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Donald Trump Rewriting the Rules of the Political Came; Joe Biden's Decision Down to the Wire; Paul Ryan Willing to Serve as Speaker of the House Under Certain Conditions; Grieving Corey Jones; Cosby Changes Attorneys; Steve Jobs Movie Examined; Ole Miss Student Government Votes to Remove State Flag. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired October 20, 2015 - 22:00   ET



[22:00:00] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN TONIGHT SHOW HOST: Playing the trump card. Is Donald Trump rewriting the rules of the political game?

This is CNN Tonight. I'm Brooke Baldwin in for Don Lemon. Take a look at Donald Trump's latest Instagram.


BILL CLINTON, FORMER U.S.PRESIDENT: He is the master brander.

And he's the most interesting character out there.

And there is a macho appeal to saying, I'm just sick of nothing happening, I make things happen, vote for me. And I like him.


BALDWIN: Yes. Now, we all know that Bill Clinton did not endorse Donald Trump, but you have to hand it to the candidate for make it look like he did, kind of.

Is that just the sort of take-no prisoner's strategy that could take Trump to the top?

Plus, Joe Biden, the Vice President is taking this down to the wire, but some democrats may be getting tired of the will he or won't he dance. Just 30 percent in the new poll want him to run, has Joe Biden missed his moment?

I want to begin this evening though, with breaking news. Congressman Paul Ryan, willing to serve as Speaker of the House, but only if the republicans can unite behind him and agree to a series of concessions. Listen to what he just said in the House gallery.


PAUL RYAN, CONGRESSMAN: My greatest worry is the consequence of not stepping up. Of someday having my own kids ask me, when the stakes were so high, why didn't you do all you could do? Why didn't you stand and fight for my future when you had the chance to do so? None of us wants to hear that question and none of us should ever have

to. I have shown my colleagues what I think success looks like, what I think it takes to unify and lead and how my family commitments come first.

I have left this decision in their hands. And should they agree with these requests, then I am happy and I am willing to get to work.


BALDWIN: I want to bring in Bob Beckel, political analyst and author of "I Should Be Dead, My Life of Surviving Politics, TV and Addiction," also tonight Bob Cusack, editor-in-chief of The Hill, democratic strategist Jamal Simmons, and Washington Times columnist, Charles Hurt.

Gentlemen, great to have you on. Bob Cusack, first to you, give me the goods, I mean, how this all come to be tonight, what's the story behind the scenes on Paul Ryan?

BOB CUSACK, THE HILL EDITOR-IN-CHIEF: Well, Paul Ryan needs to step up as he said, because there is nobody else who can lead, who can be Speaker of the House other than Paul Ryan who can get the votes to be Speaker.

So, this is a job that Paul Ryan does not want. I think it hurts his presidential ambitions down the road, but he wants, and he told the house represents, listen, if you unify behind me, I will take the mantle up and I will be a speaker. Probably not for very long, but it looks like I think Paul Ryan is going to be your next speaker.

BALDWIN: what do we know, staying with you, Bob, what do we know about the deal that was made?

CUSACK: well, he's got to be endorsed by all of the House republican conferences, and this includes the House freedom caucus, this is the caucus of conservatives that basically pushed John Boehner out.

And there have some rumblings that Paul Ryan supported the bailout in 2008, he wants immigration reform, but overall, Paul Ryan is respected by the right, and that's why I think he's not going to get all the votes from the House republican.

But he'll get enough votes and it will be a sign of unity. And honestly, Brooke, if he -- if they don't get the votes, it is pure chaos in the House and is right now actually.

BALDWIN: My goodness. Charlie, this is what struck me, how all of this just so quickly unfolding. I mean, this isn't a guy who says, OK, I want to unite all of you. This is a man who says, I will serve with condition, yes, I will bail you out, but you have to bend to me off of the bat.

CHARLES HURT, WASHINGTON TIMES COLUMNIST: Well, I think, Brooke, with that is a sign of more than anything else is the fact that this is a really terrible job that he is being asked to do. And obviously, nobody else really wants to do it.

And as Bob pointed out, I don't think nobody who didn't want to do it would be able to garner the votes necessary to get it done, at least certainly not without some sort of bizarre marriage between the democrats and the republican on the House floor.

But you know, Ryan just might be the right kind of person. He's a nerdy guy, he's not all that interesting. True conservatives have issues with him on a couple of the key issues, but by and large, he's a policy nerd and not much of a lightning rod.

And maybe that will be a good thing as sort of a caretaker to some other, maybe more transformational speaker down the road.

BALDWIN: OK. Let's not hate on the nerds. Not at all. Gentlemen, not at all. Jamal, I know...


HURT: I'm jealous; I could never cut it as a nerd.

BALDWIN: I know you're smiling, and this has been pointed out that so far, listen, this is a job that nobody wants. And I think Bob alluded to this earlier, and really can this kiss any presidential aspirations ba-bye?

JAMAL SIMMONS, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: I actually think not. First of all, I'm glad to be one of the Brooke and the boys tonight.


[22:04:56] SIMMONS: It's a great band that we have going on here. But I think that Paul -- I'm very happy as a democrat that Paul Ryan is not running for president right now. The speech he gave today I thought was so spectacular.

It showed an obligation to the country, responsibility. He's one of the few republicans who talks about poverty.

You know, I'm from Michigan and he's from Wisconsin. I grew up -- we're about the same age. I grew up with people just like Paul Ryan, you know, knowing him, and I feel like he's the kind of person who, if you run for president on the republican side, would slay the rest of that field.

He makes the rest of them look like Mr. Bunch of Trumps who are trying to get in the limelight. So, I'm glad he want to be Speaker, he's third in line for the president. If he's going to be Speaker, if he takes that job, I think the country will be in a better shape of having Paul Ryan.

And I say it as a democrat who just think, who disagrees with him on almost everything, but he does seem like a responsible person.

BALDWIN: Great. Bob Beckel, let me just quickly hear your voice on this and then I want to move on to Trump. BOB BECKEL, "I SHOULD BE DEAD" AUTHOR: Well, first of all, it breaks my heart that they've got this problem.

BALDWIN: So, heartbroken.

BECKEL: You know, one of the things about of this is he says the freedom caucus that he wants them to have a majority and to be with him. But let's remember, the freedom caucus wants to have rule changes, which are very much anti-speaker changes.

And so, if he cut the deal with them, he has to give up some rules, which means more amendments, more other things...


BALDWIN: But doesn't Paul Ryan have leverage here?

BECKEL: Well, you know, those guy, and I don't know if you have spent much time with them, but, I mean, when I used to drink, I used to drink with guys like that. I don't -- he just not -- they are not his kind of guys.

BALDWIN: OK. OK. I'll take your word for that.

BECKEL: Yes, please.

BALDWIN: Let's move on. Let's talk about the day in Trump. So, I recently read this article, this in Entrepreneur magazine about this tool belt of tactics that Trump, you know, pulls out to maneuver his was through this campaign.

So, fellas, let me just walk us all through this. Number one, make people underestimate you. Bob Cusack, do you remember his announcement speech, Trump Tower; here he was coming down that escalator with Melania.


BALDWIN: That did not look like a typical presidential candidate; did that help him that people have underestimated him from to get?

CUSACK: Oh, yes. I definitely think so. And there was a lot of the stark and bad predictions about his presidential bid and he's defied all of them. I think he's gone a lot better as a candidate honestly from that launch.

I mean, he did give a bit of a rambling speech that night, but you see that his speeches have gotten tighter, but, Brooke, I think the big, the magic to Donald Trump is that he continues to give us the media something new to write about every day.

He doesn't give boring stump speeches that we have seen from the other candidates, and that keeps his name in the headlines and I think him attacking Jeb Bush on 9/11, and once again, that has Jeb Bush talking about his brother, that is genius, that's what Trump wants.

BALDWIN: Jamal, some of the, we're going back to his line from four months ago.


BALDWIN: Trump launches presidential campaign with empty flair. Donald Trump spectacular unending, untiringly baffling often wrong campaign launch. I mean, you know, he's been successful, as Bob just pointed this back and forth his attack on 9/11 with Jeb Bush.

He is cruising when you look at these polls. Do you think, do you feel the oxygen changing, do you feel that, you know, the tide is turning, or do you think people still underestimate him?

SIMMONS: I think Donald Trump is a great TV star, he knows how to work the cameras, he knows how to work the media. I think some of us will look back, it was not for ordained that he's going to work.

But I think because he's been playing on network television every night to millions of people, while the rest of these candidates have been, you know, in front of, I don't know, maybe one or two million people in their states.

He has a different feel for the country and how this all works. I'm not sure that that this will hold all the way out to the end. I know people say you shouldn't underestimate. I just think at the end of the day Americans sober up when it's time to pick a president. I don't see them picking him.


BALDWIN: Well, people are writing about him. People are clicking -- have you all seen this audacious/genius Instagram that he posted today? Take a look.


CLINTON: He's a master brander.

And he's the most interesting character out there

And there is a macho appeal to saying, I'm just sick of nothing happening, I make things happen, vote for me. And I like him.


BALDWIN: I mean, here he is, Charlie, he took the spouse of his number one opponent and turns it into the -- I do it with the air quotes, "an endorsement." He, Donald Trump continues to surprise us, does he not?

HURT: Sure. You know, we may quibble with that as an endorsement, but you can't argue that it wasn't an endorsement of sorts, it is an endorsement, maybe an unscripted Clinton endorsement.

But I would actually go so far as to say that Donald Trump, you know, he's a very modern candidate and I think he is the most interesting political candidate to arise since Bill Clinton came out of the backwoods of Arkansas.

He is a thoroughly modern candidate. He is a great marketer, and he understands how to -- you know, today, we have, how many, 12, 15 news cycles every single day and Donald Trump is able to dominate all of them in a single day with one devastating insult from a week ago.


[22:10:08] BECKEL: Charlie, Charlie, Charlie. It's a couple of things to keep in mind here. One is that the populism has been around a long time, and about every 10 years it comes up, he hit it at the right time, one.

And two, the summer before a presidential election is usually the most boring time for the news, because people are raising money. Now, and so, Trump steps into this vacuum, the press says nothing to write about it.


HURT: And smart thing to do.

BECKEL: Yes, it is a smart thing to do and I give him credit for it, but that was pretty seasonal, now he's got to move into the regular season and that's a little bit different.

I mean, he is, look, he is in over his head, and the depth that is unbelievable. He will have trouble in the kiddie pool right now.

HURT: Yes. But look at what he's up against, and look at what he's doing to them, he's taking the republican frontrunners and devastated, destroying them. He is 20 point ahead of Jeb Bush who was the absolute favorite and the guaranteed crown prince.

BECKEL: The establishment favorite, yes.

BALDWIN: Is part of this, and this is the part of the, you know, tactic number two, knowing your audience. Bob Cusack, I mean, this is a man who's made his billions in real estate, he knows his way around the negotiating table, he knows who he is talking to, listen, he's been lobbying these political grenades and the more and more it seems the audience love him.

CUSACK: Yes, and it's a big audience. It's the first two republican debates. And certainly, I think in that first debate that was a key moment for Donald Trump, could he hang with these politicians who are used to debate. And interesting before that debate, Donald Trump said, I'm not a great debater, and I'm not used to these debates, and then he did extremely well in the first debate.


BALDWIN: Do you buy that he didn't really prepare?

CUSACK: I think he prepare to some degree. But also I don't he spends days upon in preparing. I mean, he is very good off of the cuff, he doesn't give -- he doesn't use teleprompter, he doesn't give notes, he just notes what the audience wants.

HURT: He doesn't even follow those speeches.


BECKEL: Yes. Exactly he does.

BALDWIN: Gentlemen, let me have a pause. I have so much to ask of you. I have to get a quick commercial break in. Please, please, stick around.

When we come back, more secrets of Donald Trump's success. Also ahead, Joe Biden grabbing the democrats spotlights. But is he the real deal or is this his last hoorah.

Also, he's not a news anchor but he played on TV. I will ask Jeff Daniels about his role in the new Steve Jobs' movie.


BALDWIN: All right. We're back in CNN Tonight. I'm Brooke Baldwin. We have more on Donald Trump's tactics propelling him to the top of the republican race.

Back with me, Bob Beckel, Bob Cusack, Jamal Simmons, and Charles Hurt.

I know, Beckel, you, in particular, are thrilled to continue to talking about Mr. Trump, so let's do that.

BECKEL: Awesome. Yes, let's do it. Why not?

BALDWIN: Let's do it. Let's do it. Back to our tactic. So, another tactic that Mr. Trump has mastered. Never back down. Trump does not back down.

There are so many examples, just today he talked to my colleague this morning on New Day, Alisyn Camerota and here is what he says.


ALISYN CAMEROTA, NEW DAY SHOW HOST: Let me just read to you what you said on October 6th, about Afghanistan. You said we made a terrible mistake getting involved there in the first place.

DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: No, we made an external...


CAMEROTA: We have real brilliant thinkers that didn't know what the hell they were doing, and it's a mess.

TRUMP: We made a mistake going into Iraq, I've never said we made a mistake going into Afghanistan.

CAMEROTA: This question was about Afghanistan that day on October 6th, it was...

TRUMP: OK. I never said that. OK. It wouldn't matter, I've never said it. Afghanistan is a different kettle.


BALDWIN: OK. So, here's the funny thing about that, he did say it two weeks ago on the very same show. Take a listen.


TRUMP: We made a terrible mistake getting involved there in the first place. We had real brilliant thinkers that didn't know what the hell they were doing, and it's a mess. It's a mess.

And at this point, you probably have to, because that thing will collapse about two seconds after they leave, just as I said that Iraq was going to collapse after we leave.


BALDWIN: Bob Beckel, Bob Beckel, I mean, doesn't he stick to his version of the story no matter what?

BECKEL: Yes. Even when it's wrong. I mean, this guy is not the Nobel Prize Laureate for history. I mean, this is a guy who says something and he back pedals. He says, John McCain is not war hero, but wait a minute, you didn't hear me right, I said something else.

That is a Carly Fiorina is ugly, and then he says, no, I mean, a persona. And you know, you all buy into it and nobody challenges him. And nobody wants to challenge him apparently, because they're afraid of his audience.

But speaking about his audience...


BALDWIN: Yes, come on now, we're challenging him, we're challenging him, I mean, he keeps coming back, he's calling in.

BECKEL: Finally, but he knows his audience, I agree with that. But George Wallace do his audience, too.

BALDWIN: OK. OK. Let's move. Final tactic. This is the use of misdirection. I think this is sort of your point with, you know, that the persona and the face. Actually, let me move along to Carly Fiorina, where has she gone, Bob Cusack?

CUSACK: Well, she soar after both the first and the second republican debate, but she has lost some momentum in the polls, and, you know, I don't get the sense.

We interviewed Trump last week, and I don't get the sense he views her as a major contender for the nomination. I just don't based upon how he talks about her, I do think he's threatened by Jeb Bush, certainly, but more so Marco Rubio especially recently.

I think Fiorina is going to have to have another strong debate performance. She hasn't been in the news like others had been even Jeb Bush.


CUSACK: And I think she's lost some momentum. There's no doubt about it.

BALDWIN: Charlie, what about we've learned today there was this closed door fund-raiser event for Jeb Bush and his brother George W. Bush was there and he was talking with this, you know, group of donors and he was talking about Ted Cruz and he said basically, I don't like that guy.

That he is opportunistic, preparing himself for Donald Trump. By the way, you know, Senator Cruz used to work for Bush 43, what is that all about? Is there bad blood somewhere from their past?

HURT: It is a -- there was a really strange thing for him to say, Brooke, especially for a president who's gone to such length to sort of stay out of the spotlight and to let the current president to have his shot at running things.

But my guess is that what he's trying to do is he's trying to undermine Ted Cruz' support so that in order to sort of whittle away the sort of the competition that his brother Jeb has to face in order to, you know, get enough up in the polls that he can directly challenge or try to directly challenge Donald Trump, you know, head- to-head.

SIMMONS: You know, Brooke.

[22:20:06] BALDWIN: Jamal, yes, I know -- I wanted to hear from you exactly, because you say this is good for Dems, why?

SIMMONS: Well, yes. Every time you see George Bush in the news and George Bush being associated with Jeb Bush, it's a good day for democrats, it reminds people that Jeb is George's brother and it reminds us...


BALDWIN: But his favorability is pretty high.

SIMMONS: Sure, it is now because he's out of office. You know, if it weren't for Iraq, Katrina, and a ballooning budget deficit, George Bush would have been a great president.

But the reality is the fact...


SIMMONS: ... are so bad about his presidency that the more we have to talk about him, the more people are reminded why they want to stay away from the Bush's.

BALDWIN: OK. Final question. I want to go a quick round robin. Bob Beckel, to you first, why are we still waiting on Joe Biden?

BECKEL: Well, I actually talked to somebody who was in the room at the House this weekend and the advice was all over the lot. And there is one theory, and I think like it, which is that the -- he can't beat Hillary Clinton if she stays out of trouble on this -- on her e-mails.

But if she gets in trouble, Joe doesn't have to run; he's the logical guy for the party to go to. And so, I think he could do this. Look, he is running out every day, he loses another state chance to file there.

He's got to file 50,000 signatures in Pennsylvania.


BECKEL: And it's not going to happen, so let her run, and if she stumbles, he could step in.

BALDWIN: Bob Cusack, why are we waiting?

CUSACK: Well, I think he's very indecisive on it, and he has a lot of momentum. It seems a couple of weeks ago. I talked to a couple of people close to Biden and they've gone, they said it's 50-50.

It's Joe Biden's decision. I think the announcement is going to come tomorrow. I think he's going to get in, I think he's been in the politics so long. He just want to look back and say, what if. You know, but, we'll see.

BALDWIN: Tomorrow, the day before the testifying. Jamal, why?

SIMMONS: You know, I'm sure that he's wrestling with it. They kind of say, if they allow the leak to happen he's going to make an announcement in 48 hours, and he makes the announcement tomorrow, he's not going to run. It will be the biggest bad decision since LeBron James now says he was going to Miami, right?

BALDWIN: Or the son asked him to run when he died, remember, that was the rumor around for a couple of days.

BALDWIN: Charlie.

HURT: I think it's just Joe Biden shooting from the hip, and he's somewhat disorganized. But, you know, what we saw at the last democratic debate where all the other democrats on the stage just kind of bowed to Hillary, that opened a huge, huge avenue for somebody who wants to challenge Hillary Clinton to step in, and Joe Biden is probably -- I think Joe Biden is the best democrat to be that person who steps in as the alternative to Hillary.

BALDWIN: All right. Bob Cusack, we will see if you're right and if tomorrow is the day. Gentlemen, I appreciate all of you. Thank you very much tonight.

CUSACK: Thank you, Brooke.

HURT: Thanks, Brooke.

SIMMONS: Thanks, Brooke.

BALDWIN: And when we come back, a police killing in Florida. What happens in the moments before an officer shot and killed a young black driver on the side of the road in the middle of the night? Our experts will weigh in.


BALDWIN: Tonight, a Florida family is grieving a young African- American driver named Cory Jones was shot and killed by a police officer during an encounter over the weekend.

CNN's Alina Machado joins us live tonight from Palm Beach Gardens. Alina, what are police saying happened?

ALINA MACHADO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brooke, the police say the officer, Officer Nouman Raja thought he was checking out an abandoned car in an exit ramp when this all happened on Sunday morning.

It happened around 3.15 in the morning on Interstate 95. Police say, the officer was actually on duty, but he was wearing plain clothes and he was in an unmarked vehicle.

Police say that when the police officer got out to his car to check out this so-called abandoned car, that he was approached what they described was an armed subject, that's when the officer discharged his weapon, killing Cory Jones.

Now tonight, police released a picture of a handgun they say was recovered from the scene. They said record show that Cory Jones had purchased that hand gun some three days before this incident.

What we don't know is whether that handgun was actually discharged or whether it was fired during this encounter, Brooke.

BALDWIN: What about Corey Jones' family, and what do they think believe of the police department's side of things?

MACHADO: You know the family still has lots of questions about this, people who knew Cory Jones say that he was a laid back guy that he was not confrontational.

And that's why they're having a tough time understanding how this encounter with this police officer could have turned so violent, so deadly, so quickly. Listen to what his grandfather had to say today after the news press conference.


SYLVESTER BANKS SR, COREY JONES' GRANDFATHER: You know, we are reaching out for help everywhere, and if anyone Reverend Al Sharp or wherever, you know, even up to the President of the United States, if he can help us in this situation, and be able to help the community and help this city and the citizens that are far abroad, you know that the violence will stop, brother among the police officers and the citizen.


MACHADO: Now we know this family is vowing to continue to push for answers. We know they've hired civil rights attorney, Benjamin Crump.

We also know that there is a peaceful protest that is planned to take place here in front of the Palm Beach Gardens Police Department on Thursday morning, Brooke.

BALDWIN: What about, quickly, Alina, the officer, Officer Raja, what do we know about him?

MACHADO: Yes. The officer was relatively new with the department. He was just hired in April and he spent several years before joining this department at a smaller department.

We know also that the police chief here says that there have been no complaints filed against this officer, Brooke.

BALDWIN: All right. Alina Machado, thank you very much. Let me bring in now Harry Houck, a retired New York City police detective, and legal analyst Mel Robbins and Mark O'Mara.

So, welcome to all of you. And, Harry, listen, we weren't there. We don't know precisely what happened, but in all of your years, you know, on the force, what do you think happened that night?

[22:29:53] HARRY HOUCK, RETIRED NEW YORK POLICE DETECTIVE: Well, I have an idea what might happened here. Since we had an officer that was plain clothes, and Mr. Jones did have a weapon inside his vehicle, maybe when the officer pulled up, Mr. Jones was afraid or maybe he was afraid that he was getting robbed, so went and grabbed his weapon.

At the same time, when that officer exited that vehicle and went towards Mr. Jones, that Mr. Jones was brandishing the weapon at that time, whether or not this officer had declared himself a police officer or not, we don't know, and then, I guess a shot was fired there and the officer probably had thought that, you know, saw him with the weapon and thought that his life was in danger and fired.

This could have happened the other way around, too, if it happened also. We might be talking about a dead police officer right now if something like might have happened.

So, we still need to find out exactly what actions that officer took at the immediately when he stopped. Did he put his bright on, did he put his flashers on, did he have a red light inside of that vehicle to be able to identify himself as a police officer?

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN TONIGHT SHOW HOST: Well, I can say that we've also just learned in addition to what we are covering in Florida, you know, officers are on edge, just tonight in East Harlem in New York City, an officer was shot and critically wounded responding to a call of shots fired.

HOUCK: Right.

BALDWIN: I know that the mayor, the police commissioner, they're expected to speak on that shortly. So, you know, definitely in the state of very high tension as a society.

Mark, to you, are you concerned that this case here, you know, it could be part of this larger systemic, is paranoia the word, you know, between the police officers and civilians?

MARK O'MARA, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It truly is. What's happening is because of all the publicity wrapped around all of the interactions between police and citizen, particularly black citizens, everybody is going to it with a much higher concern level.

Cops are much more concerned because they are getting assassinated on occasion, and citizens are looking at it and saying cops aren't the cops that we knew a decade ago and they are more concerned.

So, what's happening is I think everyone is coming to it with a much higher level of tension. And whenever you have that level of testosterone or adrenaline or whatever it might be, you're going to have more mistakes.

The forensics are going to be very important, and how far away was he when the gun was shot, and certainly whether or not Corey Jones' gun was discharge. That would be a complete sort of game-changer as to what whether or not the officers' action were justified.

BALDWIN: Yes. Mel, I know you and I have a lot questions about the gun. Let me just first just briefly read this. This is from the Palm Beach Gardens Police Department releasing the statement in part.

This is how it reads, "As the officer exited his vehicle, he was suddenly confronted by an armed subject, as a result of the confrontation the officer discharged his firearm resulting in the death of the subject, Corey Jones."

Now we also know that police had today Corey Jones he just bought the gun three days before the shooting, Sunday night. Mel, what are your questions regarding this weapon?

MEL ROBBINS, CNN COMMENTATOR & LEGAL ANALYST: You know, Brooke, I have a lot of them. And, you know, I have great respect for both Harry and Mark. And I think that both of their observations are correct that, you know, you can take a look at the situation, and you can say, wow, 3.15 in the morning, and you got an officer whose on edge pulling up, you've somebody in the car who is African-American, who has a gun in the car.

We don't know whether it's legal or not, I'm going to assume that it is for the sake of this particular story. But the one thing that was said tonight that I think that we need to focus on was said by Mark, and that is, what are the forensics, because if...


BALDWIN: No dash cam, no body cam.

ROBBINS: No dash cam and no body cam.

O'MARA: That is a problem.

ROBBINS: Yes, that's a problem. It's a problem not only for Corey's family, it's a problem for the police officer, because if this is a scenario that went down as Harry described where where an officer pulls up to a car, you know, at 3.15 in the morning, approaches it, and is confronted, and there is a horrible mistake on both sides that go down, that is one scenario.

If there is a totally different scenario where, you know, something nefarious happens and there is some sort of cover-up, there is no camera. So, in either event, there is no completion for anybody, and so forensics are going to be really important.

Are the officers' fingerprints on the gun, are the officer's fingerprints on the box that the gun was stored in, is there an ear witness, Brooke?

We know that this gentleman's friend had come to try to help him fix the car in the wee hours they had played. Was he on the phone with somebody else as he was waiting for T-Mobile and the mobile, you know, car folks to show up because he had called for assistance, for roadside assistance, was he on the phone with somebody when all of this happened?

BALDWIN: But what about to your point about the forensics, the lack of video, Mark, you know, we know that police officer's and the lack of video and the police officer's story really the only one that will actually be heard.

Does the police department, there has to be pressure on this police department to be transparent, yes?

O'MARA: Well, actually there has to be but the problem with it is as you just said, we are only going to get what the police officer's interpretation was, and we all look at things and make things look in the light most favorable to our position.

[22:34:58] I'm not saying he's going to lie but we're not going to get the full story, we're not going to get his interpretation of it. This is a yet another example of why every cop car that a cop is in and every uniform a cop wears has to have a body camera on it. Because these questions are not going to be answered to anyone's satisfaction when its opinion rather than video.

HOUCK: Well, the forensics will also, Mark, as you know, the forensics and the crime scene itself will tell a story, and they will check to see if that matches the officer's story.

I mean, we haven't had these cams on police officers for the last, you know, thousands of years. Now all of a sudden, you know, we can't say directly that because there is not a cam there that we shouldn't believe the police officer here. We have no reason to believe that the police officer is not telling the truth, you know, there is no evidence that indicate that...


ROBBINS: Wait, but, Harry, that's not what Mark is saying.

HOUCK: No, no. I know that.


HOUCK: I know that's not what Mark is saying, but this is just what I'm saying here is that, you know, we have to give the police officer the benefit of the doubt up until this investigation has concluded.

BALDWIN: OK. Everyone, let me ask you all to stay with me, because coming up next, we're going to change topics, a huge change in Bill Cosby's legal team, and what does this mean for the charges piling up against him.


BALDWIN: Bill Cosby no longer being represented by famed attorney, Marty Singer, who specializes in defending celebrities in crisis.

Cosby is now represented by Christopher Taback in the case being brought against by Judy Huff. She accuses the comedian of sexually abusing her when she was 15 years of age.

Back with me, Harry Houck, Mel Robbins, and Mark O'Mara. Mark, the fact that he is out, your reaction to that.

O'MARA: we'll you know, it's easy to speculate, we're not sure yet. Marty Singer was quite aggressive when was attacking the victims in this case calling their stories fantastical and what not.

So, it could be that this is a sign towards the slightly better, more collaborate, which I doubt. Don't forget, Gloria Allred took Cosby's deposition last week, and it could be that Cosby didn't feel as though Singer protected him enough.

I mean, he's hired now Quinn Emanuel of 700 Lawyer firms, so we certainly brought on a lot of firepower, probably with the intent to use it, but we'll find out in the next couple of weeks for sure.

BALDWIN: But Still, Mark, some of the other attorneys they're still part of a team that does the defense change at all or no?

O'MARA: Well, I think that this is a signal of a change. Again, either a much more aggressive change which means that he is in for the long fight and he is going to contest everything, or maybe that this is a way to open up some other doors, because we know that he's going to do one of two things.

He's going to settle out this case, move on maybe trying to save some legacy or whatever is left, or he is going to be fighting until he is done, because these cases will last forever and ever, and he's got to be making some type of a game change in one of those two directions.

BALDWIN: what about, Mel, what about the timing of all of this? I mean, this happened what, little more than a week after Cosby faced question after question after question from Gloria Allred under oath.

ROBBINS: OK. So, Brooke, I'm going to lay it out here for you from a common sense perspective.

BALDWIN: Lay it out.

ROBBINS: Because legally, like attorney-client privilege we're not going to really know, but there are only two reasons why a client and attorney break up. Number one, the attorney breaks up with the client because they can no longer control them, and they dot no agree with the way in which the client wants to now run the case.

Or number two, the client breaks up with the attorney, because the client no longer likes the advice that they're getting, so they want to have an attorney that will tell them what they want to hear.

My suspicion in this case given how Bill Cosby has behaved is that while Marty has been aggressive as hell from a PR standpoint, in the background he may have been telling Bill Cosby, we got some problems here.

He may have just been in a deposition where unless Bill Cosby pleaded the fifth, all he could do was object, but he could not protect Bill from being barraged by a seven-hour attack from Gloria.

So, Bill comes out of the deposition, he's annoyed as his attorney, he's annoyed of the advice that Marty is been giving him and he basically says, screw you, I'm going to hire a firm that got mostly prosecutors, former prosecutors in it and I'm going to go on the attack, because I don't like what you're telling me. That is what I think has happened.


BALDWIN: Do you think that we will ever know of what happened or is there all kinds of confidentiality agreement in this?

ROBBINS: I think we're going to know exactly what happened, because I believed based on what this judge has been ruling so far, we're going to see parts of this deposition, and we're going to be see that Gloria went for the jugular. And that Gloria asked about all the other victims. And that Bill Cosby got flustered.

And that she's going after a line of questioning that establishes a pattern and practice. And I bet Gloria pulled out his former deposition that was released and tried to confront him with it.

And I bet that Bill Cosby got really, really, really agitated, because that's what he does. That's why he is not speaking to the press, because he's uncontrollable. And he's emotional. And I think if they release literally just 10 pages of that deposition, you will see a client that becomes unhinge and you will realize based on common sense that the client got control and said to his attorney, you're out, I want somebody different.

BALDWIN: Wow. Harry? Harry, you have said that you would love to have investigated the Cosby cases?

HOUCK: Yes, I would.

BALDWIN: Final question to you, you know, if you had that chance, what would you be looking for?

HOUCK: Well, you know, I mean, you have been talking about me investigating a long time ago.

BALDWIN: Sure. Of course.

HOUCK: Right now, right now, when it's happening, we've got no crime scene, we've got no evidence, and somehow they got to be able to prove that Bill Cosby slipped them a mickey, OK?

[22:45:00] Now, how are they going to prove that? I think the only way they will be able to prove that is if Bill Cosby himself screws up during the deposition.

And if he screws up during the deposition maybe they will have a civil case.


HOUCK: All right?


HOUCK: But, you know, a criminal case is not going to happen.

BALDWIN: We'll see if any of that deposition comes out, to Mel's point.

Thank you all so much, Mark, and Mel, and Harry. I appreciate it.

When we come back here, Jeff Daniels of Steve Jobs, a Newsroom fan explains why his character Bill McEvoy would be a great choice to moderate the next republican debate.


BALDWIN: Steve Jobs taught the world to think different. The iPhone alone has sold more than 700 million. So, it was no surprise that Hollywood is telling his story in Aaron Sorkin Steve Jobs, a move that is creating some controversy. I want you to take a look here tonight.

This is a scene from the film with Michael Fasbender as Steve Jobs, Jeff Daniels as former Apple CEO, John Sculley.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can't put Martian plate on this. We need to put our resources into updating the Apple 2.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: By taking resources from the Mac is failing.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's overpriced.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is no evidence...


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Find the evidence! I'm the world's leading expert on the Mac, John. What is your resume?

[22:50:04] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're issuing contradictory instructions, you're insubordinate, you make people miserable and our top engineers are fleeing to Samsung, Dell, HP, Wall Street doesn't know who is driving the bus.

We've lost hundreds of millions in value. And I'm the CEO of Apple, Steve, that's my resume.


BALDWIN: Joining me now here in studio, I have Jeff Daniels himself who was counting there. What was that, while you're watching the clip.

JEFF DANIELS, ACTOR: There is a list.

BALDWIN: There is a list. Do you remember that?

DANIELS: here is the list. Yes.

BALDWIN: What was it, I mean, talk about an icon, Steve Jobs, and Apple is everywhere. What drew you into this project?

DANIELS: Aaron, Aaron Sorkin.

BALDWIN: The guy you knew pretty well?

DANIELS: Pretty well. I spent three years on Newsroom with him and just love getting to say, in front wait until you see what you get to say, in our Newsroom was true every week.

And when Aaron said, look, I'm doing Jobs, would you like to play John Sculley? I send, yes, then send me this way.

BALDWIN: The character John Sculley, CEO of Apple we said from '83 to '93, he is the man who, and I used this word in particular, ousted Steve Jobs, ousted Steve Jobs. What really happened? What's the real story?

DANIELS: Well, I mean, I think we touch on it. It's murkier than he just fired Steve Jobs. And that's how that John, I think certainly in the movie and in Walter Isakson's book said, that's not kind of -- that's not how it went down, that's how Steve kind of portrayed it.

And it was a betrayal, when John said we're going to stick with the Apple II, and the Mac that you're working on doesn't work, so let it go. I mean, a bad decision.


DANIELS: You know, but at the time, the right one for the company. So, to Steve, that was a betrayal, I mean, a Shakespearean kind of betrayal.

And revenge, and he buried John. And John's reputation was ruined, and he had to fight for years to get it back.

BALDWIN: They've never even really fully repaired?

DANIELS: They didn't. They didn't reconcile. They didn't come back together, and I think that's one of the regrets of John's life.

BALDWIN: And I have -- let me play some sound, this is Sculley himself on you.


JOHN SCULLEY, FORMER APPLE CEO: What I loved about it is that I could recognize Steve in the character even though there is a lot of creative license taken in terms of what actually happened, when, and where.

In the movie I was played by Jeff Daniels, and one of the truly great actors, and I was thrilled to have somebody that talented to play my part.

I think that what he was attempting to do was to have me come across as the older brother, the guy from the East Coast who was kind of, you know, counter balancing the young brilliant genius visionary Steve Jobs, Steve was the intense one, I was the more pragmatic one.


BALDWIN: One of the truly great actors who I am sitting next to according to Mr. Sculley.

DANIELS: I'll take that, and that is high praise from John.

BALDWIN: Nothing, for people going and to seeing the movie, Sorkin himself said this is not a biopic, it's like the difference between a photo and a painting.

Because some critics have pointed out, you know, controversy and accuracies, specifically, Steve Jobs' widow are repeatedly trying to kill the film because of that. Is full of inaccuracies, how do you see it?

DANIELS: First of all, I completely get that there are people against it. Without knowing what was coming, completely understand that.

I hope that if and when they see it, that they kind of see it, you know what, we, at the end of the movie, he is still a creative genius, he loves his daughter, and people like Steve and there are only a handful of them, Henry Ford, Thomas Edison who changed the world, they are complicated brilliant people, and that means strengths and weaknesses good and bad.

It's an honest portrait, yes, we moved things, they didn't say it there, but we're putting it here, and maybe he didn't say this, but we need that from a narrative to tell the story.

It is still Steve and John and others. And if you get hung up on accuracies and go make a documentary and go watch that. We also -- we're taking out the boring parts.

BALDWIN: I'll tell you what's not boring from all of this at Newsroom, and I know it's over, but I can't not look at you and think of your character, and also what we are covering day in and day out with this political campaign, the presidential.

Are you wishing -- are you watching all of this right now on TV, Donald Trump and wishing that this was still happening while your show was still on, because you may have, sir, four more years of the Newsroom.

DANIELS: At times, I wonder what would happen if will McEvoy were covering what's going on right now, and all it proves to me is that nobody was really listening.

We were going -- you might want to pay attention to what's being said in the three years, and then now, we get this. It doesn't matter. People and these people are going to say and do whatever they want to get elected. It doesn't matter, and there is no accountability anymore.

[22:55:03] BALDWIN: Could we have the reality show candidate?

DANIELS: Absolutely. It's a Kardashian world. It's Twitter. Nobody has to back up anything. Nobody has to tell the truth anymore, just say it. Just say it and put it up there, it's true, it was on the internet. I do know this, I'm available.

BALDWIN: You are? What are you talking about...


DANIELS: I'm just saying if there is a republican debate coming up, McEvoy could moderate...

BALDWIN: Oh, my...

DANIELS: ... and I'm just saying -- we may start with fat pigs.

BALDWIN: Steve is an idea.

DANIELS: We may start with fat pigs, and stay on fat pigs for about five minutes. That's McEvoy.

BALDWIN: A pleasure. Jeff Daniels, thank you so much.

DANIELS: Thank you. You bet.

BALDWIN: We'll be right back.


[22:59:55] BALDWIN: We do have some breaking news tonight on the story that we first brought you last night are from the University of Mississippi.

Ole Miss student senators have voted in favor of removing the state flag, which features the symbol of the confederacy.

That is it here for us tonight. I'm Brooke Baldwin. See you back here tomorrow night. AC360 starts now.