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ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT
FBI Warns Retaliation over Torture Report; Key Evidence from Ferguson Case Not Released; North Korea Suspected of Hacking Sony
Aired December 9, 2014 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: OUTFRONT tonight, breaking news, the FBI and Homeland Security both issuing a terror warning in the wake of the Senate's torture report. That report revealing new details of horrific torture by the CIA.
A 24-year-old -- 24--year of the agency is OUTFRONT next.
Plus thousands of new documents released in the Ferguson shooting case, except for the testimony of a key witness. It was held back.
What other evidence is being withheld?
And protests growing again tonight in what's being called a week of outrage. Protesters demanding change and justice for Eric Garner.
Let's go OUTFRONT.
And good evening, everyone. I'm Erin Burnett. We begin OUTFRONT tonight with the breaking news.
The FBI and Homeland Security warning federal and local law enforcement tonight to be on guard for violent extremists reacting to an explosive report on the CIA's use of torture. That report issued today. Charges that the agency's Enhanced Interrogation Techniques, that's what they call it, Enhanced Interrogation Techniques, were even more brutal than previously stated and that didn't work.
They say in this report that they didn't get any actionable intelligence from those methods. The report details torture that included mock executions, sexual abuse of detainees, even sexual abuse of their family members. Prisoners being kept away for more than seven days in a row. One chained to the floor left to freeze to death. Others hooded then beaten while being dragged.
The bottom line, the techniques, according to the report, were not only deeply flawed but they often yielded, quote, "fabricated information." Hallucinatory detainees saying anything to make it stop.
Well, that's what the report says. The CIA shot back that the program was effective and substantially helped the United States obtain crucial information to fight the war on terror.
Pamela Brown is OUTFRONT tonight in Washington to begin our coverage. And Pamela, what is this new warning from the FBI?
PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Erin, we've learned the FBI and DHS sent out a joint bulletin warning law enforcement agencies across the country that terrorists may want to exploit the torture memo findings as propaganda and use it as a recruiting tool. And the bulletin also says that it could spark online reaction and eventually influence homegrown violent extremists.
So the big concern here is that even though the memo says -- or even though this bulletin says the memo is unlikely to lead to violence in the near term, it could eventually inflame extremists as it circulates on social media and picks up steam.
Now today during a roundtable session with reporters, FBI director James Comey addressed the torture memo. He didn't say much but he echoed the sentiment that's in this warning that sent out, basically saying that the concern in the FBI is whether the memo will generate any activity overseas or from homegrown violent extremists -- Erin.
BURNETT: All right, Pam, thank you very much.
And the Senate Intelligence Committee spent five years to put this report together. They read more than six million pages of CIA documents to complete this review. The entire review is actually more than 6,000 pages long. It cost $50 million to put together.
Our Barbara Starr spent the day going through the summary, the summary. It was 525 pages but it had some shocking details and she's OUTFRONT.
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): After the U.S. captured al Qaeda operative Abu Zubayda they deprived him of sleep for seven days in a row. And that was just the beginning of the report. Even President George W. Bush didn't fully know for months just how brutal the CIA had become.
The CIA insists their actions were legal and gained valuable intelligence. But the interrogation methods detailed in the report are shocking.
SEN. DIANE FEINSTEIN (D), CHAIRWOMAN, SENATE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: Constantly shackled in isolated cells with loud noise or music and only a bucket to use for human waste.
STARR: The report reveals at least five detainees were subjected to what the report calls rectal feeding. Interrogation procedures that went on for months. Hands chained over their heads, tied to a ceiling. At least one detainee died from hypothermia, several suffered mental problems, including repeated suicide attempts. The chair of the Senate intelligence committee defends release of the report.
FEINSTEIN: There have been beheadings. There have been attacks without this report coming out. This doesn't mean that we shouldn't clean our house.
STARR: A former top CIA official says some of the details were held close.
ROBERT GRENIER, FORMER DIRECTOR, CIA COUNTERTERRORISM CENTER: Those who needed to know were absolutely brought in and made parties to the conspiracy. As I said, we were very, very clear that -- about what it was we intended to do and what we were doing to make sure that we had the necessary assurances from the Justice Department that what we were doing was legal.
STARR: And an admission in CIA documents that waterboarding did cause physical harm. Abu Zubayda repeatedly waterboarded became completely unresponsive with bubbles rising through his open full mouth. Internal CIA records called Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's waterboarding 180 times a series of near drowning.
STARR: Now the CIA issued a lengthy and detailed response, insisting the program was legal and that in fact it did give the country valuable intelligence to prevent future terrorist attacks. The CIA, however, also acknowledged that in the past it made mistakes -- Erin.
BURNETT: All right. Barbara, thank you very much.
And you know, just the interesting thing about this to those of you, I was talking to a source who's familiar with this, that said, well, you can say that KSM was waterboarded 183 times but that was over five days. Some others consider that as only five times. Part of it, according to some, is how you count.
Hank Crumpton was deputy director of the CIA's Counterterrorism Center. He was in charge of CIA operations in Afghanistan after 9/11 when his team of 100 CIA agents helped crush the Taliban. He spent 24 years at the agency and worked for then Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.
Ambassador, thank you so much for taking the time to be with us. At this moment, the United States is at war still with al Qaeda and now a powerful off-shoot, ISIS. Should this report from the Senate Intelligence Committee have been released now?
HENRY CRUMPTON, FORMER DEPUTY DIRECTOR, CIA COUNTERTERRORISM CENTER: No, I don't think so for several reasons. It would, first, I think we should put this in context. The report is 13 years after 9/11. At the time of 9/11, Congress supported the CIA, provided the resources, endorsed the authorities that President Bush assigned the CIA, and this included unprecedented lethal covert action authorities and then later on into '02, approved these Enhanced Interrogation Techniques.
Congress was briefed at the time and now they come out with a report 13 years later written by people thousands of miles from the battlefield, criticizing the agency. What's of immediate concern, though, is that this report can provide our enemies, ISIS and al Qaeda and other affiliates, more material for their propaganda purposes and for their recruiting efforts. That's the, I think, immediate concern in the coming days and weeks.
BURNETT: So the ultimate conclusion of this report, if I was to summarize it, Ambassador, conclusion number one is this, and I want to quote it, the report says, "The CIA's use of its Enhanced Interrogation Techniques was an effective means of acquiring intelligence or gaining cooperation from detainees." The CIA claimed it got information as a result of using the interrogation methods and the report said that is false.
Was critical information that you needed to do your job obtained using these methods?
CRUMPTON: Yes. And this was for me later on in '05, I was at the Department of State where I was a coordinator for counterterrorism and I benefited directly from many of these reports informing our policy and informing how we allocated resources and which partners we engaged with.
To give you a very specific example, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, who was a detainee, who was debriefed, led the CIA so Hambali. Hambali was the head of Jemaah Islamiah in Southeast Asia, it's al Qaeda offshoot.
Based on this intelligence working with local partners, including the Indonesian government, they were able to detain these operatives and disrupt many operations and degrade Jemaah Islamiah. In 2002 this organization killed more than 200 people in the bombings in Bali. Today that organization is just a shadow of itself. Because of this intelligence and the policies we put in place afterwards.
One program in particular at state, the Anti-Terrorism Assistance Program was designed to help the Indonesians build up their counterterrorism capabilities and they did an outstanding job. And this is a policy result coming from some of that intelligence.
BURNETT: So you believe that these methods did directly create intelligence that you were able to act on that save lives. Now the senator, Dianne Feinstein, obviously, who released today's report, she spoke some of the specific techniques used by interrogators. I just wanted to play it so our viewers could hear some of these practices directly.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FEINSTEIN: Strip naked, diaper, physically struck and put in various painful stress positions for long periods of time. They were deprived of sleep for days, in one case up to 180 hours. That's 7 1/2 days over a week with no sleep. Usually standing or in stress positions. At times with their hands tied together over their heads, chained to the ceiling.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Many horrific things were described in the report as well. They talked about, in one case, the ingredients of someone's lunch which they pureed and then fed to this person anally.
Do you consider these techniques torture?
CRUMPTON: I'm not able to defend these techniques other to say they were deemed lawful and necessary by the attorneys and the CIA, the White House, the Department of Justice, and these were briefed to the oversight committees going back as early as '02. They deemed them lawful and necessary. And now for the political wins and legal opinions to shift so dramatically in the coming years, and for the CIA to be held responsible, I find that disingenuous at best.
BURNETT: And in terms of you making the point about the legality of it, in terms of the morality of it, when you were there, when you were in Afghanistan in the early days, was there anything you were uncomfortable with?
CRUMPTON: Well, no. At the time we weren't engaged in these interrogations. I was there from '01-'02 and these interrogation techniques came into play later on in '02. I should emphasize, though, the necessity for speed and a variety of plans and policies that were put into place on the run, some of them imperfect.
Our major concern at the time, Erin, is that another attack on the homeland was imminent and we know from the eventual debriefings of these detainees that al Qaeda did plan more attacks in the U.S., on the West Coast, in New York and the financial centers and transportation hubs. And to some I think this report is intellectually dishonest. It is politically biased and ultimately it misinforms the American people.
And it sharpens the partisanship in Washington, D.C. It may put American lives at risk around the world. It undermines our foreign alliances and it provides the enemy propaganda material. Moreover, I believe this report seeks to discredit even dishonor those CIA officers who have labored for many years in the front lines defending our country and defending our constitution.
BURNETT: Ambassador Crumpton, thank you very much.
CRUMPTON: You're welcome.
BURNETT: And next the FBI warning law enforcement to be on alert. Military outposts and American embassies around the world are now on guard
Plus the Ferguson prosecutor promised transparency but then didn't release key witness testimony we're finding out. So is he covering up explosive evidence in the case? We've been getting to the bottom of that and we have a Special Report.
And tonight protesters are gearing up for another night on streets across the United States. We are live at another major die-in happening tonight and in this week of outrage as it is called. We'll be right back.
BURNETT: Breaking news tonight, the FBI and Homeland Security warning federal and local law enforcement to be on high alert in response to the Senate report on the use of CIA torture techniques against terror suspects.
Jim Sciutto is OUTFRONT in Kuwait city tonight.
And Jim, you know, around the world, many people of course remembering that horrible night in Benghazi. You were with U.S. military personnel in Afghanistan, Iraq, now you're in Kuwait. How is the military actually preparing for possible threats because of this report?
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, in form in the part by the experience in Benghazi, the military has mobilized a number of Marine quick reaction forces, some are based in Europe, you have one based in the Middle East, another one in Africa to be able to respond quickly to an attack that might result from anger, retaliation at the release of this report.
In addition to that Secretary Hagel telling us this morning as we sat down with him in Iraq that he's told all of his combatant commanders, those are the commanders of the troops deployed in Afghanistan, in Iraq, to be prepared to boost their force protection for attacks that they might see and they'll have to defend against.
BURNETT: And Jim, what did the Defense secretary say about the specific safety of the troops? Because there are some in the U.S. saying American lives, American troops now are at direct risk because of this report?
SCIUTTO: Well, what he told me this morning is that, listen, they don't have specific information about a specific threat to troops arising from the release of this report but they are prepared for it because they are concerned it may develop over the coming days. That said he did tell me that some of the redactions that they were able to make in this report, some of the information that was removed might mitigate that threat.
Here is how he described it to me this morning.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHUCK HAGEL, DEFENSE SECRETARY: We have had an opportunity to redact some of the most sensitive parts of that to protect our people. We have done that. So this has been a long period of engagement and negotiation, but we feel we have been able to protect our people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Remember, this is not a short-term problem, it's a long-term problem. You've got 11,000 troops in Afghanistan, at least for two years, a thousand more there than planned under the initial drawdown. You've got 1500 across the border here from Kuwait and Iraq, another 1500 authorized by the president.
And it's this kind of thing that can be a real spark for recruiting that can be used on social media by groups, by ISIS, not just today or tomorrow or on Friday when you have Friday prayers, but in the coming weeks and months. It's something they're going to have to be concerned about, Erin, for a long time.
BURNETT: All right, Jim Sciutto, thank you very much.
As we said live from the heart of the Middle East tonight in Kuwait City.
Joining me now, Jeremy Bash, he served as chief of staff to Leon Panetta when he was director of the CIA and the defense secretary, and Glenn Carle, an interrogator for the CIA and the author of "The Interrogator: An Education."
OK. I'm really glad that both of you are with us. Let me just start, though, with this report. It talks about more than waterboarding, and I just want to clarify something we said at the top of the program. They also talk about the threat of sexual abuse to family members of detainees. I had said they had sexually abused them. They threatened to do so.
It also talks about force-feeding detainees through their anus. It's one of the most graphic things but I wanted to read to you the quote, Glenn, in the report. It says, "At least five CIA detainees were subjected to rectal rehydration or rectal feeding without documented medical necessity." And it goes on to talk about one detainee specifically saying, quote, "Majid Khan's lunch tray of hummus, pasta with sauce, nuts, and raisins was pureed and rectally infused."
Look, I know this is graphic, but it gives people a sense of what we're talking about here.
Were you, Glenn, comfortable with methods like these?
GLENN CARLE, FORMER CIA TERROR ANALYST: Well, of course not. I had no firsthand experience with rectal feeding but rectal probing was part of the standard protocol for preparing a detainee.
BURNETT: So rectal probe you're saying was standard?
CARLE: That was part of -- was considered the medical approach in handling of a detainee. I was told so as to avoid the risk that he might be hiding an explosive or something like that.
BURNETT: Jeremy, CIA personnel say that this technique was effective. It got a person to talk. The report from Senator Feinstein says you can't prove it, you can't prove any of these methods, got a single piece of information that saved American lives. And I spoke to someone who was involved in all. They say they're 100 percent sure these methods led -- in this case -- to the capture of Osama bin Laden, but can you prove it?
JEREMY BASH, FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF TO LEON PANETTA AT CIA AND DEFENSE DEPARTMENT: Erin, what you're just talking about, I'm not aware or never been aware that that's been an authorized interrogation technique. I think the broader point here is that we have to remember the context in which this program was developed. The Twin Towers were in a rubble at ground zero. Abu Zubayda was captured off of a roof in Pakistan at the end of March 2002.
The agency was handed a mission. And it said tell us everything you can find out about al Qaeda. At the time, we didn't know anything about al Qaeda. Members of Congress were yelling about an intelligence failure and they said we had no humane intelligence about al Qaeda. If we can get any detainees to give us any information, any leads, let's get that.
A list of approved techniques were developed. They were given to the Justice Department. They were briefed to the senior members of Congress responsible for intelligence oversight. They were approved by the White House but the agency admits today that it was really unprepared. It didn't have the training, it didn't have the doctrine, it didn't have the facilities, and so it was sort of a makeshift program there for the first several months.
And that was the context in which Abu Zubayda, and Nashiri and even Khalid Sheikh Mohammed were taken into custody and interrogated. And only those three were the ones that were waterboarded. That hasn't happened since 2003.
I think as time went on the program came under better oversight, became under better legal oversight. OLC developed the Office of Legal Counsel Developed Memos.
BURNETT: Right. Now --
BASH: I just think it's important to provide some context. It wasn't like we were doing all of these things up until yesterday.
BASH: And we just found out about it.
BURNETT: No, no. I will say, by the way, the report also disputes how many people were waterboarded. I know the CIA has always said three. The report says there were up to 20. So there are disputes within this. But when Dianne Feinstein came on CNN today to talk about it she got into it a little bit with my colleague Wolf. He asked her about the current CIA director's statement today that they did get credible, useful intelligence from these methods. And I want to play that exchange for you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FEINSTEIN: An examination of the records going back to the beginning of the program indicates that this is simply not true.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR, THE SITUATION ROOM: So he's lying, is that --
FEINSTEIN: And this isn't --
BLITZER: Are you saying he's lying?
FEINSTEIN: No. Wait a second, Wolf. I'm not going to get into this kind of discussion. What this says is clearly there is a big difference of opinion. What we asked is that people read the report. Everything said in the report is documented with where it came from, whether it was a cable, whether it was an e-mail, whether it was some other form of communication, and therefore, it is not based on reinventing history 12 years later.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Glenn, is she -- is she right? Do you believe that these methods did not yield actionable intelligence?
CARLE: Of course I believe that because that's the truth. I mean, you know, facts are a beautiful thing and they're hard to deny when there are 6,000 pages of them laid out based on the cables and the exchanges in real-time by the people who are doing this, and it confirms the points that have been made against the Enhanced Interrogation Program from the get-go.
The comments we heard just a moment ago to be honest, I have to say, are a mish mash of misunderstanding or just misleading assessments of the reality. Know nothing about al Qaeda prior to 9/11, that's simply not true. I worked myself on al Qaeda for years prior to 9/11. As did hundreds of CIA officers.
We -- George Tenet had testified before Congress that all signs were flashing red long before 9/11. We were very seized with this issue. Also to say that things were done on the fly, you know, there is right and wrong, the Constitution, the convention against torture, Executive Order 12333, all of the guidance that we had as CIA officers from the time we took our oaths and it was very clear what we should or should not be doing so it simply is not true that we invented things and didn't know what we were doing. That's just not true.
BURNETT: Jeff, Glenn has a point, though. Everybody criticized then President Clinton and said, you know, that he didn't kill Osama bin Laden. He was well aware of he was. Had opportunities to do it and failed. That would indicate the U.S. certainly knew well about al Qaeda.
BASH: Well, the 9/11 Committee reported --
CARLE: That's correct.
BASH: The 9/11 Commission reported in July of 2004 documented what we knew about al Qaeda and what we didn't know, and all of our efforts to find bin Laden which ultimately failed. So we understand that the history of what we knew about al Qaeda but if you are a CIA officer in the field, operating in Afghanistan or in Southeast Asia, in 2002 and you're given a mission, you're told that what you're going to do is lawful, it's approved by the Justice Department, for us now sitting in December 2014 in the warmth of the holiday season, with bin Laden dead, al Qaeda decimated in western Pakistan, and is feeling pretty secure because we haven't had a massive attack on the homeland in 13 years, to now vilify them -- and by the way, that's my concern. It's not -- I think Senator Feinstein and her staff did an outstanding
job of looking at documents and combing through the record and illuminating things we haven't seen before and that is important. I'm worried that the facts as they assemble them are going to be misused by people to vilify officers who I think we're doing what they thought was in the interest of the company to defend us.
BURNETT: All right. Of course, they didn't -- they didn't talk to those officers. They purposely looked at the documents as opposed to human record.
Thanks to both of you.
And next, officials released thousands of pages of documents on the Ferguson shooting but we found out that the testimony of one key witness was not released. So why? And is the prosecutor holding anything else back?
More information over that. And protests over the chokehold death of Eric Garner are growing around New York, across the United States, again tonight we are live on the streets of New York with a major die- in.
BURNETT: A new document dump in the Ferguson case. Overnight, prosecutor Robert McCulloch released hundreds of new pages of evidence. This should surprise you because supposedly we had it all but we didn't. So, we got more. And one piece of information is missing from a key witness to Michael Brown's shooting.
So, what else is missing from these documents?
Sara Sidner is OUTFRONT.
SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The sound of gunshots, the dispatcher calls --
OFFICER DARREN WILSON: Put me on Canfield with two. And send me another car.
SIDNER: A third autopsy, this one conducted by the Department of Defense. And this -- hundreds of pages of witness interviews conducted by the FBI, investigating the police shooting death of Michael Brown.
This is just some of the material the grand jury saw and heard that St. Louis prosecutor Bob McCulloch released after St. Louis TV station KSDK discovered many missing documents in the original document dump. For some, the revelation is creating even more suspicion of the justice system.
LISA BLOOM, LEGAL ANALYST, AVVO: Grand jury transcripts are almost never released. Everything is different in Ferguson because the prosecutor Bob McCulloch said he would release everything. He did release a great deal of documents. And now, we discover actually there were some that were held back.
SIDNER: Back in November, this is what McCulloch promised after the grand jury decided not to indict Ferguson Police Officer Darren Wilson.
ROBERT MCCULLOCH, PROSECUTOR: Please note, that as I have promised the evidence presented to the grand jury with some exceptions and the testimony of the witnesses called to the grand jury will be released at the conclusion of this statement.
SIDNER: Though the exceptions appear to include one of the most important eyewitnesses in the case. The initial FBI interview of Dorian Johnson, the friend who was with Michael Brown the day he was killed, has still not been released.
DORIAN JOHNSON, FRIEND OF MICHAEL BROWN: He turned around with his hands up, beginning to tell the officer that he was unarmed and to tell him to stop shooting. But at that time, the officer was firing several more shots into my friend.
SIDNER: The prosecutor did release to the public the many television interviews Johnson did, but the public has not seen what Johnson initially told federal agents just a few days after Brown's death. The prosecuting attorney's office told "USA Today" that federal investigators asked for that testimony to be withheld as they conduct the federal civil rights investigation.
(on camera): Is it fair for them to say, look, the federal investigation is still open, so we were asked to hold some of this back?
BLOOM: It is fair for the feds who are still investigating the Ferguson matter to hold back materials pertaining to their investigation. But what's not appropriate is for matters pertaining to the grand jury that we were told were released to have been held back and now based on a new request, now they are being released.
SIDNER: And just to give you an idea of just how many documents were just released overnight, Erin, this is them. It is a lot to go through.
BURNETT: Hundreds of pages, right, fair to say? Hundreds of pages.
BURNETT: Wow. Sara Sidner, thank you very much.
Now, our legal analyst Paul Callan joins me, along with Daryl Parks, the attorney for Michael Brown's family.
Daryl, let me start with you. You just saw Sara. Hundreds of pages. So, he said, I'm going to give it to all to you with some exceptions, implication being not very much. You're going to get it all, hundreds of pages. Was that upsetting to you?
DARYL PARKS, ATTORNEY FOR MICHAEL BROWN'S FAMILY: Well, several things, number one, this family has never trusted Bob McCulloch's office, period, and the family maintains that.
Number two, Dorian Johnson is an important witness. He's the closest witness that saw --
BURNETT: He was there. They were walking together. They were in the convenience store together.
PARKS: But also too, when you promise you are going to give all of the information and even if you don't, in the law, we have something -- you can give what's called a privileged law, you can say I'm going to give you everything but I'm keeping this back without telling us what it is. So, they could have done that and they failed to do that as well.
BURNETT: And again, are you shocked by the amount, hundreds of pages?
PARKS: I'm not shocked. Nothing about this surprised me. As we watch how the process unrolled, we continue not to have any confidence in the process that took place and this family continues to ask for a special prosecutor. It can come one of two ways, either from the chief judge of that circuit or it can from the governor who has refused.
BURNETT: Who has so far refused.
All right. Paul, people are looking at these hundreds of pages, and one thing that's standing out is, why not include the FBI's interview with Dorian Johnson who was the one person who was right there, right next to Michael Brown?
PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, you know, there are several things about that. I just want to start out by saying there is no universal thought this was a good idea releasing all of this stuff. Maybe the press thinks it is a great idea. I've spoken with prosecutors who say this is a disaster.
You know, grand jury secrecy means witnesses are told you can come and testify in the grand jury, your names are not going to be revealed and testified --
BURNETT: All this could be prove they should just have put this in front of a real jury but --
CALLAN: No, I think they went the right route because you can get witnesses to come in and tell their story if they are going to be protected. But, of course, here they've been thrown to the public.
But getting to your question, how important is this missing piece and why is it kept out? Well, it's kept out because the Freedom of Information Act and the Sunshine Law when they used in Missouri in a strange maneuver, of releasing grand jury testimony says that if there's a pending investigation, that's exempt from disclosure.
So, I'm sure the feds are saying we have a pending investigation and we don't think you should release this under the sunshine law. So, technically, there's an exception that you can argue.
But as to whether it is a good idea to release this stuff, grand secrecy exists for a reason. It's get to reluctant witnesses to come forward.
BURNETT: I mean, I guess the point that I'm making Daryl, though, that will probably bolster your point a little bit as opposed to Paul, is to simply if they are going to release it all, if you're going to make a statement you are going to release it all, to Paul's point, secrecy is gone for people who are going to testify, so why not still had try it.
PARKS: It begs the question, what else don't we know? And now, we have to wonder, is there other information that we don't know and other questions about the process in general.
BURNETT: So you do have that fear now?
PARKS: For sure.
CALLAN: What we do know is this. You can maybe write a novel or a war and peace and nonfiction book about the complexity of the investigation, but it's still riddled with reasonable doubt. So, the more that gets released, the more you see the conflicts in the testimony and does anybody seriously think that 12 people would agree to guilt beyond a reasonable doubt on this record? I don't think so.
BURNETT: Well, certainly Daryl does.
CALLAN: I don't know if Daryl does.
PARKS: Well, here is a problem, though, Paul, that type of jury -- a grand jury should not be in a position where they're having to weigh the evidence in that particular manner and determine the reasonableness of the officer's fear.
CALLAN: That's what they do every day. Grand juries across the country do that every day.
PARKS: But, not, they're supposed to focus on probable cause, and they got away from their duty.
CALLAN: They are. The law says probable case. But in reality, no, they tried to decide. Did he do it or did he not do it?
BURNETT: So, Daryl, let me ask you this point, though, about Dorian Johnson and I spoken to him and I believe he is earnest and I believe he believes what he saw, and he believes his version. But his version has changed a little bit, when he first came on television and talked to the media, afterwards, here's what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JOHNSON: And as he got closer, he fired one more shot and that shot struck my friend in the back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: All right. Then when he talked to the grand jury, and we don't have the FBI interview but the grand jury, and at that time he said, and he was a little more ambiguous about being shot in the back. He said, once the second shot fired off, I see his body do a jerking movement, not to where it looked like he got hit in his back but I know maybe it could have grazed him.
Now, he was still saying he was running away, right? He wasn't completely changing his story but it was different.
PARKS: I wouldn't say this that much different. I mean, he describes Michael running away from the officer, and he talks about there were some shots, and we know that some of the shots may have missed. We also know there is one of the shots could have hit him in the back of the arm.
I think, if nothing else, he is very straightforward and very believable. I think to try and go and make him remember it every time the same way is totally unfair. But I think he's very honest, he's very straightforward, and he came out and told his version of what happened.
CALLAN: Well, maybe it is a lesser note that it is not a good idea to let your witness have six television press conferences before he testified in front of the grand jury. Kind of a bad idea.
BURNETT: Is that possibly though a reflection of the lack of confidence in the justice system?
BURNETT: That he feels I'm going to talk to the media and forget the justice system?
CALLAN: It's a reflection of this belief now that trial by television is how we determine guilt or innocence, and frankly, it's being used to attack police officers all over the country now because of things that are being said on television.
BURNETT: Quick final word, Daryl.
PARKS: Let me say this, though. I think that there was a lack of the law enforcement trying to get Dorian Johnson's version when this investigation first started. That's why he felt he had to go forward. I talked with his lawyers and they told me that these particular investigators did not come and try to speak with Dorian right away.
CALLAN: That's because he was a suspect in the convenience store robbery that Michael Brown was involved with.
(CROSSTALK) CALLAN: Which, by the way, he failed to mention in his early statements. Michael Brown said -- he said he met Michael Brown on the street, failed to mention the convenience store robbery. And where were they between 7:00 a.m. and 11:53 when they got to the convenience store. You never hear an answer to that.
BURNETT: All right. Thank you very much both of you. Both of you appreciate your time.
And next, you're looking at live pictures. We're going to show you protesters gathering in New York City's Grand Central Terminal. There's going to be another major protest over the chokehold death of Eric Garner. We're going to go there live. You see people lying down. This is going to be a major die as they're calling it.
Plus, Sony Pictures hack and a major, major attack. Is Kim Jong-Un behind it? We've got a new clue in that investigation tonight.
BURNETT: And breaking news: demonstrators are descending on Grand Central terminal in New York City to protest white police officers and their role in the deaths of black suspects. Michael Brown in Ferguson, Eric Garner in New York City. In both cases, a grand jury cleared white police officers involved of any wrongdoing.
These are just some of the staged die-ins. That's what they're calling them in honor of Michael Brown. They're taking place across the country. You see people laying motionless on the ground, pretending to be dead in areas with a lot of foot traffic to make the most impact. Demonstrations like this continuing throughout New York City.
And Nick Valencia joins me OUTFRONT from Grand Central Terminal.
Nick, what are you seeing as more and more people are gathering for what they are trying to make the biggest, quote-unquote, "die-ins" we've seen yet?
NICK VALENCIA, CNN REPORTER: Yes, we have seen this crowd, Erin, grow in the last 10 minutes. We saw a very -- sort of intimate group of protestors, about 20 or so, and that crowd has swelled now to what you see behind me. What they're doing right now is a moment of silence. These are the so-called "die-in" protests that we've seen over the last few days here in New York City.
By and large, Erin, these protests and demonstrations have been peaceful and the police officers here in New York have allowed these demonstrators to sort of move fluidly through the streets. You can see some of them are actually up on that balcony right now, sort of surveying the area, making sure everything here stays calm.
I spoke to some demonstrators here earlier. They guaranteed that this protest would stay peaceful. They say they consider this the modern civil rights movement. They say those civil rights movement in 1960s marched for 300 days from Alabama and they want that same energy, they want that same focus to happen here in New York City.
As you mentioned, they are upset about unarmed civilians in New York being killed by police officers and they say they are determined to continue the pressure on the police department for reform in the NYPD -- Erin.
BURNETT: All right. Nick Valencia, thank you very much. It's going to be fascinating to see that as more and more people gather. My understanding is it was actually a protest scheduled for somewhere else in the city. Everyone from there decided to go over to grand central station. So, we're going to keep monitoring that over the next few minutes for you.
Next, Sony Pictures, the target of one of the most sophisticated attacks ever, and they even threatened the lives of employees. And now, new clues as to who did it and they point to Kim Jong-Un.
And the royal couple getting a couple of jerseys that definitely won't fit. She could possibly put a belt with it and somehow make it look like something other people want to bye. LeBron James committing a political faux pas with an arm around Kate.
Jeanne Moos with Will and Kate on the royal tour.
BURNETT: The hackers taking responsibility against Sony Pictures is making a demand. It wants the company to stop this movie from hitting theaters.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello, North Korea!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Proceeding the interview, you will shake Kim's hand with a fatal dose of poison.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: That's "The Interview". It's a comedy about a plot to kill North Korean leader Kim Jong-Un.
The hackers are calling it a movie of terrorism. And they have done serious damage. They revealed entire films and movie scripts from Sony. They have also revealed the salaries of 6,000 Sony employees, internal memos and e-mails, more than 47,000 Social Security members, of movie stars, and, well, they've also threatened the families of people at Sony with their lives.
Is Kim Jong Un behind the attack?
Joining me now, Gordon Chang. He's a columnist and author of "Nuclear Showdown: North Korea Takes on the World".
All right, Gordon, North Korea denies the attack but calls it a righteous deed. You're pretty certain Kim Jong Un is to blame? GORDON CHANG, NUCLEAR SHOWDOWN: Well, certainly. You know, the FBI today said they could not directly attribute the attacks to North Korea at this time but at this time, we have overwhelming evidence. So, for instance, the malware was written in Korea and also the code is virtually identical to the code that was used to attack South Korean businesses in March and June of last year, and South Korea attributed those attacks to North Korea.
BURNETT: So, with that video of Kim Jong Un last month, apparently inspecting military planes, right? They do all this pomp and circumstance. There he is.
But in a sense, the world is afraid but also rolls its eyes. Does it show North Korea has capabilities no one thought they had? This is -- they've gotten pretty much, I mean, they've gotten everything from Sony.
CHANG: You know, but it's worse than that because we've known that the North Koreans have been doing this for at least a decade. We know they're very good at it. We know that they worked with the Chinese on this and we haven't done anything.
You know, of course, the North Koreans are evil but Washington has exacted no penalty on all sorts of countries for attacking U.S. companies. So, the North Koreans say why not?
BURNETT: But how do you take someone seriously who attacks a whole company over a movie, a comedy?
CHANG: We could laugh about this one but if there's no penalties on the North Koreans, then they're going to attack General Motors and Boeing and all the rest of them because there's no penalty.
BURNETT: All right. Gordon Chang, thank you very much. Pretty incredible story.
OUTFRONT next, the royal couple, they were hanging with LeBron James. Jeanne Moos on the royal tour.
BURNETT: So, Kate Middleton was spotted in New York wearing a Goat coat. I never heard of a Goat coat. I Googled it and discovered it's a coat from a Goatcoatshop.com. It's actually for goats. The goat scratches itself or injuries, buy it a Goat coat.
Well, obviously, Kate's coat was a little different it turned out. Her Goat coat came from goatfashion.com and frankly, I'm worried it might have smelled pretty goatee in today's rain.
Here's Jeanne Moos with how the royal couple battled the elements today.
JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Don't you hate to wake up to this on the last day of a trip?
While mere mortals battled with their umbrellas and lost their hats, the duchess showed up in bright pink wearing a ponytail on a bad hair day, the kind of day even a prince trips on a rain mat. They laid flowers at the 9/11 reflecting pools and later --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You got a problem?
MOOS: -- inches away from a performance by a youth group.
But mostly, they acted cheerful and were cheered, despite the miserable weather.
(on camera): But don't feel bad for the slightly soggy royals. Save your pity for the bedraggled and berated press.
(voice-over): Following the royals doesn't exactly mean they get the royal treatment.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Back up. Back up. Back up.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Go, go, go. Faster, faster. Not going to get your shot if you're not there.
MOOS: The weather had improved slightly by the time Prince William arrived to top the Empire State Building. No relations with the press.
Ouch. We're still a bit stormy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get out of our face, Jesus. Let us work.
MOOS: Kate, five months pregnant, skipped the Empire State Building stop.
Anyway, who wants to smell like wet wool in the $2,300 mulberry coat?
Everything she wears seems to sell out. The Goat coat that she wore Monday from the fashion house called Goat has sold out. The same goes for the Tory Burch coat she wore to the basketball game where she and the prince met Jay-Z and Beyonce.
But leave it to King James to inquire about the prince's fashion.
LEBRON JAMES, NBA PLAYER: What size shoe are you?
PRINCE WILLIAM: Probably twice the size or half the size of yours.
JAMES: I go to get your some, man.
MOOS: Delivered with an arm swung around the duchess, a breach of protocol. Royal spokesperson told NBC, but if we swung our arm around her, we'd end up in a sling.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Crew out and keep moving.
MOOS: Jeanne Moos, CNN --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm not going to tell you again.
MOOS: -- New York.
BURNETT: I love all the background you keep hearing of all the fights with the press who are trying to get close. No doubt, the royal couple is used to that.
I have to say, though, talk to Kate, whether you like your fashion or not, who could get a smelly goat coat to sell out? I mean, goat? I love goats but only she could do it.
Thank you so much for watching us. I hope you have a wonderful night. We'll be back here tomorrow night. Be sure to set your DVR to record OUTFRONT so you can watch us anytime.
"AC360", though, begins right now.