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STATE OF THE UNION
Interview With Ohio Governor John Kasich; Interview With Speaker of the House Paul Ryan; Interview With Former Speaker of the House John Boehner; Campaigns Huddle To Remake Debates; Analyzing Jeb Bush's Debate Performance; Hillary Clinton's Rally Interrupted. Aired 9-10a ET
Aired November 1, 2015 - 09:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[09:00:10]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DANA BASH, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Republican revolt. The candidates lash out.
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Nasty and ridiculous questions.
SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R-FL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The bias that exists in the American media.
SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The American people don't trust the media.
BASH: And the party vows payback.
Then, the Governator.
ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER (R), FORMER GOVERNOR OF CALIFORNIA: I'll be back.
BASH: Arnold Schwarzenegger may be replacing Donald Trump on "The Apprentice."
TRUMP: You're fired.
BASH: But he is raising cash for another candidate. And who may surprise you.
And the reluctant speaker embraces his new role.
REP. PAUL RYAN (R-WI), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: We have been too timid for too long around here.
BASH: As his predecessor explains why Paul Ryan finally took the job.
REP. JOHN BOEHNER (R-OH), FORMER SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: He figured out that God has another plan in mind for him.
BASH: Paul Ryan and John Boehner speak out. Plus, the best political team on television will be here with insights
from the campaign trail.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BASH: Hello. I'm Dana Bash here Washington, in for Jake Tapper, where the state of our union is hotly debated.
Wednesday's Republican debate on CNBC is like a political bomb that keeps exploding.
Loud complaints by several candidates led the Republican National Committee to suspend the upcoming GOP presidential debate with NBC, the parent company of CNBC. The campaigns are going to get together tonight to try to figure out their differences and see if they can come up with a plan among themselves of what to do for the next debates.
One Republican, at least, has his own ideas.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Let me lay out a radical proposition. How about if we say, from now on, if you have never voted in a Republican primary in your life, you don't get to moderate a Republican primary debate?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: And joining me now is one of the Republican candidates on the stage last week and will continue to be on the stage, John Kasich, the governor of Ohio.
Governor, thank you so much for joining me.
(LAUGHTER)
BASH: And let's just start with what you heard from Ted Cruz there, the whole idea that, in the future, only Republicans should moderate Republican debates.
GOV. JOHN KASICH (R-OH), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You know, Dana, I'm the governor of the seventh largest state in America, and I have had so many questions thrown at me over the course of my time.
Of course, I was also in Washington for a number of years, where, you know, there's been -- there was a lot of chaos. You know, I'm not really focused on all this stuff, I mean, who should be -- you know, look, here is what I do know.
I know that Harry Truman couldn't get elected president with explaining United States of America's health care plan in 30 seconds. I would prefer to do what you and I did when we were in New Hampshire together, and that's -- that's for you to ask me a lot of questions over a period of time where I could actually explain myself, instead of having to go so quickly to take on complex issues in short periods of time.
BASH: I hear you.
KASICH: But, you know, look, it's too short.
But it's what you deal with. I mean, I'm not going to sit around and criticize everybody. It's just not my style on this thing. I will -- I will criticize programs and plans that I think are goofy, which I did in the last debate, things like shipping 10 or 11 million people out of this country...
(CROSSTALK)
KASICH: ... and some fantasy that we're going to get the Mexican government to pay for the wall, or abolishing Medicare or Medicaid or making it a voluntary program.
I mean, I don't want to attack people.
BASH: Governor...
KASICH: But I am going to attack programs that I think hurt the Republican Party, hurt the conservative movement, and don't put us in a position of where we could actually win an election and turn America around.
BASH: I get all of that. And I appreciate the fact that you want to have substantive discussions. And I enjoyed your -- our time together when we were in Ohio -- I mean, in New Hampshire.
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: But I want to talk specifically about the fact that the Republican electorate is different from the way it had been in the past.
And The Red State, which is a very conservative blog, came after you and said, "For all that people criticize Jeb Bush, Kasich is far and away the candidate in this field who is just utterly clueless about the Republican electorate as a whole. Worse, to the extent that Kasich does understand Republicans, he dislikes them."
What's your response to that, Governor?
KASICH: Well, first of all, nobody has ever been elected from the Republican Party that can't win Ohio. And I don't really care about blogs.
Here's what I want to do. Dana, look...
BASH: You don't care about blogs. Let me just -- let me just -- let me just interrupt for one second.
KASICH: Yes.
BASH: I get that you don't care about blogs, but I think that the reason why I brought that up is because the conservative electorate is -- is, for the most part, in charge of picking the Republican presidential nominee.
[09:05:07]
KASICH: Yes.
BASH: And there are some who look at you and say, you know, he sounds sometimes more like a Democrat than a Republican, and they don't think that you're conservative enough.
KASICH: Well, but, Dana, I balanced budgets. I was the chief architect in Washington. We created jobs. Families were better.
I came to Ohio. We were $8 billion in the hole. Now we're $2 billion in the black. We have lots of school choice. I have cut taxes by more than any sitting governor in America, Republican governor. You know, families are better. Wages are growing faster than the national average. Our credit is strong.
What is there not to like? But, look, here is what my goal is. I not only want to cut taxes and create jobs for families, but ship a lot of programs back home, so that people will be empowered to begin to build our families and our communities, which is about the spirit of our country.
Now, if that's not conservative, you tell me what is.
BASH: This week, the Bush campaign...
(LAUGHTER)
KASICH: It's so silly. Dana, look, I have been a conservative all of my lifetime.
BASH: I'm not -- I'm not the one questioning your conservative credentials.
KASICH: I mean, I tell you this. But, Dana, here's the funny thing.
BASH: It's...
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: ... people who have influence in the Republican primary process.
KASICH: Because I care -- here's the thing. Look, yes, but I'm doing -- I'm doing fine.
Look at my -- look at what I'm doing in New Hampshire. You have been up there with me. I'm doing well in Mississippi. I'm headed there this week, and Alabama. You know, we're gaining a lot of places.
And you know what, though? This Republican Party has to make sure that people know that we care about them. I care about poor people, about people who live in the shadows, about those who are mentally ill or drug-addicted. We have been on this -- these things for five years. And now states are beginning to say, my God, we have got a drug problem in our country. What do we do?
Our people are advising other states about what to do. That is conservatism, to give people a chance to live out their God-given potential. And because some people say they don't like my tone, or because I question abolishing Medicare or Medicaid, that that's not conservative?
Listen, I have a plan to improve Medicare and Medicaid. I have done it in Ohio. To say that we're going to deport 10 or 11 million people and divide families, that's just nutty.
BASH: Governor, let's...
KASICH: That's just not going to happen.
And it will cost us in the fall, because it will not stand.
BASH: Governor, I want to...
KASICH: It will not stand when the light shines.
We have to be reformers. We have to send power back to people. We have to rebuild families and communities and balance our budgets. I can do all of that.
BASH: Governor, to get the nomination, you're probably going to have to, at least in the short-term, do better than, I mean, obviously, all of the candidates, but in the short-term...
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: ... do better than Jeb Bush and Marco Rubio, who tend to sort of fight in your lane in the Republican primary process.
Marco Rubio has been criticized by Jeb Bush, especially in the last debate, for missing lots of votes in the Senate. Marco Rubio says, you know, it's OK.
You served in Congress. Who's right about that?
OK. We're having some technical problems. We are going to get the answer from Governor Kasich about that as soon as we can.
But, in the meantime, we're going to figure out what our gremlins are and -- oh, he is back.
Governor, you are back, I hear.
KASICH: Yes.
BASH: OK.
What I was asking you... KASICH: Yes, I'm back.
(LAUGHTER)
BASH: What I was asking you -- I'm not sure how much you heard. Live television, it's fun, right?
KASICH: Yes.
BASH: I'm not sure how much you heard of what I was asking you.
But on the whole question of Marco Rubio losing or missing votes, being absent from the Senate, you were in Congress. Do you think that that is a problem?
KASICH: Oh, I don't know. I mean, there are too many big issues to talk about, about whether you miss a few votes in the Senate.
What I'm more concerned about is, what is -- what are we going to do to get the economy moving and get power out of Washington? I'm -- I don't consider that to be, you know, something I'm going to focus on at this point, for the simple reason that there's too many other things that are out there that have the potential to turn voters off who don't understand what conservatism and the Republican Party is all about.
BASH: And...
KASICH: I will give you an example, Dana. We have a plan from one of the people who is leading the field that would increase the national debt by $10 trillion.
Now, when you present that to people and say, we're going to put our -- our children $10 trillion more in the hole, who is going to vote for that? That's not conservatism. Conservatism is cutting taxes and cutting government all at the same time to give us a balanced budget.
BASH: Governor...
KASICH: So...
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: Governor, we have got -- we have got to go.
KASICH: Yes.
BASH: But, before we do, I just want to say that you must feel a little bit like the Cheshire -- Cheshire cat, and having that kind of grin, in the fact that the former governor of California took Donald Trump's job on "The Apprentice," but he is out there campaigning for you, or at least raising money for you.
Real quick.
KASICH: Well, here -- yes, he's great. Look, here is the thing. I try not to speak for Arnold, because, if I
do, I may be terminated.
(LAUGHTER)
KASICH: You will have to get it from him.
[09:10:00]
I love him. He's a buddy of mine.
See you, Dana.
BASH: Governor...
KASICH: Sorry for all the trouble. It's Halloween, right? That's why this happened.
BASH: I -- maybe we do have gremlins. I think that's actually a very -- a very good -- a very good point.
Thanks for -- thanks for hanging in with us.
KASICH: Listen, I don't know what the heck happened.
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: All right.
When we come back, meet the man for whom flex time means sleeping at his desk. New House Speaker Paul Ryan reveals his unusual living arrangement.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BASH: Welcome back to STATE OF THE UNION. I'm Dana Bash, in for Jake Tapper.
It was out with the old, in with the new on Capitol Hill this week, as House Speaker John Boehner handed over the gavel to a man 20 years his junior, Paul Ryan.
But is a fresh face enough to unite a deeply divided Republican Party?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BASH: I want to start with talking about big ideas. You speak about the fact that that's what you want to achieve, big ideas, which you're kind of known for...
RYAN: Yes.
BASH: ... kind of, for Medicare and Medicaid, the tax code.
RYAN: Right.
BASH: Immigration reform, you have talked about in the past.
But this is not a place where you can get big ideas done.
RYAN: Oh, I...
BASH: How do you change that?
RYAN: ... completely disagree with that.
BASH: When was the last big idea that...
RYAN: This is the people's house.
BASH: Right.
[09:15:00]
RYAN: This is where people come to serve their country, and, if you don't like the direction the country is headed, that you have an obligation to the people of this country that sent you here to change things.
BASH: That's true historically.
RYAN: Right.
BASH: But how -- in recent years, it hasn't happened?
RYAN: Exactly right.
That's why I said the speakership has to be -- differently. I cannot pick up where John left off. That is why, in discussing this with my House Republican colleagues, we all concluded jointly that this has to be done differently.
So, that's why we're wiping the slate clean. It's a new day. And we're going to go offense on ideas, to be a proposition party, an alternative party. That's where big ideas come from. We have been too timid for too long around here.
And that is because we have not given people a sense of what we can do differently, how we can fix these problems, where we would go if we give them the chance. And that is what we have to do.
BASH: How are you going to control the 40 or so members of that so- called Freedom Caucus in a way that John Boehner couldn't?
RYAN: Well, I think members were frustrated that they did not really have the opportunity to express their own views in -- on the floor.
I think the legislative process has been too tightly controlled and has to be reopened up. I want members of Congress representing their constituents having the ability and the process to actually advance ideas.
So, I think that frustration is frustration that I shared actually as a House Republican before becoming speaker. And I think that's what our members want to see us do more of. And that's why I think I'm in this position.
BASH: Do you think this means the end of the road for any hope of being president?
RYAN: Oh, I don't know. Hope of being president?
BASH: Meaning -- meaning, when you're speaker of the House, it's just -- it's a lot harder.
(CROSSTALK)
RYAN: Yes. That's OK with me. That doesn't really bother me.
I was -- if I really wanted to be president, I would have run in this cycle for the presidency. I had the chance and opportunity to do so. I chose not to do that. So, I'm perfectly happy and content with this decision.
BASH: Let's just look forward now, right now.
There are people who want to defund Planned Parenthood. You have a budget deal in place, thanks to your predecessor, John Boehner. But you still have to fund the government by December 11, or it will shut down. Will you defund Planned Parenthood?
RYAN: Well, this is what I mean when I say being an effective opposition party.
I think being an effective opposition party means being honest with people up front about what it is you can and cannot achieve.
BASH: So, are you going to tell everybody, sorry, guys, we can't defund Planned Parenthood?
RYAN: I think -- I think we need to be very clear about what it is we can and cannot achieve, and not set expectations that we know we can't reach, given the constraints of the Constitution.
But we also have to push issues where we can push issues. We also have to speak truth to power. We have a president that isn't willing to listen, that isn't going to sign lots of our bills into law. We have a Senate that has a very difficult process when it comes to actually getting bills voted on.
And, so knowing that we have those constraints, we have to operate within those constraints.
BASH: What will you say to your caucus about putting a rider in there defunding Planned Parenthood? Will it happen?
RYAN: I don't -- I don't think Planned Parenthood should get a red cent from the taxpayer.
I have always believed that. I voted that way before these disgusting videos came out. But I believe we need to do our oversight. We have -- we're just beginning to start a committee to investigate Planned Parenthood. That's important. So, the special committee on Planned Parenthood, I think, should be in the driver's seat of overseeing this process. But are we going to let...
BASH: But what will you do...
(CROSSTALK)
RYAN: Let me just get you there, Dana. Hang on a second.
BASH: OK.
RYAN: Are we going to let Congress work its will and have amendments come to the process and have regular order, where we have conference committees? Yes.
By not controlling the process so tightly held here, the speakership, by letting it go forward, I don't know what the outcome is going to be.
BASH: You told members of the Freedom Caucus that you were not going to touch immigration reform, something that you worked really hard on. You went out and campaigned with one of the most liberal Democrats in Congress, talking about it.
Do you see any future for actually getting that done? And why did you make that promise if you want to do big ideas?
RYAN: Because this president tried to write the law himself. This president went beyond his separation of powers to try and write the law. Presidents don't write laws. Congress writes laws.
This president tried to go around Congress to unilaterally write immigration law. So, specifically on this issue, you cannot trust this president on this issue. So, why would we want to pass legislation on a very divisive issue with a president we can't trust on this issue?
BASH: You sparked a national debate when you said one of the reasons you didn't want to take this job is because of your work/family balance.
I have to say, though, when I was reporting on that, I got more response on Twitter, on Facebook from friends and family all over the country, saying, you know, wow, this is interesting that he's talking about this. But what's he going to do about it?
RYAN: I don't think that -- that sticking up for being a person with balance in your life, for wanting to spend your weekends in your home with your family, which I work with constituents and my family throughout the weekends, I don't think that's -- I don't think -- I don't think that means, therefore, you should sign up for some...
(CROSSTALK)
RYAN: ... unfunded mandate.
BASH: No, no, and I completely get that.
But I think it's more of the fact that women in particular heard you talking like this, and said, wow, he gets it. Maybe he can do something about it.
And I hear you're saying unfunded mandate, but there are proposals out there to make it work in a way that it's not unfunded.
RYAN: Well, yes, flex time.
[09:20:00]
I think we have had some pretty good legislation on flex time, so that -- and that's a bill I think is a great idea. So, Martha Roby has legislation on giving...
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: And what -- just briefly, what...
(CROSSTALK)
RYAN: The flex time legislation that Martha Roby has proposed is to give families more flexibility in their hours.
BASH: It's more of question of, since you are next generation, you understand how hard it is, because most families, many families who have two parents -- two parents working, to bring the government policies and laws up to date with modern America.
RYAN: That's why I would recommend taking a look at the Roby flex time bill.
BASH: Your office is also your apartment, your bed, your -- the place that you live.
RYAN: Everybody brings this up.
BASH: You're the speaker now. You're really going to still sleep in your office?
RYAN: Yes. I'm just a normal guy.
BASH: Yes, but normal guys don't sleep in their offices.
(LAUGHTER)
RYAN: So, I live in Janesville, Wisconsin, and I commute back and forth every week.
I just work here. I don't live here. So, I get up very early in the morning. I work out. I work until about 11:30 at night. I go to bed. And I do the same thing the next day. It actually makes me more efficient. I can actually get more work
done by sleeping on a cot in my office. I have been doing it for at least a decade, and I'm going to keep doing it.
BASH: OK. Thank you so much.
RYAN: Thanks, Dana.
BASH: Appreciate it, Mr. Speaker.
RYAN: Appreciate it. Thanks, Dana.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BASH: So, who twisted Paul Ryan's arm enough to get him to take the new job? The man he replaced, outgoing Speaker John Boehner, who says he enlisted a higher power to make it happen -- his secret weapon next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[09:25:40]
BASH: Welcome back to STATE OF THE UNION. I'm Dana Bash.
There were, as you might expect, tears, as John Boehner said goodbye to Congress after 25 years.
I sat down for an exclusive interview with the now former speaker of the House on his very last day in office.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BASH: Let's talk about Paul Ryan. To say he was reluctant is an understatement. He flat-out said he did not want this job over and over again.
BOEHNER: And he told me the same thing.
BASH: Yes. And you called him. You tried to -- you successfully tried to convince him to run.
How did you do it? What did you say to him?
BOEHNER: Well, first, I laid every ounce of Catholic guilt I could on him. And...
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: How does that go? Lay some Catholic guilt on me. I want to know what that feels like.
BOEHNER: "You have no choice. This isn't about what you want to do. It's about God wants you to do."
(LAUGHTER) BOEHNER: "And God has told me, he wants you to do this."
BASH: You pulled the God part, huh?
BOEHNER: Oh, I pulled it all out.
(LAUGHTER)
BOEHNER: Listen, Paul was the right guy at the right time. I know he -- knew he didn't want to do it. He kept telling me he didn't want to do it.
But it was obvious to me that he was the right person for the job, and I had to do everything I could to convince him.
BASH: Now, you know full well that doing this job might make it hard to go on to other office, namely, the White House, because you get pretty messy. And...
(CROSSTALK)
BOEHNER: I think he got over that.
BASH: So, do you think it's possible for him to be president?
BOEHNER: Well, I'm not sure that -- I think he would have liked to have been president, but I think he has figured out that God has another plan in mind for him, and it's to be speaker of the House.
BASH: What is the one thing, with all of your experience here, the good, the bad and the ugly, that you want him to keep in mind?
BOEHNER: Be open, be transparent, and be decisive, that they have got -- people have no place else to go, and that when you are the speaker and you're the leader, you have got to make decisions. And then you have to live with the consequences, tough part of the job.
BASH: The budget deal that you struck just this week calls for an increase of $80 billion in federal spending over two years, in exchange for a variety for cuts.
Ted Cruz said: "It's a complete and utter surrender. John Boehner's golden parachute will certainly cement his legacy, but it is a slap in the face to conservatives."
BOEHNER: That's just total nonsense.
This is -- we have got real entitlement reform in this agreement. We have got a big group of members who need more money for our national defense. And all the increases in spending are offset with spending reductions elsewhere in the government.
BASH: To get this agreement done, you had secret talks with the president.
That must not have been easy to do with the president of the United States, because you have had some troubled negotiations in the past.
BOEHNER: We have. But -- but we have a good relationship.
At the end of the day, it's about doing the best we can, considering those things, on behalf of the American people. So, we had a lot of conversations. Some were better than others. The one yesterday was a lot better than the one last week.
BASH: What was the one last week?
BOEHNER: Oh, it was just one of those conversations that just had to happen.
(LAUGHTER)
BASH: You made pretty clear that, in your heart of hearts, you wanted to get immigration reform done. That has to be a regret, that that didn't happen.
BOEHNER: Well, it is, because reforming our immigration system, securing our borders would be good for America.
But, unfortunately, the president just kept poisoning the well, poisoning the well, to the point where it was impossible to put it on the floor of the House.
BASH: But why was it the president, and not the right flank of your own caucus?
BOEHNER: Well, probably some blame there as well, but we could have dealt with that.
BASH: What's going to be the best thing about being a civilian?
BOEHNER: I get to walk up to Starbucks and back by myself.
(LAUGHTER)
BOEHNER: I get to walk to Pete's Diner and back by myself.
BASH: By yourself, meaning without your security?
BOEHNER: Exactly. Oh, I can't wait. I can't wait.
BASH: The other thing I wanted to ask you about was something that I was sort of shocked about, is that you do yoga?
BOEHNER: Yes. I started back...
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: I have known you for a long time. I am having trouble with this image.
BOEHNER: I started July of -- of last year. I was in a yoga class with Paul Ryan and Kristi Noem and some others for a little... BASH: Really?
BOEHNER: Yes, for a little while.
[09:30:00]
BASH: Does it center you also, or is it more about stretching?
BOEHNER: It's more about stretching.
BASH: I get that.
BOEHNER: I'm not a -- I'm not trying to be a yogi here. I just do some yoga.
BASH: Your office released a series of photos. I'm not sure if you saw them, from your time as speaker. And there's one that really, to me, looked like the quintessential Boehner scene. It's this.
BOEHNER: Yes. That looks like me.
BASH: Looking at the view?
BOEHNER: Looking at the view and pondering a little bit. (INAUDIBLE) -- listen, (INAUDIBLE) --
BASH: Do you miss that most, do you think?
BOEHNER: I'll miss the people around here most. We get to do important things. We get to put our fingerprints on the direction of the country, fingerprints on history. But at the end of the day it's the people you meet that make this job so rewarding.
BASH: Mr. Speaker, thank you so much.
BOEHNER: Oh, thank you.
BASH: Good luck with everything.
BOEHNER: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BASH: And coming up, Jeb Bush's secret strategy memo exposed. What it reveals about the campaign's plans to take down Marco Rubio.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[09:35:31]
BASH: The debate over the debate has reached a boiling point. And tonight Republican candidates or at least their campaigns are going to meet to air their grievances and potentially fought and overthrow.
With the now a Republican strategist, Ben Ginsberg, who will facilitate at that meeting. Congresswoman Marsha Blackburn, Republican of Tennessee. Keith Ellison, Democrat of Minnesota. And Neera Tanden, president for the Center for American Progress.
Thank you all for being here. Appreciate it, especially morning after Halloween.
Ben I got to start with you. Later today you're going to be in the super secret place and you're going to be talking to all the campaigns and trying to help them figure out how to deal with their -- the fact that they're upset about this debate. What are you going to tell them?
BEN GINSBERG, FORMER NATIONAL COUNSEL, ROMNEY FOR PRESIDENT: Well, I'm going to tell them you need to figure out what to do. There have been problems with the first three debates and to see what the campaigns wants to do. But it's their meeting and their agenda and their debates.
BASH: And for people who don't understand because it's a little bit kind of inside baseball but it's really boiled over, historically, at least the past couple of election cycles, the campaigns have all kind of come together and helped to organize who gets the debates. This year the Republican National Committee took over.
GINSBERG: Yes.
BASH: So, are you going to recommend that the candidates take it back?
GINSBERG: Well, I'm not -- I will not be in the position of making recommendations but rather listening to the campaigns. But I was lucky enough to be able to negotiate for three of the four last cycles. And there are some lessons to be learned from those and procedures to take...
BASH: For example?
GINSBERG: ...which I'll talk to them.
Well, as you mentioned in past cycles it was the campaigns themselves who talked to the sponsors. To (ph) institutional matter if you issue a schedule beforehand and promise debates to news media organizations, you've lost some leverage. So, that loss of leverage is something that I -- the campaigns want to talk about, we'll talk about.
BASH: And Congresswoman, the other Republican here, you heard Senator Cruz say that -- well, only Republicans should moderate Republican debates. I mean, just on its face (ph) so every reporter is supposed to show their voter registration? I think most reporters are not affiliated with a political campaign or --
REP. MARSHA BLACKBURN (R), TENNESSEE: Well, I found it so interesting. I think Reince was correct in sending the letter "NBC." That debate was over the top.
But there again you look at, Dana, people just want answers to questions. They want to see how these candidates react with one another. They want to see how they respond under pressure. I think that they just need to realize the media is not going to be with them. They need to go over the top. Talk directly to the American people, reconstruct their answers and just kind of get over it and move on.
BASH: You're shaking your head.
REP. KEITH ELLISON (D), MINNESOTA: The media is not with anybody. The fact is --
BLACKBURN (ph): Oh, come on.
ELLISON: The media is neutral. The media is neutral. And I think that it's a --
BLACKBURN (ph): No, no, no.
ELLISON: ...it's a conservative tactic to accuse the media of being liberal in hopes that they will overcompensate and be conservative.
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: Hold on. Can I -- can I just say that you are a supporter of Hillary Clinton. I'm guessing Hillary Clinton would not say that the media are conservative the way that she is.
NEERA TANDEN, PRESIDENT AND CEO, CENTER FOR AMERICAN PROGRESS: I think Hillary has been attacked by a lot of media over the years.
So, you know, I just think it's interesting that people want to be leaders of the free world, say they can take on Putin, say they can take on these various -- the leaders around the world and are really concerned about the political affiliations of the debate (INAUDIBLE) questioners.
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: I want to move -- I want to move -- I want to move on to the actual contest and not talk about the media for the whole time.
It's been a tough week for Jeb Bush. Marco Rubio, I think even he admits now, got the better of him in the debate last week -- this past week. On Friday we learned that a very prominent billionaire who can raise a lot of money went and backed Marco Rubio. I spoke with Bush right after the "CNBC" debate. Here is what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: A friend of mine, Ana Navarro, just said on air that she's feeling glum tonight because of the performance that you had -- the performance that Marco (ph) --
BUSH: I'm running for president of the United States.
BASH: How do you win them back?
BUSH: I'm running for president of the United States. I'm running with heart. I'm not a performer. If they're looking for an entertainer in chief I'm probably not the guy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: Ben, I'm going to throw it to you. Is Jeb Bush toast?
GINSBERG: No, he's not toast. But in a central part of the debates to be able to get to your (INAUDIBLE) policies is to be able to master the performance arts of the debates.
[09:40:02]
So, Governor Bush needs to do that. Besides from that there's another debate on November 10th or at least on (ph) schedule. And he'll have the chance to do it again.
So, we ought not get too wrapped up in precisely what happens here.
BASH: But beyond the debate just in terms of the campaign -- look, he was supposed to be the front-runner. He was supposed to have the money. He was supposed to be the juggernaut and he's not.
(CROSSTALK)
BLACKBURN: A lot of it is about timing.
GINSBERG: Exceeding expectations in Iowa and New Hampshire. They've done a terrific job of setting the expectations game where they can do that.
(CROSSTALK)
ELLISON: Bush has a content problem -- he has a content problem.
He's not talking about anything that animates the American people. He's failed on immigration reform. He's backed off on so many critical things. He's not a problem solver and it's showing and he's losing.
BLACKBURN: Well, people have natural constituencies and issues that they are known for. And Bush has a problem in addition to kind of being the guy in the middle on all of that, it is about timing. He is an establishment Republican. This is an outsider year. The nominee is going to be an outsider. It is not going to be establishment.
BASH: So, it won't be Marco Rubio?
BLACKBURN: I don't think Marco is considered an establishment sort of guy.
I think he has come here and he has fought through the Senate. Ted Cruz has fought through the Senate. Carson and Trump are outsiders.
ELLISON: He's a --
(CROSSTALK)
ELLISON: ...Republican who came in in 2010.
BASH: Well, he came in on the Tea Party wave but --
(CROSSTALK)
BLACKBURN: A big -- a big idea guy and that's what the American people want, big ideas.
ELLISON: ...appealing to that right wing base. I don't -- I think he's not a -- he's not a mainstream Republican at all.
BASH: Neera, I just want to say that I have heard from a lot of Democrats privately who say that they are most concerned about Marco Rubio in a head-to-head with Hillary Clinton for lots of reasons but mostly just the generational. It's Barack Obama all over again.
TANDEN: I think that could play both ways. I think immigration is a great issue. And in moment where people are yearning for authentic candidates who really say what they believe this is a challenge for Marco Rubio.
He had a position where he was a leader on immigration reform, working across the aisle. Thinking it was going to help him probably win an election. But then the Republican base moved very far right and he took the 180-degree position from where he was.
So, I think that's a real challenge for him. I think Republican voters may be concerned about that level of inauthenticity for at a time when --
(CROSSTALK)
BLACKBURN: I think he's very authentic.
GINSBERG: This is...
(CROSSTALK)
GINSBERG: ...taken her detour from where she was.
ELLISON: People like authenticity...
(CROSSTALK)
ELLISON: ... a flip flopper --
BLACKBURN: No. He is not a flip flopper. What (ph) he (ph) just (ph) said (ph)...
ELLISON: He sure is.
BLACKBURN: ...is (ph) he (ph) realizes (ph) you have to do this incrementally. And you have to work --
BASH: Congresswoman, do you think he will get the nomination with his immigration -- BLACKBURN: I think that Marco Rubio could get the nomination just as
it could be Trump or Carson or Cruz.
BASH: Despite his position on immigration?
BLACKBURN: Because he has said, look, you need to do this in a thoughtful way and you need to come (ph) -- he is where the House has been for 10 years. Secure the border first. Work through these issues --
BASH: I'm going to ask you guys to hold your thoughts because we actually have a lot more to talk about on the Democratic side.
ELLISON: All right.
BASH: And we are going to talk about that with regard to Hillary Clinton. She was interrupted on stage by protesters from Black Lives Matter. What did she say to them? The answer is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[09:47:40]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLINTON: Now, my friends, I am going to get to some very important points that actually prove that black lives do matter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: Welcome back. That was Hillary Clinton disrupted by a group of protesters from Black Lives Matter.
Joining me now again is our panel. And I want to start with you, congressman.
You know, the Black Lives Matter movement has gained such potency in the Democratic primary process. Their conversations with Bernie Sanders really do seem -- the guy that you've endorsed -- really do seem to have made a difference in his policies.
What do you think about their tactics like this, doing what they did?
ELLISON: You know, when some white pastors wrote Martin Luther King when he was in the Birmingham jail and said we like your -- we like your goals but we don't like your tactics, he wrote back at them a document that's known as the letter for Birmingham jail.
BASH: Sure.
ELLISON: In which he said to them, you know, of course you don't like my tactics. Of course it would be nice if this was so pristine and all comfortable but change happens in a disruptive way.
You know, I talked to these young people last night on the telephone. One of them is from Minneapolis. Her name is (INAUDIBLE). BASH: These people who were at this Hillary Clinton event?
ELLISON: Yes. Absolutely. And they told me it's not -- they're not against Hillary and they're certainly not against Bernie Sanders, but they expect that these folks are going to listen to them. But it's hard to break into the conversation. And it's hard to get beyond platitudes. And they want a plan. They want meaningful change.
When they saw that young woman get flipped in that chair, when they saw Sandra Bland get yanked out of the car, they feel that. I feel that. And I'm telling you that people -- it's an urgent moment and they just don't feel that they can afford to just play by the traditional, nicey nice rules. They got to be heard.
BASH: And I mean -- and they are making a difference...
ELLISON: They are making a difference.
BASH: ...with their tactics. They are being heard.
BLACKBURN: I think the conversation needs to be all lives matter whether it's black lives or (INAUDIBLE) infant lives or --
ELLISON: I don't think you understand.
BLACKBURN: Look what happened with CMS putting out the Medicare rule on Friday afternoon that they couldn't get it in the bill in 2009. And now they're going to pay physicians for counseling elderly on end of life.
[09:50:06]
ELLISON: When you say all lives matter...
BLACKBURN: All lives matter.
ELLISON: ...you are ignoring centuries of an institutionalized American racism. You have to --you cannot ignore the fact that in your own state -- I mean, it was segregation. It was racism.
BLACKBURN: All lives matter.
ELLISON: It was slavery -- of course they do. The Black Lives Matter -- Black Lives Matter movement is saying black lives matter also. Black lives matter too.
TANDEN: Yes. It is literally -- it is literally -- I mean, I think the problem with this it's like going to a breast cancer rally and saying all cancers matter. It's like you're ignoring the reality that African-Americans are disproportionately -- a lot of people are affected by this but African-Americans have been disproportionately affected by police brutality. And we have to address that problem.
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: Do you think that Hillary Clinton is -- and really all of the Democratic candidates are getting it now?
(CROSSTALK)
TANDEN: Yes. And actually Hillary rolled out policies -- she'll continue to do that.
And truthfully what I find distressing is that this is an issue just for Democrats. Both Democrats and Republicans should talk about this.
ELLISON: Absolutely right.
TANDEN: If you want to lead the whole country you have to talk to the whole country.
BASH: What do you think about --
(CROSSTALK)
TANDEN: And I hope that we will have less (ph) polarizing debate in the Republican Party about this issue.
BASH: Should the black vote just be left to Democrats or should Republicans --
(CROSSTALK)
GINSBERG: Well, I think -- I think Marsha is right. I think this is about all lives matter in the context of all lives matter, black lives matter too and so the Republican candidates will end up discussing that in the context of the debate. If it becomes highly politicized, in other words this is a Democratic movement to beat up on Republicans and the effectiveness and the change that you want is going to fade away. And --
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: But right now they're beating (ph) up on Democrats.
TANDEN: No, they're not going to Republicans. I think we should go to all presidential candidates. But I actually thought -- I think it's important that people protest, raise these issues, the level of consciousness. There are now Republicans of good will who were talking about criminal justice reform. That is a great thing. The Koch brothers are now recognizing it. They're far beyond --
(CROSSTALK)
BLACKBURN: Crime is a problem -- crime is a problem, yes. But when you look at all lives matter we need to talk about how we protect life and recognize the sanctity of life in this country.
BASH: We're going to have to end it there. Fascinating discussion to all of you. Thank you so much for coming in.
And after the break was the 2000 presidential election rigged? Candidate interview -- excuse me -- candid new interviews 15 years later with the insiders led the Florida recount.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[09:56:59]
BASH: They say truth is stranger than fiction. And no one could have scripted an election like the cliffhanger that featured George W. Bush, Al Gore, and the infamous hanging chads. Fifteen years after the recount that divided the nation CNN's Gloria Borger looks back at what happened inside the smoke filled rooms and the Supreme Court.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GLORIA BORGER, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST (voice-over): A well respected Tallahassee lobbyist with ties to Jeb Bush and a long history in Republican politics Mac Stipanovich became Katherine Harris' brain.
JOHN "MAC" STIPANOVICH, SENIOR ADVISER TO KATHERINE HARRIS: I explained to her (INAUDIBLE) this is over. And then we're going to be loathed by the media for the rest of our lives and through the lives of our grandchildren.
That's not what's important here today. We're going to elect the president of the United States. We get all the rest of the stuff (ph).
BORGER: As Americans watch the partisans duke it out daily (ph) on live TV, behind the scenes Mac was plotted the Republican path to victory.
STIPANOVICH: I called the senior staff together and I said we're not going to break any laws but I want you to forget about the (INAUDIBLE) laws. We're going to bring this election (INAUDIBLE) and we're going to fight them tooth and nail, house to house, hand to hand. And we were going to hold Florida unless they sent in federal troops.
BORGER: He knew exactly what he had to do, stop recounting votes and preserve Bush's election night lead no matter how small.
STIPANOVICH: We actually believed the result was right. I said George Bush has won this election and it is our job to make it so. And we're going to rapidly as possible close off any option, any path that could be followed that produces any result other than that one. People (INAUDIBLE) appalled, oh my God. (INAUDIBLE). They stole the election. No, we won the election.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BASH: I mean, wow. Gloria joins me now. The candor there.
BORGER: Right.
BASH: It's just amazing the way you pulled that out of him.
BORGER: Here's the thing and every one we interviewed it kind of helps to have 15 years. We live in the spin zone, right? We cover politics day to day. When you have that kind of a distance, you talk to Democrats about what happened during recount, they were astonishingly candid with me about the mistakes that they believe they made during the recount. And Republicans, including Mac Stipanovich, James Baker who ran the whole recount strategy talked about their clear message, their clear game plan. Why they won and what they thought team Gore did wrong. So, with a little bit of reflection and a lot of time people are, believe it or not, honest, Dana, right? And that's kind of something we're not used to as we cover day to day politics.
BASH: (INAUDIBLE) I bet you the Democrats are saying is there a statue of limitations --
BORGER: Right. And the Democrats say one of them said, you know what? We brought a knife to a gunfight.
[10:00:02]
BASH: Gloria, thank you so much. Can't wait to see it. You can watch the full story of the (INAUDIBLE) 2000 election tomorrow night, 9:00 p.m. right here on CNN. Do not miss it.
I'm Dana Bash in Washington.
"FAREED ZAKARIA GPS" starts right now.
