that?
COOPER: You see it starting there.
KOBILINSKY: His left arm went around right on, if you look closely what underneath Garner's right arm.
COOPER: Let's pause it there.
KOBILINSKY: And up and up. Right.
COOPER: And so, when he's down on the ground, it's still in a choke hold.
KOBILINSKY: It's a chokehold, but the autopsy report shows this was a compression of the blood vessels.
COOPER: Not of the windpipe.
KOBILINSKY: Not of the windpipe, that's right. The blood vessel, the jugular vein was completely closed down whereas the carotid arteries were still flowing. That's how you get the Petechia. Threw out the ...
COOPER: So, with the carotid arteries, so blood was still flowing to the brain.
KOBILINSKY: Blood was flowing to the brain.
COOPER: So, what is closing down ...
KOBILINSKY: Well, another - you're compressing the jugulars. So, now blood is able to go to the brain, but not leave it.
COOPER: And that's what the hemorrhage is.
KOBILINSKY: And that causes the petechia.
COOPER: OK. And then - Dr. Davis, there's something called the hyoid bone. And I want to show a picture - this, again, is from the autopsy. There's a gap here.
DR. SAMPSON DAVIS, EMERGENCY ROOM PHYSICIAN: Right.
COOPER: Can you explain what that is, and why this is significant?
DAVIS: So, the hyoid bone is right above your cartilage here, your thyroid cartilage and it's attached to the base of the tongue. And so, as we get older, you see there's the gap here. As we get older, this bone fuses and becomes one, just like his hair is smooth and complete, it becomes smooth ... COOPER: So, this is a natural gap. This is not something - sort of fracture.
DAVIS: That's a natural gap. Exactly. So, as we age, especially a man between 38 and 53, this will fuse. So, we usually use this to identify how old a person is. If we don't have identifiers during autopsy, but with Mr. Garner here, he was still 43, it was infused. But this makes this less likely to break. Because you can imagine any outward pressure on this bone is going to give because of this gap right here. If this was fused, it would have most likely fractured or would have been broken during the choking.
COOPER: OK. And now, there's the moment where he's actually on the ground. I want to show that video because Dr. Kobilinsky, you are saying that as important as the compression - let's pause it there - as important as the compression on the neck was, equally dangerous is ...
COOPER: What's happening here, which is somebody putting his knee and a full weight, not only the hands or on the lower, on the upper back?
KOBILINSKY: It wasn't only Pantaleo that should have been indicted. Well, I mean, there were others involved with this killing because everybody who piled on compressing the chest could be implicated in this killing.
COOPER: So is somebody who isn't the size of Mr. Garner, Mr. Garner's BMI, his body mass index, I think, is twice the average person.
KOBILINSKY: High level of normal.
COOPER: Of somebody of an average weight, though, would this maneuver of people piling on the back, with their hip phased press down, still be dangerous?
KOBILINSKY: Normally, you know, a normal person with -- who's not obese, berking (ph) can kill the person without the chokehold considered at all.
COOPER: Berking. What is berking?
KOBILINSKY: That's what berking is, compressing the chest, so that you can't expand, you can't breathe.
DAVIS: And take this, three areas of the chest. The throat. And the fact that his head is turned also causes compression and then, you know, his core morbid issues, asthma, high blood pressure. It increases the likelihood of death with this position.
COOPER: And Dr. Davis, in the report, there were several injuries that were listed as plethoric.
COOPER: What does that mean?
DAVIS: So, plethoric is like a rosy complexion of a collection of blood underneath the skin. So, with the pressure around the neck in his facial area, you can see where the blood expanded in his facial area. So, I gave it a rosy hue or a rose-like color to it. But as this increased blood flow. Secondary to distal pressure and in this case, it was the pressure around his neck that causes a plethora of (INAUDIBLE) of blood around this facial ...
KOBILINSKY: Still open, jugulars are closed. And pressure builds up.
DAVIS: Right. And the blood can't flow down and it collects (INAUDIBLE)
COOPER: Dr. Davis, Dr. Kobilinsky, thank you so much.
DAVIS: My pleasure.
KOBILINSKY: Thank you.
COOPER: Up next, the latest on the protest going on in New York, Chicago, Washington, Miami, other cities across the country tonight. And more information about what we've learned about the evidence that was presented. We'll be right back.
COOPER: Seeing in D.C., what protesters refer to as a die-in, the streets in Washington, D.C. Let's just listen to the sights and -- listen to the sounds and see the sights right now.
The protests around the country have had similar themes, similar slogans. The prevailing message, black lives matter. Still, not everyone thinks that race played a role in Eric Garner's death. Among them one of Garner's six children. Erica Garner told CNN's Don Lemon what happened to her father was horrible and wrong, was, a nightmare and a tragedy, but she says not necessarily about race. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DON LEMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You said this is not a black and white issue, to you. And that, to you, you are saying this is not an issue of race? You think it's a racial issue?
ERICA GARNER, ERIC GARNER'S DAUGHTER: I really doubt it. It was about the officer's pride. It was about my father being 6'4" and 350 pounds and he wanted to be, you know, the top cop that brings this big man down. Because he's just big. I mean my father wasn't even doing anything. I mean, you know, he wasn't really doing nothing. He didn't have no gun. He didn't run. He - smack him. Nothing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Joining me now, former NYPD officer, Dan Bongino, who's also a former Secret Service agent and Brooklyn Bureau President Eric Adams, who's also a former NYPD captain? Mr. Adams, thank you very much for being with us. What do you make of what one of Mr. Garner's daughter said, that she doesn't believe race was an involved, that it was really a question of the officer wanting to show his power?
ERIC ADAMS, FORMER NYPD CAPTAIN: I think that she was given her perspective based on a simple incident that took place with her dad, but those of us who spent their lifetime really looking at this issue is seeing how it impacts across the entire country, we realize that the great training that police officers have of de-escalating situations is not applicable in communities of color or in communities, where there are economically challenged in locations. So I understand that that's her analysis, but there's a full analysis of how policing is done across the country.
COOPER: It's interesting, because I'm reading your bio. You actually decided to kind of get involved in the system because as a teenager, there was an incident where police officers took you basically to the basement of the building, kicked you repeatedly in the groin and you were urinating blood ...
COOPER: For days and didn't want to tell your mom, because of the shame of it all.
ADAMS: Right. And that's the reality of it. And I think that when civil rights leaders approached me and others young black men and told us that they want us to go into law enforcement and change from within, I jumped at the chance because I realized that there's a part of law enforcement that's a really dark dirty secret in America, and once you make reconciliation with others you have to make it with yourself, and I realized that.
COOPER: It's also interesting, because you wanted to see how the great training that the New York City Police Department receives, that it often doesn't survive long outside the academy - I mean once you're on the streets, particularly in communities of color. Can you explain that? You are telling what you learned in the academy once you got out on the streets, around veteran officers, they were telling you something different?
ADAMS: Exactly. All of the police agencies in our country, you spend a large number of time training, six months for the NYPD, but once you hit the streets, you receive the indoctrination of those who are in the precincts, particularly being communities of color, and they basically give you the symbol - signal - turning out what you learn in the street, but that is not the same application, when you go to communities that are doing financially well. How we police on Park Avenue in Manhattan is not how we police on Park Place in Brooklyn. Different form of policing, and that is what the commissioner and mayor is saying now. We have to have one standard of policing.
COOPER: Dan Bongino, I'm curious of your perspective on what Mr. Adams was just saying.
DAN BONGINO, FORMER SECRET SERVICE AGENT: I disagree with the initial assertion that the training is high quality. I think, frankly, being candid, I think it's terrible. I don't think there's much of a focus on what they call in service training: in other words, while you're an active police officer, you should be constantly going back to the police academy to refresh your training. None of that's done, Anderson. I mean yes, I think about this - Anderson, you have some people coming into the police academy, who've never been in the street altercation in their entire lives. I'm sure Mr. Adams met some of these people. The first altercation they'll ever have is as a police officer. You think a couple of weeks of control tactics training in a police academy is going to enable them to handle someone who could be twice their body weight? I don't think so.
COOPER: Do you think, Mr. Adams, that -- what the solution then?
ADAMS: Let me explain. This is very important to understand because this is what a lot of people are not understanding. All of our police department, particularly in New York City, receives some of the finest training known. The problem is you don't see young white males being shot in the stairway. People take their time, they use de-escalation tactics. You don't see young white men in three piece suits being choked out.
COOPER: Right. You don't hear about white guys being strangled out.
ADAMS: Exactly. It's because the good training the police officers are receiving are not being applied in communities of color. And if we look at what the mayor and police commissioner did about the three day in service training, repeated in service training, you realize what they're saying is that we have to have the same form of reserve, the same form of professionalism that we do in other communities, must be done in ...
COOPER: Does the same thing happen if the officer is the same, you know, color.
COOPER: Same race as the person they policing? An African-American officer in a community of color, are they under the same pressure from their fellow officers?
ADAMS: Yes, without a doubt. And you'll be (INAUDIBLE) show just on the topic. You would be real. Many African-American officers when they come into the department, they become indoctrinated and they become part of the culture of policing that believe that the police departments only see one race. The police department has not created schisms of racism. But you have to policing them, but they are not telling the reality to the officers that you have to be able to leave your predisposition at the door. We can't modify your heart, but we've got to modify the behavior and we've failed in doing that.
COOPER: Eric Adams, it's great to have you on. Dan Bongino, as well. And we would love to actually - doing our show (inaudible). It's really a fascinating stuff. Coming up, more from around the country. A look in Miami here, a night three of protests. The issues we are talking about now are playing out on the city streets. We'll be right back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: So, the protests are going in Chicago. Kyung Lah is there. Kyung, what's going on there?
KYUNG LAH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, there are three people who have been detained as far as we can tell. I didn't see it happen directly in front of me, but you can see, how the Chicago police have tried to contain the protesters to this one street corner. What had been the tactic is just letting them move back and forth as quickly as possible, but at some point, they got caught between lights and then the Chicago police started to push them off the street and made the announcement that if they are in the street they would begin to arrest people and that appears to begin - have happened to at least three people we're hearing from other protesters.
I was too far back in the crowd to see it directly myself. But from what we understand, few people were taken away in one of the Chicago police vehicle. So now they're just standing here on the street corner.
In this, face off with police and they are saying that they want to be able to walk. What had been the tactics and, you know, you saw it in the New York is that they had been moving as quickly as possible to try to avoid arrest.
We noticed to the Chicago police department perhaps seeing what was happening in New York blocking all the entrances to the stores here in Chicago, blocking entrances to the L and that -- officer back there he just said that if you are in the street, if you're not on the side walk you'll be...
So that officer just said that he wants this corner cleared or he will begin arresting people. It is a -- I'm a little confused because we're on the sidewalk but he's saying that this is an area that he wants cleared off. Hold on one second.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's public sidewalk.
LAH: Looks like he's going to make another announcement. Hold on one second.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're blocking the crosswalk you need to clear the crosswalk now.
LAH: They're standing on the sidewalk. I'm not sure why he's asking the crosswalk to be cleared. The crosswalk appears to only be where the police are. And so -- you can see.
ANDERSON COOPER, AC360 HOST: Yeah, it looks like...
LAH: ... the people who's standing on this appears to be sidewalk.
COOPER: And looks like you see a protest -- organizing there... (CROSSTALK)
... people turning around, you can see...
COOPER: ... it looks like protesters are starting to move. Kyung we'll continue checking with you 9:00 P.M. -- a little past 9:00 P.M. about two minutes past 9:00 P.M.