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CNN'S AMANPOUR
Ukraine Asks for More Western Support; Femi Kuti on His Father's Legacy of Activism; Corruption in Nigeria; Imagine a World. Aired 3-3:30p ET
Aired March 27, 2015 - 15:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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[15:01:47] CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Tonight: a war of economic survival; while Ukraine fights Russian-backed rebels, she opens a new front
against corruption. We speak to the Ukrainian finance minister, Natalie Jaresko.
Plus as Nigeria goes to the polls, one of the nation's biggest musical stars, Femi Kuti, on telling the country's complex story through song.
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AMANPOUR: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the special weekend edition of our program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.
And this week was dominated by the extraordinary story that kept unfolding around the tragic air crash in the Alps, the notion that this was a
deliberate act by the copilot; the deliberate killing of 150 people, including himself, has left the world reeling.
The last time there was such shock and disbelief was when Russian-backed rebels shot down MH17 over Ukraine last July, deliberately killing 298
people. And it is to Ukraine that we now turn, because while the cease- fire in the east remains shaky, the democratically elected government has very publicly gone to war against corruption.
President Petro Poroshenko sat across that table and sacked that man, one of the most powerful oligarchs and a local governor, Igor Kolomoisky.
Earlier that week, two state security officials were arrested for corruption at a cabinet meeting, an event broadcast on state television.
The nation's finance minister, Natalie Jaresko, was in London this week, seeking help for Ukraine's ailing economy and talking up the nation's long
overdue crackdown on corruption. And she joined me here to talk about it in the studio.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Minister Jaresko, welcome to the program.
NATALIE JARESKO, UKRAINE'S FINANCE MINISTER: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: Thank you for joining me.
Let's get to your brief. You're in London; you've met with the chancellor, George Osborne. You have got a heck of a job ahead of you, trying to turn
your country into a solvent one and trying to reform it.
It's pretty bad. You have taken such a major economic hit.
How can you even get out of this wartime reality that you're in right now?
JARESKO: Well, I think that this is definitely the most difficult time in our history but it's a time when the Ukrainian people are more united than
ever. So the war has been a terrible thing. It's had a huge human cost, 6,000 lives, civilian and military, 15,000 injured, over a million
internally displaced people in Ukraine, in the middle of Europe in the 21st century.
But that said, the Ukranian people are more unified and have a clearer vision than ever that they want a European system of values. They want to
live in a European civilization and that means fairness in taxation, fairness in business, it means economic growth, it means anti-corruption.
And those are the reforms that we've undertaken today.
AMANPOUR: How? What is the reform that you think is going to stick to have, let's say, economic growth, because obviously the war hasn't just had
a terrible toll on human life but also on business life -- and I mean we're seeing factories and all sorts of businesses that have been destroyed as
well.
[15:05:14] JARESKO: Yes, 20 percent of the economy; last year we had GDP decline of some 7 percent. We're expecting again 5.5 percent this year.
But if we can, this year, with the support of the IMF and the bilateral support that we've gotten, multilateral support, if we can stabilize the
financial and banking system, then I believe that stability in the currency and the banking system will be the base for growth in 2016.
AMANPOUR: Sadly, one of the things that Ukraine is known for is pretty much wholesale corruption and pilfering of the national wealth, especially
during the years of so-called democracy.
How do you get around that blight?
JARESKO: There are two sides to it. One is a stick and one is a carrot. One is enforcement, so our new anti-corruption bureau, which will have
special law enforcement powers to actually crack down on corruption and second is policy changes, things like e-procurements, things like
transparency in budgeting, moving to a system where we eliminate the ability for corruption to exist.
AMANPOUR: What about the oligarchs and the power that they wield?
You know there was a moment where everybody came together in sort of a patriotic fervor. There were oligarchs who were made governors of various
regions and now we read that there's a big clash between President Poroshenko and one of the big oligarchs.
These people, they like their wealth.
How do you convince them to work for the greater good?
JARESKO: I think first and foremost what you're seeing is a reaction to the president and the prime minister together passing legislation that
protects the states' rights in companies where there's a majority ownership. And this is a vested interest that's showing that he has a
disagreement.
You'd have to expect that kind of reaction.
But this is a drawing in the -- a line in the sand for our president, for our prime minister. He said that this is unbecoming of a civil servant,
because he is a governor. He said that he's not allowed to have private armies; all of these private volunteer battalions are --
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: -- sort of like a militia of his own.
JARESKO: -- but they're being wrapped into the national guard and they really don't have a chance to continue as independent battalions going
forward. That process is underway.
And then finally I think it's important that all of these private guards, all these private security that showed up in Kiev the other night were told
to leave with 24 hours' notice. And it's my understanding that in fact they have left and the situation is safe.
AMANPOUR: So we've spoken for five minutes and I haven't commented on the fact that the Ukrainian finance minister is American with a very strong
American accent.
How on Earth does that happen?
JARESKO: Yes, I'm born and raised in Chicago. So I am a Ukrainian American by birth and always have been a Ukrainian. Now I'm a Ukrainian
citizen, a very proud Ukrainian citizen. I've spent the last 23 years in Ukraine in one form or another, trying to take opportunity and potential
and make it real in the business sector, in diplomacy. And given the opportunity by the president and the prime minister to serve at this very
critical time in Ukraine's history, I couldn't say no.
AMANPOUR: And right now you may still be in a wartime economy and a wartime situation.
I read this week something that shocked me, that President Putin, the Kremlin, has made a nuclear threat against Denmark if they join NATO's
missile shield. And it's all part of the ratcheting up tensions over Ukraine.
I mean, can you even understand that?
JARESKO: It's very unfortunate; I saw the same report. I think it's even more than ratcheting up the tensions on Ukraine. I think this is a project
to challenge the world order, to challenge the peace of the post-World War II Europe that we know and that we feel comfortable in. I think that
Ukraine is unfortunately feeling the brunt of this, taking the brunt of this battle.
But really the challenge is much greater, whether it's flying over NATO airspace, whether it's incursions into other territory or taking an
Estonian agent from one side of the border to another. I think these are all testing of the unity of the transatlantic system.
AMANPOUR: What about the durability and the stability of the Minsk agreement?
Is this cease-fire holding? Again, latest news indicates that there may be, you know, some of the Russian backed rebels wanting to expand their
territory even now.
JARESKO: Yes, it appears the cease-fire is very fragile. We deal with that all the time. But I think President Poroshenko said the cease-fire,
the Minsk agreement is our hope.
Reality is very complicated. But we will continue to do -- and Ukraine has done everything to follow the Minsk agreement, including removing our heavy
military, our heavy artillery from the line of demarcation at the same time that that heavy artillery on the other side is shooting at us.
So we continue to try and push for peace.
AMANPOUR: One of the things that has kept Europe, Ukraine sort of hooked to Russia is the energy. And you mentioned energy.
Is Russia going to be able to blackmail Ukraine over the energy like it has done over so many, many years?
You going to continue to buy it from there?
JARESKO: No, I think the type of blackmail, the type of leverage that they've had in the past is no longer available.
[15:10:00] In our ability and our work over the last year to diversify our energy supplies and we've moved to, as I said, importing reverse flow gas
from Europe. And that has enabled us to have much more level discussions.
In addition, we've reduced significantly our energy usage. So we're just not importing the amount of gas that we have in the past.
AMANPOUR: Do you want the U.K., the United States, the West to provide you weapons still?
The NATO's sacure (ph) said perhaps there will have to be weapons coming to the Ukrainian government.
JARESKO: Well, I do believe Ukraine deserves to be able to defend itself. So defensive weapons are something that we're asking for, we would like to
get from the U.S., U.K. and others. It's something that I believe is something that's fair.
Ukrainians are today defending Europe, defending the freedom, the values, the principles by which the post-World War II peace and safety of the world
has been saved. And I think that the Ukrainians are paying the greatest sacrifice. So yes, we'll need more military support. We'll need more
humanitarian aid and we will need more financial support to get through this very difficult time.
AMANPOUR: We've been following the case of the Ukrainian pilot, Nadiya Savchenko. And she is again on hunger strike and what is the Ukrainian
government doing to get her released?
Do you have any hope at all of getting her released?
JARESKO: Of course we have hope. A woman with that strength of character and that backbone has to inspire hope in everyone around her. She's a true
heroine. I think the government is doing everything possible to try and have her released along with other hostages, both in Moscow and elsewhere,
part of the Minsk 2 agreements. And so it's one of our key objectives in the Minsk agreement.
AMANPOUR: Have you made any progress?
JARESKO: Not yet. But we're very hopeful. Always have to maintain hope.
AMANPOUR: Natalie Jaresko, minister of finance, thank you very much indeed for joining me.
JARESKO: Thank you very much.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And while corruption is a crippling problem in Ukraine, it is also one of the biggest issues in this weekend's Nigerian election, one of
the front-runners telling me earlier that it was a matter of life and death.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MUHAMMADU BUHARI, NIGERIAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: There are serious students of this country that said unless Nigeria kills corruption,
corruption will kill Nigeria.
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AMANPOUR (voice-over): So when we come back, a different view on the Nigerian election from one of its premier artists, the musician, Femi Kuti
-- that's next.
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AMANPOUR: Welcome back to the program.
Nigeria goes to the polls this weekend in a hotly contested presidential election, which has already been delayed once by security concerns.
President Goodluck Jonathan takes on military strongman General Buhari. The war against Boko Haram and the war on corruption are high on the
agenda. Both impact everyday life for everybody in Nigeria, which is reflected in its art.
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[15:15:00] AMANPOUR (voice-over): One of Nigeria's most famous musicians is Femi Kuti, an international recording artist but also part of a musical
dynasty.
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AMANPOUR: His father, Fela Kuti, was an African superstar, the pioneer of afrobeat but also a political figure. He was jailed by General Buhari when
he was last in power back in 1985 and Kuti's music reflected the politically realities of Nigeria then.
Now his son is getting political with his latest album. So I asked him what artist and others in Nigeria expect from this election.
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AMANPOUR: Femi Kuti, welcome to the program.
FEMI KUTI, MUSICIAN: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: What are you hoping the day after the election, what are you and Nigerian people expecting after this latest election?
KUTI: First of all, I think everybody -- most of us are hoping for a very peaceful election and I think basically that's what most people are hoping
for. The election goes smoothly, smoothly and we can all get on with our lives again.
AMANPOUR: What is it about life that you want to be improved? You wake up every morning in Nigeria and what is it like for the ordinary person?
KUTI: Well for the average, ordinary person, I think life is very stressful; life is very difficult in all sectors, education, health, roads
-- I mean, name it. I mean, problems everywhere.
Having said this, we have to still remember the history of Nigeria, Africa. We have come a long way and probably we will take another -- it will take
some time for us to get our acts together.
I think speaking sincerely, I'm not one that has ever believed in the new transition that we have. I think the military have always interfered too
much in this new democratic process.
But basically I don't -- I am not one that would believe in anybody that's -- takes over or wins the next election.
AMANPOUR: You're coming to us from the shrine; it's very emblematic of your father, the great Fela Kuti, not just a musician but also a political
activist.
Tell me your story, because it was under the military government that your father and the shrine was burned and there was tragedy in your family
there.
KUTI: Yes. I mean, it was -- and all this started in the '70s from General Gowon, who was the military dictator at that time. And then it
passed on through General Obasanjo, then the civilian government, Shagari. And of course Buhari, who is the main opposition of today, who jailed my
father.
And the judge at that time in 1983 confessed that Buhari ordered him to jail my father and this was the reason why at the time, Babangida, General
Babangida took over with a coup. This was the reason he had to release my father, because the judge confessed that Buhari asked him to personally
make sure my father was locked up in prison.
So my father has always had so many obstacles and so many problems with the authorities here because of his songs, speaking against injustice, speaking
against corruption, for a better life, basically for Nigerians. Same which you use if Nigeria gets its act together, every Nigerian should be a
millionaire.
And so I think the deal like what he was singing about and so they always then came after him and beat him, locked him, I mean the story of my father
is every -- practically every part of his body was broken by beatings.
AMANPOUR: And you have become political, you say, in this election season. I want to play one of your latest and most famous songs right now, called
"Politics Na Big Business." I'm going to play a little bit of it and then we'll talk about it.
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AMANPOUR: So Femi, your words basically are the politicians will tell you what you want to hear just to win your votes. They say they'll make your
programs disappear just to win your vote.
I mean, you could say that about any country.
What is it that's made you political?
KUTI: I think that's obvious. My father -- I mean, I grew up in a household that was always about politics and from my early -- from when I
was 11, and the arrests of my father started, I mean, I was already becoming engaged, witnessing the beatings, his imprisonment, his
incarcerations and all this.
[15:20:00] So I think I have no -- it's -- my whole surrounding was about the welfare of my country and basically politics in Nigeria and Africa.
And then of course he influenced me by making me read books on Malcolm X, Martin Luther King and Dr. Kwame Nkrumah, Lumumba and my grandmother. So I
mean, I kind of followed pan-Africanism at a very large scale.
The shrine was built in honor of my father and great people who have fought for the emancipation of Africa. So basically the shrine is about this and
the shrine must stand for freedom, justice against corruption and for a better life basically. So this is what -- the symbol of the shrine is
this.
AMANPOUR: You describe the very painful ways he was beaten and incarcerated for his politics, his activism through his music.
Are you safe? I mean, you are activist as well as a musician.
Is that now, you know, an acceptable route of political discourse in Nigeria?
KUTI: I mean, in the past I've had my issues with the government, I mean, the shrine, the new shrine here has been raided a couple of times, but
since 2008, the Lagos State Government made the shrine a tourist attraction center and we have had little or no trouble.
And I think -- but this has to do with the fact that you have to remember my father's name has now become a global name. You have Jay Z and great
people in America and those in the "Fela!" play, the "Fela!" on Broadway play, the documentary, "Finding Fela" comes out. A lot of big rappers or
big musicians, Stevie Wonder, name them, a lot of -- Paul McCartney, so many people saying they are listening to my father, love his music, who are
inspired by his music. And so this is a very big plus for him.
Where I believe the authorities will have loved at his death for his name to just be over and done with, the greatest nation in the world comes up,
saying, oh, this man has been a great influence on us.
And then not forgetting the youths of Nigeria in Africa, all are identifying with his great musical works and he is like a symbol of freedom
for the young people of this country, people, young boys and girls, speak of him as if they were alive or around when he was in the '70s. And many
of them were not born at this time.
So many of them still love his music, play his music and listen to his music for inspiration and feel very connected with him, I would say. So he
is still very much alive in that respect.
AMANPOUR: Femi Kuti, part of a great Nigerian, a great African cultural and political legacy and legend, thank you so much indeed for joining me.
KUTI: Thank you very much.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Femi Kuti there, speaking from Lagos about politics, song and his father, the innovator and the popularize, as we said, of afrobeat, Fela
Kuti.
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AMANPOUR: And after a break, from voices for change to voices that have been silenced as we turn again to the tragedy in the Alps. It's been
confirmed that two great operatic talents were also lost in the Germanwings crash, two powerful voices lost but not forgotten. That's next.
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[15:25:50] AMANPOUR: And finally tonight, imagine the horror of a plane crash compounded by the horrible realization that this was deliberate. For
some reason, the copilot decided to end his life and the 149 other lives aboard that Germanwings flight to Dusseldorf this week.
Among the schoolchildren, the business people, the holiday makers, the newlyweds on board, there were two opera singers. Imagine a world robbed
of the sound of their music.
German contralto, Maria Radner, age 33, was traveling home with her baby and her husband; her beautiful voice will now only be remembered.
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AMANPOUR: She was young, a rising star, while her colleague and traveling companion, 54-year-old Oleg Bryjak, was an established celebrity already.
Together they had performed Wagner's opera, "Siegfried," that had been staged in Barcelona's Opera House.
Bryjak's powerful baritone saw him rise from humble beginnings in Kazakhstan under the Soviet Union to become a performer in demand the world
over. Now trustees and colleagues from the Opera House in Barcelona this week came outside to mourn their loss and to remember the passion that
those artists showed for their art.
And now we know this wasn't a tragic accident but that all 149 passengers were inexplicably taken by one man at the controls.
And that's it for our program tonight. Remember you can always see the whole show online at amanpour.com, and follow me on Facebook and Twitter.
Thanks for watching and goodbye from London; we leave you with the voice of Oleg Bryjak.
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END
