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CNN'S AMANPOUR
Iran Making Progress in Nuclear Talks; U.N. Says 12 Million Syrians in Need of Aid; Imagine a World
Aired March 5, 2015 - 14:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight: the Iranian foreign minister tells me a nuclear deal could be very close and blasts Benjamin
Netanyahu's efforts to scuttle it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAVAD ZARIF, FOREIGN MINISTER, IRAN: I can see that he is trying and some people who associate with him try to create an atmosphere that's of -- an
atmosphere of hysteria, an atmosphere of fearmongering.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Also ahead: Syria's civil war, two high-profile U.N. mediators have already quit.
Can the latest, Staffan de Mistura, do any better?
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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.
The Israeli prime minister may consider it quote, "a very bad deal," but it appears that an agreement with Iran over its nuclear program could be
moving closer tonight.
The United States and five other nations are in talks with Iran in Switzerland; the U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry saying that negotiation
will not be derailed by Benjamin Netanyahu's speech to the U.S. Congress earlier this week.
Iran is also a key player, of course, in the war against ISIS in Iraq, where Iranian-backed forces and the Iraqi army are battling to liberate
Tikrit.
Between several rounds of negotiations in Montreux today, Iran's foreign minister, Javad Zarif, joined me to talk about these vital issues and he
says all sides are making tough choices to try to close that nuclear deal.
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AMANPOUR: Dr. Zarif, welcome back to the program.
ZARIF: Happy to be with you.
AMANPOUR: So let me ask you, is a deal imminent?
ZARIF: Well, it can be if there is a political will on all sides to make the decisions that there need to be made. We are -- we have made some
progress. But there are issues that are left to be decided.
So we will have to work very, very hard for the next few weeks.
AMANPOUR: Are the issues around sanctions?
Are the issues around the length of time?
For instance, President Obama this week said that the deal would require a halt of a lot of the nuclear activity for about 10 years at least.
ZARIF: Well, I'm not going to negotiate on the air. There are a lot of details that need to be discussed. We had made some progress. The object
of this exercise is to ensure that Iran's nuclear program will always remain peaceful and to remove all the restrictions that have been imposed
on Iran in our view unjustifiably.
That is why we believe that we can, in fact, reach an agreement if there is the necessary political will to make the tough choices. And everybody has
to make tough choices. We have made the choice to engage in negotiations although we believe that the -- this entire exercise was unnecessary. This
was a manufactured crisis as we have seen.
Time and again, people have been predicting for the past 20 years that Iran was a year away from making a bomb and that prediction has been proven
wrong time and again.
You can either have sanctions and continue to seek the path of confrontation or try to resolve this issue through negotiations and through
an agreement.
I believe we are very close to the latter. But if your people try to choose the former, that is their prerogative. Well, that's a wrong
decision that they'll be making.
AMANPOUR: So let me pick up on several things.
You believe you're quite close to making a deal, that it could be possible. You obviously are referring to the speech by the Israeli prime minister in
Congress. As he was trying to make sure that deal didn't get signed or done, what was the effect on you all around the negotiating table?
ZARIF: Well, there was no effect on the negotiating table but I can see that he is trying and some people who associate with him try to create an
atmosphere that -- of an atmosphere of hysteria, an atmosphere of fearmongering, based on lies and deception. That tried to prevent a deal
from taking shape. And I do not see why because I -- the only reason, the only explanation that you can have here is that some people consider peace
and stability as an existential threat, because a deal cannot be threatening to anybody unless you want conflict and tension and mistrust
and crises.
AMANPOUR: You also refer to what was important and that was the idea of lifting sanctions in exchange for making sure that your program remains
entirely peaceful. Are you making progress and is there a satisfactory answer to lifting sanctions?
ZARIF: Well, not yet but we have been making progress on a lot of issues and we are dealing with those issues now. We cannot see this puzzle until
we have finished it and that is why we have resolved bits and pieces of each issue. But we are still some time away from resolving all the issues
so that we can have a -- I believe a nice and acceptable picture that is in the interest of everybody, what we call a win-win situation for all.
AMANPOUR: You didn't answer the question; you said you weren't going to negotiate in public. But let me just put it to you blankly then.
Is a 10-year moratorium on nuclear activity acceptable to Iran?
ZARIF: Well, it depends on how you define it. We have been talking about accepting by Iran, voluntarily, certain limitations. We have a huge
peaceful nuclear program, which we have built by our scientists, by our own people. And we -- this is a program that has been moving forward.
We have accepted and if we have an agreement, we will accept certain limitations for a certain period of time. But I'm not prepared to
negotiate on the air, as you said, the length of time or what are these limitations that we will be voluntarily accepting.
AMANPOUR: Can I move on to Iraq? A great focus right now on the town of Tikrit, where Iraqi forces, other militias and crucially Iranian forces are
engaged in trying to push ISIS back.
I would like to play for you a little bit of a sound bite from the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff to Congress regarding Iran's involvement.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEN. MARTIN DEMPSEY, CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: This is the most overt conduct of Iranian support in the form of artillery and other things.
Frankly, it will only be a problem if it results in sectarianism. If they perform in a credible way, rid the city of Tikrit, turn it back over to its
inhabitants, then it will, in the main, have been a positive thing in terms of the counter-ISIL campaign.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: How do you respond to what the general said?
And how involved is, for instance, General Suleimani of the Quds Force of the Revolutionary Guard?
ZARIF: Well, we do not have forces on the ground in Iraq. We've always had advisers, helping the Iraqi government and the Iraqi army. We were the
first to come to the assistance of the Iraqis, both in Baghdad as well as in Irbil when the ISIS started moving in in massive numbers last summer.
So we've been there. We've been assisting the Iraqi people. Everybody knows that without our assistance, things would have been different in
Iraq. We are in Iraq in terms of advisers and other support. But without military personnel on the ground, fighting forces on the ground as you say,
boots on the ground, in order to help this very serious global fight against these extremists and terrorist groups. We hope that this could
unite all Iraqis. Because -- and all peoples of the region because in spite of the short-sighted attempts in the past, now everybody has come to
the conclusion that these extremist forces are a threat to everybody. They cannot be contained in Syria or in Iraq or in only several countries in
this region.
This is a global threat. You see the implications in Europe; you see the fact that they are recruiting from Europe. So this is a global problem.
It requires global cooperation and global work.
AMANPOUR: Foreign Minister, President Rouhani has been tweeting about the talks. Let me just read you one of them.
Quote, "The international community happy with progress of Iran talks as it will result in more development, commerce, economic and cultural
cooperation."
Obviously the president and yourself to an extent have staked the success of this government on these talks.
How are you doing in trying to make sure this happens and that any kind of deal is accepted by the hardliners in your own country and is acceptable to
the Supreme Leader, Ali Khamenei?
ZARIF: Well, this is not about domestic politics. President Rouhani and I have never played domestic politics like this. Actually, this is not about
national politics. This is about resolving an issue through diplomatic means that has been preventing tranquility and cooperation in our region
for the past 15 years.
This was a crisis that was manufactured from the very beginning and the sooner we put an end to it, the sooner we can get to issues that are
serious challenges and serious opportunities, both for our country as well as for our region and for the world.
That is why we will not play domestic politics with this. President Rouhani will not play domestic politics with this. We want to resolve this
issue and we will do our best provided that our partners are prepared to walk this road with us.
AMANPOUR: Well, let me ask you about domestic politics, because in early January, President Rouhani gave quite a tough speech at a meeting of
economic and business leaders. And he did lay down the gauntlet. I guess how is it going?
Is he going to be able to pursue the economic reforms, the taxation that he needs, particularly as oil prices are plummeting?
ZARIF: Well, we have shown that, in spite of sanctions and in spite of external pressure, we have been able to move forward. We have brought the
inflation down. We have increased growth. We took office in a very difficult circumstances and we're moving forward.
And we believe that we will build the necessary consensus. We welcome the possibility of engaging in a debate, domestic debate as well as regional
and global debate on what is the best future for our country and for the region.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And when we come back, as much as it's fighting ISIS in Iraq, Iran has been fighting to prop Bashar al-Assad's regime in Syria. So can
there ever be a political resolution to that country's four-year civil war? I ask the U.N. special envoy, recently back from Damascus -- next.
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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.
It is a tragedy of unimaginable proportions and this month the war in Syria enters its 5th year. More than 220,000 people have been killed, according
to the United Nations, almost 4 million people have fled the country and 12 million Syrians inside and out desperately need help.
As we said, Iran has been Assad's biggest backer. And today, I asked the foreign minister about the end game there.
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ZARIF: Had it not been for those who recognize the realities in this region, you would have had ISIL rather than controlling Mosul controlling
Damascus and Baghdad. We've got to be thankful that this did not happen. And we need to work together in order to make sure that we have a political
process in Syria with -- which is inclusive, involves everybody, because there is not going to be a military solution to this crisis.
AMANPOUR (voice-over): The U.N.'s current special envoy to Syria is Staffan de Mistura. He took on the role in July 2014 after his
predecessor, Lakhdar Brahimi, stepped down, saying that he was getting nowhere and before that, Kofi Annan, the former U.N. secretary-general,
also quit and blamed it on a lack of international unity.
So can Mr. de Mistura avoid the same quagmire?
Let's ask him.
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AMANPOUR: Welcome to the program.
STAFFAN DE MISTURA, U.N. SPECIAL ENVOY TO SYRIA: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: You have a really unenviable job.
Can you make any headway? Your two distinguished predecessors couldn't.
Well, one thing I can tell you, we will try very hard. There have been a lot of difficult moments . I had very distinguished predecessors. But
perhaps the time is changed and perhaps there are new factors.
One new factor in the whole picture is the arrival of this horror called Daish and the other one is its intervention by the international community
to control or in a way effectively demolish ISIS.
These are two new factors.
AMANPOUR: You were saying and we've been looking at this that there are so many factors involved. This is not just one government or one opposition,
it's just -- how different is it to anything you've ever seen before?
DE MISTURA: Christiane, I've been 43 years with U.N., of which I've spent most of the time in 21 conflict areas. We met each other in Afghanistan,
in Iraq and many other places, Somalia. This is the most complex I've ever seen.
Why?
Well, because in particular, there are so many players, so many stakeholders. I've been counting, about 18 when you look at it, between
regional countries involved, about international players and countries involved and internal and external. That's what makes it very complicated.
AMANPOUR: Eighteen is a huge, huge number of people to try to balance. And every time you turn around, there's another group that's jumped in.
Before we get to how to solve this, I see this massive great tome, this huge book that you brought in. And we have said that nearly a quarter of
a million people have died.
What is in that book?
DE MISTURA: See, this was prepared by women of Syria who gave it to me. And for the first time I realized what we have to again reassert. And you
have been doing it today. Well, this book is showing us these are people.
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: So every stage --
DE MISTURA: -- every page has a name of a man, a woman, a child with a name, a date of birth, a location. These were people would have been alive
if we had stopped this conflict before.
And this is a small book because they should have been two of them by now, 220,000. Can't we realize that this conflict will lead only to one
suffering, the people of Syria?
AMANPOUR: It really is extraordinary. And we can't believe it. And even Valerie Amos, who has been the U.N. humanitarian director, has said that
every time we say unprecedented there is another worse atrocity that negates the previous unprecedented.
But is there a military solution? You actually just heard the Iranian foreign minister, who, let us face it, their forces have kept President
Assad alive, saying that there's no military solution to this.
Is there? Are they just going to fight it out to the end?
DE MISTURA: You see, that's the paradox and I think that's why we have to remember this book . That's why we have to remember what the Syrian people
are telling us. Enough. We can't sustain this anymore. This has been too long. Just because we are in the wrong place, because when I meet every
interlocutor, they all say to me and they say there is no military solution. They all agree there is only a political solution. But then
somehow there is an automatic gear on that horrible car called the war which goes on and on.
So --
AMANPOUR: Time for a military solution.
DE MISTURA: Of course. And believing that there is one, that's why we have to break it by remembering the people and making some reduction of the
violence in order to produce a confidence building nation and say, OK. You're saying that? Let's test it.
AMANPOUR: Iran so far has been cut out of any official role in the Geneva talks, in the existing framework towards a possible peace solution.
You're saying that Iran has to be involved, again, do you think times have changed so much with these nuclear negotiations, ISIS, Daish, that the U.S.
will accept an Iranian role now?
DE MISTURA: I can't speak for the U.S. What I can do is saying that without Iran involved in the process of a political solution for Syrian
conflict it would be a big mistake. There is a major regional player. It is involved. It has influence on the Syrian government and it has a stake.
We need to involve them.
That's how you get political solution, not by excluding people but including them in what should be a political process.
AMANPOUR: Well, I assume you would agree, then, that Iran's role would be to persuade their client, let's say -- Bashar al-Assad -- to be serious
around the negotiating table. Your predecessor said that in the last rounds of negotiating, the opposition came with a credible plan, compromise
and the Assad government just stonewalled and stumbled and refused to give any ground at all.
You've just come from Damascus. President Assad seems to me to think that he's in the winning seat right now, that he has the U.S. behind him in what
he claims is a joint fight against ISIS.
Is he ready for compromise?
DE MISTURA: Well, let's put it like this. I think everybody including Bashar al-Assad and President Assad and everyone else in their own heart
realize that there is no military victory here. They may pretend, they may hope but they know that it cannot be done.
The proof is four years, 220,000 people killed, 1 million wounded, no real change on the ground except one advance here and one retreat there. So
bottom line, I believe that if we get everyone around the table, especially because everybody has realized about this new factor -- look at this map,
if I may.
AMANPOUR: Please.
DE MISTURA: This map is showing to all of us how actually ISIS, Daish, is in Syria and in Iraq. So they're looking, waiting for take advantage of
the conflict.
AMANPOUR: So the green there is where ISIS is.
DE MISTURA: Correct.
AMANPOUR: And you're trying to get as part of your step-by-step peace at least a freeze around Aleppo.
DE MISTURA: Correct.
AMANPOUR: And they're how close to Aleppo?
DE MISTURA: Twenty-two kilometers.
AMANPOUR: And what happens if Aleppo falls to ISIS?
DE MISTURA: Well, first of all, if it falls, it will be a humanitarian tragedy because we have at least 400,000 refugees in addition to the 0.6
million which are in Turkey, the 3.2 million in total.
AMANPOUR: So another half a million going to Turkey?
DE MISTURA: Exactly, which would be a humanitarian tragedy. If then it falls into the hands of ISIS, you can imagine would be a massacre. We
cannot afford it. No one can afford it. We should not allow that.
That why we need a freeze, reduction of violence and in order to make sure that even a beam of hope goes in, don't forget, the Syrian people need that
beam of hope. They are asking for that. They need to believe that there is something beyond that.
AMANPOUR: But President Assad still thinks he's the legitimate leader of all Syrians.
What is going to persuade him? Or how does he see a political resolution?
Do you say that he is part of a transitional movement right now?
DE MISTURA: What I said the other day was that he is part of what needs to be a formula for reduction of violence. Whoever has got weapons,
airplanes, barrel bombs, artillery and on the other side mortar shelling, the opposition, needs to be part of the reduction of violence.
As far as the future, let's be frank. It's not up to the U.N., to me or anyone else that should decide except the Syrian people who should be part
of the future. But that's why we need a political process. And without excluding anyone so that they would then come to that conclusion.
AMANPOUR: Is he willing to have a political process that doesn't exclude anyone?
DE MISTURA: Well, I can't answer for him.
AMANPOUR: But what did he say to you when you were there talking to him?
DE MISTURA: Yes, we didn't talk about that at this stage. We were talking about how to reduce violence because I was having in mind this book. And I
sought at this stage -- the first thing is in every peace plan is first reduce the violence, cease-fires. We call them freezes because the
previous cease-fires were not that good.
Second, a political process. We will get there. We will see. But we need to test it. The time has come to put pressure in a way for a political
process. We can't go on six years, seven years and have this book that high and the whole region exploding.
AMANPOUR: Let's hope not. Staffan de Mistura, U.N. special envoy for Syria, thank you very much for joining me.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And of course the high price of doing little in Syria is just what we've been talking about. And after a break, imagine a world where
you wake up to find that you are hundreds of thousands of years older than you thought you were. It's the world we live in -- when we come back.
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AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, a long look back. Imagine a world where one recent discovery makes you 400,000 years older. Not a nice thought.
But this is about a fossil of half a jawbone that was dug up in Ethiopia last year and finally dated today. Africa is the continent known as the
cradle of humankind, older than any other human fossil ever found, this jawbone dates back 2.8 million years and could have belonged to one of the
very first human ancestors, making us almost half a million years older than we thought.
These discoveries have been coming relatively fast and furious. In 1974 -- I did say relatively -- Lucy, the 3 million-year-old skeleton of a
humanlike primate, was also discovered in the same area. And just last year, I visited this discovery that was unveiled at London's Natural
History Museum, evidence of the 900,000-year-old footprint and tools left by ancient humans here in Britain.
As for the last find, the fossilized jawbone, its discoverers say it exposes a period of history that has hitherto been shrouded in mystery,
bringing humanity closer to finding out exactly what it took to be human.
That's it for our program tonight. Remember you can always see the whole show online at amanpour.com, and follow me on Facebook and Twitter. Thank
you for watching and goodbye from London.
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