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Dylann Roof Reportedly Sought to Ignite Race War; Family of Shooting Victim Speak Out. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired June 19, 2015 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN: Our coverage continues with CNN's Don Lemon. Don.
DON LEMON, CNN TONIGHT SHOW HOST: Anderson, thank you very much. An amazing scene here tonight, emotional day here. It is Charleston, the end of an emotional and dramatic day. This is CNN tonight I'm Don Lemon.
The grieving family members of nine people massacred at the Emanuel AME Church right behind me. They are now speaking out. Relative after relative showing extraordinary courage addressing Emanuel, officials say has confessed to killing their loved ones Wednesday night after spending an hour and Bible study with them. That man is Dylann Roof, blank face and appearing via remote from a Charleston jail.
Tonight, we're going to talk to two brothers who can't believe themselves to call their sister slain. They don't want to call her a victim. But I want to begin with what's happening right here on the ground, right here on streets of Charleston, right in front of this church. And I want to go to Sunny Hostin now. We have been together all day, Sunny, walking the streets. We went to the library for one of the victims. They held a service of sorts. But just to watch the crowds. I had a feeling that it was going to build on a Friday night. Everyone was coming and it so peaceful. And it's such a diverse crowd.
SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN TONIGHT: It's such a diverse crowd. You know, I've been around communities as a prosecutor -- communities that have experienced tragedy and sadness and grief. I can tell you, I've never seen a community react this way with forgiveness, with hope, coming together like this. But everyone has certainly in this town at least from my sense, Don, has really been affected by this. I had the opportunity to speak to a Charleston police officer. And he was one of the first responders. He was almost in tears describing what he saw into the church and saw the bodies of elderly people having being shot.
But he still had a message of hope.
HOSTIN: He still said that this town would come together and that is just remarkable.
LEMON: And when people say thank you for being here. We realize we are here because of this tragedy. But they say thank you for being here and thank you for being in front of the church tonight, and today, and telling the story.
HOSTIN: Yes, I've also been told thank you for being my voice. It's just been a remarkable evening. So many people are still out there.
LEMON: Yeah, so many people. I think it is going to gather on throughout the evening. It will be that way this weekend as several different services and several different events are planned throughout the weekend here. You know, now, as we look at what's happening here in front of the church, they're holding hands as we see, there's a prayer circle going on right now. We want to tell you what happened in the courtroom today. That hearing opening up really with shock and outrage -- shock and outrage. Emanuel's James B. Gonzell, Jr., expressing sympathy for the family of the man charged with murdering nine people. I want you to listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have victims, many of them. But we also have victims on the other side. There are victims on this young man's side of the family. Nobody will have ever thrown them into the whirlwind of events that they have been thrown into. We must find it in our hearts that at some point in time, not only to help those that are victims, but to also help his family, as well.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: And the judge then directly addressing the accused shooter who appeared live via video link for security reasons. Actually, it is standard procedure here. Speaking publicly for the first time, Roof didn't even say 10 words. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Roof, is your address 10428 Garnsferry Road in Eastover, South Carolina. Is it?
DYLAN ROOF: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is your age?
ROOF: Twenty one.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're 21 years. Are you employed?
ROOF: No, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're unemployed at this time?
ROOF: Yes, sir. (END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: But it was the words -- the words of the family members that moved us all today, everyone as they poured out their anger and they poured out forgiveness as well.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They took something very precious away from me. I will never talk to her ever again. I would never be able to hold her again. But I forgive you. Have mercy on your soul.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, I forgive you. My family forgives you. We would like you to take this opportunity to repent. Give your life to the one who matters the most. Christ.
FELICIA SANDERS: We welcome you Wednesday night in our Bible study with open arms. You have killed some of the most beautiful people that I know. Every fiber in my body hurts. And I'll never be the same. Tywanza Sanders is my son, but Tywanza was my hero. Tywanza was my hero. But as we say in the Bible study, we endured (ph) you, but may God have mercy on you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everyone's plea for your soul is proof that they lived and loved and their legacies will live in love. So hate won't win.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I ain't noticed that I am very angry. For one thing, the pain has always joined in and our family with is that she taught me that we are the family that love built. We have no room for hate. So we have to forgive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So as you can see, we're in the crowd now in front of the church. And people are singing this Little Light of Mine. Right behind me is the prayer circle that they have assembled here, members of the church and members of the community. And what's really important here is as you see people from all different ethnicities and all different backgrounds here. And as we continue to listen to this, I want to get to some what has happened -- what has been happening here, and that is CNN's Martin Savidge. Martin has been following this story all day. Martin was actually at the courthouse during that hearing. Martin, take us inside. Tell us what happened.
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, it's very, very remarkable. Everyone knows by now it is a hugely emotional scene inside that courtroom. But the Roof family also has put out a statement tonight, and I just want to read it to you. This is coming from the Roof family and it's the first one that they really put out since this horrible ordeal began. And they say words cannot express our shock, grief and disbelief as to what happened that night. We are devastated and saddened by what occurred. We offer our prayers and sympathy for all those impacted by these events. Our thoughts and prayers are with the families and friends of those killed this week. We have all been touched by the moving words from the victims' families, offering God's forgiveness and love in the face of such horrible suffering. Again, that is the family statement of Dylann Roof's family.
And again, they obviously saw and heard what transpired in that hearing today. And so, let's talk about some of the other details that came out as a result of the hearing because immediately after it was completed, then we received the arrest warrants. And those had details, some of it, graphic and shocking. For instance, what was revealed there was that the victims inside the church were shot multiple times. But there again, there was more also coming forward about the Roof family. For instance, when the surveillance video was put up, the authorities had no idea who this person was. They began to receive a phone call from the father of Dylann Roof then from his uncle and then later CNN was told even his sister called to identify Dylann Roof and say who he was and that got police immediately on its trail.
So even his own family began calling the authorities to say that is him.
And then lastly, we learned from these documents, something we already knew, but now confirmed by the authorities was that even as Dylann Roof was leaving, after all the carnage he created, he finally was still using racial (inaudible) as he walked out the door. The hatred was still within him as he left. Don.
LEMON: Martin Savidge. Martin, thank you very much for that information. We appreciate that. So, listen, we -- I just want to talk to -- it is important that we just talk to people. We haven't heard as much as we should have from -- as we should be hearing from the community in front of the folks here. You have something, Deliza (ph)?
DELIZA HUDGESON (ph): Deliza Hudgeson.
LEMON: Deliza (ph), this is your church home, right?
HUDGESON (ph): Yes, this is my church home. It is.
LEMON: Why is everybody's out here tonight?
HUDGESON (ph): Everybody is out here because they are sad. And they're sad and they're shocked about what happened over the past week. And we are so in morning as to what happened. And we want the world to know that Charleston, South Carolina needs to the world and we need to shed light on the racism that goes on Charleston, South Carolina. So we thank everybody today for the prayers and for being here and lifting us all up in prayer.
LEMON: How are you holding up?
HUDGESON (ph): I am saddened. LEMON: Look right here. How are you holding up?
HUDGESON (ph): I am very saddened by what's going on and what happened. And this is not ordinary. It is abnormal for such a thing to happen, and I'm lost for words many times over.
HUDGESON (ph): And so much grief and so much pain.
LEMON: People have been asking is there going to be church here. I think this is church right now.
HUDGESON (ph): Yes.
LEMON: This Sunday. But this is church right now.
HUDGESON (ph): Yes.
LEMON: Everyone here needs this.
HUDGESON (ph): Yes, they do. They do. We worship here on Sundays. My grandmother grew up in this church. My mother grew up in this church.
LEMON: Let him go and then look at this. Go ahead. Your grandmother...
HUDGESON (ph): And everyone grew up in this church. And I'm just so saddened by what happened. And we will never see our Pastor, Pastor Pinkney again. And that saddens us very much so.
LEMON: Can I talk to you, brother? What's your name?
WESELY (ph): Wesely.
LEMON: A lot of people are wondering -- you can stay Deliza (ph), if you want. A lot of people are wondering how the families today in court -- how can they forgive so quickly?
WESELY (ph): That's a good question. I'm going to be honest with you. I can't give you -- I don't know. What I can say and shine a little light on it is it's -- you know, the time (inaudible). I know they're very good. They are all Christians. They have just a strong faith base. But you know (inaudible) quickly, that's good question. I know that they'll have a strong faith, so that's probably reason.
LEMON: Can I talk to you, ma'am? Why did you come up?
ALEXANDRA HEPBURN: I came out to support my community. I wasn't personally here when it happened. But I feel -- I would love to support the community. I came out here to support the community and to just bring change because it is really needed here.
LEMON: What's your name?
HEPBURN: Alexandra Hepburn.
LEMON: Alexandra. The community needs its healing. When I came out earlier, I said, you know, this place is going to become filled with people tonight because everyone was showing up with flowers and candles. Why did you -- why do you think so many people are showing up?
HEPBURN: I feel like people need to come together to heal. And our community definitely needs healing and this is kind of like a therapy for some people because coming together, loving everyone is healing.
LEMON: I asked the gentleman just before (inaudible) right here, the family members were in court today and a lot of them said you know I forgive him. I want God to forgive you. I forgive him. It's only been two days, some people are wondering how is that possible.
HEPBURN: You will have to forgive to -- not necessary forget, but just to be able to move on and accept that it happened. Don't forget that it happened. But forgive -- forgiveness is the deepest form of above. And God taught us all to love our neighbors.
LEMON: Thank you very much. Thank you very much. You want to say something? What's your name?
JAVA (ph): Java (ph).
LEMON: What do you want to say? Why are you out here?
JAVA (ph): I'm out here because I want the governor and mayor of Charleston to know that if you want to really support these families, support agendas that stop pushing the gentrification here in Charleston, support agendas that support the people of Charleston.
LEMON: Diversity in the communities who live there.
JAVA (ph): Right, right, right. Stop spending federal dollars here in Charleston that don't support the poor people of Charleston and the black people of Charleston.
LEMON: You know, that happens in every city -- many cities around the country. But the whole world is watching you guys, what do you want people to know about Charleston?
JAVA (ph): I want people to know that racism started -- it has history in Charleston and it has to end here in Charleston. And we have to hold our legislators accountable. We can sing all night. They can (inaudible) with us, but we are going to start pushing legislation that stops this ideology that's deeply rooted here in this state and in this country. That's the message that we want to send.
LEMON: Thank you very much. Very eloquently said. And so, again, we are going to be out here throughout this hour with the people who are here, the people who are forming a circle out here. We're singing old sometime hymns that many grew up in church with. We're also going to talk about -- you know, this woman talked about racism. She said it has a history here, but it has to end here. One thing they consider to be part of that legacy, part of that legacy of hate and racism is a confederate flag. Why is it still flying here in South Carolina? We'll be right back.
LEMON: Back here now live in Charleston, South Carolina, in front of the Emanuel AME Church here -- that horrific event happened just two nights ago. I'm here with the folks who are here, and they are singing songs, old spirituals. And they say they are going to be out here all night. So we are going to continue to follow this for you live. I don't want to disturb these guys because they are the ones that are really -- the heart of this, the heart and the heart of this keeping everyone warm and everyone -- you know, in a good spirit here.
There was a vigil earlier that was held as well here in South Carolina. There are several different things that have been (inaudible). I am going to go in the crowd throughout this hour and talk to some people. Can I talk to you, guys? Are you from South Carolina?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm from New York City.
LEMON: You're from New York City. Why did you come out here?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are just coming here for a visit coincidentally, so we didn't come down for this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But we're here to pay our respect and see the human spirit can't be squashed.
LEMON: It's amazing to see that such a horrific event that happened, and all of these people who are coming out from everywhere. You had to come out here, and you don't even live here.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yeah, yeah, it's important.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's important to be involved and to take a stand.
LEMON: Do you think this shows that -- that we won't let racism will not prevail or an evil active hate prevail?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Absolutely.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Human spirit cannot be squashed.
LEMON: You want to talk me in? Where are you from?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm from Charleston, South Carolina.
LEMON: What's your name?
ZALARIE ESTHER WASHINGTON (ph): My name is Zalarie Esther Washington (ph). You look gorgeous. Thank you for coming to speak -- to speak to us.
WASHINGTON: Thank you. I wanted to meet you in person.
LEMON: Why are you here?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, I would like to be a part of the community. And I'm very interested in what's going on and I wouldn't want to miss this moment for nothing in the world.
LEMON: This is help? How does this help?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How did this what?
LEMON: How does this help?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It helps because sitting in the house is very depressing, so I wanted to get out and be a part of the community and just let people know that I care.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, it helps. Breathing.
LEMON: So for people who are watching us around the country -- around the world really because we are simulcast all over the world, what should they know? What can they do to help?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. They can moments like this to really get out and start voting for certain things. So maybe just meeting like this on a monthly or weekly basis, and start speaking about the issues like this. Because you know this is a deeply rooted issue. This ain't anything that just started today. This goes way back. And I feel like when you get out and speak about it and -- you know communicate together, maybe things will change.
LEMON: You're nodding your head, why?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I live in Newton in Connecticut. I taught in a school two miles away. What are we supposed to tell our children if they can't feel safe in a house of worship, if they can't feel safe in the school, if they can't feel safe -- sorry.
LEMON: Go ahead. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If they can't feel safe anywhere, a mall, anywhere, our children needs some sense of community that know that they're safe.
LEMON: You said you live in Newtown.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I live in Connecticut. My school my three miles from Newton when those children were killed and my co-teacher's son was the (inaudible) FDI agent in there.
LEMON: Oh, God. And do live here now?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I do and I love it.
LEMON: And now this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yeah.
LEMON: What's going on do you think?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: People don't listen to people. They knew that child was sick. And his father gives him a gun?
LEMON: Well, his father is now saying he didn't give it. He got it with his own money.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Come on.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Come on. Just a waste of wonderful lives.
LEMON: Yeah. Wait a minute, my main question is -- and listen, I think I'm a big person, but I don't know if I'm a big enough person to forgive someone a day or two after. Listen, I commend the loved ones.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.
LEMON: How does that happen?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, those are God-fearing people. And just take for example, today, that really pissed me off because I watched CNN more than I do the local channels because you were all bringing things on and the local channels I turn it off (ph). And the way the judge opened the case this morning, I thought it was despicable.
LEMON: You were watching during that moment?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I did.
LEMON: I think most people get that. It's about forgiveness. The family is probably going through some pain, what have you, but it was not the right moment.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was not the right moment. I feel like -- people are so used to having their way when it's time -- you got to know when to speak in the right moment. And the thing that the judge today was not called for.
LEMON: You turned a lot of people off. Did you see that moment?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Apparently not.
LEMON: You didn't. Did you see that moment? Did anyone see the moment when the judge today -- no.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Awful.
LEMON: How are you doing? Why are you out here?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I care for all the nine people who died.
LEMON: Who are you out here with?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My mom.
LEMON: Your mom is out here. Where is she?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She is back there.
LEMON: Thank you. Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You're welcome.
LEMON: We've going to continue on here on CNN and I have to tell you -- you know, it's a break from our show what we had planned to do. But I do believe it's important to hear from the people here in Charleston, South Carolina. And I think that they need to vent and they want their voices heard when it comes to this. And they're very upset about the way that things have been handled. They're upset about what the judge did today in an appropriate moment. But they're angry also about that flag. We're going to talk about that confederate flag. One person said to me today -- what did you say?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We got to talk about that flag. We've really got to talk about that flag. That flag is dividing us. It is separating us. And we cannot allow the separation. We can't even afford the separation. So we're going to have to do something about that flag.
LEMON: Why do you think it's still up there?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, the powers that be are still in place. And we the people must speak louder than the powers that be. And I've heard that every flag was supposed to come down, right?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Half-staff. We need to find out if they do that half-staff.
LEMON: They did not today.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my God. It has to come down. LEMON: We're going to continue our conversation about the site. Are these your little girls?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My nieces.
LEMON: They're beautiful.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I bring them everywhere because they need to learn now. Train up a child. How? Hello and they will not depart.
LEMON: We're going to talk to you, ma'am. I've got to get to a commercial break, but I promise I'll talk to you. We'll continue on here in Charleston. Don't go anywhere. We'll be talking to the people here in the crowd. We'll be right back with our breaking news coverage.
LEMON: We'll get back in the crowd in just moments. We're going to get back to Charleston, our breaking news coverage. Dylann Roof -- Dylann Roof showing absolutely no emotion in his first court appearance. It was via video link today after being charged with nine counts of murder -- nine counts of murder in the massacre at Emanuel AME Church. He appeared on camera via video link.
And we are learning much more about him now. Joining me now, CNN's Brian Todd. Brian has been looking into what's going on tonight. He is in Charleston, South Carolina with us as well. So, Brian, you've been speaking with people all day who know Dylann Roof. So what are you hearing? What are you learning about him?
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Don, we've been speaking to one man in particular, Joey Meek. He has been a friend of Dylann Roof for some years. They knew each other in middle school. They fell out of touch for a few years and then they reconnected recently, and Joey Meek says that Dylann Roof showed some behavior in recent weeks that was very disturbing to him including some very violent ideas about provoking tension between the racists. Here is what he had to say about that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOEY MEEK, FRIEND OF DYLANN ROOF: I didn't believe him whenever he said he wanted to do something crazy.
[22:30:03] I didn't believe him but -- and he wanted segregation. He wanted a race war for it. He wanted to be white with white, and black with black. He said there was a six month plan but he didn't say any specific details. It's just -- I mean, he had it in his mind and he didn't really let anybody know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Meek says there was other bizarre behavior that Dylann Roof exhibited in recent weeks. He said that Roof wanted Meeks to video tape him burning the American Flag, Meeks refused to do that. Also Meek says that Dylann Roof wanted to get a dagger tattoo placed on his neck, Don, so some very bizarre behavior. He talked about race wars mostly when he had been drinking, Don.
DON LEMON, CNN TONIGHT HOST: Yeah, Bryan, everyone is interested in that gun and how he got it, and what that was all about. Did Joey tell you anything about Dylann's gun?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He did tell us about the gun. And I'll with how he got it in one moment. But what he first told us was that, at one point when Dylann Roof was talking about a race war, Meek took the gun from him, and kept it for a few hours hidden from him. Then he decided he didn't want to be caught with what would may be perceived as a stolen gun. He didn't wan to be accused of stealing a gun from him. So he put the gun back in Dylann Roof's trunk. And what a fateful decision that was. Now, on how he got the gun. It's very interesting. There seemed to be a dispute within Dylann Roof's family over the purchase of a gun. Take a listen to what Joey Meek had to say about that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MEEKS: They didn't want Dylann to have this gun.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why not?
JOEY MEEKS: I have no clue. I mean his parents know him better. It's just an instinct his parents had. His parents gave him the cash for it, for his birthday in April. And they both split the price of the gun in cash and gave it to Dylann to go buy the gun and put it in his name.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dylann Roof's family has not so far responded to what Joey Meeks said about all of this. But the Roof Family did Don, issued a statement, a short time ago this evening. Saying "Words cannot express our shock, grief and disbelief as to what happened that night, we have all been touched by the moving words from the victims' families, offering god's forgiveness and love in the face of such horrible suffering." The Roof Family issuing that statement tonight, expressing their condolences to the victim's families but not really responding to any of what Joey Meeks said tonight, Don.
LEMON: Bryan Todd, thank you very much. I appreciate that. I want to bring in now Psychologist, Xavier Amador, he is with the LEAP Institute. And we're going to talk about here exactly what does it mean when it comes -- is it -- how do you assess people like this? Dr. Amador, you've assessed so many killers, and I want to know what you think about Dylann Roof's lack of reaction today. Now here's what -- watch it and then we'll talk about it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, and Dylann, (Inaudible) but I forgive you, and have mercy on your soul. It hurts me, it hurts a lot of people. May god forgive you, and I forgive you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So Dr. Amador, I need to preface your reaction before I get your reaction, but saying that he could not see the courtroom. He can only hear people in the courtroom. So it appeared though he had zero emotion. What do you make of that?
XAVIER AMADOR, LEAP INSTITUTE PSYCHOLOGIST: Before I tell you what I make of that, I have to say something. Watching the coverage throughout the day, watching Anderson Cooper's 360, I've heard many anchors and guests say we should not be focusing any attention on this young man. The fact is he's obviously not relishing any attention. He's obviously not celebrating a hate crime that's gone well, if you will, this horrific crime. We need to understand, and we need to be able to explain why he did what he did, not only for this case but for the future. And in order to prevent things like this from happening. So I just want to make that comment before I make any comment about Dylann Roof. Four possibilities real quickly, he could be either in shock, he could be cold and uncaring, right, a racist who really doesn't care about what he's done. He could be following his lawyers' instructions. Every defense attorney I've worked with tells the defendant, do not respond, do not look sad, and do not smile, crying, you'll be called manipulative. Or he could be -- another possibility on the table, given what's emerging about his childhood, emerging about his belief systems, he could be mentally ill. This could a loss of affect, or at least four possibilities there. But it's definitely not somebody who's looking for the limelight, so far. He's not sitting there with a smug, happy expression on his face. He's not -- like Zacarias Moussaoui, I'm bought back to the 9/11 trial here in New York City. When Zacarias Moussaoui was shouting out into the courtroom, death to America as -- I don't care that your husband died in the towers. None of that happened and could have happened.
LEMON: So let's talk about the victims though before from that same hearing, the victims of violent crime and terrorism, when you hear family members immediately forgive, is that typical?
AMADOR: Well I'll tell you what's typical in death penalty trials, and I've worked on about 50 death penalty cases, the prosecution typically calls victims for victim impact statements during the sentencing phase. That's usually when we hear from the families of victims. So it's on the prosecutorial side, so these are people who are still angry and hurt, and distraught. During the Zacarias Moussaoui trial, I want to bring people back in time to the trial in the mid-2000's, the prosecution victims were all angry and hurt and upset and their lives they described were tattered. Because they had not forgiven, they were full of hate. The defense did something very unique. They put on victims as well, families who had also lost sons, daughters, husbands, children in the towers. They described the same level of pain as the prosecution victim witnesses, the same level of immediate anger, but they talked about healing. They talked about forgiveness. And so I'm not in any way surprised by the forgiveness. Prison -- there's a prison here that those family members are avoiding. And that prison is the prison of hate. So people are saying these are god-fearing people, I don't know if they're god- fearing or god-loving people. But certainly they have a simple wisdom that Martin Luther King had, that Gandhi had, that Nelson Mandela, that you fight racism, and hate with compassion and forgiveness.
LEMON: Some say that he really fits the stereotype of men who commit mass murders. He's white, he's young, and he's a loner. But then I hear others saying why is it that whenever one these -- a white kid or a white man commits a crime like this, that it's always mental illness and it's not that he's -- I want to bring CNN's Sonny Hostin, who is our Legal Analyst, Former Federal Prosecutor as well. And Dr. Amador, I know that is something that sticks in Sonny's craw because you people can just be evil and racist and bigoted in this situation.
SONNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I think that's right. I was very surprised that the initial reaction to so many people was this kid must me mentally ill. Well guess what, I prosecuted many, many people. I prosecuted bad people that are just simply evil, that just commit crime that are filled hate. And they were not mentally ill. No history of psychiatric care and in this case, we haven't heard any history of psychiatric care. So isn't it possible, isn't it possible that Dylann Roof is just a bad egg? Isn't it possible that he is just filled with hate and he is just a bad person?
LEMON: Dr. Amador? Is that possible?
AMADOR: It's absolutely possible. It's possible -- of course it's possible that he's filled with hate and he has done these horrific things and that he has a personality that leaves him without any compassion or empathy. And it's also possible -- sorry Sonny but that he has a mental illness. I've worked on many death penalty cases, I've evaluated people who have committed multiple homicides, who are mentally ill, and who are mentally ill. We don't have to choose and we need to find out what happened. And there should not be rush to judgment here. Because a rush to judgment further divides everybody who's affected by this. And it's not just the victims' families, but also -- and it's not only Charleston, it's everybody around the country and around the world frankly. This is a horrific crime and it brings us back to the terrorism of racism. And we need to think about what we say before we throw out generalizations like -- this can't be mental illness, he's just evil. Or this mental illness, he's not evil, we don't know yet.
LEMON: I don't think that Sonny is saying it's an absolute and that the two are mutually exclusive. She's just saying that it is a possibility.
HOSTIN: The point is that everyone keeps on saying that he must be mentally ill, well I'm here to say that I prosecuted people that are just simple evil.
LEMON: All right. That's going to have to be last word. Thank you very much. Let me come right back. The shootings here in Charleston, South Carolina right here at the AME Church behind me. Targeting blacks, chilling really, and investigators say Dylann Roof told them, he hoped to start a race war. Is it any wonder that some African- Americans say they don't feel safe in this country?
LEMON: Back now live in Charleston, officials say that Dylann Roof's motive for killing people here -- Dylann Roof's motives of killing nine people at the Emanuel AME Church Wednesday night, was absolutely chilling. He reportedly told them that he wanted to start a race war. Is it any wonder that some African-Americans say they don't feel safe in this country? Joining me now, Montel Williams, TV Host and Activist, and also Mr. Joe Madison, Host of the Joe Madison Show on Sirius XM, thank you gentleman. Joe, I'm tired of doing shows like this, are you?
JOE MADISON, THE JOE MADISON SHOW ON SIRIUS XM HOST: I'm tired of doing shows like that. We were in North Charleston not too long ago because of the Walter Scott case, 400 people showed up St. Peter's AME Church. And the same attitude, I have to commend the people of Charleston and North Charleston. They are a unique group of people down there, very unique.
LEMON: Yeah. As someone as you guys have been listening, someone said tonight that there is a history of racism here. And it should have to end here. Montel, this shooter, alleged shooter, alleged killer really, he said was looking to start a race war. So what do you think of that? But he failed miserably here, because look at all the people who have shown up and are together here.
MONTEL WILLIAMS, TV HOST, ACTIVIST: Don, I'm going to tell you -- I am honestly so proud to be an American. When I -- (Inaudible) of this country arguably for 22 years, in hopes that America would respond this way, the same way responded back in 1963, using the terror of a bombing of a church that killed three little girls, using that to be the catalyst for a movement that really was unstoppable. Right now what's happening right there in South Carolina, is going to happen across this country, because Americans, have said enough. You heard the conversations and all the excuses being made for this young man, let's understand that everybody in this country gets it. He was a radicalized separatist. As much as we would call any other terrorist a radicalized whatever term we use, that's what he was. And America is seeing that. And I want to say something about that Doctor was on, saying something to you earlier, about let's not rush the judgment about whether or not this is a psychological problem. No, let's rush to judgment, why? Why did they not say anything like that about three weeks ago, when Ali Shukri was arrested by our FBI, because he was plotting to recruit people to overthrow America through ISIS. Now on our own territory, we have radicalized separatist, who have taken this to the next level. And these guys are -- let me tell you, if we're worried about Dylann Roof, you should understand that there well over 1,600 websites up there right now, giving information to more Dylann Roof's to attempt to do same thing. But am I afraid? Hell no Don, why, because look what you see behind you. Every race man, come on, we got to be excited about this.
LEMON: I want to get to Joe, because Joe, you're listeners are calling in and they're saying that they are afraid. That's real raw emotion and fear out there from people of color.
MADISON: But don't confuse fear with paralysis. They're talking about fear, but they're action. And let me tell you something, I agree with Montel. Let's the take the Boston situation, my goodness, where was all the psycho analysis that was going on. He was immediately turned a terrorist. And by the way, Mr. Roof killed more people than the Boston Bomber did, and so I absolutely with that. The second thing is that, you know, here's what has to happen. Elected officials in this country better catch up with the people of this country, because the reality is, we have to take this moment. And we must say, white America must say to their children, that we will not tolerate in our -- at our dinner tables, we will not tolerate it in our private company, this racist mentality that permeates in this country. This is a -- now is the time to sit down at dinner tables, and when you hear a relative say something that's racist, you call them on it, but most important of all, elected officials better catch up with the American people.
LEMON: Hang on Montel. I want to first talk about this, because this is really -- this has caused a lot of trouble here, this right here.
LEMON: And it hangs on the grounds of the statehouse. There is so much anger about this flag. What do you think?
WILLIAMS: Hey, but I got to tell you this time Joe, we know for a fact that the city of South Carolina painted themselves into a corner because the flag was taken off the statehouse, and the deal was made that they need a 2/3 majority to remove it from this place of honor that it's sitting in. So instead of just focusing in on that flag, I want to go back to something that Joe said, if we keep listening until you put them on, there have been individual after individual, after individual were friends -- supposedly friends of Dylann who keep saying that they didn't think he was that bad, but he told them directly that he had a plan to start a race war. This to me sounds, as if you're trying to overthrow our government. And again, I go back to the start of -- that's terrorism, and because of that, we should focus on people like that. But what we have to do, and Joe was so right, all these same people who heard him say things should've called somebody and told them look at this guy.
LEMON: Joe, I got ten seconds left.
LEMON: I thought you wanted to get in on this. MADISON: Look, Montel said it. The flag represents what, dividing
this country, taking this country apart. That sucker needs to be in a museum. And by the way, the governor has the ability to issue -- she can issue an executive order and do just that, do it, do it. It's ridiculous.
LEMON: People here have been saying, it's kin to swastika. Would you display a swastika or flag over the state capital?
LEMON: I got to go, I got to run. We're almost at the end of the show. When we come right back -- thank you, appreciate it. When we come right back, the brothers of one woman who lost her life during bible study, talk about they can't bring themselves to call her a victim right now. But first, the New Yorkers moving tribute to all nine people who died at the Emanuel AME, it's symbolized by the nine birds flying above the church (AUDIO GAP). We'll be right back.
LEMON: I want to forward to you now some breaking news. It's out of upstate New York, it's about the manhunt for a pair of killers who broke out of prison two weeks ago and remain on the run. Tonight, a correctional officer has been placed on administrative leave, that word from state officials who say the action was taken as part of the ongoing investigation into the breakout. We'll continue to update you on that story. But I want to get back now to the shooting here in Charleston. One of the victims, Cynthia Hurd was baptized at Emanuel AME and was a member for all her life. She died just days before her birthday. I talked to her brothers, Malcolm and Melvin Graham, Jr.
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LEMON: She was to about to have a birthday.
MELVIN GRAHAM JR., CYNTHIA HURD'S BROTHER: Yes, it's Sunday. I (Inaudible) but we were riding together, we were crying. When I think about my sister, I do cry sometimes, because I love her, and I miss her. And I'm going to soldier on. And I'm going to live my life so that she can be proud of me. She's a Christian and she's not a victim. And I just retreated to call her that. She's more than that. She's a Christian, she's my sister, she's my best friend, she's my confidant, and she loved this community. She loved her family, she loved being a librarian. She loved living. And so she's not a victim, she's a Christian and she should be celebrated.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Very beautiful, strong family. Our thoughts and prayers are with them. Hundreds are flooding the streets, around Emanuel AME tonight. Earlier today, an amazing scene as the crowd sings Amazing Grace. Take a listen.
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