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Donald Trump Attacks Ben Carson; Peshmerga Forces Declare Victory Over the Militants. Aired 11-11:59p ET
Aired November 16, 2015 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[23:00:02] DON LEMON, CNN HOST: 11:00 p.m. here in New York. 5:00 Tuesday morning in Paris.
Our breaking news, the manhunt is on for the eighth terror suspect still on the loose tonight.
And in a new video, ISIS vows to strike again in Europe and to attack the United States, specifically targeting Washington, D.C.
This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.
Also word of new airstrikes tonight against the ISIS controlled city of Raqqa in Syria.
Let's get the very latest on the terror investigation in France. Out CNN senior international correspondent is Fredrick Pleitgen. He joins us now from Paris.
So Fred, three days have passed since these attacks have happened. The whole world has been rattled. What's the mood in Paris tonight?
FRED PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I would say, Don, it's really a mixed bags of feelings. It certainly is very emotional. There's a lot of concern, but there is also a lot of defiance. There's a lot of people on the streets in Paris that come up to us and say, look, we are not going to allow our way of life to be changed by terrorists. We are not going to be intimidated by terrorists and we are not going to allow our freedom to be taken away.
Then you have the French president who came out and said that France would mount a very strong response. He said that they would expand their airstrikes in Syria. He apparently did so overnight. Has had additional airstrikes. He has called for emergency measures to be extended by three months and for 5,000 additional personnel among France's paramilitary force to make sure things don't happen like they did last Friday here in the streets of Paris and in other places as well.
But also, you can really feel that people really are -- I wouldn't say afraid, but certainly very concerned. These some people who are taking extra precaution when they go out. Some people still who go out as little as possible. And then, for instance, in the night on Sunday, you had people who were gathering here for a peaceful demonstration, for mourning here. And then all of a sudden, someone made some sort of move and a panic was set off. So you can really feel how people are concerned, how the city is still also very much on the edge, Don.
LEMON: Fredrick, take us deeper inside the investigation tonight. You talked about it a little bit. Let's talk more, even including this eighth suspect, so to speak.
PLEITGEN: Yes, absolutely. And that manhunt is still going on. His name is Salah Abdeslam. And he has been searched for basically for about the past I would about 36 hours since the French police and the Belgium police came out and issued an international arrest warrant. And there have been some raids going on. Some of those took place in Belgium in the town of Mullenbach. It went on for about an hour and a half throughout the past that they bought 12 hours ago. That in the end, the police there say they did not apprehend him.
One of the things about him, of course, is that the police had actually him in custody. He was driving on a road that leads to Belgium from France. Police took him into custody after all of this had taken place. However, they released him then. Now, the French have also cast a very wide dragnet, as well. There were more than 150 raid that's took place in the early morning hours of Monday. I was actually at the scene of one of those raids and they discovered what they say was an arsenal of weapons in one place, including a rocket launches, AK-47s, as well as handguns. So certainly some discoveries being made.
And then, of course, Don, we are also finding out more and more about the attackers who were killed. We are finding out their identities. We are finding out that some of them were from Belgium, some of them were from sort districts here in Paris. I was home of the one of the attackers yesterday. And of course, the people were there absolutely shocked -- Don.
LEMON: Were any of these men on U.S. watch lists?
PLEITGEN: Well, it appears as though they weren't. The information that we are getting here from - at CNN from counterterrorism sources that apparently none of them were from any - on any watch lists. And that, of course, is something, Don, that does cause somewhat of a concern, that these people were not in any way monitored, that the so far apparently list. But we are hearing also communications with them. And of course, intelligence officials are going to be going over intercepts. They are be going over what people calls signals intelligence, seeing if they could pick up any sort of chatter between these terrorists that may have happened prior to the attack. Apparently at this point, there really isn't very much. And then, of course, there is a question who else was involve in this plot here in Europe who might still be in large. Maybe a bombmaker, maybe one of the planners. At this point in time, it's not clear how much authorities know yet, but from what we gather, they weren't on any major watch lists -- Don.
LEMON: Fredrick Pleitgen, reporting from Paris tonight. Thank you, Fredrick.
Survivors of the Paris attacks are slowing coming to the grips of the loss of loved ones and friends and knowing that they came so close to losing their own lives, as well.
CNN's Poppy Harlow talks tonight with one survivor who describes a hellish scene. And I have to warn you that some of the video we are about to see is graphic.
POPPY HARLOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Pierre's hand still tremble when he remembers the horror.
PIERRE, SURVIVED ATTACKS AT BATACLAN CONCERT HALL: Those guns -- like -- and you just see all the people falling to the floor with all the blood. They are just -- they are just, like, 17 years old or 20. So young. Black ones, white ones.
[23:05:15] HARLOW: He can't believe he is alive sitting next to me recounting some of the most terrifying hours of his life.
PIERRE: I feel for the first time that happy to be alive.
HARLOW: You feel guilty that you survived?
PIERRE: Of course.
HARLOW: Did you see any of the gunmen?
PIERRE: The terrorists? Yes. But the guns, they just, like, like -- (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
HARLOW: They did not have masks on?
HARLOW: Like so many others in the Bataclan that night, he thinks nothing of the first shot.
PIERRE: At the beginning, I felt it was just a joke.
PIERRE: That a part of the show.
HARLOW: And when did you realize?
PIERRE: When you saw all those guys just falling on the floor and to blow everywhere. And everybody is just praying and --
HARLOW: Did being in the bathroom save your life?
PIERRE: (SPEAK FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
HARLOW: You were in the bathroom with three people.
PIERRE: (SPEAK FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
HARLOW: Behind you? PIERRE: Behind the door.
HARLOW: Just minutes later, he sees the terrorist's feet through the crack of the door.
You heard them preparing a bomb and talking about the hostages.
HARLOW: How long did you hide in the bathroom?
PIERRE: Two hours and a half.
HARLOW: Two-and-a-half excruciating hours before police barge in?
When did you finally come out?
PIERRE (through translator): When the SWAT team launched the raid, they started shooting at the door. They started shooting it everyone. The terrorists responded by shooting back and they blew themselves up and everything exploded. The lights went down. There was smoke everywhere. And then we understood it was the police so we opened the door. And they put the gun to my forehead.
HARLOW: The police?
PIERRE: Yes, yes. And we were like this.
HARLOW: Finally, after the police came in, you walked over corporates, you walked over dead bodies?
PIERRE (through translator): The concert hall floor was covered in bodies, blood, blood on the walls, blood everywhere. It's a fabric, bags, it is the apocalypse. It is the apocalypse.
HARLOW: Two of his friends died in the attack. Walking out alive, he has one thought.
PIERRE: You have to love everybody. We have to love to differences. We have to smile. That's how I'll fight against a terrorists.
CNN's Poppy Harlow reporting from Paris. We appreciate that.
Now, ahead, leaders of ISIS release new video vowing new attacks on Europe and on the United States. And the Paris attacks are having - already having an impact on the GOP presidential race. That's next.
[23:11:35] LEMON: Manhunt is on for the eighth suspected terrorist in the deadly Paris attacks. There is some anger at the attacks as some of directed as mosques here at home. And they are receiving some threats. So joining me now to talk about that is Hatem Jabar. He is a
volunteer at the Islamic Society of St. Petersburg, Florida, and Hassan Shibly, chief executive director of the Florida branch of the Council on American Islamic Relations. We call it CAIR.
So you guys got this threatening expletive filled message on the voice mail of the Islamic society. And you say that you had to listen to it three times. Let's take a bit of a listen and then we'll talk about it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are tired of your (bleep) and I'm (bleep) personally have a militia that is going to come down to your Islamic society of Pinellas county and firebomb you and shoot whoever is there on-site in the head and I don't care if they're two years old or 100. I am over your (bleep) and our whole country is -- come find me, please. Please report me. Because I would love, love it. You're going to (bleep) die.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Hatem, what did you think when you first heard it?
HATEM JABAR, VOLUNTEER, ISLAMIC SOCIETY OF ST. PETERSBURG, FLORIDA: I was shocked. It took listening to it three times to really absorb the full meaning and context. And, you know, immediately after listening to it for three times I realized the severe threat of the situation.
LEMON: Did you -- would you like to say something back to that caller?
JABAR: The only thing that I would like to say to him would be just to clear up any misconceptions he might have about Islam and about Muslims in general. Apparently, he is, you know, one of the rare cases, somebody who doesn't have any information on Islam and just needs to really be informed so that way he can feel more at ease and comfortable with, you know, Muslims in general.
LEMON: Did you report it at all?
JABAR: Yes. I reported it that morning, the following morning I reported it after morning prayer. I also sent it to Hassan at CAIR and let him advise us as to what to do with the situation. And I also reported it to the other mosque in our county to let them know that there is a potential threat, somebody who is threatening, you know, to kill anybody from two years old to a hundred years old, he didn't care. So I wanted him to be aware of the threat.
LEMON: What did he say to you? Do you feel like he took it seriously? And what was the response?
JABAR: Yes, absolutely, they took it seriously. And, you know, immediately, warned the members of that congregation, as well. They also informed the police and had a report taken just like we did. And, you know, again, we were working with Hassan at CAIR. And you know, he was taking care of other legal issues for us as well regarding the matter.
LEMON: Your family has been in the U.S. for a long time. Your grandfather came here in the Middle East before World War I. You were born here. I would imagine you consider yourself as American as anyone else.
JABAR: Yes, absolutely. I mean, you know, this is the country I call home. I've been here all my life. And this is probably where -- this is where I will die, you know, and be buried. So this is my home. I don't see anywhere else in the world as, you know, being my home.
[23:15:05] LEMON: Hassan, your group, CAIR, asking for the caller to be charged with a hate crime. Do you consider this message terrorism?
HASSAN SHIBLY, CAIR-FLORIDA CHIEF EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR: Absolutely, it's a form of terrorism. In fact, my contacts in the department of justice confirmed this guy is a terrorist. He sent a message with the intent of terrorizing the good people who attend Hatem's mosque and the Muslims of Florida. That's un-American. It's disgusting. It's horrific. We cannot allow enemies abroad to divide us here at home. There is no room for that violent rhetoric in our civil society. And he needs to be held accountable to the fullest extent of the law. And we have full faith in the department of justice that they will bring charges against him and hold him accountable to send a clear message that we will not tolerate that kind of incitement to violence in our great nation here.
LEMON: Hassan, I have to ask you. When you look at what happened to Paris, people often say moderate Muslims don't do enough to speak out against this kind of radicalism, this twisted interpretation of Islam. I hear it every single time. I'm sure you get tired of hearing that. But what do you feel about this incident in Paris?
SHIBLY: I mean, the incident was horrific. It's disgusting. It's horrific. It hurts us all as human beings. But we cannot blame entire populations for the criminal acts of a few. I mean, there are some white supremacists that say these moderate blacks are (INAUDIBLE) or these moderates Christians aren't doing enough against the KKK.
You can't blame an entire group of people for the horrible acts of a few. And, unfortunately, what we're seeing in Florida is an increase in hate crimes. Over this weekend, my office has dealt with about half a dozen cases this past weekend where people were violently targeted, frankly, because of their religious identity.
No one should have to fear being targeted because of his race or religion in Maria. That is not what America is about. What makes America so great is that it's a place where all people, regardless of race and religion, should be welcome and have equal opportunity under the law.
LEMON: What do you say to people who have these negative feelings about mosques, those who pray there? What would you tell them?
SHIBLY: Get to know your fellow Americans who happened to share the Muslims faith. We are going to be means we are all Americans and together we can make America remain the best nation on the face of this earth. We can work for a society where children -- people, regardless of their race or religion can go wherever they want without fear of intimidation or harassment. America is one of the best places in the world to be a practicing Muslim or Jewish person or an atheist because of the constitution and because of the great liberties that make America wonderful. But when we turn against each other and when we allow terrorist to turn us against each other, in a sense, we're letting them win and we are giving up the liberties that make America so great. Let's stand united as Americans.
LEMON: Thank you, Hassan. Thank you, Hatem. I appreciate you coming on CNN. Thank you very much.
LEMON: Joining me now is Douglas Brinkley, CNN presidential historian and Buck Sexton, national security editor at the Blaze who is a former -- also a former CIA agent.
So Mr. Brinkley, you know, we just heard from Hassan there. He is concerned about the anti-Muslims backlash here in the United States and beyond. There is some precedent for that kind of things, isn't there?
DOUGLAS BRINKLEY, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Well, according to Hassan, just think of World War II when we had anti-Japanese sentiments or, you know, had (INAUDIBLE) camps with FDR. I mean, at times of war, we are at war with ISIS now, people will tend to overreact and be very cautious about homeland security. So I think this is going to be a big issue on the campaign trail. How can we be a democratic country that embraces the Muslim faith, but doesn't allow more Muslim immigrants into the United States at this moment in time?
LEMON: Buck, you know, this morning on MSNBC, Donald Trump said the U.S. must resume heavy surveillance of mosques. And as president he said he would consider shutting down some mosques. Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I would hate to do it, but it's something you're going to have to strongly consider because some of the ideas and some of the hatred, the absolute hatred is coming from these areas.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: What do you think?
BUCK SEXTON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, there are mosques that actually have been under surveillance for very good reason in this country. There are mosques that have been tied to large terrorist attacks, including in this country, and abroad. To paint with a broad brush, though, and say that an entire faith should be under scrutiny --
LEMON: And that's problematic. SEXTON: That's problematic. By the way, the British are considering
shutting down problematic mosques, as well. That's an open policy discussion that is happening over there right now because of the level of radicalism in some specific sites and some specific times.
There are guidelines. For example, in New York City, the NYPD intelligence division where I used to work. There are the hand-shoe guidelines to try to make sure they protect first amendment rights, right for free expression and religion while also being able to look into what is going on at the same time. Because there has been plotting that has happened in mosques on U.S. soil that have led to very serious attacks including the first world trade center attack, by the way, harshly involving people from Mosque in Brooklyn.
So this is not some unthinkable thing. And if you're looking at what counterterrorism units across the country are focusing on, they don't spend a lot of time surveiling (INAUDIBLE) or Presbyterians. Unfortunately, there is a cross section here where you tend to have more of these terrorist acts that are planned in mosques than in --
[23:20:00] LEMON: You're talking about, you know, the Brits or the UK, that's quite different than the United States where we have freedom of religion here.
SEXTON: Absolutely. But I'm saying they are trying to find ways to deal with the mosques that is the out liar that is the hot bed of radicalism because they do exist. And in some cases in the UK, they openly advocate overthrowing the government. People that even come and claim asylum say that well, this is great. Let's finally --
LEMON: This has nothing to do with my question about Donald trump Saying --
SEXTON: Well, there are policy options that people have to consider for dealing with radicalism when it does center around the certain location. And there have been instances in this country of very serious terror plots that were in fact largely centered around certain mosques.
LEMON: Doug, I hear you want to get in on this?
BRINKLEY: Yes. Look, we're not going to starting targeting mosques in the United States. We're not going to shut down Dearborn in Michigan. This is just overheated rhetoric. Emotions are high because of Paris right now and you have Ted Cruz and Donald Trump, both of those two in particular trying to out-red meat each other all the time and it's sad.
They're scapegoating Muslim Americans. It's heinous. President Obama today kind of ear marked that, pointed out to us that this is not the United States at its best. We have people wanting to be refugees over here and we're trying to do religious litmus tests on them at this moment in time. So this will be a big issue. I think in the campaign of Obama and Trump, but I don't think it's going to be big in national election. SEXTON: I just I think its strange now. In the aftermath of the
Paris attacks we're spending so much time here talking about a backlash that tends not to ever happen by the way. Terroristic threats are wrong. And people shouldn't do it. They are illegal. They also happen to friends of in media. People threaten to kill people over social media, over email all the time, OK. This is not something new as I'm sure other people in this building and anywhere else in the media can attest to. That doesn't make it OK, but let's not all pretend that this is something that is unique to only in Muslim and Muslim groups in this country.
And on top of that, we have a very real threat from the Islamic state saying that they want to hit us here the same way they just hit Paris. Every expert you have on here, all my former colleagues in the CIA, all my colleagues in the NYPD intelligence will tell you that is a very real threat and we're so focused, again, as always, on the backlash that never seems to come. I just don't understand where we are always so worried about this backlash. We don't do that. We're America. There is --
LEMON: But having -- Because some knuckle head on social media makes some, you know, empty threat. It's quite different.
SEXTON: It's not always an empty threat. We are talking about the first amendment. And by the way, sometimes from members of the Islamic community who say that they have ties to the Islamic state will come after people and say that they are going to kill them. I think that is threat you take seriously when you are talking about the Koran and criticism of Islam.
So this comes from both sides. I do think the much more urgent issue is how we prevent the next attack, not whether people are going to have hurt feelings or there's going to be this backlash which, again, does not tend to happen.
BRINKLEY: Nothing will please ISIS more than for Americans to start turning on American Muslims. That's what they want us to do. They are recruiting from American Arab populations that are filing misanthropic here in the United States. So we need to remind people we are the city on the hill. That we are about religious liberty that, you know, the words of Thomas Jefferson and others mean something. We have to put on our Americanism --
SEXTON: This is a strong argument. No one is saying that people should ever prosecute Muslim this country. And by the way, a lot of people that go to join the Islamic state do so because they believe in the ideology --
LEMON: Donald Trump just said that. He was going to --
BRINKLEY: Donald Trump is leading the Republican Party right now.
SEXTON: Donald Trump said there should be some mosque surveillance, which is broader than I think he should have said --
LEMON: But there are people saying we should percent cute Muslims. Let's not --
BRINKLEY: Saying we should percent cute all Muslim necessary this country.
SEXTON: However, we do have there is a serious threat that comes from within of Islam and all the focus of this is going to be so rough on the Islamic community in this country I think shows people that they are not focusing on the big issue which is how to prevent the next attack.
LEMON: I think people are concern -- hang on, Douglas. I think people are concerned. We shouldn't call it whining because there are many people who have legitimate concerns about the backlash, about the anti-Muslim.
SEXTON: The FBI is on it. Every time there's a threat against a mosque -- I absolutely agree with that, but I think this is now the focus turns too --
LEMON: Well, let's turn to the focus that you would like to discuss right now, since we have exercised this enough, I believe, in this particular segment.
So Douglas Brinkley, the president was asked today about criticism of his ISIS strategy. Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Folks want to pop off and have opinions about what they think they would do. Present a specific plan. If they think that somehow their advisers are better than the chairman of my joint chiefs of staff, and the folks who are actually on the ground, I want to meet them. And we can have that debate. But what I'm not interested in doing is posing or pursuing some notion of American leadership or America winning or whatever other slogans are -- they come up with that has no relationship to what is actually going to work to protect the American people. And to protect people in the region who are getting killed and to protect our allies and people like France. I'm too busy for that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So Doug, were you surprised to hear him take his domestic critics on like that in the middle of a big summit abroad, the G-20?
BRINKLEY: I was because it was a summit abroad. I would expect him to do that here in the United States. But it tells you he's very sensitive and very raw. Europe is very emotionally distraught place right now and I think the president is sick of seeing people demagogue on just bomb Syria back to the stone aged. Throw in Americans troops and everything will be OK. Eradicate ISIS. Everybody hates ISIS. It's a question of strategy of containment that we have to do and a strategy of eventual eradication. But this kind of an operation is going to take years and people want something to happen immediately. We are very impatient in the United States.
SEXTON: You have 250,000 people -- sorry.
LEMON: Go ahead.
BRINKLEY: You don't have to keep interrupting people. We can have a dignified debate on television. You know, but I think the president is -- is simply frustrated like everybody is what to do in Syria and it's going to play out in the campaign. But I think the recent comments of Ted Cruz and Trump and even Rubio, the son of an immigrant from Cuba not pointing any --
LEMON: Coming up, a direct threat to the U.S. in the aftermath of the Paris attack, how do we prepare for the possibility of an attack here at home? The experts have some answers. That's next.
[23:31:04] LEMON: I'm back now to talk with our guest.
Joining me now is Benjamin Haddad, Juliette Kayyem, Mubin Shaikh, and lieutenant colonel Rick Francona.
I wonder if you heard the last conversation, Juliette, coming in between my two guests and whether or not the threat against Muslim necessary this country, whether it's real or I think he said whining.
JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, you know, no one has a monopoly on what will make America safe and secure. So I just want to give you my opinion from the security perspective. Which is if you compare the United States to Europe, the one thing that makes this country relatively safe -- we don't have an extreme radicalization process. We have a problem here in the United States, but it's nothing like what they're facing in Europe. The one element that has made this country sort of an un-radicalized country is its assimilation and acceptance of others, including immigrant communities through our core history.
And so there is a consequence for us to say we're going to close our door to a particular group of people and, oh, by the way, they happen to be Muslim, it helps the right wing in Europe and we certainly don't want them to rise because that's not going to be good for a long-term effort to fight ISIS. And it gives a sentiment or a statement to ISIS that we are what they -- what they think we are.
So from the security perspective, if I'm thinking long-term. I know we're all sort of nervous about what's going on. But thinking -- taking the long view here, the one thing that makes America safe is the fact that we do assimilate these communities. We don't go to war with them. Compare that to France and Europe, which have really a truly homegrown problem. That's my two cents. LEMON: Thank you for responding to that. I want to go to lieutenant
Lieutenant, you know, we have known that ISIS is a huge problem for quite some time now. Why have we been unable to get a grip on the situation before it spread in such a deadly way?
RICK FRANCONA, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: I think we under establishment them. I mean, even the president called them the JV team. I think when they came out of Syria and came east and took the city of Mosul, I think that was the wake-up call and we thought, is this an aberration or are these guys really that good? And then that forced us to look at the absolute pitiful state of the Iraqi army and how fast they collapsed.
So I think it was a combination of this power vacuum that we created by leaving in 2011, the reemergence of Al-Qaeda in Iraq that morph into ISIS, their attack into Mosul. We just -- we cut -- got caught flat-footed.
LEMON: Benjamin, ISIS seems to have pulled off its first plane bombing just two weeks before this terror attack. There are huge holes in FSA security, as we know. Could they do that?
BENJAMIN HADDAD, FELLOW, HUDSON INSTITUTE: Yes, they could do that. I mean, now we are seeing a whole new playing field with ISIS that is entering a second phase in its attack against country. There was Lebanon, obviously the Russian plane, and now France with attack that as the French president said that were planned in Syria, organized in Belgium and carried out in France with the help of French citizens. So we're seeing a whole transnational threat that is, indeed, relying on home grown terrorism but is plantified from Syria and Iraq and ISIS in the Middle East.
LEMON: Yes. Mubin, President Barack Obama talked about the fear of soft target attack in the U.S. Let's listen in and then let's discuss.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: We've seen the possibility of terrorist attacks on our soil. There was the Boston marathon bombers. Obviously, it does not result in the scale of death that we saw in Paris. But, you know, that was a serious attempt at killing a lot of people by two brothers and a crock pot. And it gives you some sense of, I think, the kinds of challenges that are going to be involved in this going forward.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[23:35:20] LEMON: Mubin, we do spend hundreds of billions of dollars on defense. So how does one, how does a country defend against two brothers in a crock pot?
MUBIN SHAIKH, AUTHOR, UNDERCOVER JIHAD: Right or, you know, a guy going into a movie theater and shooting it up or a 15-year-old kid shooting up his classmates at a school. You know, it's the psychological impact that we need to really prepare ourselves for. That where resilience comes from. It comes from inside first.
On the ground, I mean, trust with your communities. This is something that again, I mean, I was listening to the back and forth in the previous panel and I like what's being reinforced is that, look, if you alienate the communities, you are not going to get the human intelligence that you need to infiltrate those networks. You can conduct signals and intelligence all day long. But if you don't have somebody inside those networks, then you are not going to stop these plots. And that's what we have to focus on.
LEMON: Juliette, that was my next question for Juliette, actually. And if you can talk more about it. Because when you look at killing in places like Aurora and Newtown, I mean, does it show that we're not ready in our own country for attacks like this? We're not ready for the so-called soft targets?
KAYYEM: Well, the reality is that America is built on safe. And I think we have to begin to accept that, not only as description, but maybe as something that's complimentary. We are a large nation that is open in terms of ideas and movement and soft targets. We like going to our football games. We like going to our movie theaters. And so what we have to begin to think about in terms of resiliency is lowering the risk, right. We do seen the risk. We're never going to get it to zero. There is never going to be time in this country that has been in zero. Reducing the risk through intelligence efforts, disruptions, all the things we're talking about, the hard core stuff and then also preparing our first responders in our communities and the way we build and the way we respond because things will happen. It's not fatalistic. In fact, it can be somewhat empowering to accept that we will lower the risk, fortify areas that are vulnerable and also build up our resiliency.
It's the world we live in and, to be honest, we lived in it a long time. I mean, in the sense that there's never been a time in U.S. history in which we've been perfectly safe. 9/11 was a dramatic change. But it shouldn't make us have amnesia, right. But we've known how to do this before.
LEMON: All right. Everyone, please stay with me. When we come back right back, how do you win a war against people who are willing to die? Next.
[23:41:49] LEMON: Seven of the eight suspected terrorists in Paris are dead and a manhunt is under way for the eighth. But how do you fight those who are so willing to die?
Back with me now is Benjamin Haddad, Juliette Kayyem, Mubin Shaikh and Colonel Rick Francona.
That's a good question. How does the fight against ISIS -- well, the question is, Rick Francona, how do you fight a war against someone who is so willing to die?
FRANCONA: Well, unfortunately, since they are willing to die, you have to allow them to do that. You conduct the war as you would any other war, knowing full well that your fighting enemy is committed. And you have to change your tactics a little bit to take that into consideration. But right now, just bombing them from the air doesn't seem to be working. And eventually, we're going to have to have some ground component take them on. And that ground component is going to have to realize that these people are probably not going to have to surrender. They are going to be taken out and killed. That's very difficult to do.
LEMON: Benjamin, is the fight against ISIS any different, Al-Qaeda, any other terrorist group?
HADDAD: I think it is. ISIS represents, I think, today, a larger threat first because it holds on territory in Iraq and Syria. So, obviously, I totally agree with what you just said. We need to take the fight to them. And we need to ramp up the airstrikes and have a ground strike that includes a political strategy for the reintegration of moderate Sunnis in Syria and at the end of the day, the ouster of President Assad and a political transition base has been -- and his impression has been at the origins of the radical groups. There is obviously a domestic dimension, especially in Europe with increased security cooperation, reinforcing intelligence and fighting against radicals in mosque. There's debates ongoing today in France about the expulsion of radicals with dual citizenships, with radical imams. These are the conversation we need to have in Europe.
LEMON: Mubin, you know this better than anyone else, right. Because these jihadis in Paris are young people. They are targeting other young people. The question is why. Where does their anger come from?
SHAIKH: You know, it's like they're joining a gang is what they're doing, you know. It's like kids who are -- if you look at an architect of a gang, you know, kids being bullied, picked on, feels like, you know, he's looked down on. And then you can look towards this gang that shows itself as the vanguard, that they will protect you. And if you associate yourself with that gang and you say that I am a part of this gang, people will leave you alone. People will fear you. And this is exactly what we're looking at. It's a gang at this global level, you know.
Also, look at the young male syndrome. You're dealing with young males, the vast majority of which are under 25. The brain is physically still developing into your mid-20s. So there are physiological aspects. There are psychological aspects. Societal aspects. You are not going to be able to make everyone feel like they belong, everyone feel happy about themselves. That's just the reality of how it is.
LEMON: Yes. And then there's the technology, Juliette, innovating, using Twitter, they use Facebook, obviously. There's also these apps that are really tough to decrypt like What'sapp and even PlayStation. Can we keep up with their activities?
[23:45:13] KAYYEM: Probably not. I mean, actually, they're just moving faster than I think governments agencies are often able to do. That is why there is this huge debate about encryption right now whether the government should be allowed to have some sort of back door access into things like PlayStation so they can monitor these communications.
But there are some success stories, which is, you know, we can monitor the open communication when someone goes dark, then you actually know something probably bad is happening and then you follow them, if you can, into those places or you get a warrant, which we can still do. I mean, we can still get warrants, even though this is new technology.
And I think, you know, when the FBI announced yesterday that they were going to really start surveillance in America, I thought what was the most interesting thing is they said it publicly. And I think part of why they said that publicly was to tell people, don't fool around or flirt with these ISIS websites. You're going to get into trouble. But also to see who might go dark at this stage. In other words, if you stop communicating on these networks, that's a sign that maybe what you were communicating was nefarious. So I thought that was a brilliant tactic by the FBI to sort of put it out there and to see how people respond.
LEMON: Juliette, Mubin, lieutenant colonel Rick Francona, and Benjamin Haddad, thank you very much. I appreciate it.
When we come right back, terror attacks on a restaurant hall, can Parisians ever feel safe again? We'll get into that next.
[23:50:28] LEMON: The attacks in Paris hit at the heart of what that city is known for, cafes, concert halls, football stadium. So it's no surprise that panic set in yesterday among Parisians who are nervous other attacks may follow. My next guest got caught up in the frenzy.
Joining now is Clemente de Champfleury, a resident of Paris.
Hello to you. I want you to explain the atmosphere in the city right now, Clemente.
CLEMENTE DE CHAMPFLEURY, PARISIAN RESIDENT: Well, it's a very mixed atmosphere because French people are -- well, just -- they want to show their strength, they want to show that they will not back down. But in the same time, there is a feeling of permanent threat that we have to deal with, which is a new feeling and we are not accustom to that because last time we were under serious attack, which is 1995 during the area attacks in Paris. So it's something new we have to deal with, but at the same time, we want to affirm that French people and people from Paris will live and do business as usual to show that we are not frightened.
LEMON: Yes. You know, we saw some of the scenes of panic there yesterday he in Paris. And you experienced that for yourself.
DE CHAMPFLEURY: Yes. It was a very strange scene because I was out for drinks with friends of mine. And we were really surprised to see that, in fact, the streets where we were overcrowded. Lots of people sitting at, you know, coffees having drinks which are unusual, you know, in view of what happened last Friday. And there is, you know, a very nice feeling all around the streets. It was almost, you know -- well, almost as if nothing had ever happened. And all of a sudden, someone starts yelling, they are shooting at us, they are shooting at us and started running which creates chaos in the street where we were. And we had to run and people literally lost their minds and we have to, well, run for safety. It lasted 45 minutes. But 45 minutes later, people realized that we've just -- you know, it was a false alarm and life was huge and gone back to normal.
LEMON: So you hid for 45 minutes?
DE CHAMPFLEURY: Yes. We were - we hid at the back of the store and called the police, of course. We had to attend a few tourists who were completely lost. And by the time that we managed to calm everyone down, it was about 40 to 45 minutes.
LEMON: You say you want to get back to your normal routine. Today was the first weekday after the attack. Did people go to work? Did they take public transportation?
DE CHAMPFLEURY: I was really surprised, yes. The metro was overcrowded. Lots of people had to wait for two or three trains before being able to get on. And, you know, in the street, it was really business as usual. The same restaurant I go to was, you know, full of people. People with, you know, confidence. They were talking, of course, about what happened during the weekend. But it was not too trauma advertising. They were calm, they were sure what they were doing and they were -- to do business as usual.
LEMON: Clemente De Champfleury, thank you very much. I appreciate you joining us.
DE CHAMPFLEURY: Thank you for having me, Don.
[23:58:23] LEMON: The Paris attackers shocked us with violence, designed to bring death and leave behind fear and terror. Many of us have wondered since Friday night, what would we do, God forbid, if we or someone we love was in that stadium, those restaurants, that theater, how would we react?
Antwan Liris (ph) lost his wife at Bataclan. He had to wait days to see her. And today, after he did, his reaction was to send a message to the terrorists who killed her. On his Facebook page he writes this.
Friday night one took away the life of an exceptional human being, the love of my life, the mother of my son. But you will not have my hatred. I do not know who you are and I do not wish to know. You are dead souls. If this God for whom you kill so blindly has made us in his image, every bullet in the body of my wife will have been a wound in his heart. So I will not give you the privilege of hating you. There are only two of us, my son and I, but we are stronger than all the armies of the world. Moreover, I have no more time to grant you. I must go to Melvil who
is waking up from his nap. He is just 17 months old. He will eat his snack like every day then we will play every day and this little boy will affront you by being happy and free because you will not have his hatred, either. Antwan's message has been shared over 57,000 times and I wanted to share it once more with you.
Our live coverage of the Paris terror attacks continues right now with Michael Holmes and Amara Walker.