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ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT
Police Searching for Other DC Mansion Murder Suspects; Police: Key Witness in Mansion Murders Changes Story; TLC Pulls "19 Kids and Counting," Star Admits Molesting Kids. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired May 22, 2015 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[19:00:09] ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: OUTFRONT next, breaking news, police on the hunt for more accomplices in the D.C. mansion murder. This as a key witness tonight changes his story.
Plus, a Duggar family bombshell. TLC now pulling the hit show "19 Kids and Counting" after the oldest son admits he molested girls, including his own siblings. What's next for the devout Christian family?
And Kim Jong-un's brother spotted at an Eric Clapton's concert singing "I Shot the Sheriff." Let's go OUTFRONT.
Good evening, I'm Erin Burnett. And OUTFRONT tonight, we begin with breaking news. Police at this moment looking for more suspects in the gruesome Washington, D.C. mansion murders.
According to a new court document that we have obtained, investigators believe the main suspect, Daron Wint did not act alone when he allegedly bound, tortured and murder a high profile couple, their ten- year-old son and a housekeeper. Now this revelation coming just as the suspect appearing in court today looking at a picture where he looked like wearing a white prison outfit, his hands and feet shackled, his head down, no emotion shown whatsoever according to our reporter who was there. Wint was captured last night in Washington after an intense manhunt that stretched to New York. Also tonight, police revealing a key witness to the murder is now changing his story. A lot of breaking details to get to.
And Pamela, you're outside the home where that family was murdered, I mean, this mystery is deepening and the news that is coming out on this, some of these developments are really surprising.
PAMELA BROWN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely. You know, there may be one suspect in custody, Erin. But this appears to be far from over. These newly released court documents that just came out today suggests that Daron Wint had accomplices in the quadruple homicide in the home behind me and that there were several witness who played a role in delivering the $40,000 to the family's home before the four victims were killed.
BROWN (voice-over): The newly released court documents suggest Daron Wint arrested overnight in a massive police takedown could not have acted alone. Allegedly kidnapping and holding the Savopoulos family and their housekeeper hostage for 18 hours before brutally beating them, stabbing them and setting their house on fire. Tonight CNN has learned police believed Wint and others were involved in an elaborate shakedown on the family, one that involved Savvas Savopoulos asking the family's assistant to go to a nearby bank and withdraw $40,000 in cash and then deliver it to the house.
ROBERT FERNANDEZ, U.S. MARSHAL COMMANDER: We tracked him up to New York and we barely missed him.
BROWN: Police say Wint was spotted getting into a white Chevy cruise outside of a Maryland Howard Johnson Hotel along with three other women. Police also spotted a moving truck traveling ahead of Wint's car, inside was Wint's brother and another man.
FERNANDEZ: We followed them for about four or five miles and they did a wacky u-turn. We thought maybe they felt they were being tailed, we follow them, we continued to follow them, we called PG County police and they sent up a helicopter.
BROWN: Inside the box truck police found at least $10,000. Tonight investigators are looking at what role the group may have played in the brutal killings of the Savopoulos family, especially in light of the complexity of holding them hostage, extorting them and then burning down the house.
MARY O'TOOLE, FBI PROFILER: You don't have to spend multiple hours, eight, nine, ten hours in someone's home to extort money. And in this case I'm very certain that the father would have given the offender ten times $40,000 just to get him out of the house.
BROWN: New court documents, including autopsies released tonight, show just how brutal the 18-hour ordeal was. Ten-year-old Phillip Savopoulos was found burned with stab wounds in an upstairs bedroom. The fire allegedly fueled by gasoline for throughout the house. The other adults were found in another room with blunt force wound. Firefighter tried to save the housekeeper but she died at the hospital. Tonight investigators appear to be questioning the story told by one key witness who police say was a frequent driver by the family and was asked by Savopoulos to pick up the $40,000 ransom at a Bank of America and deliver it to the family. Police say in court document that witness changed his or her story about the cash drop-off to the home.
BROWN: But there's still a very active investigation, we have learned that the five people who were with Daron Wint last night are no longer in police custody. We reached Daron Wint's father today who told us that the reason why Daron Wint was with his brother last night is because his brother as soon as he heard that, you know, that Daron Wint was a wanted man, he went to go find him to help him turn him into police. That is the story coming from Daron Wint's father tonight -- Erin.
[19:05:09] BURNETT: All right. Pamela, thank you very much with the breaking details.
And now forensic psychologist Brian Russell joins me along with our legal analyst Paul Callan. And Dr. Cyril Wecht, a forensic pathologist. Brian, let me start with you on this crucial issue of how many people were involved. Right? We now have Daron Wint appearing in court. They've found him. But police are saying that the murders required the, quote, "presence and assistance of more than one person." Do you agree?
BRIAN RUSSELL, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: I do agree. And I like to have smart answers for you. But tonight, Erin, I think I might have more questions than answers. You would think that anybody who fit the profile that we were talking about last night, a psychopath, would not be ordering extra pizza for the victims who were in the process of being tortured and killed. So, we've got this big pizza ordered, two pizzas. You would think that the extra pizza would have been for extra perpetrators on the scene. But then we find out that one of the pizzas was never touch.
RUSSELL: So, every time we think we have an answer, we end up with another question -- Erin.
BURNETT: Right. And Brian, just in terms of the motives here, you have someone who is a psychopath, who is sadistic, who gets pleasure out of some horrific acts and doing it over such a period of time, would that person be able to find anyone to go along and do this with them? That sort of where I was a little bit confused.
RUSSELL: Yes, unfortunately, we've seen many cases with serial killers acting totally alone and then we've got ISIS, an entire organization with, you know, six or seven figures worth of people in it who commit atrocities like this. So, it can happen with an individual, it can happen with a group -- Erin.
BURNETT: And Dr. Wecht, you just heard Brian bring up the pizza which obviously was central to the DNA evidence which they got that led them to Daron Wint. Right? He had been charged with many things over the years. So, he was in the system. The DNA matched. That's how they found his name. What evidence do you think that police have that makes them certain there was more than one killer, given this crucial thing which is again the DNA came from pizza for Daron Wint. But there was only part one pizza eaten.
DR. CYRIL WECHT, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Erin, about a hundred years ago a very famous French criminalist Locard set forth the Locard Principle. When two people are in some kind of a confrontation, whatever it may be, there's going to be something left over. And that was long before DNA was around. So, you have all kinds of trace evidence, fingerprints and footprints and hair and little pieces of material from the garments. You'll look for all of these things in every one of the rooms in which these people in the house were. They will look for these things on the victim's bodies and their clothing. They will look for things even on Wint and maybe some clothing he was wearing, on clothing he may have discarded if it's still around. So, this is the way you proceed with all of these things. It's called forensic trace evidence, DNA of course being the most specific. So, wherever may be, and wherever something may have been touched, whether it's a pizza box or the glass or the toilet that they probably used, certainly in 18 hours, all of these things will be gone over very, very meticulously. As far as whether or not one person could have done that and how to you prove it, if there's evidence of more than one and some mentality haven't been used, that suggest strongly doesn't confirm, that suggest strongly that maybe two people were involved. Usually, one person -- the little boy, I would just like to make this comment. It sounds to me considering those injuries on that 10-year-old boy, he was being used as a kind of a quasi-ransom.
WECHT: And Mr. Savopoulos, you get this money or this is what will happen to your kid. And this went on over a period of time, these injuries infected on this child. That's what that was all about to Savopoulos to make sure that he comes through with the money and to make sure that he and his wife and the housekeeper do not try to escape or produce any kind of altercation that might bring things to the neighbors attention.
BURNETT: Which is horrific. Now you know, Paul, in terms of this issue of the child being used as ransom, the father did then call his assistant who had driven him around, formally worked as his assistant and told him to go get money. The assistant goes and gets the money. When police spoke to this assistant though, the person changed their story. Okay. So first they said one thing happened, then they said another thing happened. And certainly right after they left that house and dropped off that money, they didn't call police. That is actually a very, very crucial thing. That would indicate the person either dropped off money all the time at the house or had some other reasons for not calling the police after dropping off the money.
PAUL CALLAN, FORMER PROSECUTOR: I think it's extremely odd. If you're questioned in by the police in a situation like this where four people have been killed, you would have a very distinct and clear recollection as to the details of dropping the money off. Police are now saying that this person changed their story about what was involved in the drop-off. That's highly suspicious on the face of things right there. And secondly, there's an affidavit that was submitted to the court when they were procuring an arrest warrant which refers to the fact that there were had to be multiple individuals involved in the crime. So obviously police, while they're investigating it, have already concluded that there may be more than one person involved.
[19:10:14] BURNETT: And you're not ruling even this person out as a suspect at this point if you were looking at it?
CALLAN: No, I frankly, you know, listen, we don't know what the real story is but that version certainly sounds suspicious to me. If I was dropping off money to a guy who was being held by kidnappers for ransom, I would remember what happened that day. BURNETT: All right. There's going to be a lot of questions about that. Again that individual getting $40,000 in wads of cash and bringing it, dropping it off in the car, in the garage, and then leaving the house. And as far as we know at that time did not call police. Thanks so much to all three of you.
And next, a man who has just spoken with the family of Daron Wint. We're going to tell you exactly what they're saying tonight and we'll see if he still stands by Daron Wint.
Plus, TLC hit show "19 Kids and Counting" gone, off the air and as presidential candidate Mike Huckabee comes to the Duggar family's defense. Should Josh Duggar be forgiven for molesting girls including his own siblings?
And reality show families, just like us or total train wrecks.
[19:14:50] BURNETT: The breaking news tonight, police on the lookout for more accomplices in the brutal murders of a prominent Washington couple, their ten-year-old son and a housekeeper. Prosecutors say it is unlikely that the main suspect Daron Wint acted alone when he bound them with duct tapes, stabbed, tortured, and finally brutally murdered his victims, dousing them with gasoline and then torching their mansion. Wint appeared in court today, he's been charged with first degree murder. Police captured him last night after an intense manhunt that spans from the East Coast, New York all the way to Maryland. This is just part of Wint's dangerous past which includes being charged with at least 15 crimes.
Erin McLaughlin is OUTFRONT.
ERIN MCLAUGHLIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Police say, this is the face of a cold blooded killer, 34-year-old Daron Wint now charged with first degree murder. Accused of the brutal slaying of businessman Savvas Savopoulos, his wife, ten-year-old son and their housekeeper. Police say, Wint's DNA was traced through Dominos Pizza crust found at the family's burned out home. Tonight, we're learning new details about Wint's connection to the Savopoulos family, the company, American Iron Works. Savvas Savopoulos was the CEO. Police say, Wint worked there. It's unclear for how long.
CHIEF CATHY LANIER, METROPOLITAN POLICE DEPARTMENT: There was a working relationship several years ago. But beyond that we still have a lot of people to talk to, to firm up what exactly -- how that relationship has been in the more recent years.
MCLAUGHLIN: In an interview with WRC, his former co-worker criticized the accused murder.
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: The truth, he couldn't get along with anybody.
MCLAUGHLIN: CNN affiliate WJLA spoke to a woman who says she's a relative of Wint.
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: He doesn't listen. He's very argumentative. Everywhere he goes, it's an argument.
MCLAUGHLIN: The same day the bodies were discovered, she says Wint turned up after his father's Maryland home near miles from where the Savopoulos porch was found ablaze.
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: He came here. He's not working, he's eating and going to the gym and not doing anything.
MCLAUGHLIN: In 2001, Wint tried to join the marines but after two months of training he left. It's not clear why. Since then he's been charged with at least 15 crimes ranging from sexual assault to theft. He's been convicted at least three times. In 2005 his father received a protective order to keep Wint away from his family. Five years ago he was arrested across the street from American ironworks. According to court documents, police found him behind a dumpster with a 24-inch long machete and a bb gun. Charges were never filed.
That same year he was accused of threatening to kill a woman and her two-year-old and smashing the front and back windows of their car. Wint later pled guilty to malicious destruction of property and was sentenced to serve 28 days in jail. Now accused of the brutal murders of four people, he could face a lifetime behind bars.
MCLAUGHLIN: Now on either Sunday or Monday, police say they believe Wint fled D.C. for Brooklyn. They think he was actually hiding out with his girlfriend. They haven't released her identity but police here say they think they just missed him in New York -- Erin.
BURNETT: All right, Erin. Thank you very much. And OUTFRONT now, former NYPD officer and private investigator Bill Stanton. Robin Ficker, a former attorney for Daron Wint. And our legal analyst Paul Callan, he is back. Robin, let me start with you. Your former client Daron Wint of course now has been captured, charged with first degree murder in the brutal slaying of four people. I know you spoke to his family today. You're going to be meeting with them on Monday. What did they tell you?
ROBIN FICKER, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR DARON WINT: They called me around 2:00 this afternoon and requested that they come to my law office. I arranged a meeting Monday evening when I get back here from the outer banks. We're going to be discussing Daron, we're going to be discussing the entire circumstance and possible representation. But nothing is set yet.
BURNETT: Now, Robin, last night you told me that Wint, you kept -- you said Erin, you keep talking about him being charged. You don't have convictions. So, we spent some time looking into that. Because we wanted to make sure we have all the facts here. CNN has confirmed three convictions here just in New York, one for assault and one for malicious destruction of property. You just heard our reporter also talking about Wint's own father petitioning for restraining order against him. His father wrote -- that his son stood in his front yard threatening to shoot his entire family. How does that square with what you told me. You told me Wint was a good man.
[19:19:17] FICKER: He is a good man. The assault conviction you're talking about, I don't believe there was any jail time in that case. He had an argument with his father. Every child has an argument with his father. Oftentimes heated over a lifetime. That's not unexpected. I think that his father loves him. His family is coming to see me to help him. You know, they really stretching the facts, the police. They called him armed and dangerous. When he was taken in, there were no weapons whatsoever. He was passive. The money was not with Mr. Wint. It was in another vehicle. If someone killed people for money, wouldn't they keep that money near them? If they were in control, wouldn't they keep the money with them? The money was not with him. If anything, he was a bit player in this horrendous episode.
BURNETT: Bill, what do you make of this? Now, one point that Robin said was a bit player. Now they are looking for other people.
BILL STANTON, FORMER NYPD OFFICER: Yes.
BURNETT: So I guess we don't know what anybody's individual role could have been or how many people could have been there.
BURNETT: But you heard our reporter goes through the criminal background, at least 15 charges, we have at least three convictions. You actually think this is just the tip of the iceberg.
STANTON: Yes. Where there's smoke, there's fire. I understand Erin, this is only the things he was arrested for. There may have been many other crimes that he just didn't get caught on. And you know, counsel, you got yourself a client now. I hope if he ever makes bail he stays at your house because he's such a good boy. But Erin, this man murdered -- it's alleged he murdered a ten-year-old child. There are two families that are grieving for the people that are dead. Counsel, you got your work cut out for you. My prediction, he's going to roll over and give up conspirators real quick.
BURNETT: Paul, what do you make of those, as a lawyer who has not someone who represented Daron Wint?
CALLAN: Well, it's astonishing to hear another attorney get on the air and really outline how the man is innocent when he's never spoken to him and doesn't know whether he's guilty or innocent. So, we'd really have to know what the facts are and what the evidence is before we can speculating about whether he's in fact guilty or innocent to the crime. And I heard Mr. Ficker talking about the presumption of innocence which I believe in as a lawyer. But, you know something, that doesn't mean you're actually innocent. Charlie Manson was presumed innocent, as was Jeffrey Dahmer, John Wilkes Booth and everybody else who's been tried in America.
BURNETT: Dzhokhar Tsarnaev. CALLAN: It doesn't mean you're actually innocent.
FICKER: So was a man recently that I defended in court. The best plea offer was 40 years and the jury came back and said not guilty 23 times in a row.
STANTON: That doesn't prove that this man is innocent of this crime, sir. You've not even spoken to him. You know --
FICKER: He doesn't have to prove he's innocent. The state has to prove he's guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. He doesn't have to prove anything.
STANTON: Well, what does that have to do on whether he's actually innocent or guilty?
FICKER: There's a presumption of innocence and the police --
STANTON: Does that mean -- one question.
FICKER: You're calling him a murderer.
STANTON: Does that mean you're actually innocent if there's a presumption of innocence?
FICKER: It means that you may very well be innocence. Certainly --
STANTON: And you may very well be guilty as well.
BURNETT: Let Robin finish.
STANTON: We're not in China. We're not under Mr. Putin here. This is the United States and we have a very nice buffer called a jury between the king and the people who are deciding the case.
CALLAN: Let's hope this good boy gets what he deserves.
BURNETT: So, Robin, let me ask you another point. We've also found out five years ago Wint was arrested across the street from American Iron Works. As you know, he had worked there at one point and the victim of this horrific crime, the father was the CEO of American Iron Works. So, five years ago, he's found across the street, behind a dumpster with a 24-inch long machete and a bb gun. What do you make of that?
FICKER: What a joke that arrest was. There was a plea to an open container of alcohol. So, anything you read five years later about a machete or a gun is pure nonsense speculation. Because there would have been a plea to a concealed dangerous weapon or a dangerous weapon. There was a plea to a can of beer. Every student in the student in the Washington has a can of beer before he's done.
BURNETT: All right. Well, thanks very much to all of you. I appreciate it. We'll look forward to talking to you Robin, after you talk to the family to see if they are going to stand by that person, their son or not. OUTFRONT next, Josh Duggar of the hit show "19 Kids and Counting" admits to molesting girls, including his siblings. Now TLC is pulling the ones wholesome family show off the air. The question though is why it took so long for such a dark truth to come out.
[19:24:06] Plus, Honey Boo Boo, Jon and Kate plus eight, the other TLC shows that have come under fire and the famous families that fell apart.
[19:28:10] BURNETT: Tonight, TLC pulling its hit show "19 And Counting" about the supposedly wholesome Duggar family off the air. That's after the oldest son Josh admitted he molested a number of girls, some of them include his own siblings. The molestation happened when Duggar was a teen. He's now 27 years old. He has married. He has three children of his own and one more on the way. The Duggar family regularly talks about their Christian beliefs, they have campaigned for conservative candidates including 2016 presidential hopeful Mike Huckabee. Today Huckabee supported the Duggars. I wanted to read to you his quote. He said of Josh Duggar, "Good people make mistakes and do regrettable and even disgusting things." We'll have much more on that in just a moment. But first, the big question is, how did this disgusting scandal stay buried for so long.
Dan Simon begins our coverage OUTFRONT.
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: This is the story of my family. We're the Duggars.
DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Duggar family seemed Taylor made for a reality show. At "19 Kids and Counting" has been a huge hit for TLC.
JOSH DUGGAR, "19 KIDS AND COUNTING": The pink balloon say it all, we're having a girl.
SIMON: And turns out the ever growing family espousing conservative Christian beliefs made for good ratings.
(DUGGAR FAMILY SINGING "JOY TO THE WORLD")
SIMON: But now a bombshell as a dark family secrets explodes out into the open.
DUGGAR: Hello, I'm Josh Duggar from TLC's "19 Kids And Counting."
SIMON: Josh Duggar, the charismatic oldest child is accused of molesting several girls, including some of his siblings when he was 14. That stunning revelation coming from In Touch magazine which obtained a 2006 Springdale, Arkansas police report. It details among other things that Josh Duggar confessed to his father Jim Bob Duggar who has apparently waited more than a year before contacting authorities. Instead the Duggars say they told elders at their church and received counseling.
CHARLOTTE TRIGGS, SENIOR EDITOR, PEOPLE MAGAZINE: Obviously this is a family that had built their reputation and their brand on the idea of being wholesome and, you know, having family values and then to discover that something like this had gone down is truly shocking.
SIMON: The Duggars have been able to capitalize on their fame and Josh has become a favorite by conservatives for his outspoken views against abortion and same-sex marriage.
JOSH DUGGAR: I believe sincerely that the people of every state should remain free to uphold marriage as a union of one man and one woman.
SIMON: Josh Duggar in a statement acknowledging the allegations, quote, "Twelve years ago as a young teenage, I acted inexcusably for which I am extremely and deeply regret. I hurt others, including my family and friends," he writes. "We spoke with the authorities where I confessed my wrongdoing, and my parents arranged for me and those affected by my actions to receive counseling."
The fallout has been swift, with TLC pulling the show from its schedule and Josh Duggar resigning as executive director of the conservative Family Research Council.
And social media has been particularly harsh. Montel Williams tweeting, "Gosh, yet another anti-gay alleged Christian defender turns out to be a garden variety scumbag."
SIMON: Josh Duggar was never charged with a crime and the statute of limitation to charge him now has expired. Anna Duggar, his 26-year- old wife, says she knew about her husband's, quote, "past teenage mistakes" before they got marry and that she remains committed to him -- Erin.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: That's one of the more incredible parts about this story.
Thank you very much, Dan.
And OUTFRONT tonight, Alexander Hitchen, an editor at "In Touch" magazine, part of the team that broke this major story, and psychotherapist, Robi Ludwig.
OK. Good to have both of you with you.
Alexander, let me start with you. How was this covered up for so long? Law enforcement actually was aware of it soon after it happened but it never went anywhere.
ALEXANDER HITCHEN, EDITOR, IN TOUCH MAGAZINE: Absolutely right. So, it is a very convoluted story but I will try to make it as brief as possible. 2002, we had Jim Bob Duggar.
BURNETT: The father.
HITCHEN: The father, being told that his son Josh had molested a child. So, Jim Bob is then told subsequently that this has been going on a couple of times and Jim Bob still doesn't go to the police about it. It takes Jim Bob nine months to alert church elders. And then three months later they decide to go to Arkansas state troop police and talk about it.
Now, the Arkansas state troop police did not file the report and alert the necessary authorities about it.
So, let's go to 2006 now and the Duggars are about to be on Oprah Winfrey. A concerned member of the area contacts Oprah, the producers, and says there's a lot that you don't know and spills everything out to them. They, quite rightly, contact the police and an investigation is started in 2006 about it. But problem was, as was mentioned in the piece, the statute of limitations had already passed.
BURNETT: So it didn't go anywhere then.
BURNETT: So how -- we're talking about someone who molested his own siblings, OK? This is not just molesting -- not that there's any molesting that's OK. But we're also talking about his own siblings.
HITCHEN: If I just may say, we have never discussed who the victims of this are. Other reports may claim to know, but we have not discussed who it is.
BURNETT: How surprised are you though that this never came to light before?
BURNETT: Especially given the fame of this family now and he was a very, very well-known person.
HITCHEN: Right. Right. Well, this is the thing. There is a lot of chatter -- we became pretty intrigued by it quite recently about what the truth to the Internet rumors that were going around. So we sent a team of reporters to find out.
We sent investigative reporters down to Arkansas to speak with a number of people. They knocked on so many doors. They spoke with so many people.
And there were a lot of people that actually felt that the Duggars had not accounted for something that they should have done. And let's be clear -- when we got the report, we used a thing called the FOIA, which is Freedom of Information Act --
[19:35:03] HITCHEN: -- to using Arkansas state law to ask the Springdale police to disclose as much as they legally could. They sent it to us and we put it online and "In Touch" magazine has all of the details.
BURNETT: That's how you were able to break it.
Now, Dr. Ludwig, according to the police report that Alexander and his team were able to obtain through this Freedom of Information Act request, Josh was sent to a program, OK, for four months. According to police report, it consisted of hard physical work and counseling. And afterwards, the parents told the police they felt their son no longer had a problem.
We're talking about a person who was 14 at that time molesting girls who were even younger. Physical work fixes that? Four months fixes that? Is this crazy?
DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: No. I think it's important to know that there's a different between adult molesters and juveniles who molest. And there are --
BURNETT: You're not going quite so far as to stay traditional pedophile.
LUDWIG: Right, no. He might turn into that, or it's possible that juvenile offenders can turn into pedophiles, but not all of them do. And in fact some of them can receive treatment and get better and go on to live --
BURNETT: But is this the treatment?
LUDWIG: -- law abiding life.
Not necessarily. Having said that, I think it's important that it was recognized and that a certain type of intervention was made. Did it work? That's really for the Duggars to observe, whether their son, after that kind of treatment, was able to behave appropriately, to not act impulsively, to not reoffend or re-abuse the children he was abusing.
BURNETT: One of the things that stands out here, and I know Alexander is not talking about this part specifically, but what we do know about some of the victims, that some of them were his own siblings. OK? This adds a level to this many people find more disturbing than the initial story itself.
Now, the Duggar family has been strict about dating rules and I wanted to play something that the parents, Michelle and Jim Bob, actually said during the show's premier last year.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIM BOB DUGGAR: As far as our kids dating, we believe a lot of times if you're alone with a person, that it can create desires that get stirred up and you don't have in accountability and it can lead to hanky pinky.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No holdings hands. No kissing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No kissing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Always have a chaperon with us at all times.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do side hugs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Obviously, we're saving our first kiss for marriage.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: OK. Does that add into this at all? Because when people hear the part again about siblings, they might think this person is sicker than sick.
LUDWIG: Well, it just makes me wonder if sexual feelings for described as bad and shameful, so that made it that much harder for a child who's 14 and probably has all of the hormones stirring up, felt like his impulses for bad and he needed to act on them in a secretive way.
You know, that doesn't explain why he did what he did, and when they do their research, they show there's no one type of family that these molesters come from. So you can't stereotype them. But it could have played a role in why this particular child acted the way he did.
BURNETT: All right. Well, I appreciate both of your time tonight, and thank you.
And OUTFRONT next, is there any thing real about reality TV? Squeaky clean Duggars obviously not. And they're not the only ones to have a deep dark secret. Our special report.
Plus, what was Kim Jong-un's older brother doing at an Eric Clapton concert singing, "I Shot the Sheriff"?
[19:42:24] BURNETT: Tonight, TLC saying it is quote deeply saddened and troubled by the news that one of its top reality stars molested girls when was a teenager. The network calling the situation involving Josh Duggar of "19 Kids and Counting", quote, "heartbreaking". TLC says it's pulling the show. But this isn't the first time the network has yanked a reality program due to scandal.
Brian Stelter is OUTFRONT.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There you go, baby.
BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Reality TV, amusing and disposable. But not for the characters, the real people whose lives often seems like train wrecks.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Honey, don't ramble.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm not rambling.
Kate and I have decided to separate.
STELTER: The latest, Josh Duggar, one of the 19 kids on "19 Kids and Counting."
Now, confessing that when he was 14 he molested several girls, including some siblings. His parents and police were notified sometime later but no charges for filed. The future of the TLC show now an open question. More importantly, what about the future of the family?
TLC canceled another series "Here Comes Honey Boo Boo" after the show's mother was reported to be dating a registered sex offender. Honey Boo Coo's sister Ana alleged that the boyfriend had molested her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Momma didn't believe me for a while and like she's like why would you do that, why would you do that to me. And I can't you did that. I'm like momma, he did it.
STELTER: TLC promotes itself being all about family. But one of its most famous families fell apart on screen. John and Kate Gosselin's breakup became tabloid fodder, leaving people wondering about the kids.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't want to speak for them but Maddie, go ahead. Sort of the things you said in the magazine, years later, they're good and fine. Go for it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, you just said it.
Like a lot of people think that filming like our show has damaged us. But it's only really helped.
STELTER: And in TLC's "Toddlers and Tiara" the network caused a firestorm after showing a three-year-old dressed in a costume mimicking Julia Roberts costume in "Pretty Woman."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Here comes pretty woman, Paisley.
STELTER: Paisley's mother Wendy Dickey (ph) said the costume was meant to be funny.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think there are just as many or more pedophile at the beach and the park, anywhere.
STELTER: Reality stardom cuts both ways. Consider Kim Kardashian, now a true A-list star.
[19:45:00] OPRAH WINFREY, CELEBRITY TV HOST: Would you be where you are had there not been a sex tape?
KIM KARDASHIAN, TV STAR: You know, I think that's how I was definitely introduced to the world.
STELTER: Her family now educating the world about transgender issues as Bruce Jenner films a reality show about a gender transition.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have to mourn this person I was married to for all of these years.
STELTER: Sometimes most of the drama and controversy happens off the show.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I thought this was my way of embracing my sexuality and being happy for me.
BURNETT: Brian, you know, this happened 12 years ago, in terms of Josh Duggar. And a lot of people are asking how is it possible that TLC didn't know that they were unaware, is it really possible?
STELTER: Well, they're avoiding answering that question because a lot of people don't think it is possible, Erin. The official line is they didn't know anything about the police report until "In Touch" magazine revealed it yesterday. There are a lot of unanswered questions from the television channel.
And, frankly, I think the pressure is building against them. They would love to have more seasons of this show, but will it be possible to have more seasons? I think that's a very open question at this point, given all that we know that we were not seeing on the television show.
BURNETT: Incredibly disturbing.
Brian Stelter, thank you very much.
And OUTFRONT next, Kim Jong-un's older brother spotted at an Eric Clapton concert. It turns out he's obsessed with Clapton, and he's not the only Kim sibling doing some pretty bizarre things. We have a special report on the family.
[19:50:27] BURNETT: A rare sighting of one of North Korea's Kim family, this time in London at a rock concert. Kim Jong-un's older brother spotted at an Eric Clapton concert, singing along the lyrics. Turns out he's a huge fan, he loves Clapton concerts.
And he's not the only Kim sibling running around outside North Korea, spending a whole lot money.
Brian Todd is OUTFRONT.
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): His aide brushes his hand over the camera. He's treated like a rock star.
This is believed to be Kim Jong-chul, older brother of North Korean dictator Kim Jong-un. He seemed smiling, appearing to sing along as he enjoys an Eric Clapton concern at London's Boyle Albert Hall.
Kim Jong-chu has gone to Clapton concerts all over the world, has plenty of time and money on his hands analysts say since he was passed over for the leadership position in favor of his younger brother.
KEN GAUSE, CNA NORTH KOREA LEADERSHIP EXPERT: Kim Jong-chul was not seen as being capable of dealing with the blood sport which is North Korean politics, especially as you move from the succession period to consolidation period. And unlike his brother, Kim Jong-un, he was seen as being potentially too weak.
TODD: Now, analysts say Kim Jong-chul is in a network of children of the elites who allegedly bring in money for the regime from black market deals.
Another brother who was passed over, the oldest, Kim Jung-nam, embarrassed the family in 2001 when he was caught trying to get to Tokyo's Disneyland on a fake Dominican passport.
He's said to spend his days traveling and gambling.
Which sibling has real influence?
Analyst Ken Gause says It's not Kim Jong-un's younger sister, Kim Yu- jong, though she is rising. He says there's another shadowy older sister, Kim Sol-song. She's the, quote, "purest of the pure", Gause says, because she's the only one among Kim and his siblings ever officially recognized by their grandfather, North Korea's founder Kim Il-sung.
GAUSE: She is a person who has her finger on the pulse of the regime. And she is probably helping Kim Jong-un and Kim Yu-jong in mentoring them in the relationship building that needs to be done for Kim Jong- un to be able to consolidate his power.
TODD: And to consolidate, Kim and his family run a ruthless network of spies. One former spy just told CNN North Korea has got legion of operatives inside the U.S. and South Korea. To keep them from defecting, Kim's regime is said to use what they call anchor children.
BRUCE KLINGNER, THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION: Certainly an agent who would be operating by him ore herself would have their family left behind and North Korea would use that as leverage.
TODD: Another former North Korean spy told CNN his entire family was executed back in North Korea to punish him for not fulfilling his mission.
North Korean agents who have defected have consistently said if they're caught, they're under orders to commit suicide rather than fall into enemy hands -- Erin.
BURNETT: All right. Brian Todd, thank you.
I want to go to Gordon Chang, "Daily Beast" contributor and author of the book, "Nuclear Showdown: North Korea Takes on the World."
So, Gordon, Kim Jong-chul, the brother, we just saw followed at this Eric Clapton concert like a celebrity, for real?
GORDON CHANG, DAILY BEAST CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, I mean, why would you want to follow this guy. He's from the most fascinating family on earth. I mean, they can incinerate any city on the planet and these guys are grotesque. Their family is a stain on humanity. Their grandfather started the Korean War. Their father was one sick dude who really liked very young girls and had a nasty habit of killing people with his revolver.
You know, these kids got bad hair and they got a lot of money. I mean, what's not to love?
BURNETT: So, Gordon, I mean, when you talk about the proclivities, the father with the obsession with young blonds, you know, I heard about the kind of phalanx of Swedish mistresses. There's another older brother who apparently was caught going to Disneyland on a fake passport. I know you know a lot about this. I'm not making it up. He had mistresses with him as well.
I mean, this is what they do?
CHANG: This is, of course, what they do. You know, Kim Jong-nam, the one who was caught in Japan, had two women. So, at least one of them wasn't his wife. They had a four-year-old son and they probably had a lot of counterfeit $100 bills.
Now, Kim Jong-nam was going to Tokyo Disneyland, but he also probably working with North Koreans in Japan because there's a big network there. So, this is really dirty business.
And the reason why they had a fake Dominican passport is because nobody around the world is going to recognize a North Korean passport unless you're going to Zimbabwe.
[19:55:06] BURNETT: All right. We have reported, as you know, Gordon, on Kim Jong-un executing high ranking officials including aunt and uncle maybe, right? Family members. His siblings, will he ever kill them?
CHANG: Yes, I think he probably would. Now, he won't kill Kim Jong- nam, the eldest brother, because he's in China and he just can't kill somebody on Chinese soil. And I think Beijing has probably told Pyongyang that.
Now, the one who loves to go to Clapton concerts, Jong-chul, you know, he's not a real factor. So, I don't think he's actually going to kill his older brother. But nonetheless, you know, this is a family where it is a blood sport, as Brian Todd was saying.
And, you know, Kim Jong-un has killed 400 to 500 people when you add in the junior and lower level officials. So, clearly, you know, he's gong to kill who needs to in order to stay in power.
BURNETT: Incredible, and we talk about his sisters could be the ones rising, and that raises a whole another set of questions.
Thank you very much, Gordon Chang. Talking about a family being grotesque stain on humanity.
We'll be right back.
BURNETT: This weekend, be sure to watch our global edition of OUTFRONT. It aired Saturday and Sunday on CNN International. We have some great stuff this weekend.
And thank you so much for joining us. Have a wonderful weekend and Memorial Day. Be sure to set your DVR to record OUTFRONT so you can watch us at anytime.
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