Return to Transcripts main page
ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT
Jeb Bush: Trump's Immigration Plan Is Not Realistic; Donald Trump: Undocumented Immigrants "Have to Go"; Donald Trump Reveals New Details In Plan to Defeat ISIS; Amazon Fires Back After Scathing Workplace Critique. Aired 7-8:00p ET
Aired August 17, 2015 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[19:00:08] JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: OUTFRONT tonight, Republicans firing back at Donald Trump's immigration plan some calling it gibberish. And saying no one thinks a wall at the border will actually work.
Plus, a new report calls the Amazon a brutal workplace. Is the world's biggest retailer also its worst place to work?
And 54 people feared dead after a jetliner crashes. Is the high demand for cheap air travel behind the spate of Asian air disasters? Let's go OUTFRONT.
Good evening. I'm Jim Sciutto in for Erin Burnett. And OUTFRONT tonight, Trump gets specific outlining his immigration plan for first time, but his fellow republican presidential candidates were quick to pounce slamming the GOP front-runner.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I appreciate the fact that Mr. Trump now has a plan, if that's what it's called, but I think that the better approach is to deal with the 11 million people here illegally in a way that is realistic.
LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Donald Trump's eight-page plan is absolute gibberish. It is unworkable.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: In Trump's 1900-word policy paper, he calls, among other things, for the deportation of 11 million undocumented immigrants including children born to undocumented immigrants on U.S. soil. According to the 14th Amendment of the Constitution in place since 1868, those children are American citizens.
Senior Washington House correspondent Jeff Zeleny is OUTFRONT tonight. So, Jeff, Trump rising in the polls, but many questioning whether that will translate into votes once those primaries start. You were on the trail with him this weekend. You've been there for days. What are voters telling you?
JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jim, it's interesting. I can tell you that voters are intrigued. Republicans are but also independent voters who have never participated in this process before in Iowa. They're intrigued by his plain spoken talk, his anti-Washington sort of get it done kind of a rhetoric. But Jim what I also was sort of struck by is that voters want to hear more from him. Donald Trump said over the weekend that reporters are asking for his policies more than voters are. That's not true necessarily with some of those early state voters, those activists who pay so much attention in Iowa and New Hampshire.
So, they want to hear more from him like this immigration plan. And they're sizing him up over the next few months or so. What he needs to do though is build an organization and expand beyond the traditional base of the Republican Party because he will have a problem with evangelicals. I'm starting to pick this up in many conversations with voters that the evangelical Republicans in Iowa who normally are so important in picking this republican nominee, they're skeptical of him. They're not sure where he stands on things. So if Donald Trump is going to succeed in Iowa, he'll have to expand to find some new voter, which is certainly possible. Barack Obama did it in Iowa, in 2007 and 2008, but that's his next hurdle here, how he evolves as a presidential candidate. But Jim, I can tell you the celebrity meets the political candidate, people are so intrigued and curious about what he stands for and what he says.
SCIUTTO: So, you have Trump answering those questions. Here he put out specifics on his immigration policy. Do you see in this policy proposal here what everybody is telling you that they want to hear?
ZELENY: The anti-immigrant activists think this is music to their ears. They like how this sounds. They like the hard line sort of the nature of this. But you heard what Jeb Bush and Lindsey Graham said just a moment ago in the opening there. They think it's unworkable. So, the question is, as this gets picked apart a little bit, is it really realistic to essentially overturn the 14th Amendment to the constitution? Even, you know, as red hot as the immigration controversy is right now in the country, some of these plans that he laid out may not be reworkable. If this is going to be the spine of the conversation at the next republican presidential debate in just a couple weeks, and, of course, CNN has that at the Reagan Library in September.
SCIUTTO: Yes. It's a key question. Are they applause lines? Is it an actual plan? Thanks very much. Jeff Zeleny who has been following Donald Trump the candidate. We tonight with our own Tom Foreman doing our own fact checking on the front-runner to answer that key question, will this immigration plan work? Here's Tom Foreman.
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Close to 700 miles of the 2,000-mile border with Mexico is already fenced and heavily monitored. Finishing the job with a state of the art wall and all it would take to secure that border could cost close to $33 million per mile based on one government estimate. Whatever the cost, Trump says, no problem. DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I will build a great,
great wall on our Southern border. And I'll have Mexico pay for that wall.
FOREMAN: If Mexico won't play along, Trump proposes a torrent of fees on Mexican citizens, corporate CEOs and diplomats who visit the U.S., possibly tariffs and cuts to foreign aid, too. But Mexico is the United States' third largest trading partner, and all of that could cost the U.S. as well. So his opponents are not impressed.
[19:05:21] GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This is not the negotiation of a real estate deal. Okay. This is international diplomacy, and it's different.
FOREMAN: Trump's also want to deal with the 11 million immigrants living in the U.S. illegally.
TRUMP: They have to go.
FOREMAN: The deportation rate has been near 400,000 per year, but to get rid of all those folks, deportations would have to soar almost 28 times higher, and even if he's talking about only those with criminal records, it's not clear how he would find them or fund it. And then there is the 14th amendment ratified in 1868 which says all persons born in the United States are citizens of the United States. Trump wants to change that, arguing that if two people are here illegally and have a baby, that child should not automatically be a U.S. citizen. But legal scholars say that would require changing the constitution. So even many proponents of the idea admit --
REP. STEVE KING (R), IOWA: It will be litigated, there isn't any doubt about it.
FOREMAN: In other words, Trump can say he'll end the birthright rule, but he can't do it even if he were president.
FOREMAN: Undeniably these eyes have a lot of appeal with a lot of people out there, these ideas being thrown out there, but there are these persistent expensive details that are just very hard to deal with and that you just can't get around. What it comes down to is this -- some years ago I was next at the wall in one of the places that was supposed to be the most state of the art, the most heavily guarded and while I'm standing there, a guy came over the top and dropped down and walked into America. And every security expert I talked to says stopping that is really still a complicated problem no matter how much technology you bring to bear, and you can't do it with just campaign slogans. They need to hear more, too -- Jim.
SCIUTTO: No question some climb over it and some tunnel under it.
FOREMAN: Sure. Absolutely.
SCIUTTO: Tom Foreman joining us from Washington. OUTFRONT tonight, Donald Trump's campaign manager, he is Corey
Lewandowski. Thanks very much for taking the time tonight.
COREY LEWANDOWSKI, DONALD TRUMP'S CAMPAIGN MANAGER: Happy to be here.
SCIUTTO: So, you heard our Tom Foreman there. Legal scholars look at this and they say, this is not as simply as getting a majority vote in two houses of Congress. You would have to amend the constitution. If I remember my high school civics well enough, we're talking about two-thirds of votes among the states. This is a major undertaking. Is this a practical plan to take away birth right citizenship?
LEWANDOWSKI: Let's think about this for one second here. If you are a foreign executive here at the United Nations and you decide that you and your wife on U.S. soil and you have a baby here, that baby is not a U.S. citizen. That baby is a citizen of the country that they're from.
SCIUTTO: For diplomats, right --
LEWANDOWSKI: For diplomatic purposes. However, if that same foreign individual decide to leave their country and become an illegal alien and overstay their visa, either one or both of them, that person now, under our government, would be allowed to be a U.S. citizen.
SCIUTTO: I'm aware of the law, but this is 150 years of tradition.
LEWANDOWSKI: Fundamentally, tradition doesn't mean it's right. It doesn't mean it's right. When you come to the country, illegally, that's the key here. You're illegal in first place. And you decide to have a child here, you've done something against the laws of our country to begin with and you do not have the privilege of being a U.S. citizen.
SCIUTTO: That's a fair opinion, but practically how do you change the constitution to change that birth right?
LEWANDOWSKI: Well, the polls are very clear. Two to one people agree that coming over here and having what they call anchor babies is not fair. The cost burden on our country alone according to the latest study in 2013, illegals is $113 billion a year of our government tax dollars being used to subsidize, $5 billion alone in just tax credits. There has to be something done. The first step of this is to build a wall, to make sure, as Israel has done, to build a wall to prevent additional illegal aliens from coming into our country. Look, we can have a big door in that wall. You can come through legally, but there's a process in place and many people over many decades have followed that process legally.
SCIUTTO: Let's talk about that wall. Because during our fact- checking on this according to an estimate. It would cost $43 billion. This is an expensive proposition. Of course, I know that the candidates that will propose fees to Mexican citizens already living in the U.S. He's going to force the Mexican government, possibly cut foreign aid for instance to Mexico, which is a very close ally. But even fellow Republicans Chris Christie on CNN's air this morning saying that this is not negotiating a real estate deal. International diplomacy, in his words, is different. Does Governor Christie have a point? How do you make this happen? It's a great applause line. But how do we get Mexico to pay for a $43 billion?
LEWANDOWSKI: Well, if we give billions in foreign aid to Mexico. The bottom-line is they have to do something on their side. They have their own wall in the southern border to make sure that illegals aren't coming into their country. We've seen this work very clearly in Israel. You build the wall --
SCIUTTO: That was terrorism and the Israeli wall was to stop suicide bombers --
LEWANDOWSKI: Terrorism. We have illegals coming across our country and killing American citizens. You may not call that terrorism unless you talk to the families of Kate Steinle and Jamil Shaw and the individuals who have been physically killed by these illegal aliens. The immigration plan has three basic points. It's very simple. Number one, a nation without a border is not a nation. Number two, a nation without laws is not a nation. Number three, a nation that doesn't serve its own citizens is not a nation. It's time to put America first. It's time to give opportunity for U.S. citizens to go and get those jobs and not allow illegal aliens to take those jobs that others could be having.
[19:10:26] SCIUTTO: I want to ask you a question. Because the other thing that caught our attention yesterday was Donald Trump saying that in terms of his military policy, how did he develop it? He watches the Sunday morning talk shows. In just a short time ago, Jeb Bush commented on this. He said that I get my military advice -- this is Jeb Bush speaking -- from a young dedicated group of a young men and women who are serving in the campaign. Young committed conservatives. In his words, I think it needs to be a little more detailed than watching "Meet the Press." This is a putative commander in chief, Donald Trump. Shouldn't he get his military policy advice on military policy from more than the Sunday morning talk shows?
LEWANDOWSKI: Well, what he also said was he talks to member of other experts, retired generals, active generals. He talks to former ambassadors who are very well briefed and military in foreign affairs policies. And he also said --
SCIUTTO: His point, though said, listen, I get enough advice from watching the Sunday morning talk shows. Is that a serious defense of how he develops his policy?
LEWANDOWSKI: Of course not. But the point is he surrounds himself with experts. He understands that. That is going to be on full display in the next debate which is held with CNN at the Reagan Library which is going to focus on this issue. And Donald Trump will be prepared to talk about his plan as he has been to lay out a very detailed aggressive immigration policy. Not an amnesty plan like Jeb Bush wants or Marco Rubio, but a plan which actually puts America first.
SCIUTTO: I want to ask about the latest polls, because of course Donald Trump has been leading in most of the polls, all the polls really running in. But you're starting to see some chinks in the armor as it were in some of his support. For instance, it asked republican candidates would he win in a matchup against Hillary Clinton. It shows him losing. Whereas Jeb Bush and Marco Rubio beat Clinton. Another statistics, 52 percent say Donald Trump not qualified to be president. Are you beginning to see the support for him waning, the first questions about how strong and whether that poll support will translate into votes?
LEWANDOWSKI: I think it's just the exact opposite. You see the recent polls in Alabama, Mr. Trump is at 33 percent. In Michigan, in Missouri, in Iowa.
SCIUTTO: He can't beat Clinton in this race.
LEWANDOWSKI: I don't know. Clinton is going to be the nominee first and foremost. She has her own problems with this e-mail scandal. But most importantly when you look at the polls, the most recent poll, Jeb Bush is somewhere in the low single digits again. This is a person with 100 percent name I.D., $115 million in a Super PAC which I'm sure is going to be spent to go after Mr. Trump and his policies are being rejected across the board. Mr. Trump, and if you look at the outsiders in this race, Mr. Trump, Mr. Carson, Carly Fiorina, Senator Ted Cruz to a point, those three or four individuals have over 50 percent of the vote which says, politics as usual doesn't work, Washington is broken. Mr. Trump is the clear front-runner in this race for the president of the United States. And he'll be the nominee.
SCIUTTO: Corey Lewandowski, campaign manager for Donald Trump. We appreciate you for taking the time.
LEWANDOWSKI: Thanks for having me.
SCIUTTO: Coming up. And OUTFRONT next, Donald Trump says, he would defeat ISIS by taking their oil and putting 25,000 U.S. boots on the ground. Do America's top veteran generals agree?
Plus, Amazon slammed by employees in a new report. One calling it, quote, "The greatest place I hate to work." I'll talk to a senior Amazon executive about those allegations.
And only Donald Trump would show up for jury duty in a stretch limo and maybe even catch some shut-eye. We'll talk to a juror who spent the day with Trump inside at jury room.
[19:16:48] SCIUTTO: Tonight, Donald Trump offering new details on his plans to defeat ISIS. But when he was asked where he was getting his military advice, Trump gave a surprising answer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: Well, I watch the shows. I mean, I really see a lot of
great, you know, when you watch your show and all of the other shows and you have the generals and you have certain people --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But is there somebody, is there a go-to for you?
TRUMP: Probably there are --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Every presidential candidate has a go-to.
TRUMP: Probably there are two or three.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Are these the words of a potential commander-in-chief? Barbara Starr OUTFRONT tonight.
BARBARA STARR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Donald Trump offering new details on his plan to fight ISIS.
TRUMP: ISIS is taking over a lot of the oil and certain areas of Iraq. And I said you take away their wealth. You go and knock the hell out of the oil, take back the oil, we take over the oil.
STARR: On NBC's "Meet The Press" Trump was adamant how he would do it.
CHUCK TODD, NBC HOST, "MEET THE PRESS": What you're talking about is ground troops.
TRUMP: That's okay. Maybe 25,000. We can circle it. We can circle it. We'll going to have so much money.
STARR: A Trump military critic says, not so fast.
LT. GENERAL MARK HERTLING, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: You don't just go into another country and steal their national wealth which would in fact be what he's suggesting we do.
STARR: The just retired top army general had issue with Trump as well.
(on camera): When you hear Donald Trump say, we should just move in with our troops and take their oil and bomb the Iraqi oil fields and take the oil away from ISIS, does anything like that even remotely have military utility?
GEN. RAY ODIERNO, FORMER U.S. ARMY CHIEF OF STAFF: See, there's limits to military power. And so we can have an outcome, but again, the problem we've had over the last -- do we achieve sustainable outcome? It's about sustainable outcome.
STARR: So you disagree with Donald Trump? ODIERNO: I do.
STARR (voice-over): The majority of U.S. air strikes against oil targets have been in Syria, not Iraq. ISIS controls about 10 percent of Iraq's oil fields. How much money would a president Trump get? In 2014, Iraq earned $300 million a day in oil revenue. Now it's down to roughly $240 million a day due to falling oil prices.
HERTLING: To suggest that we just go in and bomb the oil fields and take them over -- also a violation of international law -- and Mr. Trump may have a lot of lawyers in the Trump corporation, but I don't think they're going to be able to get him out of the Hague when he's tried for that kind of a plan.
STARR: Where does Trump get his military advice?
TRUMP: Well, I watch the shows.
STARR: As you ask the previous guest, Jim, that's what Donald Trump says about where he gets his advice. Now, look, if he was elected and he put this plan into place and he got this money from Iraq's oil, what would he do with it? Well, he says part of it, at least, he would try and give back to the families of the fallen and the wounded, but it is very unclear what mechanism exists that could make that happen -- Jim.
SCIUTTO: We'll see what the generals think about it now. Thanks very much to Barbara Starr at the Pentagon.
OUTFRONT, CNN political commentator Jeffrey Lord, he was a political director for Ronald Reagan and CNN military analyst Colonel Peter Mansoor. He was a former aide for General David Petraeus in Iraq.
Colonel Mansoor, I want to start with you. So, you heard that line, Trump saying that the first thing he watches to get his military advice, the Sunday shows. You've served in Iraq during some of the hardest years there. From a soldier's perspective, is that a satisfying answer to you as to how a commander-in-chief makes what is a very important policy statement on putting U.S. troops in harm's way?
COLONEL PETER MANSOOR (RET), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: It's not. Absolutely not. You know, there are many presidents that come into the oval office, and they don't have a great education in national security and foreign affairs but they are all well-read. Even General Petraeus during the hardest days during his job in Iraq was reading books every night. And you know, a great question for Donald Trump going forward would be, what were the last six books you've read on foreign affairs and national security. You cannot simply get an education watching TV, as great as some of the programs are.
SCIUTTO: Jeffrey, I didn't give you a chance to respond. Colonel Mansoor, he did his time in Iraq. He's not impressed by that answer. What do you defend Donald Trump saying that's where he gets his information?
JEFFREY LORD, FORMER REAGAN WHITE HOUSE POLITICAL DIRECTOR: First of all, he's a business executive. He's not a sitting United States senator or governor or a congressman all of whom have scads of people surrounding them in all kinds of policy areas.
SCIUTTO: True, but he's a businessman who is running to be president of the United States and commander in chief of the U.S. army.
[19:21:25] LORD: I understand. I understand. I understand. And to my point exactly. This is somebody who knows how to put together an organization and he'll undoubtedly do this. Presidential campaigns by their nature, as they begin to take off, they institutionalize themselves. He will have, without question, I'm sure, advisers not only on military policy and national security policy, but health care and every other policy, he's already got an immigration policy out there that, as I understand it, was crafted with help of Senator Jeff Sessions from Alabama. So, this will happen in all due course. One can agree or disagree with the outcome of it, but the notion that he doesn't know enough to do this is, I think, to be perfectly candid, silly. He'll get to it, he'll do it and, you know, we'll go from there.
SCIUTTO: Silly. Silly to ask someone why they're putting U.S. troops in harm's way?
LORD: I'm sorry, Jim.
SCIUTTO: Silly, I mean, I'm just trying to understand how it could be silly to question a candidate on his justification for putting troops in harm's way.
LORD: No, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's silly to say at this stage how many advisers does he have on this. He'll get them. Jeb Bush has certainly said according to the report I was just hearing, that he's got all these advisers. Well, that's probably true. And I would be willing to bet you that a good many of them got us into Iraq in first place, so how good is that? You know, I'm sure that Donald Trump knows how to bring in people. He's done it on immigration. He'll do it on the other issues.
SCIUTTO: Colonel Mansoor, I want to talk about --
LORD: When I said it's silly --
SCIUTTO: Go ahead.
LORD: When I said it's silly, I just mean it's silly to presuppose that he's not going to do that. That's what I'm trying to say.
SCIUTTO: I understood. So, you are saying he'll get the advisers so he'll have that cabinet in effect in due time.
LORD: Exactly. Right. SCIUTTO: Colonel Mansoor, I want to get your opinion on the
other plank in effect of his plan to defeat ISIS. And that is to take its oil fields. You've been in Iraq during some of the toughest times there. Oil, of course, always an essential part of the fight between the various ethnic groups there. Is that a plausible plan? Would it require a big U.S. ground deployment to seize those fields from ISIS?
MANSOOR: Well, it absolutely would. And I would point out that those oil fields don't belong to ISIS. They belong to the Iraqi people. And even if we were to somehow eject ISIS from those fields and hold them with troops on the ground, the Iraqi government would ask a very pointed question -- why don't we get the oil? It's Iraqi oil. It's on Iraqi soil. And if the answer is, well, that's just too bad, we're going to take it, then you'll find a lot of Shia militias starting to attack U.S. troops on Iraqi soil as some of them did during the Iraq war. The U.S. contribution to the Iraq war. So this is not going to be a solution to combating ISIS just simply to take their oil.
SCIUTTO: Colonel Mansoor, former adviser to David Petraeus in Iraq, also great to have you on, Jeffrey Lord, former adviser to Ronald Reagan.
SCIUTTO: OUTFRONT next, a scathing report, Amazon as a brutal place to work that routinely (INAUDIBLE). Now Amazon is fighting back. That's next.
And plus -- passenger plane down with 54 people on board. The latest in the series of crashes in one of the world's busiest air spaces. We'll have a special report after this.
[19:29:00] SCIUTTO: Welcome back. Tonight, Amazon firing back against a damning account of what it's like to work for the world's largest retailer. The scathing allegations appearing in "The New York Times" portraying Amazon as, quote, "a bruising workplace with little or no care for an employee's health or well-being." The cut-throat culture so brutal, one former employer describing the company as a place where overachievers go to feel bad about themselves. But tonight, the company's CEO Jeff Bezos insisting the critique does not represent that company that he knows and he founded.
In a moment, former White House press secretary and senior Amazon executive Jay Carney, he's going to respond. But first, our Kyung Lah is OUTFRONT with tonight's "Money and Power."
KYUNG LAH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Amazon shipping whatever wherever with an effortless click of your finger. But some 100 current and former employees claim it's not so magical for Amazon's white collar employees, describing to "The New York Times" a cut-throat, dog eat dog workplace, pushing out workers viewed as weak for getting cancer or having children. A former employee quoting to the "Times" a saying around Amazon campus, "Amazon is where overachievers go to feel bad about themselves." People claiming to be ex-employees reacted and commiserated across social media.
On Reddit, one claiming to be an ex-Amazon employee writes, "When I went to the bathroom, I would hear at least one person crying at least once a day. There are thousands of us in Seattle alone."
On glassdoor.com, a networking site where employees review companies, Amazon's positive reviews carried this concern, "Advice to management: remember that the employees are people and not machines."
Amazon's own produced videos called "Inside Amazon" showcase employees who call the job challenging and cutting edge, but --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You either fit here or you don't. You love it or you don't. There's no middle ground really.
JEFF BEZOS, AMAZON CEO: Thank you.
LAH: Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos, the driving visionary behind online retailer's seismic success, responded to "The New York Times" article in an e-mail to his more than 100,000 employees writing, "I don't recognize this Amazon." Adding Amazon would not tolerate callous workplace behavior.
But tech analysts say this behavior has been around at Amazon for years and, frankly, other start-ups. John Sullivan advises Fortune 500 companies and has studied Amazon for a decade.
PROF. JOHN SULLIVAN, MANAGEMENT ADVISOR: Oh, wow, they're startled, because they live in a different world. You have to be first like an eBay, like an Amazon, you have to have these kind of people. And I would say shame on them if they were surprised.
LAH: So, will all of this end up affecting Amazon?
Well, right now, what people will tell you is that as long as they keep delivering and managing the public image, they'll probably come out of this just fine. And if you're wondering what happened to the stock, stock was up 0.7 percent -- Jim.
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Market not impressed.
Thanks very much, Kyung Lah, out on the West Coast.
OUTFRONT tonight, Jay Carney. He's Amazon senior vice president of global corporate affairs. You also may remember, he's the former White House press secretary.
Jay, thanks very much for taking the time tonight.
JAY CARNEY, AMAZON SENIOR VICE PRESIDENT OF GLOBAL CORPORATE AFFAIRS: Jim, thanks for having me. It's good to be back. SCIUTTO: All right. So, you look at this account, some of the
adjectives to describe the workplace at Amazon -- punishing, bruising, extreme. Not just those descriptions that struck me. I mean, it's things that employees are required to do, to sign confidentiality agreements. They have means of providing secret feedback on their colleagues.
Are these employees who have described this, are these fantastic description of the workplace? Are they not telling the truth?
CARNEY: Well, let me say broadly why I think the article in "The New York Times" is just -- it's just way off base. It doesn't represent the company that I've worked for, for just five months, but the company that others that I work with have been at for a decade or more.
You know, here's the fundamental problem with the story, which is it creates this vision of a soulless dystopian workplace where people are miserable and unhappy, but no company that was like the one described by "the New York Times" could survive and thrive in the current high-tech labor marketplace.
You know, every -- you know, every qualified engineer, and software developer not just in the United States but in the world, as well as lawyers and others who are interested in the tech field, have their pick of companies to work for. And they come to Amazon because it's a great place to work and because they find it challenging and they love the ethos that we're all focused on, delivering for the customer.
And they also like the fact, that unlike a lot of workplaces, including places I've worked, it is absolutely standard and expected to question everybody's ideas and anybody can have a good idea. It doesn't have to be the person at the top. It can be the person in the middle or the bottom.
SCIUTTO: Let me ask you about this, specifically some of the issues that were raised. This morning you said that the company had not had a chance to check out some of these stories that former employees quoted in "The Times" piece. Have you been able to answer some of those questions since then?
CARNEY: Sure. I mean, we're continuing to work on this. Our human -- our HR department is working on that. And, you know, as I think Jeff Bezos said in his memo to Amazonians from last night and this morning, you know, we want to know, he wants to know if any of the behavior, managerial behavior that was reported on this story is actually true. It's intolerable. We won't accept it.
And, you know, Amazon is not perfect. We're an organization, Jim, that has grown in five years from 28,000 employees, already a big company, to 183,000 employees. And again, 150,000 people, 150,000 new jobs wouldn't be created and filled if people didn't want to work at Amazon.
[19:35:01] And when we're talking about the white collar workforce, again, these are people who could work anywhere.
And in some cases, at the most senior levels, these are people, because they have been so successful, who don't have to work but they love coming to work at Amazon because it's an innovative and creative place to be.
SCIUTTO: And I want to be fair. For instance, there's a current employee, Amazon's head of infrastructure that posted -- he posted a 5,000-word defense of the company on LinkedIn today and talked about how the phrase to criticism ratio is 5-1 in these internal systems. So, I do want to acknowledge that.
But let's look at specific policies, one being the paternity leave policy -- having just had a baby, something close to my heart. But your former employer, the White House, offers fathers six weeks of paid leave. When you look at other companies out in Silicon Valleys, you have others, Netflix offers up to a year of paid paternity leave, Facebook, four months, Apple at least six weeks, Google at least 12 weeks. I mean, these are your peers in that high-tech rough and tumble, challenging West Coast high-tech environment.
SCIUTTO: Why doesn't -- why can't Amazon, very profitable Amazon match that?
CARNEY: Sure. Here's what I would say, one, that's a fair point. And we have to be competitive and we look at our policies, our compensation and our benefits all the time to make us competitive. And we're looking at a range of things.
SCIUTTO: Something you might change, Amazon might offer?
CARNEY: Well, I'm saying we look at these things all the time and we have to be competitive and we are, both in compensation and benefits.
But here's the other picture that isn't included in that stat, yes, some high-tech firms have different, more generous policies on paternity live. But 83 percent of American companies don't offer paid paternity leave. So, 83 percent of companies are where Amazon is. That doesn't mean that's ultimately the right policy, but that article left that fact out.
And, you know, our problem with the article is that it created this picture of a company that couldn't exist today. You know what it's like, Jim. Right now, if you're a qualified PhD in engineering or software developer, you can name -- you can decide where you want to work. Apple, Google, Microsoft, Facebook, Twitter. The world is your oyster, right? And we have to compete to get those people. And they come to Amazon because it's such a compelling place to be and people love to work there.
One of the things that I marvel at about the story is, to suggest that people should come to Amazon if they want to work hard is somehow a bad thing. You know, if you're a smart person who wants to innovate and create, of course, you want to work hard and you want your ideas heard and you want the possibility that your idea will actually be created and developed and become an innovation that becomes part of Amazon's business in the future.
SCIUTTO: Well, Jay, let's stay in touch and see if any changes come out of this, including the paternity policy which you say is one of many that the company is looking at now. We appreciate you taking the time tonight.
CARNEY: Thank you very much, Jim.
SCIUTTO: OUTFRONT next: is the explosive growth of budget airlines behind the series of deadly air crashes?
And the media circus surrounding Donald Trump reporting for jury duty. Why didn't he show up the last five times he was called?
[19:41:58] SCIUTTO: Tonight, dangerous winds and rain forcing authorities to suspend the search for a downed passenger jet carrying 54 people. Rescuers think they have located the plane's debris on a rugged mountain in Indonesia, one of the most dangerous places to fly today.
Our Rene Marsh is OUTFRONT.
RENE MARSH, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Search teams are navigating rugged terrain in eastern Indonesia, trying to find a missing aircraft.
The chief of Indonesia's national search and rescue agency says they've spotted debris and smoke. The flight with 54 people on board disappeared from radar about 30 minutes into the short flight between Jayapura and Oksibil in Indonesia.
The small airline has been involved in 15 serious safety incidents since 1992 and in 2007 was banned from flying in the European Union.
PETER GOELZ, AVIATION EXPERT: They simply allow these small airlines which have very sketchy procedures, to operate.
MARSH: This weekend's crash is the third major plane accident in Indonesia in the past eight months.
In December, AirAsia Flight 8501 with 162 people on board crashed into the Java Sea.
And in June, an Indonesian military plane with 122 people on board crashed into a residential area. There were no survivors.
Indonesian carriers are restricted from operating in the United States because the FAA says its safety and oversight does not meet international standards.
Concerns go beyond airlines in Indonesia after several high profile incidents in the region. In 2014, in the Asia-Pacific region, there was less than one major crash for every 1 million flights, but it was four times the amount of crashes in North America.
In Taiwan, a TransAsia flight crashed into a river shortly after takeoff.
In March 2014, MH370 disappeared over the Indian Ocean. Malaysia Airlines 17 was shot down in Ukraine in July of 2014. In that incident investigators in part blamed the airline for not heeding warnings of potential dangers over that conflict zone.
GOELZ: In fast growing economies, you know, the emphasis is on getting the planes in the air and moving the people. Safety comes second.
MARSH: Airliners in Asia, they are experiencing a boom in travel. In the next 19 years, Indonesia is expected to be the world's sixth largest market shuttling in 270 million passengers. But the problem is international safety regulators, they are so concerned tonight that safety oversights won't keep up, Jim.
SCIUTTO: A lot of Americans go there for vacation as well.
[19:45:00] Thanks very much to Rene Marsh.
OUTFRONT next, jury duty Donald Trump style. Ahead, a juror who spent the day with him.
And Jeanne Moos with why tailgating a big truck -- and you might have expected this -- is always a bad idea.
SCIUTTO: Donald Trump reported for jury duty today. In true Trump fashion, his civic duty quickly turned into a circus.
Jean Casarez is OUTFRONT.
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Such professional people. We had a great time. The potential jurors were wonderful.
JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A crowd greeted Donald Trump as he wrapped up his day as a jury at New York state Supreme Court in Manhattan. Dozens of reporters and supporters trying to get a glimpse of the presidential candidate as he showed up to jury duty in a black limousine.
Trump waited inside the courthouse along with 175 other potential jurors. And waiting is all they did. [19:50:00] TRUMP: Actually, they chose nobody. We were -- it is
one of those lucky days.
You know what, Summer? You're fired.
CASAREZ: Known for being the judge and jury on NBC's "The Apprentice", Trump mentioned his jury service last Friday night during a campaign stop in New Hampshire.
TRUMP: I'll be doing jury duty. Can you believe? I'll be doing jury duty on Monday morning.
TRUMP: Former President George W. Bush enjoyed his civic duty, taking photos at the Dallas civil court in early August.
But in 2005, while serving as president, there were concerns with public safety.
JUDGE RALPH STROTTER, MCLENNAN COUNTY, TEXAS: As a practical matter, him actually appearing creates, you know, various issues, security, safety issues both for him and for the public.
TRUMP: President Obama didn't go back to Illinois when he got a jury summons in 2010. "The Chicago tribune" headline, "Presidential perk, Obama gets out of local jury duty." His first State of the Union was that very week. And not to forget Ronald Reagan, when president, he got a jury summons too.
Gary Blare was the court's executive officer for Santa Barbara Superior Court who sent him the summons. He tells CNN, "President Reagan was willing to serve and his staff was very cooperative. We simply agreed that it would be best that he perform his service on jury duty once his term in office was completed."
This is a copy of his actual jury duty questionnaire affidavit. That phone number, it's the main White House switchboard, a public number. Reagan provided the simple explanation, "Presidential duties make it impossible to serve."
Experts say our public figures need to lead by example. And Trump they say is doing just that.
JASON BLOOM, JURY CONSULTANT: Despite how you might feel about him politically, he send a very important message. I'm a citizen. And I have to play by the same rules. It doesn't matter how much money I have, doesn't matter if I am running for president.
CASAREZ: And we are right here at the courthouse in downtown New York City where Donald Trump spent the day. He actually has the gotten in the past five different summons for jury duty but said he never received any of them that. And that's why he didn't come until today when he got one.
Well, CNN spoke with the New York commissioner of courts for the state and they say that it's true. Donald Trump has his name on a lot of buildings in the city, and it is quite possible the summons went to a building that had his name but where he wasn't actually living in -- Jim.
SCIUTTO: Incredible. Jean Casarez, thanks.
Allen Fox served jury duty alongside Donald Trump.
Alan, thank you for joining us.
Was he treated differently by the court? By the other jurors? Or was he lined up there like you and everybody else?
ALAN FOX, SERVED JURY DUTY WITH DONALD TRUMP: Honestly, he walked in just like everybody else. I mean, there were media people ling the steps. They didn't, they didn't really ask me any questions when I walked up. They asked him some. But other than that he was treated like everyone else. He sat in the same room with everyone else.
When we want to lunch his car was parked in the, in the no parking zone out front. But it's probably safer for him to be there.
SCIUTTO: So, we have seen some pictures of Trump on social media inside the courtroom. Looks like he is sitting quietly among everyone else. What was he up to in there? Was he on his phone? Was he hanging out? Was he taking a nap?
FOX: Yes, the first half of all the day looked like he was kind of taking a nap. He just sat there quietly. Everyone around him was very respectful. Not really bugging him or anything.
After lunch, he talked more with people. Kind of looked like a town hall, sort of meet up. People came around and talked to him a little bit. He seemed very friendly.
SCIUTTO: You have probably seen the reactions to him as he has been out campaigning. He has certainly got a following out there. Did you sense in that jury room that people were with him? They wanted to hear what he had to say?
FOX: You know, I don't know if people are for him or against him. But I know he makes people curious. That's what it seemed to feel like in the jury room. I mean, you know, it's still over a year before the election and there were a ton of press people watching him go to jury duty.
I think that speaks to how curious everyone is about him and people inside the jury room, they seem the same way. They didn't know what to make of him, but they were interested to hear what he had to say, make sure he was a live human beg and all that stuff. So --
SCIUTTO: All right. Alan Fox, thanks very much for joining us.
FOX: Thanks, Jim.
SCIUTTO: And coming up next , a whole new meaning to taking a highway exit.
[19:58:19] SCIUTTO: Welcome back. Here is Jeanne Moos.
JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: When you are driving your dump truck in the up position -- you're in no position to avoid demolishing an overhead sign even if the motorist behind you is blowing his horn to warn the truck driver on a highway in Saudi Arabia. The driver who is hospitalized told authorities it was a technical malfunction that caused the truck bed to go up as he drove.
An extended dump truck likewise plowed into the Burlington skyway in Ontario last year. That driver was charged with driving while impaired and criminal negligence.
Near Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan, a trucking hauling a giant oil tank didn't just smash a sign, it took it hostage.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where is he from, Ontario?
MOOS: But over-high trucks also meet immovable structures. This railroad trestle is known as the can opener. At least 95 accidents have been caught on camera and posted to a website known by the height of the underpass, 11 feet 8 inches.
There have even been two collisions on the same day, involving trucks from the same rental company. A resident compiles the video.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just a hobby.
MOOS: Drivers somehow manage not to notice the over height when flashing sign.
There is another infamous railroad underpass in Westwood, Massachusetts. Perhaps it is most famous victim was dubbed lobster- pocalypse, a truck carrying 11,000 pound of live lobsters hit the trestle starting a fire. The driver hopped out. Police say there were no injuries unless you count any grilled crustaceans.
Jeanne Moos, CNN, New York.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Holy molly!
SCIUTTO: Thank you for joining us tonight. Always great to join you.
"AC360" starts right now.