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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah Died; United States Embassy in Yemen Is Pulling Out More Personnel; Belichick, Brady Deny Deflate- gate Allegations
Aired January 22, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. Thanks for joining us.
We have breaking news tonight. A change in power for one of America's closest and most influential allies in the Arab world, Saudi Arabia. King Abdullah has died. He was about 90-years-old and had been ill for quite some time.
The first sign came earlier tonight when Saudi television replaced regular programming with Koranic verses. This is what they are showing now. Mecca, 4:00 a.m. there. Uncertain how many of these people simply have come as part of a pilgrimage and how many turned up to actually mourn the late king.
However, observers who had knowledge at the scene tell us the crowds seem larger than they ordinarily would be at this hour.
Abdullah's hand pick successor, King Salman is 79 which is relatively young by Saudi royal standards. The path he chooses for the kingdom will be vitally important to the United States, of course, the influence that Saudi Arabia carries in the Arab and Muslim world as well as the economic cloud it holds as the world's leading oil exporter.
There is a lot to talk about right now. Nic Robertson is monitoring late developments for us. Also, former CIA officer Bob Baer, safe to say he had seen in all in the region over the years, and on the phone, chief international correspondent, Christiane Amanpour joins us as well.
Christiane, let's start with you. Obviously, the king was quite old when he officially took the throne but he was still considered a reformer. Though a reformer in a very conservative context of Saudi Arabia.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): Well, Anderson, that's right. King Abdullah was king far short of time than he was ruler, really. He was ruler of Saudi Arabia since 1995. Sort of dates back to when his predecessor King Saud suffered a debilitating stroke.
So he has been the man that United States and the rest of the world has dealt with for the last 20 years. And he has had several very important initiatives and very thwarted in some ways, relationship with the United States.
Back in the early 2000s, for instance, King Abdullah came up with the Arab peace plan for the Middle East. He convinced the Arab league to accept an unprecedented agreement to recognize Israel if Israel would return land that were captured in 1967. Report that hasn't happened but that plan is considered still the basis of what might eventually be a peace settlement, or a big part of it.
Obviously, he was also very, very anti-Iran. Saudi Arabia sort of led that Arab part of the anti-Iran coalition and he has, that has been a real hallmark of Saudi policy over the last 20 odd years or more. And you know that Saudi Arabia was not at all pleased with the Obama administration's attempt to sort of have a nuclear deal with Iran or any kind of agreements like that.
Saudi Arabia also disagreed very strongly with the United States over policy towards Syria, Saudi Arabia wanted a Syrian moderate Sunni rebels against Bashar al-Assad to be armed and that caused a huge amount of friction with the United States.
And interestingly, Saudi Arabia also refused to take its seat in the security council. It was made to have the Arab seat in the security council and it considered that an ineffective position and didn't take it. So it's a very close ally of the United States but very prickly too.
COOPER: Nic Robertson, we're just getting a statement from President Obama on King Abdullah's passing. And it reads in part, it's with deep respect that I express my personal condolences and sympathies of the American people to the family of King Abdullah bin Abdulaziz and to the people of Saudi Arabia. As our country work, it confront many challenges. Always valued King Abdullah's perspective. And appreciated our genuine and warmth friendship. As a leader, he was always candid and have the courage of his convictions. One of those convictions was the steadfast and passionate believed the importance of the U.S. Saudi relationship as a force of stability and security in the Middle East and beyond.
I mean, Nic, a lot of people do talk about him as a reformer. But again, reforms, I mean, it's obviously a very conservative kingdom. The growth of the secret police under him was extreme. There's a lot of people saying he wasn't much of a reformer at all.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And there were others who would say he did achieve some things. He did give women a limited voice. He did try to sort of move issues forward for them. You know, there was an expectation when he came to power that women might be able to drive. You know, as strange as that may sound, they still can't drive in Saudi Arabia. So he didn't ever achieve that.
But some of the things he did do to try to sort of open up society a little bit. You know, he created one of the first co-educational universities and he created a large educational establishment for girls as well.
And when he was criticized by some of the country's more conservative religious leaders, he had some of him removed from their position. So, this was a man who could move but would, albeit, within the limitations of Saudi society.
It's, you know, the most important thing for the Saudi leadership when you're in power or right now passing power over to the next king, to King Salman now, is that continuity and the stability and the population should understand that, the region should understand that.
You know, the Saudis do live in fear, the royal family does live in fear that there could be a popular uprising and securing a strong shift in power, a seamless transition, is very important for them because there are human rights blogger just recently sentenced to a thousand lashes, given 50 a week. You know, situations like this really point to the fact the country may not have moved forward very much. But certainly, King Abdullah, he tried to move forward in some areas. And he himself respected and stopped the flogging of this blogger in the past couple of weeks. These are small steps, that's an indication of just how conservative the undercurrent is in Saudi Arabia, Anderson.
COOPER: Bob, do we know much about the Salman who seems like is going to replace him? I mean, I read some accounts that say he's actually harder lined, more conservative than Abdullah. And if Abdullah really was a huge reformer, there were other people he could have made his predecessor.
ROBERT BAER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Anderson, he's a half brother. He was the full brother of King Fahid. He's the so-called Sudary, one of the Sudary seven. One that the key princes, the sons of Abdulaziz.
When he was governor of Riyadh, the intelligence community was very concerned about his connections with the la hobbies (ph), who, of course, are connected to bin Laden. He was very conservative. And you know, judging by his past, he will not be sort of a healing force that King Abdullah was.
King Abdullah, really frankly, was a fantastic king in the Saudi context. He kept a lid on the place that challenges from Iraq, to Yemen, to Egypt. He took them all on. He did a wonderful job. So I think his passing is a real loss for us and the Saudis.
COOPER: Christiane, Bob Baer, Nic Robertson, we are going to check in with you a little bit later on for more of the developments.
There is more breaking news that is not in the Middle East and a story like the last one, very important right now to American interests.
The senior state department official says the United States embassy in Yemen is pulling out more personnel because of security concerns. Now earlier today, Yemen's president stepped down shortly after the prime minister and cabinet resigned. The capital, Sana'a, has been rocked by chaos since rebels seized the presidential palace this week. Rebels still hold the kidnapped presidential aide despite agreeing to free him.
Our chief national security correspondent Jim Sciutto joins me now.
So Jim, the situation obviously in Yemen, serious ramifications for the U.S.
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: No question. The U.S. presence there is essential to keeping up this essential relationship in the fight against terrorists, specifically, Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula. That embassy staff on the ground are serving that political relationship. But also a military presence on the ground, a military relationship that's been key to those drone strikes that have helped kept Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula under wraps to some degree in Yemen.
They haven't pulled out all their staff, the military staff that remains key to that program. But if the situation deteriorates further, it is possible that you evacuate all U.S. personnel.
COOPER: I also want to talk about, there was a figure given out today in a press conference, a figure of 6,000 dead in ISIS members dead so far, ISIS killed 6,000 killed. What did Chuck Hagel have to say about that? Was that information supposed to be released, is that accurate, is Chuck Hagel secretary of defense standing by that?
SCIUTTO: Well, it is interesting. I heard very different views on that number inside the Pentagon today. We did get confirmation from central demand that 6,000 is the U.S. estimate, to be clear, it is an estimate of number of fighters killed since the start of the campaign some five or six months ago.
But I heard from other officials that they weren't comfortable, that seemed high, that thousands was a better estimate. But it's interesting to hear Secretary Hagel today in his press conference, he didn't seem comfortable with any such estimate. Here's what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHUCK HAGEL, DEFENSE SECRETARY: It is a measurement. But I don't think it is the measurement. I mean, I was in a war with a lot of body counts every day. We lost everyone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Of course, Hagel, a Vietnam war veteran, and those body counts didn't prove to be at all accurate in showing U.S. progress during the Vietnam war. And clearly, the secretary doesn't want to go that way again.
COOPER: So the U.S. ambassador who put that figure out there, the 6,000 figure, I mean, did he go rogue? I mean, it is not exactly some of the administration seems to have wanted to have out there.
SCIUTTO: I don't know if he went rogue. It does appear to be an estimate. It circulated within the Pentagon or whether certain officials wanted it out there or not. Clearly, Secretary Hagel and some others that I spoke to on background in the Pentagon today did not want the figure out there. And part of the reason they did is because it's an estimate. It's an estimates based on assessments largely from pilots at several thousand feet. It's not a hard number. But they do want to give some benchmarks as to what their progress is there and this is one of them. But I think we should look at it that way. It's a benchmark but certainly not a definitive one.
COOPER: All right, Jim Sciutto, appreciate the update.
There's a lot more to get to you tonight.
A quick reminder, make sure you set your DVR. You can watch "360" whenever you want.
Just ahead, Tom Brady, speaking out about football so-called deflate- gate. What the patriots quarterback said today about whether he or anyone in this organization did anything wrong.
Also ahead, another deadly shooting by a police officer, this time caught on dash cam. The video and the questions it raises when "360" continues.
COOPER: There is more breaking news tonight. Two big denials from one of the teams headed to the super bowl. Denials that they did anything underhanded to actually get there. And the head coach and the quarterback weighed with the New England Patriots both weighed in today on deflate-gate as it's been called, allegations that the team's footballs were under inflated. And as win against the Indianapolis Colts in the AFC championship.
Today, Coach Belichick said all this talk of underinflated footballs was news to him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL BELICHICK, COACH, NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS: I was shocked to learn of the news reports about the footballs. I had no knowledge whatsoever of the situation until Monday morning. That's when I learned a lot more about this process in the last three days than I knew or had talked about in the last 40 years coaching this league.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Belichick also said that quarterback Tom Brady's preferences on his football from something he can talk about -- Brady can talk about in more detail than he as a coach can.
Brady spoke just a few hours ago saying he thinks his team won the game fair and square. He didn't do anything to alter the balls in any way, he said. Brady was asked if he thought anyone else with the Patriots might have done anything wrong. Here's what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM BRADY, NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS QUARTERBACK: I had no knowledge of anything. I had no knowledge of any wrongdoing of any --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Are you comfortable saying nah?
BRADY: Yes, I'm very comfortable saying that. I'm very comfortable saying that nobody did it as far as I know. I don't know everything. I also understand that I, you know, was in a locker room preparing for a game. I don't know what happened over the course of the process with the footballs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Joining me now is FOX sports analyst, Mike Pereira, who is the former vice president officiating for the NFL. Eric Hester, who worked as a ball boy for the Chicago Bears and "Boston Globe" NFL reporter Ben Volin.
So, Ben, we will start with you. I mean, you wrote the Bill Belichick essentially threw his quarterback under the bus today, how so?
BEN VOLIN, NFL REPORTER, BOSTON GLOBE: Well, when Bill Belichick gave his press conference, he gave an eight minute opening statement and he said, hey, don't look at me. I know nothing about the ball inflation. I've got bigger things to worry about on game day. You heard him say I learned more about this in the last three days than I did in the last 40 years. And he said hey, don't ask me. Ask the other guy. Tom Brady can tell you about how he likes his football.
Usually you see the CEO of an organization stand up and say, look, the buck stops with me and I still ultimately take responsibility. He didn't do that. He said I'm not at fault here and you have to talk to the other guy.
COOPER: So, I mean, Ben, I mean, it's absolutely known for sure that 11 of the 12 balls were underinflated?
VOLIN: All we know for sure that we sent the Patriots a letter on Monday saying our initial investigation reveal that several footballs that were under inflated. And now they have do a more formal review.
Tom Brady actually confirmed that it was 24 footballs that the Patriots had to have inspected before the game, an extra 12 because of inclement weather on Sunday.
The 11 number came from an ESPN report. That's what everyone has been going on this point. All we know for sure that several footballs were found to be underinflated.
COOPER: So Eric, I mean, Brady says that footballs didn't feel any different to him. As a former ball boy, you said if the ball was deflated, as much as the Patriots footballs are reportedly to have been, you would have noticed it, correct?
ERIC HESTER, FORMER NFL BALL BOY: Well, it's really hard to say. As a ball boy, you spend a lot of times with the footballs and the quarterbacks do too. You prepare the balls with the quarterback for the week leading up to the game and the quarterback are very particular about the way the football feels in their hand and a change in pressure can be detectable if you really are feeling for the pressure.
COOPER: So you're saying a quarterback would know the difference?
HESTER: If he's really looking for it. But I do have to say in the heat of the game with everything going on, I can totally believe that Brady might not notice a drop in pressure in between quarters or plays.
COOPER: And Eric, who actually, I mean, from the time the balls are checked by the refs, where are they? Who has control of?
HESTER: Right. So the referees inspect the balls two hours and 15 minutes before the game. The ball boys bring them to the referees at that point. They're inspected. After that in my experience, we would bring them out straight to the field. At that point, warm-ups would happen and a lot of people at that point start getting their hands on the footballs and throughout the game. It's the ball boy's responsibility to keep track of the balls. But ultimately, there's just a lot going on and the ball is moving around a lot. I will say that given everything going on, the thousands of fans around, media cameras everywhere, I think it would be very difficult to speak off with a dozen footballs and deflate them without everyone knowing.
COOPER: Mike, I mean, Belichick is saying that in his whole career, he never talked to any player or staff member about air pressure in balls, and he had no knowledge of steps in the process of even preparing the game ball. Does that make sense to you?
MIKE PEREIRA, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OFFICIATING FOR THE NATIONAL FOOTBALL LEAGUE: Yes, probably does. I mean, I don't think coaches spend a lot of time reading the rule book, period. And you know, it's a set routine for the officials. But you know, most people say, 12 balls each team. But just pointed out by Eric, I think it's 24 balls by the home team in inclement weather.
But the pounds per square inch has really has never been a consideration, although, if you look back where an incident in college in UNC would blame Clipen (ph) with underinflated footballs there which made it much easier for their quarterback to throw.
So, it's not the first time this has happened. And the one thing I would disagree with that, you know, even though Bill says that he wasn't aware of all the procedures and I get that, I do think that it's easy to deflate a football and we talked about that before. Simply put, the needle in the ball, the air will come out.
So, it's something that you can do away from the cameras. And you know, as far as the quarterback not feeling the difference, you know, you've had the Monday morning quarterback, you've had the Rich Eisen (ph) show that have taken two footballs of two pounds difference in pressure and they had a hard time telling the difference.
And so it's not something that officials would have noticed. But I do believe that if the quarterback knows that he's throwing an underinflated ball, not only will he get a better grip but subconsciously, I think it will affect him too.
COOPER: Eric, is it possible, you know, weather had an impact on these balls, again, you said you spent a lot of time obviously with footballs. Is it possible that they just naturally deflated?
HESTER: I've heard that theory and people have put that to the test. Again, I think that in the course of the game, both the ball boys and the quarterback aren't really taking the balls and really thinking much about the way their pressure feels at that moment. It really would take a pressure gauge to truly tell that big drop in pressure occurred, whether from the weather or something else.
COOPER: But then didn't one of the players from the colts, when he intercepted a ball, didn't he sort of feel like he noticed a difference and brought it up?
VOLIN: What's funny is the Colts player D'Qwell Jackson actually came out today that he didn't notice that the was underinflated and he never intended any of this to happen. Supposedly, the story goes that he intercepted the football far over to the sideline and there is a Colts (INAUDIBLE) or sideline attendant who got the football and then noticed it was underinflated and then he informed the coach who informed the general manager who informed the league and they informed the officials.
The player D'Qwell Jackson also said that the Patriots were actually using Colts footballs towards the end of the half. So there's so much out there that's still unknown. The NFL is being very tight lipped about this. I asked them several questions about the process of this investigation and have they interviewed Tom Brady yet. Tom Brady said he hasn't even been spoken with yet by the league office. But the NFL is being very tight lipped and not providing much sunshine at all into this investigation.
COOPER: And so I mean, I think, Ben, I think that bears repeating and I think it is important what you just said. I mean, there's been a lot of reporting on this, a lot of people talking about this, certainly, but the actual hard facts, it seems, aren't all that hard at all.
VOLIN: You're right. The NFL is saying very little. All they've done is confirm that, yes, in fact, they are reviewing this. And supposedly, they have people in FOX Borough this week and it's been four days now. So I thought it was pretty safe to assume, yes, they had spoke with Tom Brady and Bill Belichick, all the key figures. We don't even know that. Tom Brady said today they haven't spoke with him yet.
The league office is only four hours down the road in New York City. You'd think they would be able to speak with Tom Brady. So not really sure what is going on with the league office, why they're not providing any insight at all into this. You'd think that after the Ray Rice fiasco, they want to let the public into the process so we have a little more confidence in their investigations.
COOPER: All right. Ben Volin, thank you, Eric Hester as well and Mike Pereira. Thank you very much.
A lot more making news tonight, including a police stopped that very quickly turned fatal and it was caught on tape.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Show me your hand. Don't you move.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, the dead man was African-American and so was one of the police officers, one of the two police officers, not stopped the questions about the decision to shoot. Was it the right one? See more of the video, all the information, you can decide next.
COOPER: And tonight, another deadly police shooting is getting national attention. This time a dashboard camera caught all of it. It happened late last month during a traffic stop in southern New Jersey.
Now the video just came out this week. And it so often, it happens, if does answers some questions, but it raises still others. The discussion on it shortly, but first a report from Randi Kaye.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm not armed.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (VOICE-OVER): Pulled over in a jaguar for allegedly running a stop sign, a routine traffic stop. Bridgeton, New Jersey police officer (INAUDIBLE) on the passenger side of the car.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, you got a driver's license?
KAYE: Just seconds later, the officer jumps back, pulls his gun, seemingly stunned by what he saw inside the car. It's all captured on police dash cam video on December 30th. This is where everything changes between the officers and passenger Jerome Reeve (ph), a 36- year-old African-American man who had been in trouble with the law before.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Show me your hands. Show me your (bleep) hands. Don't (bleep) move. Don't you (bleep) move. Get him out of the car. We got a gun in the glove compartment.
KAYE: A gun in the glove compartment. Watch as office Days on the right with his own weapon in his right hand uses his left hand to pull out from the car what appears to be a large silver gun. Watch again.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don't you move.
KAYE: Suddenly, the warnings escalate. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm telling you. I'm going to shoot you. You're
going to be (bleep) dead. I'm telling you. You reach for something, you are going to be (bleep) dead. I'm telling you. I'm telling you.
KAYE: Officer Days appears to know Reed (ph), likely because he was one of the arresting officers last August when Reed was picked up on charges including resisting arrest and drug possession. Reed has also been arrested six times by Bridgeton police since 2009. And reportedly spent about 13 years in prison for shooting at police officers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: On the dash cam video, Reid can be heard telling the officer he isn't reaching for anything, then this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's reaching. He's reaching. Show me you f-ing hands.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's unclear, but Reid sounds like he is saying he's going to get out of the car, his hands at his chest.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No you're not. No you're not. No you are not. Don't [EXPLETIVE DELETED] move. Don't you [EXPLETIVE DELETED] move.
KAYE: Shots fired. Officer Days, who is black, appears to fire first, possibly as many as six shots. Officer Roger Worley who was white appears to fire once from the other side of the police car. Reid collapses on the ground. The driver of the car who had both his hands visible out the window is handcuffed. The chorus of angry bystanders grows.
New Jersey allows use of deadly force when the officer reasonably believe such action is immediately necessary to protect the officer or another person from imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm.
For now, both officers are on administrative leave while investigators look into how a routine traffic stop ended with one man dead, all in just about 90 seconds. Randi Kaye, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, precisely because people look at that video, see different things. We have got a lot to talk about with our panel joining us now. Legal analyst, Mark O'Mara and Sunny Hostin. She, of course, a former federal prosecutor. He's a defense attorney, best known for defending George Zimmerman.
Also, former LAPD officer David Klinger who currently teaches criminal justice at the University of Missouri in St. Louis.
So do you believe the police officer was justified in shooting this man?
SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: You know, I don't think that's clear. When you look at a case like this, the question remains the same. Was the force justified and when you look at the use of force policy in New Jersey, that officer had to believe that he was in imminent immediate danger of death or great bodily injury, Anderson, and the bottom line is he's getting out of the car, they've already retrieved the gun that they've found in the glove compartment and his hands are up. I've said it time and time again, hands up is the universal gesture for surrender. Why if someone is surrendering, why do you have to shoot to kill?
COOPER: You know, Sunny, it's interesting. We talked obviously a lot about race in the wake of Ferguson, but in this shooting, the officer who fired the fatal shots is black, the passenger who was killed also black. Do you think that changes somehow the way people are going to look about - look at this?
HOSTIN: You know, I don't think it should. Certainly, many times we talk about race when it comes to interactions with police officers, and certainly, there is that racial bias that sometimes plays a part, that implicit bias that sometimes plays a part, but in large part, this is an issue of policing and Anderson, we've talked about this time and time again. You know, we understand that police officers have a very difficult job, everyone understands that they are scared as well. But when you have a video like this which, in my view shows an officer who is very, very agitated, very tense using unprofessional language, expletive ridden commands, screaming at this young man, I've got to tell you, you know, it just doesn't seem to me that the appropriate decorum was taking place and that, for me, calls into question this entire incident.
COOPER: Mark, I mean, does the language matter? I mean - a gun was found in this vehicle. The guy who was killed, he reportedly served a lengthy amount of time in prison for shooting at police when he was a teenager and one of the officers involved in this incident knew who he was, and arrested him for a different crime just last year. I mean, do you buy some of this point of sort of the decorum?
MARK O'MARA, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, what's interesting to look at this case, you see how it develops, I disagree with Sunny to the extent that this officer was all upset, actually he was quite calm when he came up to the scene. I think you recognize (INAUDIBLE) we - somebody not only here arrested before on a drug charge, but much more importantly, that he was somebody who'd shot at police officers before and that he's a felon and when you see a gun two feet away from a felon, that's going to ramp up the officer's fear.
HOSTIN: Can I address that, because, you know, we are again, blaming the dead guy, blaming the victim, we're going over his past criminal history and saying that that is appropriate to take - that should be an appropriate measure of what happened. Bottom line is, Martha Stewart spent time in prison as well, right? Should Martha Stewart then when she gets stopped get shot, not be given the benefit of the doubt? I just think it's ridiculous.
COOPER: Yeah, but Sunny, isn't that ...
HOSTIN: The more ...
COOPER: Sunny, isn't that apples ...
HOSTIN: He had a history.
HOSTIN: He should be shot.
COOPER: Sunny, isn't that - Sunny isn't that apples and oranges? I mean I guess if Martha Stewart was buying stocks, you might give her, you know, a little closer inspection on her stock performance and, you know, what stock she's picking. I mean if a guy has been arrested for shooting at police and a gun is found in the vehicle.
HOSTIN: When he was - when he was ...
COOPER: ... found in the shooting, but those are elements that clearly would be in somebody's mind if they had that information.
HOSTIN: Look, I mean I think we have to make it clear, he was 13 years old when that happened. We don't know all of the facts surrounding that. He spent time in prison, paid his debt to society, got arrested again, paid his debt to society and now is like every other citizen. So, so - should we say ...
O'MARA: I need to disagree a little bit.
HOSTIN: that it's OK he got shot.
DAVID KLINGER, FORMER LAPD OFFICER: Can I jump in, Anderson?
O'MARA: The relevant question is this. Was the officer reasonable in using deadly force and in looking at that question, then the officer's perception is very relevant and if the officer's perception is, this is Jerame Reid who has shot at officers before, who is a convicted felon and it was - with the gun, that's what makes it relevant. I don't think we can look and say, well, we only killed a previous felon, I agree with that, but it's what he was thinking in the split second that he had to think it and that Reid refused to listen to a number of very specific commands.
KLINGER: And to follow up on one point.
COOPER: David ...
KLINGER: ...Yeah, what the Supreme Court has ruled and what all officers are trained, and then in terms of a review of it is to tally the circumstances. So, we do need to know what was going on in the officer's mind. How much information did he know about this individual, how much information did he know about this criminal past. My understanding is this officer had, in fact, arrested him before, so my suspicion would be that he would know about the previous time that he spent for shooting at the police and so, you look at - tally the circumstances, as your other guest was pointing out, in terms of a felon, a gun in close proximity, officers are trained that when you have an ex-felon with a gun, that's a dangerous sign, then we have a felon who spent hard time for shooting at police, even greater threat level and all of that would be reasonable for a reasonable officer to believe.
Then the question becomes at the moment that these shots are fired, was it reasonable for him to proceed that his life was in jeopardy? And if he's told to stay in the car and he doesn't, he, in fact, forces his way out of the car and hands up is one thing, versus hands coming towards. And I can't tell from that video exactly what was going on. And so, that's why I think, once again, we have to wait to see what the entire investigation discloses about all these crucial points.
COOPER: All right, David Klinger, I appreciate you being on. Mark O'Mara, Sunny Hostin. Always, thank you.
KLINGER: Thanks for having me.
COOPER: Well, coming up next, with all the consequences of getting the shoot or don't shoot decision wrong in their life or death consequences, we are going to look at how officers are being trained to get it right. We'll show you technology that brings police so close to life and death encounters, some police react physically like it's the real thing.
COOPER: Look, you are just joining us. We've been talking about another roadside police encounter that left someone dead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your f-ng hands here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right there. You are Jerame, you reach for something, you are going to be f-ng dead. He's reaching! He's reaching! Show me your f-ng hands.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On the ground.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, you are not! No, you are not! No, you are not. Don't move!
Put your hands there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don't you f-n move!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, the entire incident in New Jersey last month took about a minute and a half, the decision to shoot, only split seconds. The stakes this time and always, life and death, which puts the focus understandably on training police get to try to get it right for everyone's sake. Kyung Lah has an up-close look now at our new way to let officers train to make the most important decision they'll ever face.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You need to calm down right now.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, you need to calm down. I'm doing my business.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm trying to find out.
KYUNG LAH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A man being questioned suddenly turns, slamming a police officer with a snow shovel. The suspect is shot and killed by police.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have to put your hands back on your head.
LAH: This suspect, at first calm with police officers ...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
LAH: ... rushes for a knife in his car and tries to stab the officers who shoot and kill him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn't even see the knife.
LAH: Then there's this encounter. An officer responding to a domestic violence call in a seemingly routine chat for several minutes with this man, tries to pat him down for a weapon. You can see the gun, five shots strike 24-year-old officer Tyler Stewart of the Flagstaff, Arizona, police department, killing him. Officer Stewart never had a chance to draw his weapon. Moments later, the suspect used that weapon to kill himself.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because what? You are investigated ...
LAH: Body cameras, part of a growing arsenal of technology in policing giving us an intimate view of a cop's life. From the challenges to the life and death choices. This officer devastated in front of a dash cam as he discovers the suspect he thought was armed was not. The suspect died after the officer shot him, a police shooting determined to be justified. As hard as this is to watch, technology is revolutionizing modern policing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the past, those officers never had that ability to see that, so now we're learning from the mistakes or really just finding out if the officer has done the right thing.
LAH: Not just after the shooting, but before.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Patrol - you have multiple shots fired, one subject down in the arcade. Right at the entrance.
LAH: This is Henderson police officer, Seth Coleman. An 11 year veteran he's never had to shoot a suspect, but he must train to do it and know when not to. This is a 300 degree simulation created by VerTra currently used by 200 U.S. law enforcement agencies.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What does he look like?
LAH: The gunman is in a movie theater.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where do you go? Which direction?
LAH: The gunman hits Officer Coleman twice and he makes one terrible mistake, shooting an off-duty cop.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, as we have the time to look at it, you see that he's got a badge in his hand.
LAH (on camera): It looks like you're still sweating a little bit.
SETH COLEMAN, HENDERSON POLICE: Yeah, it's an adrenaline dump. It's adrenaline rush. Makes you cold, makes you clammy, makes my mouth dry. This is where I want to learn from my failures, instead of being out on the streets and failing there, this gives me an edge to fail here to succeed on the streets.
LAH: How realistic does this feel?
SCOTT DILULLO, DIRECTOR OF FIREARMS & CONTENT, VIRTRA: Very, very realistic. Because now he's trying to work through multiple problems.
LAH: Retired Scottsdale Arizona police officer Scott Dilullo says the goal of virtual 300 degree system is to make this as real as possible.
The trainee wears an electric impulse box. The gun is an unloaded but real weapon. The screens behind the officer imitate what it's really like on the streets.
DILULLO: I can escalate dialogue branches, deescalate it. I'm listening to what he's saying and I'm giving the responses.
COLEMAN: Drop the gun now.
LAH: Even for a veteran, this is humbling.
COLEMAN: It hurts my heart, hurt my feelings to know I did something like this in a scenario, but I learned from it.
DILULLO: We are talking ...
LAH: So tomorrow thanks to today's technology, he is a better and safer officer. Kyung Lah, CNN, Las Vegas.
COOPER: Split second decisions.
Up next, $40,000 seized by police in a traffic stop and the driver didn't even break the law. Police do this across the country and it's legal. This officer in Iowa has done it plenty of times, he's proud of himself, he's even signed autographed photos of himself with his k9 and huge bundles of cash. Gary Tuchman's investigation when 360 continues. Also coming up at the top of the hour, the premiere of Morgan Spurlock's "Inside Man."
COOPER: The last time we told you about something called civil asset forfeiture, it's a fancy title for a series of laws that basically lets the federal state and local governments take money from you without charging you with the crime, if they think that has been used as some part of a criminal activity. Some think it's flat out stealing. Tonight, Gary Tuchman investigators what's been happening to drivers in one small Nevada County.
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You're looking at a desolate stretch of interstate highway in rural Nevada, two hours east of Reno. If you were driving here on I-80 with cash in your car last year, this could have happened to you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How much money you got? That's not yours, is it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is mine.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I'm seizing it.
TUCHMAN: This is Humboldt County sheriff's deputy, Lee Dove, he's about to seize roughly $40,000 from this driver, who was not charged with a crime or even a traffic violation. Attorney John Olson represents the driver and is in the process of organizing a class action suit on the behalf of others who believe this is nothing more than thievery.
JOHN OLSON, DRIVER'S ATTORNEY: They give him a receipt that doesn't say how much he took. Tell him that if he wants to protest it, they'll take his car too. He won't do any official act after that except to put the money in the bank. No police reports, no lawsuit. No forfeiture lawsuit which is generally what's done? Take their money and run.
TUCHMAN: The traffic stops are called interdictions by the authorities, part of something called civil asset forfeiture, in which cops are permitted to seize money if law enforcement believes the money may be part of a criminal enterprise.
OLSON: What's going on here, is they take the money, they go back to town and they put it in the bank.
TUCHMAN: Deputy Dove was so proud of the stops he made that he began autographing photos of himself with his K-9 dog and huge bundles of the confiscated cash. And on the highway, he berated motorists.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You cannot be driving it. I'm convinced that you stole money, that you make your way with the - you make your way with the cashier checks stuff, but you - the cash, that's going to be seized. OK? You are up to no good. TUCHMAN: This kind of language is very disturbing to Mike Allen who
happens to be Deputy Dove's new boss, just elected as the new sheriff after campaigning with the promise to end this type of activity.
SHERIFF MIKE ALLEN, HUMBOLDT COUNTY, NEV.: When I first learned and doubt it, I guess I was in denial, I think that this can't happen. That - that something is being misled. And that all the information isn't coming forth.
TUCHMAN (on camera): And today, how do you feel about it?
ALLEN: Well, after I viewed a videotape, I feel that this, these highway interdiction program needs to be looked into and to ensure that nothing - people's rights are not being violated.
TUCHMAN (voice over): Records show that Deputy Lee Dove was trained by Desert Snow, an Oklahoma company responsible for training thousands of police nationwide in roadside tactics ranging from catching terrorists to seizing cash from motorists. So we wanted to ask Deputy Dove about this, ask him why he thinks this is in any way appropriate. It was nightfall when we walked up to a fence outside his house.
(on camera): Deputy Dove, this is Gary Tuchman from CNN, we have a question for you.
TUCHMAN (voice over): No answer. But as the CNN team was driving away, this happened.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.
TUCHMAN: We were pulled over by some of the Dove's sheriff's department colleagues. Why? Because the other deputies told us Dove had called them after a visit. We'd done nothing wrong but one of the deputies told us, quote, "Lee's been having a tough time." A few minutes later, we were let go.
OLSON: I've been in totalitarian societies, I was in Bulgaria before the fall of the wall and the iron curtain and it's real spooky. And I think this is one aspect that you'd be worried about, but even more than that, I think that the average traveler traveling on the interstate highway in this country would never imagine this kind of thing had happen to him.
TUCHMAN: Attorney Olson and the new sheriff both say the Nevada attorney general's office is investigating the situation. The attorney adding he has been informed that Deputy Dove and one or more of his colleagues are being investigated for at least 38 similar forfeiture stocks. New sheriff says the stops have now been suspended, but is Deputy Dove still with the department? The answer is yes. But Sheriff Allen wouldn't say if he's been taken off active duty during this investigation. He did say Deputy Dove is still being paid.
And what about the $40,000 seized from this driver? It has been returned as part of an out of court settlement.
COOPER: And Gary Tuchman joins us now. It's really fascinating to hear these reports. What happens to the money after the police take it?
TUCHMAN: The police spend it and also the district attorney's office spend it. Different counties that do forfeitures, Anderson, have different formulas for how much money they get. But the - who take the money, spend the money, and it's all legal. Supposed to do for professional purposes, police can use it to approve a police station, to buy new weapons, to buy new cars. They're not supposed to use it for dinners out and bowling parties, our research shows. Many police departments have done it over the years, but if they pull over people who they really believe are drug dealers or human smugglers, it's all good, but when they people who they know are innocent? It's all bad.
COOPER: Hmm. Gary Tuchman, I appreciate it. Thanks for staying on top of it. Just ahead, the latest in the breaking news out of Saudi Arabia. Tonight, King Abdullah has died.
COOPER: We are going to check back in on the latest in the breaking news we brought you at the top of the broadcast. Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah has died at the age of 90. Half-brother crown prince Salman is the new king. Senior international correspondent Nic Robertson joins me again. Do we know much about - about Salman?
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, he certainly had a lot of experience as an administrator. He was a governor of Riyadh for about the last 40 or so years. He's viewed by some as a conservative. Others have told me that he is also had something of a moderate as well. That seems conflicting, but bottom line here is this is another old man, 79, and not in the best of health, Anderson.
COOPER: In terms of, I've read a lot that he's a strong supporter of Wahhabism and that there were other people that if Abdullah had really wanted more reforms or a reformer, there are other people he might have selected.
ROBERTSON: The problem that he would have had doing that is that it's not only him involved in the selection as a counsel that was appointed to oversee this election because behind the scenes, there are machinations, you know, who gets the power, it's been long after - and out in that family, Anderson.
COOPER: Nic Robertson, I appreciate the update. That does it for us. We'll see you again at 11 p.m. Eastern. Another edition of "360." Morgan Spurlock "Inside Man" starts now.