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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Less Than One Hour Until Baltimore Curfew; Protesters Marching In Philadelphia, Cincinnati; Police Van Carrying Gray Made Additional Stop; WJLA: Gray's Head Injury Matches Bolt In Van
Aired April 30, 2015 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is a really a synergy that's taking place, they're finding out about the system, young people being registered to vote and they're thinking about what is the possibility?
Just knowing the youngest state attorney in urban in America is rising in Baltimore 35, so young girls and look at her and say, this is what I can do and this is the very first time that they're becoming engaged. And that's why it's very dangerous for them to be called thugs when a year from now they'll have voting capacity to change the entire landscape of this City.
ANDERSON COPPER, AC360 HOST: Reverend, thank you for your...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.
COPPER: Councilman, thank you, I appreciate it. Thank you very much. If you are just joining us, there's a lot going on, I want to welcome you again from Baltimore, Day three of the curfew, an hour away now.
Protester still out both here and in the big way (ph) along the streets of Philadelphia as we've been showing you.
What begun as a rally in the city hall begun a march through the city. Now at one point, the crowd tried to march into a major artery interstate 95 packed with police who managed with a lot of punching and shoving and reportedly (inaudible) them away.
The (inaudible) "Philly is Baltimore", at this at the end of the day, and so the police here finished their investigation into Freddie Gray's death and turned the report over to Baltimore's states attorney. They did not make it public, they did however dropped a bombshell revealing an additional stop unknown until tonight that the van he was in May (ph).
Now all of that, there's a number of conflicting reports on how he sustained his fatal injuries surfaced. A lot to talk about, let's go first to our Chris Cuomo. Chris?
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey Anderson I'm just sitting (ph) here with the commissioner, he came out just to make sure thinks are going well. Tonight we're talking how the situation is different last night, the senator here a few (ph) and Elijah Cummings and there we're a lot of older citizens at the young people tonight.
They're angry because they feel that -- what they heard today is the beginning of the cover story for what happened to Freddie Gray. Do you understand why they might feel like that Commissioner?
COMMISSIONER ANTHONY BATTS, BALTIMORE POLICE: Tell Anderson Cooper, hello, I'm a big fan so it's a good afternoon to talk to him.
CUOMO: He's listening to you.
BATTS: I think it's a -- at this point in time it's an opportunity for the state attorney to look through the case at this point in time. I think everybody is trying to do the right thing. I don't think anyone is trying to coverup and trying to sweep anything under a carpet.
So, we hope that we keep moving and that everybody understands what's happening. And we just take a collective deep breath, this is a beautiful city, there's a lot of beautiful people. And understanding also is that people hurt. There is rage and understandably there's been a lot of life that is lost. But from our standpoint we're going to be as open, transparent and honest.
And, Miss Mosby is a very strong and capable state's attorney, have all the faith in the world that she's going to do a good job and I think that people should know at the end of the day that a good investigation was done and the state's attorney is going to do a great job too in moving forward.
CUOMO: You're going to ask you this but quickly -- and I know you don't want to talk about what you handed of because not it's somebody else's jurisdiction. Understood. When they hear that there's some information that leaks out that there was bolt in the van and the medical examiner says the injuries are consistent with that bolt, that's a lot for somebody to take in. Now, what happened to Freddie Gray from what we learned was about what happened in the van. Do you understand why that would be frustrating?
BATTS: Can I say this? Is that I think people are jumping to conclusions, it think it's unfortunate that these little things are coming out and I think that's inappropriate. I think people should take a deep breath and wait for the state's attorney to come out with the entire information and, you know, hopefully these little leaks won't poison what's happening until people have the whole story.
CUOMO: You're going to go up and say hello to the young men and women?
BATTS: Not right now, I'm trying to find out where my officers are to check on them real quick and, I always say hi to the young men and women and we're doing it on the next (ph) screen and making sure that everything is pretty much calm (ph).
CUOMO: Thank you for your time. BATTS: It's good to see you.
CUOMO: All right, appreciate it. All right Anderson, you know, it's interesting the way we meet the police chief, the commissioner was that -- somebody's car broke down, he got out of his car and came over and said, what happened, he was asking the guy for some tools. There was obvious shock in the face of the young man who was tying to fix his car.
You see and he's talking to him right now, you sure you don't need any help? (Inaudible) help him with the car. And look, you know, it's good politics but it's also important in this particular situation, whether or not he goes to this group of men and women off the street would be very different because they're angry. And yes, he's handed it off Anderson but, you know, these types of questions they need answers because the anger surrounding the unknown will only grow. And I think that's going to be the concern for the state's attorney and for his citizens in the community.
COPPER: And Chris, I thin you made an important point that, I mean there is so information we still do not know and it's very easy to jump to conclusions one way or the other. Obviously people want answer. A lot of people have opinions about what happened. But the actual facts, we don't know all the facts, they have not been released. The autopsy report has not even been released.
[2:05:03] CUOMO: That's the right point Anderson, and look, speculation is dangerous, sometimes knowing a little bit is worse than knowing nothing. Everything we learned to this point I would say from a legal analysis point, still cuts both ways even after everything we learned about this leak with the medical examiner and the bolt in the van and the injury. Even if that's all consistent we still don't know how that was done, was that done by Freddie Gray, did he put himself through that or did someone do it him?
The problem is the unknown fuel suspicion and that suspicion to people like us up the street, on this corner means it's a setup that they're not going to get justice. Even the police who are here, who are giving a lot of leeway to the people here, part of the reason they're doing it, they say in their own words is, we get why this would be frustrating to learn what they're learning.
So, there's a balance here, it was interesting to see the chief come up here this way, he did not address the crowd Anderson but, this is not going to be over, not investigative and not so shortly (ph).
COPPER: Chris, I appreciate the reporting, let's check in with you throughout this hour as curfew starts to approach. I want to Miguel Marquez. Miguel, how are things to where you are?
MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, they're good. They have taken over the street here at North Avenue. I can show you a little bit of the crowd here. The concern that they have -- that you and Chris we're just talking about is, you know, they said Freddie Gray did not kill himself, that's the one thing. So all of these leaks, what they have drawn from them is that they're strategically placed and they are there to prove that Mr. Gray somehow harmed himself. On that side of the street, that's right down -- near the site of Pennsylvania Avenue there, a lot of police presence, they are starting to gather on every corner.
The one important thing though is the police aren't wearing the riot gear, (inaudible) riot gear, some of them have shields, a lot of them don't. They are in the -- they're mixing with the crowd more freely. But -- both of these guys -- did you guys all go down to the City Hall today?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah.
MARQUEZ: And how long are you going to be out there?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All night, all day. All night, all day we're going to fight for Freddie Gray.
MARQUEZ: They would love to be out here all night all day but, you know, the last couple of days...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well I don't care about the curfew...
MARQUEZ: ... you have the curfew and they have -- reluctantly gone home. There is concern in future days of how this is going to go, but right now people I think are -- celebrating the fact that they went downtown and able to have -- able to come back up here. And now this -- this corner that was such a scene of violence and protest has become a bit a -- of renewal for this neighborhood.
And we hope that the worse is beyond us. Anderson.
COPPER: And in terms of how the police are handling things tonight, are they kind of less in view tonight on that corner?
MARQUEZ: They are less in view and it was interesting during the march. For the first time police actually lead the march, blocked off traffic, walked along with marchers as well, they -- there is a presence, the helicopter was overheard making announcements that they had to disperse a little while ago.
There is that police presence here reminding them that the police are here. So my guess is, despite people wanting to stay out here all night they're probably going to reluctantly go home as they have the last two nights. But, there is sort of a growing, I think confidence amongst this group that their message is being heard and they want the government here to know that, you know, they like to see action and soon. Anderson.
COPPER: Miguel Marquez, Miguel thank you so very much. I want to go to our Poppy Harlow who is standing by in Philadelphia who's been monitoring this roving group, who's been moving throughout the city, Poppy, what's going on there?
POPPY HARLOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They're continuing to move again, there's no curfew in this city, the police have told me throughout the day. As long as it's peaceful and not violent, they can go as long as they want. Now, they're doing (ph) every protester that I talked to Anderson says...
Do you want to talk to us? We're live on CNN right now.
Go ahead -- let me explain one thing, he's talking about the altercation that we saw on our air that happened right -- getting on I-95, interstate 95 about an hour ago. We're you in that group?
ED REESE (ph), PROTESTER: Yes, I was.
HARLOW: Can you tell me about it?
ED REESE (ph): We came up, we just wanted to walk down the freeway. As soon -- we came to the freeway, as soon as we walked up they started pushing us with their knife sticks and had their batons ready. They we're hitting us with their bikes, they had their horses and all that other thing (ph) that they do.
Trying to intimidate us, and I got hit in the chest a few times. A few police officers put their hands on me and told me I couldn't move their hands. Listen, we're here because we're angry.
[21:10:03] HARLOW: I know.
ED REESE (ph): We're angry about this system that we've live in forever. There's martial law in Baltimore, there's been martial law in black neighborhoods forever.
HARLOW: Can I ask you your name sir?
ED REESE (ph): Ed Reese (ph).
HARLOW: Ed Reese (ph). One of the things I've been asking as I've been on the streets here today is what do you want to see? What's your big goal, what's your long-term hope?
ED REESE (ph): We want equality of justice. That's what this is about. It's not people getting killed it's about equality of justice. It's about being seen as equals in the eyes of the law.
HARLOW: We're you there in front of the federal prison -- just about half ago, Anderson a big group -- all of you guys stopped in front of the federal prison I think for about 15 minutes.
ED REESE (ph): Yes.
HARLOW: And what I saw when I looked up through the thin windows where some of the inmates flicking their lights on and off, pounding on the glass, what was that moment like for you and what was -- why did you guys congregate there?
ED REESE (ph): It was powerful and we're here to say that we're not going to just let them walk all over us. We're citizens of this country. I'm just as important as you.
HARLOW: You are
ED REESE (ph): And they should see that.
HARLOW: You are.
ED REESE (ph): They don't see that. In our neighborhood, its police above citizen, in your neighborhood its citizens above police, they don't know that. The police have no integrity when they come into our neighborhood.
HARLOW: I think I'll let you go and keep marching but tell me one thing, what is your hope for the -- a year from now, how do you want to see things different? When your talking to your lawmakers what can they do?
ED REESE (ph): Honestly I have no idea. I want -- listen, I just want the police to be held accountable. I don't understand why -- it's hard to believe that a police officer was shooting unarmed men and then say, my life was in danger and be lying when the police have been known to be dirty for many years.
Police have been -- in cahoots with the mob and all types of other crime syndicates and suddenly when a black guy gets shot, the police -- oh he's in trouble (ph). This (ph) approach, police can just get away with anything when it comes to a black person.
HARLOW: Thank you for talking to me.
ED REESE (ph): No problem
HARLOW: And I know you got to get on with the group but I appreciate hearing from you, thank you guys. Anderson back to you.
COPPER: Poppy thanks, that's the scene in Philadelphia. When we come back, all we know and all we don't know about Freddie Gray's fatal injury (ph). I want to check in with our Jason Carroll standing by. Jason where are you in Baltimore?
JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well we've been standing out there with this corner (ph) North and Pennsylvania where a helicopter has been overhead, tying to encourage these people out here to get out of the street. This is the woman has been organizing the effort to try to get some of these people here out of the street, Reverend Pamela Couma (ph) was out here earlier this week Anderson, out there again today, how is everything going so far?
They're still out in the street, we heard police, they want them out of the street, they're not out of the street. We're less than an hour now from Curfew.
REVEREND PAMELA COUMA (PH), PROTEST ORGANIZER: Well, they're adding their concern. They're saying that they wanted their voices being heard. I was talking to some of them and I was pulling away individually tying to get the ones that was a little more fired up, just pull them in the sides talking to them. Just because a lot of them, because they've been out here all day they haven't really heard the news and the updates and different things, just kind of still trying to beat up on the police and I said the police -- it's not in their hands (ph) anymore.
CARROLL: Right, you believe that some of these leaks that have come out may have actually been helpful in terms of taking some of the pressure off police?
COUMA (PH): Yes. I believe it's been taking some of the pressure off of the police because, the police are right now -- well not right now but from -- this morning back has been like the issue. They've been the hot -- they're boiling some -- the young people. They've been the enemy for the young people. And just need the young people to know, hey guys, it's out of the police hands now, it's in the hands of the justice system.
So we need to allow the process to go the way it need to go. And urge young people guys, don't rush the process, any good thing takes time, allow it to be done in a timely fashion so we can know they really spent time to find out what really happened to Freddie?
CARROLL: All right, thank you very much. I really appreciate that. As we stand here I know you're going to go get and try to get some of these people out of the street...
COUMA (PH): We're tying to get them out of the streets guys.
CARROLL: All right, again Anderson less than hour away from curfew at this point. A lot people are still waiting to see what ends up happening here. See if we can get some of these people out of here, out of the street but as it stands out right now, they're still there, still protesting, still having their voices heard. Anderson?
COPPER: All right. Jason, thank you very much. As I said, coming up, all we know and what we don't know about Freddie Gray's fatal injury after a quick break.
COPPER: A major demonstration underway tonight was going on since dinner time in the City of Philadelphia, so far two arrest had been reported, very small number, we can see a huge number of people (ph) have been out peacefully protesting out for hours in the streets of Philadelphia before going further tonight.
And before hearing from our panel, the legal forensic and law enforcement experts, I do want to take a quick a moment and layout precisely what's known about what happened to Freddie Gray and what still needs to be know and there is an awful lot that still needs to be know.
Today CNN affiliate WJLA in Washington siding law enforcement who in turn are siding the medical examiner reporting that Mr. Gray sustained his fatal injuries in the back of the van. The Washington Post put out a report suggesting Mr. Gray injured himself, a lot of people have come out strongly contradicting that, that's out there as Miguel Marquez mentioned moments ago protesters are clearly been reacting to that throughout the day.
They're also reacting to the new and revised account that police today put out of how many times the transport van actually stopped. More on that now from our Randi Kaye.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: At the heart of the investigation, what went on inside the van transporting Freddie Gray, a van that we now know made four stops not three. After Gray was apprehended the van first stopped at Baker and Mount Streets to put Gray in leg irons. Now, authorities are revealing this new stop in the mix, Fremont and Mosher though details are scarce.
KEVIN DAVIS, BALTIMORE POLICE DEPUTY COMMISSIONER: We discovered this new stop based on out thorough and comprehensive and ongoing review of all CCTV cameras and privately owned cameras. And in fact this new stop was discovered from a privately owned camera.
KAYE: The van's third stop, Druid Hill and Dolphin, that particular stop is still under investigation. At the next stop, North and Pennsylvania, Gray is on the floor of the van.
BATTS: They picked him up off the floor and placed him on the seat at that time. He says he needs a med (ph).
KAYE: At this stop, police respond to an unrelated incident and put a second prisoner in the van.
A police document obtained by The Washington Post reveals that second prisoner has his own version of what happened inside the van.
[21:20:04] He claims Gray was banging against the walls and intentionally trying to injure himself. A metal barrier was separating the prisoner from Gray so he couldn't see him.
Gray Family Attorney Jason Downs disputes the idea that Gray caused his own fatal injury telling The Washington Post, "We disagree with any implication that Freddie Gray severed his own spinal cord."
Even so, a WJLA report quoting multiple law enforcement sources briefed on the findings says Gray's catastrophic injury was cased when he slammed into the back of the police transport van apparently breaking his neck.
WJLA says the head injury he had matches the bolt in the back of the police van. But Anderson Cooper a friend of one of the officers involved in Freddie Gray's arrest -- who has a different take -- suggesting the fatal injury did not occur inside the van, listen.
COPPER: What the officer told you about -- what the officer believes happened to Freddie Gray, does that officer believe that Freddie Gray was injured inside the paddy wagon or before?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People believes (ph) that Freddie Gray was injured outside of the paddy wagon before.
COPPER: While Freddie Gray was being arrested?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
KAYE: The Baltimore police investigation is now in the hands on the Maryland state attorney's office which says it does not plan to rely solely on police findings. But also the facts their office has gathered and verified. Randi Kaye, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COPPER: That on the table. I want to bring in our panel, legal analyst Sunny Hostin, also Jeffrey Toobin, both obviously former federal prosecutors. Sunny used to live and work here and his friends with Mary Rawlings-Blake, also Former NYPD Detective Harry Houck and Forensic Scientist Lawrence Kobilinsky of the John Jay College of Criminal Justice.
Sunny you and I we're talking about this during Randi case (ph). I mean that report that was in The Washington Post that the other person who was under arrest inside the van that was being transported said that Mr. Gray was intentionally banging his head with the intention of injuring himself, there's no way, even if something was banging, there's no way that another person under arrest would know what the intention of somebody else is.
SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: That's right. And I find it very unreliable. One, because there was this sort of metal sheet partition between the two so he couldn't see anything, he's solely going by what he could hear. And, you're right, you really can't determine what someone's intentions is. And he's also in police custody when he provides this statement.
And so, as a prosecutor, as former prosecutor, that is information that in mind that is unreliable. But one I think that bears mentioning Anderson, this is why I think it's troubling when a prosecutor's office investigates its own, investigates the police. I think it's troubling when police officers investigate their own. We're hearing so many different accounts from so many different sources. And I think it begs the question, why isn't there an independent investigator in a case like this.
COPPER: Well also Jeff Toobin, and we stressed this in the last hour, again, there's so much that's not known that -- and often as we've seen in past cases the things that -- people thing they know early on often turned out to be red hearings or just not true.
So at this stage, you know, while people are forming (ph) opinions it's, you know, the facts on the ground are very few.
JEFF TOOBIN, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTORS: Well just to take one example, that incident that you and Sunny are just talking about. The version of the facts apparently provided by the other prisoner in the van, you can't make a rational evaluation of this prisoner's story until you know exactly what kind of injuries Freddie Gray had. And we don't know the nature of those injuries. That's why the autopsy report is going to be so important.
Now, all of the information can't be analyzed in isolation, it has to be all looked at together and to see what fits together and what doesn't. And the version of the facts from this other prisoner is obviously very important, but the only way to evaluate it is to see if it's consistent with the medical forensic and other witness testimony in the case.
COPPER: And Professor Kobilinsky, the report of WJLA mentioning a broken neck, it also mentions a head injury that apparently has something to do with the bolt in the van. Head and neck injuries, they're not necessarily connected, right?
LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC INVESTIGATOR: No, no, of course not. It's just the -- an indicator that if in fact he was thrown in and his head hit the bolt, maybe you could explain the neck injury. It's not directly connected. Let me also piggyback off of something that Jeff Toobin just said.
[21:25:01] There are other things that we don't know. We don't know -- we don't have the cops (ph) report so we don't know whether there we're drugs or alcohol involved. If they we're, that might explain the neck musculature and might have predisposed him if you we're under the influence of these substances through a neck injury.
We also have not heard anything about the neuropathology report which is absolutely going to be part of the autopsy report. There's a lot that we still don't know and I think the best advice is let's get hat autopsy report, the complete report and then let's see what it says and what it doesn't say.
COPPER: We should also point out that the family -- I talked to the family attorney, they are also going to be conducting their own autopsy though he wouldn't say what -- where that process was. Harry Houck, in terms of the wagons that are actually used in Baltimore, I understand that they're different than the ones that are used in a place like New York City, that they actually don't allow -- there's not much room for police officers to even maneuver inside vehicle, is that correct?
Harry Houck: Right Anderson, we use the van -- just regular vans here in New York. I don't like these vans I'm seeing in Baltimore, they're really hard to be able to get in there and to put the prisoner, sit the prisoner down, them clipped in there, all right? Because you're really vulnerable, you can only like fit like one officer in there in there so, you know, while you're trying to seatbelt the prisoner he could headbutt you, he could bite you, he can kick, and it's really hard to move around.
So, what we had in New York, just regular vans, we put in the van, buckle them in, somebody would hold them from behind so he couldn't get headbutted, all right? Or couldn't get spit on and we'll just buckle them in.
I don't see police departments actually going to use these or actually but these anymore because, you're seeing -- there's a lot problem with these.
COPPER: Right. Jeff, the fact that Freddie Gray was not bucked in which is police policy although the person I talked to who was affiliated with one of the six officers who said that it was common for people not to be buckled in because police didn't want to get too close to them. Even if criminal charges do not end up being brought, could civil charges -- could a civil suit be brought for the fact a policy wasn't followed and that may have lead to his injury and/or death?
TOOBIN: Right. The standard would be something like negligence, would be violation of -- or rules of ordinary care and one way to establish the rules of ordinary care are, what are the regulations, what are the Baltimore rules for police officers for how to transport prisoners. Now it maybe that those rules we're often not followed, but in fact they we're not followed when it comes to Freddie Gray, that could be evidence that would be used in a civil case for money damages against the City of Baltimore.
By the way the City of Baltimore has paid a lot of money in recent years because of civil law suits against the police department. So that's not -- this isn't exactly a farfetched possibility. But, violation of the rules for how to transport people, I think that would be a hard basis for a criminal case. That's a very different, much higher standard but civil case certainly, this would -- that would important evidence.
COPPER: Yeah. Everyone, thank you as always. We're going to take another short break.
Coming up next, as the curfew here approaches, we're going to talk to Baltimore City Councilman Nick Mosby in addition to his interest as an elected official in the investigation, he's also has family ties, his wife Marilyn is the state's attorney who now has the case.
COOPER: For the night three, the curfew about to begin about 28 minutes away. Protesters still out on the streets a lot of people still out in the streets both here in Philadelphia in Cincinnati here in Baltimore. I want to check it again with our Brian Todd.
Brian, the last time we talk to you there are a lot of people basically have a kind of discussions, impromptu discussions they kind we've seen a lot the last several days is that still going on?
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It is, Anderson. A very captivating scene here just a moment ago, there's a lot of protesters blocking the intersection Pennsylvania and North Avenue. And the police were mingling among them. A little bit frustrated trying to find protest leaders to come and took them away from the intersections, to not block traffic.
Well finally, Congressman Elijah Cummings came in here along with State Senator Catherine Pugh and we're trying to get people to move away with the bullhorn telling them that the States Attorney Marilyn Mosby has the case and has looking at it.
REP. ELIJAH CUMMINGS, (D) BALTIMORE: Yeah.
TODD: The dynamic out here, are you satisfied with, you know, what you've been able to accomplish. So first, trying to get people out of the intersection now they haven't all moved out just yet.
CUMMINGS: Well, I just I got here.
TOOD: And you are talking...
CUMMINGS: No, no, no, no. I was just explaining to them that the case is now in the hands of our states attorney who is a very dynamic lawyer, 35 years old and she's a brilliant woman and has tremendous integrity. And what I was explaining to them is that, if she is not satisfied with what the police department has given her, she can seek -- she can get any kind of information she want, bring in new experts, do whatever she has to do to go with her case.
I believe in her and I believe that she -- and all I wanted to do is one thing, search for the truth. Search the whole truth and nothing but the truth and I know she will.
TODD: And one young men, you know, he was just talking to you. He's talking about how prosperous you are, you are their only voice.
TODD: What do you think of that? These people here are incredibly frustrated?
CUMMINGS: Yeah. Well, you know, we live in United States of America as a democracy. And I'm not be a lawyer, I'm very familiar if there are certain steps that we have to go through and all I can do is probably explain to them as best that I can and put it in the lay language what the process is. But the process we must allow the process to go forward.
[21:34:59] And all I can assure them and Senator Pugh and others is that we will stick with this base until the end. But the fact is that, now we have a states attorney who we are very impressed with and very proud of we trust her we believe in here and I know that she will -- and I just to get a facts right, she will apply the law and come to her own conclusions that's her job, OK?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
CUMMINGS: That's her job and I believe in her.
TODD: Thanks for talking to us, congressmen. We appreciate it. Thank you very much.
CUMMINGS: All right.
TODD: Senator thank you very much for being pout here. Thank you.
Local leaders really taking control of the situation, exerting their leadership, Anderson, moving into the middle of this intersection with both arms and other things kind of appeal to the crowd, they haven't succeeded in getting everyone out but they have got a lot of people moved over. And just the presence of Congressman Cummings and State Senator Catherine Pugh has made a huge different system in the past few minutes, Anderson.
COOPER: We have seen Congressman Cummings out there many nights with that bullhorn talking to people and he express his faith. And Marilyn Mosby and you just heard him say that.
Joining me now is someone who shares that sense with of course Mrs. Mosby's husband who plays a crucial role as well here in Baltimore. He's a member of the city council.
Councilman Mosby, thank you very much for being with us.
NICK MOSBY, COUNCILMAN 7TH DISTRICT BALTIMORE: Thanks for having me on.
COOPER: How concerned are you about what you've heard of the last 24 hours is kind of drift, drift of information. First, the police coming out today saying, "Oh there was actually other stop at the wagon that Mr. Gray was in and now also other of course WJLA about a possible head injury...
COOPER: ... that he was receive inside a van.
MOSBY: Specifically regarding the action is stop is really concerning I mean I think the reports also said that was from a private citizens camera that's why the police didn't really know about it, initially. So it's a lot of concern, you know.
At the end of the day, folks already unfortunately had this trust and a criminal justice system especially when you go to urban areas although out America and we look at this particular case they want to know why was he a suspect, why was he chase down, why was he detained and ultimately, why he was arrested and what he was charged for.
And unfortunately, Baltimore City Police Department couldn't come out with that information right away and I think that drew skepticism and just exacerbated the distrust and was really the catalyst for the initial movements and protest.
COOPER: And as we said I mean people leak information for usually very specific reasons.
COOPER: Personal reasons, political reasons, whatever maybe a legal reasons. Look, the kind of information that we've heard coming out there's a numbered people that we've heard from tonight out on the streets who say, it all seems like it's kind of appease that's it all setting up in narrative that Freddie Gray injured himself inside this vehicle and that many of the people we've talked to that simply reject and it just, as you said, it out so this suspicion.
MOSBY: Yeah. I mean folks are concern. I mean, you know, just looking at it form a logical perspective, it seems very interesting. You know, I think that's why it's critically important that they have been three independent investigations going on since it's really rude out and try to find out what's really happened to Freddie Gray.
COOPER: I got to ask you about your wife. She's now at the epicenter of all of this, the investigation. The police report has been handed over to her.
COOPER: You probably haven't seen much of her lately because she's been working probably around the clock as have you.
Congressman Cummings expressing great, great faith in her the pressure on her is got to be just intense what is she like as an attorney?
MOSBY: Yeah. She's was born for this moment. Extremely great extremely competent and she's built for pressure, you know. She has been working around the clock and, you know, haven't even really talk to her today. I haven't seen her today.
But I know that, you know, she's working around the clock to really dig out the facts. I think that, you know, we're in church the other day and a pastor was talking about right person, right place, right time, not deaf, not talking to Marilyn but just speaking in general, and it's truly right.
I mean, you talk about this movement. Its interest in the city young guys that have adopted and taken on this movement, you know, some of the guys that have been on the corners and some of the guys that have been (inaudible) had the right opportunities in the path are really speaking out and really joining this movement. I think this is a culmination of a lot of things but a real pivotal time and now American issue.
COOPER: Yeah. Councilman, I appreciate you taking the time to and talk to us. Thank you very much.
MOSBY: Thanks, Anderson.
COOPER: I appreciate it.
Up next the mayor of Philadelphia is going to join us with protesters still out enforce on the streets there tonight, details ahead.
COOPER: Taking a look at live pictures now from Philadelphia. We have been following developments in here in Baltimore as the curfew approaches, but we're also been looking, closely adverse going on to Philadelphia when the large of demonstration we've seen. Tonight is just a bit north here in Philadelphia.
Joining us now, the phone is Philadelphia Mayor Michael Nutter.
Mayor Nutter, thank you very much for being with us. What do you make of what you've been seeing on the streets of Philadelphia tonight?
MAYOR MICHAEL NUTTER, PHILADELPHIA: Well, I think first and foremost, what's most important is that we've had hundreds of people assembled first to city hall for rally, and then the demonstrators just start to do march, first in a couple of different directions. All of which has been peaceful, all of which has been in answered (ph) with -- buildup with police department.
Like patrol officers, several affairs officers and others who march along for protection purposes and guidance with the demonstrators and there really have been any major issues as they have -- they need to express their first amendment right and have marched throughout different parts of the city.
People want answers. They want justice. I understand that. And, you know, answers should be provided in whether it's in the Freddie Gray case, in this particular incident as different pieces of information are coming out which I think, would create a little bit of confusion but in the folks in Baltimore and the prosecutor and those folks would deal with that.
But on the ground here in Philadelphia, demonstrators are doing what they're doing and as we've had occupy a number of years ago, as we've had demonstrations coming out of the situation in Ferguson or in Staten Island, our focus is always on making sure that demonstrators are able to exercise their first amendment right that things are peaceful and that people are safe in the course of their demonstrations.
COOPER: Well, Mayor Nutter, I -- it's a challenging situation. I appreciate you talking to us. Thank you very much.
COOPER: ... Reverend Harold Carter Jr. is the Pastor of the New Shiloh Baptist Church where Freddie Gray's funeral was held. He's been calling for peace. He's been trying to broker it (ph) even meeting with the rival gang members. He joins me along with Community Activist Melech Thomas. Melech, let me start off with you.
[21:45:00] I'm wondering what do you feel you've been seeing on the streets for the last 24 hours. How do you think things are going?
MELECH THOMAS, COMMUNITY ACTIVIST: First, thank you for having me. I think, I've seen a lot more peace than what I've actually seen on the television. Thanks to, surprisingly, the street organizations, the Bloods, the Crips and the Black Guerrilla Family have done a lot to maintain the peace, maintain the order breaking up fights and stopping some of the extra looting that may have been going on.
And so, I've seen a lot of peace but I've also seeing a lot of incitement by some of the officers and some of the National Guards that we have seen now in Baltimore City.
COOPER: You've got to be please with the response from members of the community. I mean, you're talking about gangs there. We'd also seeing church groups and pastors and just men in the community even, you know, moms in the community coming out.
When we saw a mom with her 14-year-old daughter the other night, standing arm in arm with their backs to police, basically, the police saying themselves, that's got to -- as somebody who works in the community. That's got to be good to see this kind of outpouring of involvement.
THOMAS: Well, it's wonderful and it's beautiful, then in spite of what some of the people outside of the city my think they know about the city from the wire, from the news reports. Baltimore people were -- in spite of all the things that we've had to go through, we will pull together when the time comes together.
And so, we're thankful for the members of the clergy like Dr. Carter, Dr. Reid, Jamal Bryant who have pulled the community together for us to have one Baltimore.
COOPER: Pastor, as drifts of information now are starting to come out, leaks are starting to come out, a lot of people have -- makes people more suspicious about the process, concern about the process, what's your message tonight to people? Because there's a lot of people out on the streets tonight and, again, a big question about may happen tomorrow.
REVEREND HAROLD CARTER JR, NEW SHILOH BAPTIST CHURCH: Anderson, I really wish -- it's a great extent that the report had remained confidential. The little small tidbits that we've been getting, I think are doing more harm.
COOPER: All Right.
CARTER: Raise so much to ask, the grand questions without any answers. And I think that is something that should have remained behind close doors and sealed. The completed process has come to do course.
Patience is the operative word here.
COOPER: I've talked to a lot of people who Pastor Bryan for instance who's been and the council members who've been in schools the last couple of days trying to tamped down expectations about what may happen tomorrow.
Some people believing there's going to be, you know, an indictment or charges brought but tomorrow is if I going to pass and we're not going to know how much more tomorrow night than we know tonight.
THOMAS: Well, I think the media maybe a little bit more concern about tomorrow. My -- I was in schools this morning, I was at Patterson Park Public Charter School talking to sixth graders about building and being leaders for the future and how they can develop their own character and their own compassion.
So in spite of what he narrative outside of the city may be that they can be the change that they wish to see.
COOPER: Do you get when you -- I mean, when you do that, do you get optimism? What do you hear from the sixth graders?
THOMAS: Today, I thought on leading through a social crisis. And I had the young people in that classroom screamed "I am a leader." And to see them, some of these sisters, young sisters and brothers who may not even have meals on their table when they get home for them to scream out that and have a smile of their face. I could sleep a little bit easier at night knowing that in the future, some of these young brothers and sisters who are ridiculed and despised by the media and by police that they will be the future of our community.
COOPER: Pastor, are you optimistic that beyond justice in the case of Freddie Gray, however, when defines that, are you confident that Baltimore will get better? I mean, we've seen the vast of Baltimore, we've seen some negative stuff as well. But we've seen a lot of really good positive stuff coming out. People standing up, taking care of their communities, taking care of each other.
CARTER: Absolutely. Nicknamed as Charm City and there's a great amount of charm to this city that continues to draw people all over the world to (inaudible) neighborhoods to our churches.
Obviously, I'm an optimist. I'm a pastor. I'm a man of faith. Person of faith and to that end, it has to get better. These (inaudible) prayer, I celebrate the power of prayer, had a prayer vigil this evening. One of our local churches, several thousand persons were there. We're going to do a 6:00 A.M. prayer service in the morning at our church. We believe in the power of God.
COOPER: Well, Pastor Carter...
CARTER: As always, Anderson. Thank you.
COOPER: Well, Thomas, thank you so much.
THOMAS: Thank you so much. COOPER: Pleasure to have you both on. We're going to check in on what's going on the streets as the curfew of approaches. We are back.
COOPER: Less than 10 minutes until night three of the curfew takes effect. Protesters and people of Baltimore have been adjusting a lot of new today they are out of the streets tonight. Let's listen to them.
COOPER: Chris where are -- I want to bring our Chris Cuomo who's with those protesters tonight. Chris, explain where are you are and what's been going on?
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: All right. Well, this is a beautiful demonstration of the community coming together. You see Elijah Cummings and Senator Pugh. They once again took to the bullhorn went around all the groups of young people who are certainly more angry and rebellious tonight than we've seen in previous nights and we're now walking out of that intersection by the CVS and down the street out of that area where the police are.
And literally it's a demonstration of the community coming together at its best. People are certainly angry and there's a lot of reason for that more offered today. And now they're walking together Elijah Cummings and Senator Pugh said, let's remember what brings us together as people a whole for a better day than today.
[21:50:00] And it's not just that they are together singing. Behind them is basically everybody who is in that intersection, Anderson. And now they're all together and they're all walking towards hopefully a situation of none confrontation tonight.
COOPER: So, are they walking now away to honor the curfew or they walking through where the police in relation to this and try to come to the big picture?
CUOMO: You know, and some of mode of a mutual sign of respect, Anderson. The police stayed where they were.
And now, I don't know where Elijah is taking them.
But he's walking down the street away from that intersection and we're walking down towards Sanford Place which is one of the side streets off here. We're not far from where Freddie Gray got taken into custody and ultimately, the beginning of how he lost his life on Pennsylvania Avenue as we're walking down right now.
I'll ask them where we're going.
Where are we headed, Elijah?
COOPER: Yeah. Go ahead.
CUOMO: All right. They say -- yeah, what do you want me to tell them, Anderson?
COOPER: No. I'm just saying do you know about how many people are in that group?
CUOMO: I say, there's about 300 or so, 250, 300. The helicopter above right now is reminding people its curfew.
Senator Pugh just said they're going to get through a safe distance away from the police and then, they're going to ask people to disperse. And we'll see what happen then, but we have not seen a more organized move around curfew than the one orchestrated right now.
COOPER: I want to continue looking at...
CUOMO: They're stopping now and...
COOPER: ... this image. I want to continue looking at the images that Chris Cuomo was seeing on the right hand side of your screen. On the left hand side of your screen, that's the scene in Philadelphia, a large group of people who have been demonstrating now for several hours. Some leaving, others joining, curfew is three minutes away here in the city of Baltimore.
Now, on the left hand side of your screen, we talked to the Mayor of the Philadelphia short time ago. They are on the left hand side of your screen. That's the scene as large group or the demonstrator moves through the streets.
We now have the situation in Baltimore here with the curfew rapidly approaching with three minutes left to go. Let's listen in if we can to what they're telling the crowds in Baltimore.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Brother's break down, let's get home. OK now?
COOPER: Jeffrey Toobin, Harry Houck, forensic scientist Lawrence Kobilinsky as we watch these two cities, not too far apart and to show of unity in the city of Philadelphia or the city of Baltimore and for the protest here in Baltimore.
Sunny, there's been a lot of talk all week long about expectations for Friday. A lot of community leaders have been working to try to lower those expectations. The police releasing some new information today about a second stop that the van made, making it a total four stops that the van that Mr. Gray was in, stopping.
Perhaps that put some of the pressure off of tomorrow. It also raises other questions and raises some distress about the process.
HOSTIN: I think that's right but I really do think the community leaders have done a terrific job in terms of managing expectations. We dig up the statement from the state's attorney's office. Today, the Baltimore State's Attorney's Office making it very clear that answers would not be forthcoming tomorrow. Although my understanding is that the medical examiners report may be coming tomorrow which could possibly be some would incendiary to people that are found...
COOPER: Do you know -- do we know that would actually be release publicly?
HOSTIN: Yes. Yes. My understanding is that could be release publicly. And that may be a problem for some people. But I do think that management of expectations has been very, very good.
COOPER: And Professor Kobilinsky , a lot to be learned from the (inaudible) autopsy report. Without that there's really so many questions that -- no one can answer.
KOBILINSKY: I think that's absolutely correct that I think a careful examination of the cervical spines and to see exactly where the break took place in the each of his spines can give us some insight as to what kind of trauma actually caused the break, the severance of the spinal cord.
COOPER: We have about 30 seconds left before curfew starts to take effect. And I'm going to hand things over to our Don Lemon. But again, this is a scene you're watching, city of Baltimore on the right much very small group now of protesters.
People have been out on the streets. You saw there Congressman Elijah Cummings leading a large group away from police. On the left, the city of Philadelphia, the city of brotherly love show of solidarity and much larger crowd as we've been watching over the last several hours.
I do want to hand over our continuing coverage live from Baltimore to our Don Lemon standing by. Don.