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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Anderson Cooper 360 Special Report: Police Under Fire. Aired 9- 10p ET
Aired May 4, 2015 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, AC360 HOST: Good evening and welcome to 360 SPECIAL REPORT: POLICE UNDER FIRE. Six Baltimore Police Officers have been charged in the death of Freddie Gray as you know -- who's a 25-year- old African-American man who died after being put into police custody.
Now he committed no crime but he was arrested after running from police and somehow received injuries that killed him. The neighborhoods in Baltimore, in Fergusson, New York, South Carolina; people are angry and they're sad, and looking for answers to questions that have been asked in this country for decades. Is there equal justice for African-Americans?
Does something need to change in how police do their jobs and can police who bravely serve and do their jobs effectively continue to do so under a constant cloud of suspicion and mistrust?
Over the next we're going to speak with a mom who's lost a son, a daughter who lost a father. We're going to speak with current and former police officers and parents and community leaders who are trying to protect their kids and affect change.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
An unarmed man on the ground being beaten by police, captured on video.
Causing protests and riots in the streets of Los Angeles, the man is Rodney King.
RODNEY KING, POLICE BRUTALITY VICTIM: Can we all get along?
COOPER: That was 24 years ago.
Anger and mistrust towards law enforcement it seems has only grown worse since then. Cellphones, dash cams, surveillance videos, now evidence after let's say, a long history of excessive force by police interacting with black men.
Fergusson, Missouri erupted after Michael Brown was shoot and killed by a white officer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don't shoot, don't shoot.
COOPER: The grand jury decided against indicting the officer who shot Brown, and a little more than a week later another grand jury in Staten Island also declined charges against the officer whose actions seen here lead to the death of Eric Gartner.
ERIC GARTNER, POLICE BRUTALITY VICTIM: I can't breathe. I can't breathe.
COOPER: These two back to back grand jury decisions lead to nationwide protest not only for Michael Brown and Eric Gartner but also for others like Walter Scott and Tamir Rice. All killed by police.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People are tired of being pushed. If you push people in corner, (inaudible) push him in a corner -- fight back, that's what this is all there is, people fighting back.
COOPER: The demonstrations turned violent in some cities, with looting and rioting. The most recent protest in Baltimore after Freddie Gray died in police custody.
This time charges will be brought against the six officers involved in his arrest. But even that isn't enough to stop the anger and frustration that's been building for decades.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
It is I think important to point out first in -- when we begin this discussion that police officers risk their lives every single day to do a job that's incredibly dangerous. Just over the weekend a New York City Police Officer Brian Moore was shoot in the head after a man allegedly open fired on him and another police officer in their unmarked car. We learned today that Officer Moore has died. He was just 25-years-old.
In 2013, the last year FBI statistics we're available, 27 law enforcement officers we're killed in the line of duty and 49,851 we're assaulted. The data on how many people police officers killed, that is harder to come by, it's not the total picture but the FBI does keep records on justifiable homicides by police officers. Since 2009, that number was in the high 300s and low 400s every year, and increased to 461 in 2013.
Now our discussion today is not about bashing police though some may see it as just that. The discussion is about policing and what needs to change and how. Joining us is Former NYPD Captain and current Brooklyn Borough President Eric Adams, retired NYPD Detective Harry Houck. Also joining us is Sybrina Fulton the mother of Trayvon Martin and founder of the Trayvon Martin Foundation.
Trayvon Martin of course was shot and killed in 2012 at the age of 17 by George Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch volunteer. Mr. Zimmerman was acquitted in the case. Also with us is CNN Legal Analyst and former Federal Prosecutor Sunny Hostin, she used to live in Baltimore as we point out, she's friends with the mayor in case we do talk about Baltimore.
Mr. Adams let me start out with you. You and I have talked about this before. You served on the police force here in New York. You're not borough president in that -- in Brooklyn. A lot of people I talked to in Baltimore said this isn't necessarily a problem of black and white, this is a problem of blue and how blue, blue line (ph) interacts in communities of color.
I'm wondering what your perception, what needs to change if anything?
ERIC ADAMS, FORMER NYPD CAPTAIN: And I agree and I recall when Trayvon was killed -- my colleagues and I we wore hoods on the city floor to symbolize that America needs to take a real look at how we are using this gun culture, number one. But number two, how our police officers are policing our communities. And I think you're right for starting in the beginning of the program, this is not anti- public safety.
[21:05:01] I want to live in a safe environment. I want to raise my son in a safe environment. But clearly across American, we have had two methodologies of policing and using the tools of policing. In some communities, when a police officer leaves a precinct or his station house, he brings a tool box, box of (inaudible) correcting conditions.
And one community use only the hammer, in another community they use all the tools, conflict resolution, making sure that you're safe, that your apartment is safe and the citizens are safe. That is the real problem at the heart of what's taking place in police...
COOPER: Essentially you're saying that police, police differently in an inner city community than they do in a predominantly white or, you know, well-off community?
ADAMS: Yes, and because the big problem was, our training for the most part, we like to say in policing that we don't see color, we don't see race, we don't see gender. And that is not honest and that's not true. You can't continue to have this intoxicated training method and you're waking up drunk and say you don't have drinking problem. We are intoxicated with ineffective policing in America.
Recognize your frailties, recognize that -- you come to a police department, you came from a society with race and gender place a role in what we do. Now let's train our police officers to leave that baggage behind and how to police effectively not based on a baggage you come into a police department with.
COOPER: Harry, does training need change?
HARRY HOUCK, RETIRED NYPRD DETECTIVE: Well training definitely needs to change and -- so what Eric said, I was never trained to act different in a high-crime neighborhood or a low-crime neighborhood, all right? I believe that policing is effectively everywhere but in high-crime areas, all right? You have to be a little bit more aggressive because that's where police officers gets shoot and killed so police officers need to protect themselves. And, that's one of the main reasons, we just saw a police officer killed yesterday...
COOPER: But is that really true because -- I mean in the community I grew up in, I remember a Policeman Paul (ph) over the top of my corner, I knew him, I talked to him I assumed, I always -- it was implicit that he was there for my protection.
In Baltimore every person I talked to in the neighborhood where violence took place none -- that's a laughable notion that the policer officer is there for, you know, they don't know Policeman Paul (ph) or if they do they don't have a great impression of him.
HOUCK: And that's why I've been great proponent of having a DCOP come by. I used to be a DCOP in Edison (ph), New Jersey back in 1978 became NYPD. I spent two years walking black beak (ph) where an officer was actually assassinated two years early, all right?
I look back at that, riding (ph) older on the block, I got to know everybody. I virtually solved every crime in my beak (ph). And when people called 911 they would call for Officer Harry, right now we've got police officers who's just driving at your neighborhood, you know, when something bad happens, making arrest and getting out. And that's a problem.
COOPER: Eric, is it just a matter though of training, because I remember, you saying in the past, stuffs you learn in the academy, when you got out in the street you had veteran officers taking you inside and say, "Forget what you learn in the academy I'm going to show you hot to be a real police."
ADAMS: We cannot expect police officers to sterilize clean environment of a police academy differ from the dirty reality of the streets. How we police now, we police communities based on a numerical minority that commit crimes. When you look at all of these communities at high-crime, yes they have social issues and economic issues, but the overwhelming number of people, 99 percent of them get up daily, may not to Wall Streets jobs but they go to basic jobs.
But when we into community, we look encounter that we had with that drug dealer, the encounter we had with a person who shoot a cop. Now we police an entire community -- that way, one of the best examples, one of my rookie cops when I was a lieutenant (inaudible) public house and development and there was urine in the elevator. And he said, look these -- all these people are disgusting.
I said no, one person pissed in the elevator, everybody in this building is upset about that. Let's stop treating everyone in the building based on the behavior of the 1 percent in the community. That is how we police.
SUNNY HOSTIN, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: And I agree, I mean I think the bottom line is we are overly aggressively policing communities of color. When I was prosecutor for the justice department in D.C. we had community prosecution. So I was responsible for the 6th District, I knew everyone in the neighborhood. When there was a crime committed they would come directly to me. That is how you build confidence but that can't be the only answer, it has to training. I believe it also has to include body cameras because that will lead to transparency and accountability...
COOPER: I wanted to...
HOSTIN: There are lots of answers...
COOPER: ... a little bit later on. Sybrina, you went down to meet with Freddie Gray's family, and just be with them in their time of grief. I know you believe what happened in Baltimore, we're going to see more of Baltimore, we're going to see -- this is not something that just because, you know, people stopped -- a few people we're committing acts of violence and stopped committing acts of violence and protest are peaceful, do you think we're going to see -- continue to see more cases?
[21:10:00] SYBRINA FULTON, MOTHER OF TRAYVON MARTIN: I absolutely do, I think that people are just frustrated. They're upset that it continues to happen and nobody is held accountable. And they want their voices heard. So I think that we're going to see more of Baltimore, we're going to see more of protest in New York, in Florida, in California...
COOPER: You don't believe it's taken seriously enough when a police officer shoots somebody?
FULTON: I think we have gotten to a place that we are so nonchalant with a death. I think it's just as if, you know, you know is not taken as seriously. When there's a loss of life, I believe that it should be a thorough investigation. If somebody should be held accountable I don't think we should just move on to the next case. And that's what continues to happen, we just move on to the next case.
And I think these cases are important, and I think with everything that's happening we're getting a step closer to equal justice.
COOPER: I want to bring in Pastor Jamal Bryant who we meet in Baltimore, he's the pastor of the Empowerment Temple Church, he's also President of the Empowerment Movement. Pastor what do you believe needs to change?
JAMAL BRYANT, PASTOR, EMPOWER TEMPLE CHURCH: Alcoholics Anonymous say the first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem. And I think the first thing that the criminal justice system has to do is admit that there was a problem. When you look this case with Freddie Gray, he is arrested and put into handcuffs and to the vehicle with no charge.
And so the question that's still looming is, you're taking him to the precinct to do what, if you're not going to charge him with anything? So the community has a disconnect because we knew growing up police we're cops, citizens on patrol as the officer (inaudible) that you know him, this is somebody from the community.
Over 47 percent of the officers in Baltimore don't live in Baltimore. So it's not Officer Paul (ph) it's Officer Stranger. And so, there's got to be some kind of reconnect between the police department and the community.
COOPER: I want to thank our pan over. Ahead, we're going to dig deeper into what happens when police kill someone, and whether prosecutors and juries usually give police the benefit of the doubt.
COOPER: Welcome back. The fact that six police officers have been criminally charged in the death of Freddie Gray in Baltimore is remarkable because of just how rare it is for police officers to face charges when suspects die. Convictions are even rarer.
Take a look, in South Carolina where Walter Scott was shoot in the back, killed by an officer, police have fired their weapons at 209 suspects in the past five years, and only three officers have been accused of misuse of force and not one has actually been convicted. That's according to an analysis by state newspaper.
And these numbers are hard to come by because there's no national comprehensive database that documents how many times officers shoot or kill someone. Recently The Washington Post and researchers at Bowling Green State University analyzed police shootings nationwide. They found that since 2005 only 54 officers have faced criminal charges after fatally shooting someone in the line of duty. That's out of thousands of fatal shootings by police during that period.
And when officers we're actually charged, 80 percent of those cases involve special circumstances like the victim was shot in the back or there was a video recording of the incident, now of those 54 charged just 11 officers have been convicted.
Our legal experts will tell you that the bar to indict a police officer is extremely high and the police are often given the benefit of the doubt. Joining me again CNN Legal Analyst Sunny Hostin, also with us Legal Analyst Mark Geragos, Criminal Defense Attorney, also Former NYPD Officer and a former Secret Service Agent Dan Bongino, and CNN Legal Analyst Jeffrey Toobin.
COOPER: Mark, do you believe that juries give the benefit of the doubt and prosectors give the benefit of the doubt to police?
MARK GERAGOS, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely, it's without question. Police officers truly get a presumption of innocence whereas most criminal defendants don't come in with any presumption of innocence, sort of an upstream (ph). And usually in a police prosecution and they're few and far between, if juries are given -- or if they ever make to a jury, because usually a judge will toss the case of a preliminary hearing or a grand jury will refuse to indict so you never even get to trial.
And jurors just do not come in with any belief whatsoever that officers commit a crime, they just don't. COOPER: Dan do you agree with him?
DAN BONGINO, FORMER NYPD OFFICER: No, I don't agree at all. I -- we have to take into account the fact that -- you're talking about police officers who understand that a police shooting is -- could be the end of their career like that. This isn't something -- this isn't like Wild Bill Hickok where people go into these scenes looking to engage in a shootout.
I was in law enforcement 16 plus years on a federal and local side. And I can tell you, everyone I know that had been involved in a shooting was the worst thing in their life, continue to be the worst day of their life, most of them we're civilly sued, their lives we're ruined, they had nightmares about it. I have one who told me straight to my face, he said, "You know what? I took away everything that guy was ever going to have and I'll never forget that."
So acting like somehow that this is an anomalous statistic, that very few people are convicted, given that so few even want to be involved in these situations and when they do they avoid it, I don't find it -- I don't see anything anomalous in that at all. And I'm not saying...
GERAGOS: Did you take a look at those numbers? Those numbers are pretty daunting.
GERAGOS: I defy you to take those numbers and apply them to anybody else, or any other recognizable group, if it's police officers who are shooting people and the only time -- look what happened in this -- the last case. There's police reports that we're written, if there was video that officer never would have been charged.
COOPER: In the Walter Scott case.
BONGINO: They never would have been charged -- you don't know that.
GERAGOS: I know that based on 35 years of being a criminal justice system...
BONGINO: You can only speculate. I know he was charged. You're proving to prove a counterfactual.
GERAGOS: Do you remember what the police report said? Do you remember how they covered for each other? Did you see how they covering evidence? Did you see how they said -- they wrote the same script which is he was reaching, I was in fear for my life, there was a struggle, it's a script.
HOSTIN: You know, I rarely agree with Mark Geragos...
GERAGOS: That's true.
HOSTIN: ... most people know. But he's right about...
COOPER: You guys have made a career... (CROSSTALK)
HOSTIN: He's right about this. I think that it is very difficult to indict a police officer. I think that prosecutors who work with police officers day in and day out are low (ph) to indict their friends when we know that it's very easy to indict a crime, Jeff you know that.
[21:20:00] And I think that the only answer to it is to make sure that prosecutors are not prosecuting their own.
That you have an independent prosecutor and quite frankly that you have an independent investigation and we need accountability for officers that do discharge their weapon...
GERAGOS: Wait a minute do you think there should be an independent investigation in Baltimore...
COOPER: That was exactly my question. You support the state's attorney...
COOPER: ... on her bringing charges in Baltimore.
HOSTIN: Well, you know, I think that the only reason that I'm more supportive of this state's attorney in Baltimore is because she said that she had independent investigator...
COOPER: By the way her husband is a politician in the district -- represents the district where this occurred...
HOSTIN: And to be sure I think those criticism of her are fair.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, FMR. FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: I don't think you can separate the fact that we live in an age of video and, you know, handheld video, very easy to take video and that's the reason why a lot of these cases have come -- have come to the floor because there are videos. I mean Mark is right, that there -- it's very unlikely these cases would have been brought without video. But even with video, and even without a gunshot.
I mean remember Eric Garner in Staten Island, there was video and there was no gun shot there and there was still...
GERAGOS: And you know why in Eric Garner's case? Because you had a white prosecutor who knew how to stack the deck and go to a grand jury and not put him in front of a judge and not file that case. That was rigged from the get go. That is -- I mean it's a rigged system...
HOSTIN: They didn't go too far (ph).
HOSTIN: They didn't go too far.
TOOBIN: I think that...
COOPER: There's a lot people who believe their system is broke (ph).
TOOBIN: Prosecutors operate in good faith but they also recognize the world in which they live, in which jurors are sympathetic to police because most police are good people, doing the right thing, trying to enforce the law as best they can. And the aberrational cases are aberrational.
COOPER: Mark, you know, a lot of police officers when they hear you talking about this, you know, will scuff and say, you know, you'll be the first guy to call the police when you get in trouble, when you need somebody to show up at your house you'd be the, you know, that's who you would call and yet it's very easy to criticize...
GERAGOS: I live in a community where the police are not at odds with the inhabitants of that community. I -- that's why I'm there that's why I raise my family there, I get that I'm privileged, I don't deny that for a second. I also every single day in a court house or most days, in a court house where all we do is process people of color for stupid drug crimes repeatedly.
And I hear the same stories from the same clients, repeatedly that could not have been as -- unless there's something in the eater (ph), unless they're all drinking the same Kool-Aid they could not separately come up with the same story about what police do time and time again.
COOPER: Do you believe there's a script that they're reading?
GERAGOS: It's clearly there's a script, they go to a police university 101, they tell them, when you discharge a weapon you got to say I'm, you know, that I was in fear for my life, he reached for my gun, blah, blah, blah it's on every single police report.
HOSTIN: You go too far.
COOPER: Dan your shake -- Dan your shaking head.
BONGINO: I just don't understand, what is everybody clapping about?
TOOBIN: Because you don't understand.
BONGINO: No, no, listen, I get that. No one here on the stage, no one that has been on this stage nor I are making the case that police brutality and excessive use of force cases is not a very real phenomenon, no one, that the system in rigged you had a gun...
GERAGOS: I'm going to tell you why is real...
COOPER: Let him finish.
BONGINO: You have a guy in Tulsa shoots a guy, I think he's going for station, he's now under criminal charges. You have six cops in Baltimore being in charge for depraved-heart murder, you have another guy in South Carolina. You may he wouldn't have been charged in facts he was...
HOSTIN: But they are in a minority...
BONGINO: Wait Sunny.
HOSTIN: They're in a minority.
We're talking about decades and decades of police brutality.
COOPER: Let Dan respond.
BONGINO: Maybe they are in a minority because you're presuming that the overwhelming majority of cops are bad and not really good-hearted decent cops doing the right thing.
TOOBIN: This dispute you two are having is in the absence of facts. And you we don't know how many police shootings there are...
HOSTIN: But that's the problem.
TOOBIN: ... we don't why...
... because we don't have the records for these thing...
HOSTIN: And you know why we don't know? Because the FBI does of course try to get some of these numbers but guess what? They relay upon the officers to self report. Out of the 18,000 law enforcement officer -- departments all around the country they are suppose to self report...
TOOBIN: But when you need...
HOSTIN: ... and that's the problem Jeff not only is that the problem we have our police officers investigating their own and I would say 9 out 10 times they say guess what we didn't do anything wrong...
TOOBIN: Right absolutely...
HOSTIN: ... and that's the problem.
TOOBIN: ... but it would not be that difficult to say every time police discharge a gun to have to make some sort of report. I mean most police department, certainly the NYPD which I used work with has very elaborate rules for every time a police officer discharge a gun...
GERAGOS: The only way that there's anything -- a database...
TOOBIN: ... that has been investigation.
[21:25:01] GERAGOS: ... is the analysis that you cited which was Washington Post article.
COOPER: We got to take a quick break. We got a lot more to come this hour.
Just ahead, killing caught on camera the shooting of a suspect by a volunteer deputy in Tulsa is just one example. He said he meant to go for his taser but accidentally grabbed his gun and kill Dereck Harris.
Some would ask whether a more prevalent body cameras would create more accountability on police forces and the Department of Justice is launching a $20 million pilot programs to help pay for them. The question is will that help to solve the problem? We'll look into it next.
COOPER: Welcome back to these 360 Special Report: Police Under Fire. Now the Department of Justice just announced its launching $20 million program to buy body cameras for police officers. The Attorney General Loretta Lynch calls it a vital part of giving law enforcement what they need to tackle the 21st challenges they face.
Many police also say the body cameras will tell the full story during an encounter with a suspect because cellphone videos taken by bystanders often show police snippets that can be taken out of context.
Now cameras have already made a huge impact on police (inaudible). I want you to take a look -- we do want to warn you, some of the images you'll see are graphic.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: An officer in Arizona intensely runs over a suspect holding a rifle, a North Charleston police officer shoots and kills an unarmed man in the back as he runs away.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you understand me?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't know what -- you think you are right now.
COOPER: A New York City detective on a furious car raid against an Uber driver for honking at him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't know where you're coming from and why you think you're appropriate doing that? That doesn't -- is not the way it works. How long have you been in this country?
COOPER: All these incidents caught on cell phones, dashcams, body cams.
In Tulsa, Oklahoma a reserved deputy shoots a suspect during an undercover sting operation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Growl on your stomach.
COPPER: Later saying, he mistakenly pulled out his gun instead of his Taser.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, I shot him. I'm sorry.
COOPER: The deputy was charged of a second degree manslaughter whether this video helps him or hurts him remains to be seen.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get your hands up. Get your hands up. Get your hands up right now.
COOPER: But often video tape allows people to see the danger, police officer's faced on a daily basis.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stop. Stop right there. I don't want to shoot you, man.
COOPER: This body cam shows an officer in New Richmond, Ohio backing away from a suspect who suddenly charges. The officer refuses to shoot.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dude, I'll -- shoot you. Back up.
COOPER: Even tumbling backwards at one point before the suspect surrenders. These videos have worked both for and against officers either when the incident itself is not captured on camera.
In the desk of Freddie Gray in Baltimore and Michael Brown in Ferguson, only the aftermath was recorded. It was enough to lead to charges for the Baltimore officers but not in Ferguson.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Now, there's a lot to talk about in this subject. I want to bring back in Eric Adams, Brooklyn borough president and former NYPD captain, back with us also CNN Legal Analyst, Sunny Hostin. Again, Sunny is a former federal prosecutor. He used to live in Baltimore and he's friends with the current mayor. Also with us legal analyst Mark Geragos, a Criminal Defense Attorney and Anthony Scott the brother of Walter Scott who was shot in the back by a North Charleston police officer.
Mr. Scott, do you have any doubt that had your brother's death been recorded in the way it was that things would have moved so quickly because we know the officer in his initial report in a very different account than what we've all seen in the video.
ANTHONY SCOTT, BROTHER OF WALTER SCOTT: I definitely believe it would not move this fast as it did, and I think the body cameras is the most important thing that they need to do right now because it actually show the whole entire thing. But it would help the people to see it's good for the victims as well as the officers because it will bring more accountability on both sides.
Therefore, they won't act so hastily when they take action against individuals.
COOPER: Sunny, there are some police who obviously opposed body cameras but other police officers say, "You know what, it's actually going to show you how tough my job is". Your support on body cameras?
SUNNY HOSTIN, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Absolutely, I mean and I agree. I think it also supports the police officers because it will show how difficult the job is and it will show that transparency in terms of decisions that these officers have to make day-in and day- out. Bottom line, it's the best thing to do.
COOPER: Mark Geragos, is it the right -- is that right direction?
MARK GERAGOS, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It is, but it's a mandate, it really is.
The only reason that any of these cases get any attention is because, there's a camera there and wasn't necessarily a body camera. Somebody sees it because otherwise they don't believe that it can happen.
These police reports are always the same. They always read the same. They reach for the ways, I've thought, I was thought, I was danger. That's why I shot. It's a standard with me. It's almost the script that they read from.
COOPER: I want to bring in Emerald Garner who is very happy is joining us today. She is the daughter of Eric Garner who of course was killed after interaction with the police, much of the country, much of the world is now seeing that video.
In the case of your dad, the video didn't make a difference, charges were not brought. Do you support body cameras? Do believe had there been body cameras on those officers? Maybe it would be a different story.
EMERALD GARNER, DAUGHTER OF ERIC GARNER: I support body cameras. But I support them in the effect of you not being able to turn it off and on.
Your job is to protect the community. So if the community sees you're doing something wrong, we're going to pull (inaudible) to record it. And it's clear in the video what happened and there is like, you know, disconnect, I feel instead of (inaudible) there was no prosecution, there was nothing.
So, you know, I support the body cameras because they have a fear of doing something wrong like, you know, let me not do that because I'm going to get penalize for it.
COOPER: Eric, how do you change what you said, you know, that you're in a housing project that was you're in the elevator, one of the officers you are with said, "Look, everybody in this building is disgusting". You said, "No, everybody is this bolding is annoyed that one person you're in, how do you change that?
ADAMS: I think one of the answers is one of the guest you have in the room right now, a great police chief that understands that any time you have -- what we do in America now, my office is stand on corners and wait for something bad to happen and respond, no. That officer should be proactive.
Don't let your only encounter with a citizen be when they call you because you're telling them, I'm giving you a summons (ph), I'm locking you up if you do something wrong.
We have to be proactive. Officers must stop and afraid of this citizens, the citizens must stop and afraid of their officers. We are in this together.
COOPER: You know, Mark, what's interesting to me about this discussion is that, this is not a discussion about the police need to do less. This is actually a discussion which theoretically should lead to not only better policing but better solving crimes, because there are such a problem, as you know and as we all know, in a lot of communities, people not approaching police with information, not wanting to talk to police. It makes it all more difficult to solve...
GERAGOS: I think you would agree with me, you and I do not have the same experience with police in our communities that people have to have in their community.
COOPER: I got to pulled over for speeding about two months ago and I roll down the window I said, "Absolutely I was speeding, I've apologize officer. You're absolutely right, I was more than having to pay a ticket." And they were -- it was a lovely interaction, the person said, you know, said, "You know, don't worry about it. You know, just a warning. By the way I appreciate that I...
The officer is watching. Thank you very much.
GERAGOS: I will guarantee you that happens, not at all, in most communities...
COOPER: And that's it is what you were talking.
ADAMS: If the audience in the town hall which you -- we must hold on to, the officers come into police departments and they want to save life. They want to do the (inaudible).
They go to the police academy training and then they hit the streets where you have the senior officers and we are policing people differently based on the small number of people that are destroying community. And the residents of that community, they're watching drug dealer off the corner.
ADAMS: They want to pedophile on court. They want to rob on court. But we are looking at that one officer because many of our police officers come from communities outside the communities, they bombarder with stereotypes on TV on with all black people are like or black people don't need fried chicken and water melon on Sunday morning. You can't police everyone based on your stereotype.
GERAGOS: But the other things that they do which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever...
HOSTIN: And I can tell you as a daughter of an African-American man, as the wife of a man of color, my husband and my father have never had the driving experiences that you have had.
The stories that -- they tell me is when they stopped, they are terrified, they get as many tickets as the officer can possibly write. They may -- and they feel that they may end up in prison, that's the experience of an African-American man with law enforcement is very different.
COOPER: We are taking now the quick break. Just ahead we are going to deal into a key part of the equation, the biases that everybody has. We all have whether we know it or not whether we want to admit it or not.
How does implicit bias affect the way police do their job everyday? It's a big discussion, we'll have that.
COOPER: Well, we've heard so often in Baltimore, in New York, in all of this protest is the same rally in cry, Black Lives Matter.
The message behind that, so, many in the black community feel that the police in their neighborhoods and the justice system as a whole treat them like their lives don't matter. It's a message about bias and whether it's conscious or subconscious, its hurting people.
We've done a lot of reporting on this issue over the years including a study that show that bias is not only very real. It starts way younger than you might think. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Show me the bad child.
Why is he the bad child?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because he is black.
COOPER: What you're watching is a study examining the roots of bias. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Show me the dumb child.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Dumb child?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Why is she the dumb child?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because she is black skin.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Show me the child who has the skin color most adults like.
And show me the child who has the skin color most adults don't like?
COOPER: 360 Commission to renounce child psychologists to ask more than 130 children from all over the country questions about race. Her study is based on the famous doll test of the 1940s which show the racial bias children develop from segregation, some of which still exist today.
In the study, children of all races even as young as four years old seemingly peeped up (ph) on the racial biases of society and all the ugliness that can sometimes come with that.
What happens to these racial attitudes as children grow up? Are they still conclusively or subconsciously part of our adult lives?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Spokane police. Police Department -- Hey, hey, talk to me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Inaudible) as we get cover.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, let me see...
COOPER: New research partly funded by the Department of Justice is now studying bias in police officers on how they react to light skin suspects versus dark skin.
At this lab in Spokane, Washington, officers undergo a simulation. Their brain waves and heart rates are monitored to see how they react during confrontations like this one.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You receive a call from a person who says a convenience store is being robbed. Do you understand?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Standby.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, hey. Back up. Back up. Back up. Put your hands up. Put your hands up. Drop the knife right now. Drop it.
COOPER: The suspect on this scenario is white. But do officers react differently if the suspect is black?
The study found officers do tend to see black suspects as more threatening than white suspects. But they're more restrained in shooting black suspects perhaps subconsciously overcompensating because of that bias.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Joining me now, our CNN Political Commentator and the New York Times Columnist Charles Blow, Former NYPD Officer Dan Bongino, Camden County, New Jersey Police Chief Scott Thomson. He's the chief Eric Adam's reference in our last segment as the chief is doing the right thing with his police force. And with us, again, is Sybrina Fulton, Trayvon Martin's mother.
Chief, thanks very much for being with us. Do you believe implicit bias is an issue and how do you see it playing out?
CHIEF SCOTT THOMSON, CAMDEN COUNTRY, NEW JERSEY POLICE: It is. So, we all have biases. Every human being has biases. And the first step is to acknowledge that and to best assess how that's factoring into decision-making.
What we have found is that, there's very, very strong solid issues that the stereotypes that end up creating a lot of these biases. The best remedy to start to mitigate those that facts implicit biases which ultimately calls officers to act in a certain way is to create and enhance the experiences with people that live in those community.
COOPER: So, that's what you've tried to do in Camden?
THOMSON: What we did was, we essentially put all of our officers, out in footly (ph) patrols for 10 and 12 hours shifts. And by the officers getting to know the people by name and the people able to get the officers by name, what we have seen in the communities is 96 percent minority and had crime rates that were rivaling that of several countries.
We were - in less than 24 months be able to cut our shootings, our murders and hit.
COOPER: Dan, I want to read you this study back in 2000 by the Department of Justice and it highlights discrepancy between the way white police officers and African-American police officers view things.
According to the study, 57 percent of African-American officers thought African-Americans and other minorities were given unequal treatment by police but only five percent white officers thought African-Americans were given unequal treatment.
It's a pretty huge discrepancy.
DAN BONGINO, FORMER NYPD OFFICER: Well, I don't think any rationale person can doubt the fact that the black experience with the policing in America has been far different, but the question is, what are the remedies?
I think on the training side and on the community polices side, those are some incredible options which I strongly agree with. Me having been white and having police, the 75 Precinct at least (ph) New York, Brooklyn which was maybe 90 percent was black. I was -- I'd never lived in a primarily black area. It was very helpful for me to walk a beat 6: 00 P.M. to 2:00 A.M. in the morning and get to know who the social influences are in the neighborhood.
But we also have to worry about the reactive side as well. And I don't think we should jump to conclusions on whenever we see a use of force incident that there's necessarily a racial component because I think what happens is you see that defense mechanism with police officers, where all of the sudden I feel like even if there wasn't a racial incident that am I going to be judge because there's a racial discrepancy. I maybe white or I maybe black, and the officer maybe white.
COOPER: Charles, do you agree with the chief? It says one way to start to overcome bias is to have more contact whether it's more contact between officers...
CHARLES BLOW, NEW YORK TIMES OP-ED COLUMNIST: Right.
COOPER: ... in the community, more contact -- I mean the more you learn about other people, the more time you spend with people were different, the more perhaps you're eyes are up (ph).
BLOW: Right. What the police chief is saying is that they are basically doing is experiment in real-time on the ground and they are seeing results. And that is good but that's not necessarily the scientific data that we need as a country to adapt sort of all police forces no matter where they are can adapt best practices based on science. We simply do not have that data.
And that is, we should all look at that and say, "This is incredible that we don't have this sort of data. It is incredible that the data -- the best data that we have is from the FBI. And that's voluntary reporting.
COOPER: It seems to me though and the it's only the parents, I think, can play a role with their kids is, the parents that I interviewed for that doll study that we did. They were stunned to see therefore in five-year old child when asked who is the good child without any prompting any explanation of, you know, why one would be good and one not going toward pointing, you know, it's the white child is the good child. The darker skin child is the problem child.
We saw that over and over again, even among African-American kids having this implicit bias. The parents were stunned and a lot of them starting to feel like a lot of them, it's a previously well, I don't need to have a conversation with my child about this because my child doesn't see race.
BLOW: The largest study about this which is -- was developed by research that Harvard is maintained by researchers at the University of Virginia has found that everybody except black people had an enormous anti-black, pro-white subconscious bias. Secondly though, I think and more importantly is that a third of all
black people have anti-black, pro-white bias. The idea that we are not also submerge in the same poison of perceptions is I think of misconception. We believe that is somebody looks like me, I cannot possibly have a bias against that person which is absolutely not scientifically true.
[21:50:00] COOPER: You know, Sybrina, one of the things that Charles and I have talked to you a lot over the years, and particularly, in the wake of your son's killing was the conversations parents have with their kids. Was that something you would had with Trayvon Martin, with Trayvon about how to interact with police? Is that a conversation you now encourage other parents you have with their kids?
SYBRINA FULTON, TRAYVON MARTIN'S MOTHER: What I think is happening is now our young people our teenagers are seeing more of them being killed. And so they want to know how they can prevent it.
You know, we have our young people now that's afraid to walk down the street or play the music too loud a different things like that. So I think it's a important conversation to have with your child because now you have a lot of parents a lot of families that are trying to hold on to their kids because they just simply don't want to seem killed. They just don't want them murdered.
And is one thing to go to the journey of having your child murder but it's another one when a person is not held accountable you feel like, you know, I've lost twice, I've lost my child and then I lost the case by not having a person held accountable. So it hurts even more deeper for the families.
COOPER: We're going to take another quick break. I want to thank our panel.
Up next, you let the lasting impression not only on her son but on everyone who saw this mom taking action during the unrest in Baltimore. She joins me next for discussion about role of parents and citizen.
COOPER: We spend the past hour talking about police, and trust, and how to get things back on track in communities around the country nearly everyone agrees that one way to do that is, people in communities getting more involved whether be with the police, with people on the street or maybe even within their own families.
One of the most enduring and talk about images from Baltimore last week was, when a mom went to find her son in the midst of violence and pulled her son out of the fray, you probably, all seen this video by now of Toya Graham grabbing her son Michael and making it crystal clear which she thought of his involvement.
When I was in Baltimore, I spoke with Toya and with Michael. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: When you saw your mom, when you first made eye contact, what went through your mind?
MICHAEL SINGLETON: I was just right, "Oh, man. Like..."
COOPER: You were like...
SINGLETON: Oh, man, like my mother. And when my mother going down here like why is she'd be down here.
COOPER: He said it was like World War III when Toya actually finally saw him.
Toya Graham joins us now, also with us here in New York is Bobby Valentine, another strong voice we met last week. He's a Vietnam War veteran who stood with his back to police lines trying to get some young people who were taunting police, throwing things at police to remain calm. I appreciate both of you being with us.
Toya, one of the things I know you also said to him was this is not how you were raised and two wrongs don't make a right.
I think a lot of people don't realize you have six kids. One of your daughters actually wants to join the Baltimore Police Department force.
TOYA GRAHAM, MOTHER WHO STOPPED SON FROM RIOTING: Yeah. She's now -- she is, God (ph), as we speak and she has taken the test. She was supposed to take the second test on Saturday but unfortunately because the system -- the city was shutdown, she wasn't able to take the test so.
At that point, we talked to Michael just by saying, you know, this could have been your sister standing near with those rocks men (inaudible) and how would you have felt.
COOPER: Robert, you as I said, stood with your back to police, trying to get some young people stop, you were out there night, after night, after night. It's -- it must have feel good to see that community responding to what happened Monday night, to see the men, the moms -- there was a 14-year old girl on that line linking arms with her mom and another gentleman to try to get people to not attack the police.
BOBBY VALENTINE, VIETNAM WAR VETERAN WHO CONFRONTED BALTIMORE PROTESTERS: That was very astounding because they came out and united to stop the violence. You know, they didn't come to antagonize. And when I look back and I saw this line forming, I'm like, "Wooh, I got to back up". So we hind it right there and we kept the (inaudible) getting to the police.
COOPER: And I think that's, you know, for a lot of people, the violence on Monday was the image they may have at Baltimore. For me, after being there, that's the image I have at Baltimore. You're standing there and all those other people, and those pastors and then, church groups standing there to try to stop it. Would you like to see that continue? That sense of community, policing community involvement?
VALENTINE: Yes. The village looked after the village itself. The elders in there instead of staying at home and watch their children out playing, you know, disturbing the peace so they have them at home. Sit down and talk to them. Let them know from once they came. The history of their city and be proud of it.
COOPER: And, Toya, I know when you and I were talking the other day, one of the other things you said is that there needs to be better interaction between the police and the community not just in crisis that it can't just be, you know, a police officer whether they are white or black just coming in, in a moment of crisis. There's got to be police there at other times and having, you know, you got to go and talk to the police.
GRAHAM: Teenagers cannot walk up to a police officer as adult and just have a general conversation with them, you know, we don't see that in Baltimore City. And all polices is not dead in Baltimore City but we just don't get the kind love for them.
COOPER: It seems -- Chief Thomson, from Camden is here and that echoes a lot of what you were saying earlier about what you're trying to change in Camden, New Jersey.
THOMSON: Well, healthy and sustained, safe communities don't come from governmental agents or force that go into neighborhoods and notarized them. That's an immediate polarizing factor.
What it comes from is when the police can empower Mrs. Graham's and Mr. Valentine's, into, as you saw what they did within their community.
What you find is there are far more good people that there are bad people. And when you do create that type of environment, you will get a healthy, safer, more prosperous community.
COOPER: Chief, I appreciate you being with us, Mr. Valentine, so it's an honor, thank you so much. And, Toya, thank you so much, I hope your daughter completes that application and gets hired by Baltimore Police. I've met her. She'll be a great person to have for the city.
[22:00:00] Thank you so much. And thank you for watching. This is an important discussion. We hope an ongoing one. Hope you have a great evening and see 360 SPECIAL REPORT. Thanks very much.
"CNN TONIGHT", folks.