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ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT

U.S. Official: China Hits U.S. With Massive Data Hack; U.S. Officials: ISIS Encouraged Boston Suspect to Attack; Brother of Boston Terror Suspect Speaks Out; Baltimore Prosecutor Tries To Block Release of Autopsy; New Texts From Assistant Linked To Mansion Murders. Aired 7-8:00p ET

Aired June 4, 2015 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[19:00:09] ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: OUTFRONT tonight, breaking news, hacked up to four million Americans attacked. The targets handling security clearances for the nation's most highly sensitive jobs. Special breaking report coming up.

Plus, more breaking news, ISIS directly encouraging the Boston terror suspects in the days before they planned to attack and even behead police. My guests tonight, the brother of the man that police shot and killed.

And Rick Perry's big announcement jumping into an overcrowded presidential field while breaking out in a rather aggressive sweat. Let's go OUTFRONT.

Good evening. I'm Erin Burnett. And we begin OUTFRONT tonight with the breaking news. A massive attack on U.S. federal agencies. The FBI investigating a huge data hack. It's one of the largest breeches in history. Four million Americans at risk tonight. And the target terrifying. The targets actually handle security clearances and background checks for the United States most highly sensitive jobs. One official says the fear is the breach could affect every single federal agency in the United States.

Our chief national security correspondent Jim Sciutto is OUTFRONT. And Jim, I know you're breaking a lot of news on this story. You just got up the film with your sources. First, how serious is this?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's serious because it's huge. As you say, one of the biggest ever, four million employees, personal information, performance ratings, reviews, et cetera. And that of course will include employees who are in sensitive positions. It's the second time this year in fact that you've had a large data breach of this federal system by China. And it has real potential. And the belief is that a database is in effect being built that covers everything including personal information about federal employees. And when you piece all of that database together, that gives enormous power.

BURNETT: Power. And you are breaking the news that it is the Chinese government to blame. I mean that's significant because you're talking about not just Chinese hackers who may want credit card data. You're talking about the Chinese government.

SCIUTTO: No question. And this is Chinese government policy. You see it in every realm. It's personal data of federal employees. It is business data. The estimates, a loss of tens of billions of dollars to American businesses every year to data stolen by the Chinese government. It's also sensitive data, military information, intelligence information. And the thing is Erin, the U.S. government has tried a number of responses to this. President Obama raised it personally face to face with the Chinese President Xi Jinping in a summit, Sunnylands Summit in California. They've tried naming and shaming, in fact bringing criminal charges against particular members of the Chinese military for these kinds of breaches and they've also tried to put in better defenses in effect for U.S. computer systems. None of those have worked. So, it really raises the question about what you do to stop this. And what they're worried about, you know, is the possibility of tit for tat. I mean, there's talk of offensive operations here where you can make it clear to China that we could do the same to you. What they don't want to do though is start a vicious cycle of back and forth. It's a real problem is to how you start this going forward.

BURNETT: Right. You don't want to lay down and take it. But you don't want the vicious cycle. So, right now we're pretty much stop the -- choice. Thanks so much to you, Jim Sciutto.

SCIUTTO: Thank you.

BURNETT: And more breaking news, we are learning tonight that ISIS militants encouraged the Boston terror suspect to launch an attack in the United States. We're also learning that Boston police approached 26-year-old Usaama Rahim after hearing him say his good- byes to his father. They shot and killed him. Officials believe Rahim was about to attack on the day he was killed. They say possibly beheading police officers.

Alexandra Field is OUTFRONT tonight in Boston.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALEXANDRA FIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Usaama Rahim not yet buried, his family searching for answers in a death of a son accused of brandishing a military knife at officers with alleged plans to kill police. Authorities say the 26-year-old was inspired by ISIS, claims that come as a shock to his family.

KAREN, AUNT OF TERROR SUSPECT: It was no plot, there was no scheming.

FIELD: Court documents reveal he bought three military knives and investigators say he intended to attack police as early as Tuesday. That's when police stopped him in the CVS parking lot shooting and killing him after they say he approached them refusing to drop the knife.

COMMISSIONER WILLIAM EVANS, BOSTON POLICE DEPARTMENT: We averted a terrible plot. And I think it's playing out there on Tuesday morning.

FIELD: Rahim's family is calling for a thorough investigation while backing off of earlier claims conflicting with the police count of the deadly encounter captured on surveillance cameras. In the aftermath of the shooting, Rahim's brother, a former Imam in Boston took to Facebook saying Usaama was shot three times in his back at a bus stop while talking to his father. His last words, "I can't breathe."

RONALD S. SULLIVAN, ATTORNEY FOR RAHIM FAMILY: These comments resulted from information Imam Rahim received from third parties very near the time of his brother's death. These were the responses of the man whose youngest brother was just killed.

[19:05:22] FIELD: Law enforcement officials now say on the day of the shooting Usaama had in fact called his father to say good-bye. The conversation caught by investigators who had been monitoring his e-mail and phone as part of the 24-hour surveillance tactics imposed by the Joint Terrorism Task Force. Family members say they had no indication he was being watched and little explanation for the claims he was carrying that knife.

SULLIVAN: We simply don't have evidence one way or the other. And the family wants to be very careful to not engage in rank speculation.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FIELD: The Rahim family says they have plans to bury Usaama tomorrow. But tonight they were able to watch the surveillance video that was recorded in the parking lot of that CVS when Usaama was shot by police officers. That video has not been made public, it has not yet been shown to media. But Erin we have spoken to faith leaders and clergy leaders in this community who were invited to privately watch that video. They tell us from their perspective that it seems to back up the police account of the events as far as the narrative. But they say that video is shot at a great distance, not all of the details were entirely clear to them and some of them say that it does leave them with continuing questions -- Erin.

BURNETT: All right. Thank you very much, Alex. And the family just saw that video.

So, I want to bring in now Usaama Rahim's brother Ibrahim who is an imam. A very prominent figure in the Muslim community along with the Rahim family Attorney Ronald Sullivan. Ibrahim, let me start with you. I know you're grieving, you've lost your brother. Of course of what he's accused of plotting is horrific. How do you square those two things?

IBRAHIM RAHIM, BROTHER OF BOSTON TERROR SUSPECT USAAMA RAHIM: Well, I returned to Boston for three reasons, to bury my brother, to help my family grieve, to encourage the Muslim community locally and nationally to peacefully mourn with us the death of Usaama, to simply offer their prayers and to not demonstrate or disrupt the public peace in any way. And thirdly I came back to convey to the American community locally and nationally that their neighbors, my fellow Muslims and their fellow neighbors, we are not people of destruction and terror. We're their peaceful neighbors and our Muslim institutions in this country stand for peace. And that's what we advocate for as the Muslim-American community.

BURNETT: Now, I want to ask you, you know, about your brother's actions within that. I know you just had a chance to see the surveillance video. And of course Ibrahim you had posted on Facebook that your brother was shot in the back three times while on the phone with your father telling him, quote, "I can't breathe." Now, you've seen the video, do you still believe that's what happened or not?

RAHIM: Well, those were the initial facts available to me. We've made a statement through Attorney Sullivan who has clarified that that was the initial commentary based on facts that were given to me initially. And so with the development of the facts, we do understand that those wounds were not through the back. And so, we have acknowledged that fact. But the facts continue to come in and I will allow Attorney Sullivan to speak about that.

BURNETT: All right. So, not through the back. So, let me ask you. Ronald, do you believe the investigation has been fair? Obviously Ibrahim saying, you know, he initially was told his brother was shot in the back, he now says he's seen the video that that is not true.

SULLIVAN: The investigation is just beginning. Thus far the district attorney's office has been extraordinarily transparent and cooperative. That's what the family wants. We look forward to the continued investigation in that same spirit.

BURNETT: And Ibrahim, you know, you talk about Muslims wanting to be seen as people of peace in their communities. But obviously what your brother is accused of doing is the opposite of that. The chairman of the House Homeland Committee says your brother was encouraged to launch an attack by ISIS operative overseas, he was going at their behest. Do you have any awareness that your brother was in this sort of community? Does that surprise you?

SULLIVAN: Well, that's a very jilted question, almost stated as though it is a fact that that actually happened because someone said it. You know, we don't believe that that's Usaama.

BURNETT: As I said, that's what he says. So do you dispute it at this point or what?

RAHIM: Of course we dispute it. We don't know that Usaama, that to be a fact about Usaama as his relatives at all. We are a Muslim- American community. And you know, I think, really you got to start speaking more about the Muslims of America and not the Muslims in Syria who are doing bad things who don't like America. Speak about the Muslims who actually live here who love America. That's me, that's Usaama, that's the Rahim family.

[19:10:10] BURNETT: Well, let me ask you about that. Because Ibrahim, if that's you as an imam trying to be a leader in your community, if what your brother is accused of is true, it was not your brother.

RAHIM: No, he was my brother.

BURNETT: That would mean if what your brother is accused of is true, your brother was planning to behead a prominent New Yorker, your brother was planning to possibly behead police. I mean, those are horrific things.

RAHIM: If.

BURNETT: If that's true.

RAHIM: If that was true. Right.

BURNETT: So if that is true, what do you say?

RAHIM: That's a hypothetical question. You can't answer a hypothetical. Let's establish the facts. The facts are still coming in. We need more information. That's why Attorney Sullivan is here with us. We need more information.

BURNETT: Ronald, let me ask you for a little bit more information. CNN has learned that Usaama called his father and said his good-byes the morning before he was shot. Ostensibly that's part of the reason they went to apprehend him. What did Usaama's father tell you about that call?

SULLIVAN: So, we know that there was a call. We don't know the substance of that call at this point. The father is planning to participate in the investigation. But we know that he was on the telephone with his father. We simply just don't know the substance yet. As Imam Rahim says, we are still actively gathering fact, we're trying to resist speculation at this point. Everything they knew about their brother is starkly inconsistent with what has been reported. So, it's a very shocking development for them. The family, however is keeping an open mind and they're going to go wherever the evidence leads them. But they're asking that this investigation be fair and complete and thorough.

BURNETT: All right. Well I appreciate both of you taking the time tonight. Thank you very much.

SULLIVAN: Thanks so much.

BURNETT: All right. Outfront next, Baltimore prosecutor Marilyn Mosby planning to stop the release of Freddie Gray's autopsy to the public. And tonight police are asking what is there to hide.

Plus, the Duggars charging that their daughters have been harmed more by the press and the police than by their son.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHELLE DUGGAR, "19 KIDS AND COUNTING": They've been victimized more by what has happened in the past couple of weeks than they were 12 years ago. (END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: And remember when Seinfeld Susan sealed her fate with a cheap envelope? This always bothered me and that killed people off on Seinfeld. Well, tonight we find out why she got killed off.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:15:50] BURNETT: Tonight, no access. The prosecutor in the Freddie Gray case is trying to block the release of Gray's autopsy. She says she doesn't want the case tried in the public. But keep in mind, this is the same prosecutor who held a press conference to announce she was charging six officers in Gray's death, including a murder charge.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARILYN MOSBY, PROSECUTOR IN FREDDIE GRAY CASE: To the people of Baltimore and the demonstrators across America, I heard your call for no justice, no peace, your peace is sincerely needed as I work to deliver justice on behalf of this young man.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: Miguel Marquez is OUTFRONT, he's in Baltimore tonight. Miguel, that announcement was so public right in front of every camera around the world. She made those charges. But now she's the one who wants privacy. What's going on?

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well this is exactly what defense attorneys are arguing. And this is the problem with her position right now. So defense -- it gets very legal but defense attorneys asked that she be recused from the case, the venue be changed. That a lot of things happened. She had to take herself out of it basically. She responded with a simple two-page document saying I need more time to argue this because their response was so long. As part of this argument she indicates that she intends to seek a gag order for things like medical records and the autopsy results, things like CNN and the defense lawyers are trying to get. So it's becoming a very big fight. She's asking for in this document for the motion to move the venue and the motion to recuse herself from this case to be moved until after the July 2nd hearing for all six officers.

BURNETT: And as you point out, CNN is one of 19 other media outlets, Miguel, who are trying to fight this right? They don't want the gag order. They want all of the information out there. So what are the defense lawyers saying?

MARQUEZ: Well the defense lawyers are using her own very, very public words and her actions against her. So they responded to this one, the defense lawyers have now issued their own response basically saying, look, you were out there in the public, you were trumpeting this stuff from the hill, that you did this thorough investigation that you did it. You worked 24 hours a day, that you got this thing out, you had time to go to the prince concert, you had time to do an interview in vogue, you had time to do an interview on CNN. Why can't you respond to this in a timely manner, literally using her own public sort of appearances against her and arguing no deal, we want this thing heard as soon as possible -- Erin.

BURNETT: All right. Miguel, thank you very much.

And let's go straight now OUTFRONT to our political commentator Marc Lamont Hill. And the former Baltimore Prosecutor Andrew Alperstein. Good to have both of you with us.

Andrew, again, I want to disclose CNN wants this information out there, along with 19 other news organizations. You also think the public has a right to get things like medical records, like the autopsy. Why?

ANDREW ALPERSTEIN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, look, the reason that this goes on on the streets and the protests is because people feel like they're not part of the process. Concealing it and hiding it from the public is not the way to do this. Their argument, the state's argument is, well, you know we need to do this because somehow it's going to make the -- the jury is not going to know about the case. I mean, 100 percent of the jurors live in Baltimore. A hundred percent of them were savage to a curfew. They know about it. And I'm sure this case is going to wind up getting removed any way. So, the whole arguments is silly from the state in my opinion.

BURNETT: Well, there is the question of course, the defense wants it move out if they say the jury is tainted. But Mark, that's a separate issue. Let's first talk about just the disclosure.

MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Right.

BURNETT: The autopsy being a crucial piece of information.

LAMONT: Absolutely.

BURNETT: Why doesn't the public have a right for that to be released immediately?

HILL: And listen, the public doesn't have the right to know it. I think they have a right to know it at some point.

BURNETT: At some point.

HILL: Right. But I also disagree with the assertion that has disconnected from the change of venue. I think part of this is strategy. They're making the case that the public has known so much information and has access to so much news. And in good news, you know, but still news that will taint their ability to be objective. And what she' saying is hey, that's not necessarily true. I can keep that stuff at arm's length. And one example of that is that I'm going to suppress this information. So that only the prosecutor and the defense will have the discovery. So, in some sense those two things are very much connected. My point is this. The defense attorneys are saying, hey, wait a minute, we don't trust that the public can give us a fair trial. Because they keep getting information bombarded. You can't on the one hand say that and then get mad when she tries to suppress the information that might taint a jury.

[19:20:15] BURNETT: Right. And what about that point Andrew, right? They want to change the venue, they say their clients already can't get a fair trials, there's too much out there. But now they're saying, hey, please, put the rest of it out there?

ALPERSTEIN: Well, it doesn't make sense. I mean, Marilyn Mosby goes out and has a press conference and talks all about the facts that she wants and then she doesn't want the defense to talk about it. It's interesting that the defense whose the one that wants the fair trial and the one that would be tainted by the public opinion is the one that's saying, put it out there, let me see the knife, let me see the autopsy, share it with the community, bring it on.

BURNETT: Right. But they're also the ones Andrew asking for a change of venue because they say they can't get a fair trial because too much information has been put out there. I mean, both sides are talking out of both sides of their mouth.

ALPERSTEIN: Well, I mean, there's -- I agree with Marc, I mean, there's a lot of strategy that's underlying the legal arguments here. But you should, the gag order that they're asking for is so broad. It's never been done in Maryland like that. The opinion, the brief that was filed by CNN which I read today, you know, it talks about -- this would cover 4,000 police officers that wouldn't be allowed to talk to the media. I mean, it's never been done. There's no precedent for this at all.

HILL: And it's going to leak any way. There's a practical matter. It's going to lean anyway. But I do disagree with a couple of points you made. The first one is, I don't accept that the public is clamoring for this autopsy in the same way they were clamoring for an arrest or for a transparent understanding of the process. You said that people were protesting in the streets and shutting the city down because they want an information. I don't hear people on the streets saying where is the autopsy. They trust that the prosecutor's office is handling this appropriately. And so, they're actually not clamoring for this. I also sort of reject this idea that we need this information in order to have a transparent, that the public needs this information in order to have a transparent process. Again, I think it's entirely possible that we can move forward without it. And I don't accept the --

BURNETT: But the murder charge, the one murder charge is against the guy who was driving the van.

ALPERSTEIN: Yes.

BURNETT: Right? And the van is where ostensibly this injury happened.

HILL: Right.

BURNETT: So the autopsy is going to shed light on the most serious and significant charge of the whole thing. So, that's relevant. HILL: It's entirely relevant. That's why the defense has the

opportunity to read it, that's why the prosecution has an opportunity to read it. My uncle in Baltimore doesn't necessarily to read it in order for those two things to happen. And I also disagree with the assertion that she doesn't want the defense the talk about the case. The defense is entirely allowed to talk about the case just like she was. There's a huge difference between announcing charges and announcing an autopsy. I think that's very, very different.

BURNETT: Real quick Andrew.

ALPERSTEIN: Half of her first press conference was about commentary and talking to the people of Baltimore. It wasn't about the fact and the allegations in this case. And, you know, when I was a prosecutor, you got the evidence, you put it together, you gave it to the defense, with if it was strong enough to convict than you did it. And if you didn't, you didn't, so.

BURNETT: All right. Well, I appreciate both of your time. I know we're going to be talking about this a lot more. Thanks to both.

And next we're learning much more about a key figure in the D.C. mansion murders. Tonight, police now searching his car found near the murder scene for evidence and we'll tell you exactly what they found this afternoon.

And Rick Perry sweating through his second swing at the presidency trying to recover from this moment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICK PERRY (R), FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I can't -- the third one I can't. Sorry. Oops.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:27:17] BURNETT: Breaking news tonight in the D.C. mansion murders. For the first time we're learning what was said by the victim's assistant in the moments leading up to and right after that wealthy Washington family was so horrifically murdered. The Washington Post tonight has new text messages that were found on the assistant's phone. His name is Jordan Wallace and one of those messages is an exchange with a woman on the morning of the murders. According to the paper, Wallace texted the woman a picture of the $40,000 that he had dropped off at the victim's home. She replies, "Damn, I wonder how much it is." Jordan replies, "40." She writes back, "Jesus." Several hours later when Wallace realizes the Savopoulos home is on fire, he texts his boss's wife, quote, "Hey miss Amy, are you okay? If so, you need to get home. I got a call that your house is on fire." This of course raises serious questions about what the assistant knew and when he knew it since ostensibly he knew the husband was in the home and didn't text him to warn him about the fire.

Joe Johns is OUTFRONT.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOE JOHNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The personal vehicle of Jordan Wallace, driver and assistant to murdered CEO Savvas Savopoulos was recovered by police about a block away from the crime scene on the day of the fire and murders, that according to the latest search warrants. Authorities were looking for forensic and physical evidence linking Jordan Wallace to this offense, the search warrant for the vehicle said. But so far he has not been arrested nor charged. The footprint discover on the door to the Savopoulos home appears to be an important clue in the investigation into the quadruple murder in Washington, DC. According to unsealed court records, quote, "the door is broken near the lock and a shoe or boot print is visible on the exterior suggesting forced entry."

MIKE BOUCHARD, FORMER ATF OFFICIAL: Seeing a boot mark on the door would be a quick indicator to police that firemen wouldn't have done that.

JOHNS: The takeaway, that whoever killed the family and the housekeeper may have left this print as a clue. Blood found on suspect Daron Wint's shoe when he was arrested matches at least one of the four victims. Law enforcement sources tells CNN. It's unclear if police believe Wint left the imprint on the door of the Savopoulos home. He remains the lone suspect in the case but police believe he had helped.

BOUCHARD: I think there's definitely someone else but I think this shows that law enforcement is being very careful and meticulous and not rushing to judgment in locking people up just to close the case.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JOHNS: Tonight we also learned what authorities took away when they executed a search warrant on the car of Wallace. Among other personal effects, authorities say they seized a MacBook air laptop in the car as well as a backpack. As to why his car was recovered at the scene on the day of the murders, he says someone alerted him to the fact that the house was on fire -- Erin.

BURNETT: Someone. All right. Thank you very much, Joe Johns.

And now Robin Ficker, the former attorney for Daron Wint who is now representing Wint's family in this case. Also with me, our legal analyst Paul Callan.

Robin, let me start with you. You've told me that if Daron Wint was involved he was a quote bit player. Let me ask you tonight. Did Daron Wint have any contact with Jordan Wallace, the assistant?

ROBIN FICKER, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR DARRON WINT: He had no contact with Jordan Wallace. It's interesting the time of the text to the young lady showing the picture of the cash was 9:00. No bank was open before that. And then, Mr. Savapoulos texted or called Jordan Wallace the night before at 8:00 to get money. No bank was open then.

That money didn't come from the bank. It came from the office of the Iron Works Company. Lots of people knew there was a great deal of cash stashed there. Therefore, it was an insider job. That's how these deaths occurred.

BURNETT: So, Paul, let me ask you about these text messages that are very important. Robin is talking about the fact that this was sent at 9:00 a.m. exactly. So, there are some banks that open before 9:00 a.m. I'm not sure about this one. Obviously, Robin doesn't believe it was open.

But let's talk about the text. The exchange with the woman, he sent the picture of the money. She replied, "Damn". He replied, "It's $40,000". She writes back, "Jesus".

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, you know, the mystery deepens here obviously with thought that there's something suspicious about Wallace's involvement in the case because he changes his story about how he gets the money. Now --

BURNETT: Right, which police note he's changed his story completely between the first telling and the second telling.

CALLAN: If you know your boss has been kidnapped and he's being held hostage and you're bringing the money, you're going to remember how you did it. Why would you change the story unless you were involved in some way?

But now, we have him communicating with another person, we don't know her identity. And this could mean she's involved in it, he's involved in it, or I suppose there could be an innocent relationship, and that is they're both stunned -- she happens to be a friend and he's just saying that he was stunned by how much money was involved.

BURNETT: Which, of course, still leaves open the question as to why he wouldn't alert authorities then, which is obviously a big looming question.

But, Robin, you know, you keep saying that Darron Wint was a bit player. Officials have now said, we now know that traces of blood found on Darron Wint's shoe matched at least one of the victim's blood. You said your client did not murder the family. So, how would you explain that blood?

FICKER: Darron Wint was arrested one week after the deaths. The blood analysis was done two weeks after that. If they can analyze the pizza crust in one day, what took them so long? They won't mention what officers are saying that this was his blood. They won't mention what victim.

I believe they've made that up out of whole lot and we'll never see any evidence in the trial that there was actually blood of the victims on Darron Wint's shoe.

BURNETT: Why would they -- now, we have talked to a forensic scientist that said the blood would absolutely last this long. So, there's going to be any question about that. If the blood was there, they would be able to find it.

I don't understand, though, Paul, why they would lie. I don't understand that. Why?

CALLAN: Why they would lie about the blood?

BURNETT: Why the police would do what Robin is saying, would make it up out of whole cloth?

CALLAN: It makes so sense at all. Why would you pick his client to pin this on of all people? It makes absolutely no sense.

I'm just curious as to whether Mr. Picker, have you spoken to Mr. Wint about these things?

PICKER: I spoke to Mr. Wint for two hours.

CALLAN: OK, all right.

PICKER: Mr. Wint is guilty of nothing. His family believes he's guilty of nothing. He wouldn't harm another person.

CALLAN: His DNA is on pizza, his blood is on the shoe and you're saying the cops are making this up?

PICKER: I'm saying that the pizza was delivered outside, the pizza was eaten probably very quickly after it was delivered. The deaths were 12 hours later. There's a big time gap. He could have driven up to New York and back twice during that time. Just because I leave my DNA in a room at one point and a crime is committed there 12 hours later doesn't mean that I've committed that crime.

They should start looking --

CALLAN: You admit then he was in the room?

PICKER: I know who we -- I know -- no, I didn't say that.

(CROSSTALK)

PICKER: But I know who was there. I know who was there. Mr. Figueroa was there that morning, and he didn't call the police. He was recently married to Mrs. Figueroa.

BURNETT: The housekeeper.

PICKER: And he just was recently in the country. He should be a suspect.

BURNETT: All right. We have to leave it there. Of course this conversation will continue as we keep breaking more on the story.

Thanks to both of you.

And next, Rick Perry announcing for president, trying to rework his image and all anyone is talking about today is his upper lip.

And the Duggars, their names scrubbed from presidential hopeful Mike Huckabee's list of supporters and the family breaks their silence and tries to blame the media.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:38:56] BURNETT: A new Republican joins the very crowded race for president. But the launch was -- a bit wet. Former Texas Governor Rick Perry was flanked by former Navy SEALs, the brothers Marcus and Morgan Luttrell standing in front of a plane, the type he flew when he was in the Air Force. I mean, it was very impressive in all those important ways. But all of the talk today seemed to be about sweat.

Dana Bash is OUTFRONT.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RICK PERRY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I am running for the presidency of the United States of America.

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Rick Perry's reason for running, his leadership experience as the longest serving governor in Texas history.

PERRY: I have dealt with crises after crises, from the disintegration of the space shuttle to hurricanes Katrina, Rita, Ike, to the crisis at the border and the first diagnoses of Ebola in America.

BASH: On the economy, he struck a populist note.

PERRY: There's something wrong with the Dow is near record highs and businesses on Main Street can't even get a loan.

BASH: On national security, criticism of the current president.

PERRY: No decision has done more harm than the president's withdrawal of American troops from Iraq.

[19:40:03] BASH: But on social media, the buzz on Perry's rousing speech wasn't so much about what he said but what he looked like -- sweating profusely inside this sweltering airplane hangar.

ANITA PERRY, RICK PERRY'S WIFE: Welcome and thank you to a hot hangar on June the 4th.

BASH: Perry's run is a true test of America's capacity for second chances. His 2012 campaign went quickly from great hope to a punch line. From this debate --

PERRY: Education, the -- Commerce. And let's see. I can't. The third one I can't. Sorry. Oops.

BASH: To his erratic odd behavior this New Hampshire speech. PERRY: We're kind of into those slogans, man. Live free or die,

victory or death. Bring it.

He blames that and other embarrassing moment on medication for back pain and being unprepared. Since then, he's been studying hard, both on policy and performance, even working with the former head of the Royal Shakespeare Theater.

(on camera): Why did you choose that?

PERRY: I guess so my hamlet would come out right when I decide to quote Hamlet on the stage.

BASH: And I'm guessing also to avoid an oops moment.

PERRY: That would be preferable.

BASH: Perry, a former captain in the U.S. Air Force, tried to emphasize his own military service. Joining him on stage were Texas military heroes, like lone survivor Navy SEAL Marcus Luttrell and his twin brother, and Taya Kyle, the widow of Chris Kyle, whose life was depicted in the movie "American Sniper".

PERRY: When I think of Taya Kyle, I think of a brave woman who carries not just the lofty burden of Chris's legacy.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BASH: And Erin, you might ask where he stands in the now very crowded field of ten announced candidates. That's right, ten announced candidates for the Republican presidential nomination. He is not in the top tier. The top tier now is about seven candidates. He's just under, hovering around 5 percent, which if you ask the Perry people, they say that's just where they want him because they feel it's not OK to peak too early, and I think a lot of people at the top feel that way too. They're a little worried about it. So, there's a long way to go.

BURNETT: And ten is not very crowded because we all know it's going to be probably 15 or more. So --

BASH: At least five more in the next month and a half.

BURNETT: All right. Thank you very much to Dana Bash. Pretty incredible there.

All right. Next, the Duggars, defending their son against child abuse charges. Going on offense, they say they're the victims.

And now it can be told, why Seinfeld's Susan suffered her strange demise.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's awful.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:46:56] BURNETT: More fallout from the Duggar family molestation scandal. Republican presidential candidate Mike Huckabee, an outspoken supporter of the family, has now removed their endorsements from his campaign Web site.

Michelle and Jim Bob Duggar, the parents, are defending the family. They're on the offense.

Brian Stelter is OUTFRONT.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JIM BOB DUGGAR, FATHER: He was a kid. This was not rape or anything like that.

MICHELLE DUGGAR, MOTHER: All of our children received professional counseling.

J.B. DUGGAR: This information was released illegally.

M. DUGGAR: There's an agenda.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Michelle and Jim Bob Duggar responding to what they call an attack against their family and going on the offensive.

J.B. DUGGAR: Improperly touched.

STELTER: Improper touching, they say, happened a long time ago. It's the improper released of the police record that they want to focus on. Sisters Jill and Jessa, two of the girls Josh molested, told Megyn Kelly they are now being revictimized.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: People don't have a right to do this. We're victims. They can't do this to us.

MEGYN KELLY, FOX NEWS: And yet they did.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And they did.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The system that was set up to protect kids, both those who make stupid mistakes or have problems like this in their life, and the ones that are affected by those choices, it's just greatly failed.

STELTER: This famous family trying to change the narrative while their TLC series "19 Kids and Counting" remains in limbo, likely to never return.

Reputation.com vice chairman Howard Bragman says the Duggars played to their base.

HOWARD BRAGMAN, REPUTATION.COM: After they defended their family, they turned and started talking about the fact how their daughters were more victimized by the media. They felt that a lot of people in the left wing had an agenda, were out to get them for their Christian believes.

STELTER: As for TLC, it is staying silent. The family interviews were arranged by the Duggar's PR person, not the cable channel. So, is the family trying to hang on to their hit show?

"19 Kids" was winning 3 million viewers before the scandal erupted. "People" magazine says the family makes $25,000 to $40,000 per episode. That's millions overall since more than 200 episodes have been made so far.

J.B. DUGGAR: I know if the rest of our family should be punished for the act of one of our children, that something that happened 12 years ago or not. But you know, we are fine whether they film us or not. We're going to go on and live life. We're going to serve God and make a difference in the world.

M. DUGGAR: Enjoy our children and enjoy our grandchildren and continue on with life. Either way, we're at peace.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

STELTER: And this family's story is far from over. Jessa and Jill will speak in much more detail tomorrow night. At the moment, though, no plans for Josh to do the same -- Erin.

BURNETT: Of course, that's the person we need to hear from. Thank you, Brian.

And now, Dr. Charles Sophy, a Los Angeles-based psychiatrist who works with abused and sexually abused children.

Dr. Sophy, in this interview, I want to play a clip here from Jim Bob. He's explaining to Megyn what his teen son did to his four young daughters and a baby-sitter. Here's how he puts it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[19:50:02] J.B. DUGGAR: This is not rape or anything like that. This was touching somebody over their clothes. There were a couple of incidents where he touched them under their clothes, but it was like a few seconds.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: It was just a few seconds. What's your reaction?

DR. CHARLES SOPHY, PSYCHIATRIST: It's a minimization of the actual event. A violation is a violation. If you've touched someone, you've touched someone. Whether it is above or below their clothes, it is without their consent and it is a violation.

BURNETT: Now, Josh's parents say that the girls say in many cases they weren't awake and Jim Bob said so they didn't know what happened and none of them understood what happened. It really sounded like -- it sounds like an excuse. Was that what it was?

SOPHY: Exactly. Yes. I think it was a way to make themselves feel better and to stay in denial. But at the end of the day, we didn't know if they were asleep. They may have been faking. They were maybe afraid they were going to get attacked. Who knows?

But the bottom line, we don't know, they don't know. And to assume all of that, and then build a treatment around that is really faulty ways to go.

BURNETT: All right. So, you just saw Brian playing the clips, two of the sisters who were victimized also spoke to Megyn and they responded to the records about the molestation being public. Here is Jill Duggar.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JILL DUGGAR: People don't have a right to do this. We're victims. They can't do this to us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: They're saying that it is being public now that is the problem. It is not what happened to them. Is there a point to that?

SOPHY: Well, I understand what they are saying. You've got to remember these are two young teenage girls who have some private information out there about them at a time that is a critical in a young teenage girl's life. On top of that, that it reopens any wound that either wasn't healed well or treated from the past victimization. So, it's a double-edged sword and they get it both ways.

BURNETT: Is it fair, though, to say that the media, you know, shouldn't be covering this? This should be a private issue or not?

SOPHY: No. It is important to understand that there are things that parents should do in these situations, that even though they are uncomfortable. Sometimes, you have to bring your child to justice so that everyone gets what needs to be done. Everyone is protected, everyone gets treatment.

BURNETT: Certainly, the priority is pretty loud and clear was with the son, not the daughters from that family. Thank you very much. I appreciate it, Dr. Sophy.

And next, Seinfeld fans, remember George Costanza's fiancee's last digs. I do. Because isn't this supposed to be a comedy? I mean, you killed someone off. Well, we know why Susan got killed off.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BURNETT: This is one of the most memorable scenes in TV. Susan from Seinfeld dies after licking toxic wedding invitation envelopes. She keels over. Guess what? We now know why she got killed off.

Richard Roth is OUTFRONT. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's an indication of trust. We're not supposed to keep secrets from one another.

RICHARD ROTH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: But it seems the entire "Seinfeld" cast kept a secret from the actress who played Susan Ross.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lily.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, Susan.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's Lily.

ROTH: George Costanza's fiancee, they didn't like acting with her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You look like a lily.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can I help you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, we would like some wedding invitations.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Congratulations.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, thank you.

ROTH: George Costanza, played by Jason Alexander, was never happy about marrying Susan. Now, 17 years after the show went off the air, Alexander revealed to Howard Stern he couldn't work with her.

JASON ALEXANDER, ACTOR: I couldn't figure out how to play off of her.

HOWARD STERN, THE HOWARD STERN SHOW: You're being kind.

ALEXANDER: No, her instincts for doing a scene where the comedy was and mine were always misfiring.

ROTH: It's hard to tell on screen there was any problem.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't know honey, what do you want to get? I want you to get anything you want get, because I love you so much, you want you to be happy.

ROTH: Alexander said in the interview that the actress, Heidi Swedberg, was a wonderful girl but after three episodes together, Alexander said he got a call from Larry David.

ALEXANDER: Larry calls me up at the beginning of the season and says, "Good news, I got a great arch for you this season, you're going to get engaged". And I said, "Oh, it's great. Who am I going to get engaged to?" He said, "Susan". And I went, "Oh great! Who is playing George?" Because it was like such a disaster.

STERN: Ahhh!

ROTH: And, apparently, it wasn't just Alexander, who says Julia Louise-Dreyfus who played Elaine didn't like working with her either.

ALEXANDER: Julia actually said, "I know! It's just don't you just want to kill her." And Larry went, "Kabang!!!"

ROTH: So, Larry decided to kill her off.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She's -- gone.

ROTH: Susan is gone, but not Heidi, who is now a full time musician in L.A. teaching ukulele classes. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

Alexander is apologizing today on social media saying, "Oh, dear God, leave Heidi alone. I'm so mad at myself for retelling this story in any way that would diminish her."

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How would you not realize how stupid. You are a stupid, stupid man.

ROTH: Richard Roth, CNN, New York.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's just terrible.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BURNETT: She gets the last laugh, after all the ukulele story is pretty darn cool.

Thanks so much for joining us.

"AC360" begins now.