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Donald Trump Calls For Ban On Muslims Traveling To U.S.; FBI Says San Bernardino Killers Had Been Radicalized For Some Time; New Documentary About John Lennon's Life. Aired 11p-12a ET
Aired December 7, 2015 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[23:00:46] DON LEMON, CNN HOST: Donald Trump calling tonight for a travel ban on all Muslims entering the United States.
It's 11:00 here in the east. This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.
He told Syrian supporters in South Carolina, a travel ban is not politically correct, but he does not care. Much, much more on that Donald Trump ahead this hour.
But first, the FBI says the killers behind the San Bernardino massacre were radicalized and had been for quite some time. Let's discuss now with CNN's national correspondent Kyung Lah.
Hello, Kyung. The FBI saying that they are trying to build a timeline into last week's shooting. What's the latest on the investigation?
KYUNG LAH, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the investigation, at least what they are telling us so far is it certainly has signs of extreme planning. In case and point, what the FBI is saying is that out of the arsenal, they pulled 19 pipes. Originally, that report was 12. It's now risen to 19 pipes that could easily be turned into bombs. So certainly a very large arsenal.
And as you mentioned, Don, that radicalization, the radicalization of both for some time. The question now, and the critical question for investigators is exactly when and exactly how -- Don.
LEMON: The most disturbing part, perhaps, of this whole thing is the fact that they went to target practice days before the shooting.
LAH: You're right. This is just days before the shooting, from what we are hearing. We went to the riverside magnum range. And there, they say Farook, just Farook not his wife, did show up. He brought his only rifle, an AR-15 rival that does matches the description of what authorities say was used in the rampage. They say he didn't really have too much contact with people at the range, but he did practice. He left taking his weapon with him. The range says that they don't feel that they did anything wrong. They didn't instruct him. They didn't teach him anything. But they are now getting some severe backlash. When we were there, police were called because a death threat had been called into that gun range.
LEMON: Kyung, how about the wife, Tashfeen Malik, what more do we know about her?
LAH: Well, her background is starting to come into just a fit sharper focus. What we are learning about her is that she was raised in Pakistan. She was born in Pakistan. She spent much of her formative years in Saudi Arabia. She returned to Pakistan. This particular area where she went to college and where she was raised is ripe with extremism, different versions of Islam that is debated among the community. There is a lot of poverty there. And what we are hearing from cousins there is that during those formative college years, she took a strong, something towards more than conservative Islam. So a much more background still foggy, Don. But it is starting to come into a bit sharper focus.
LEMON: Kyung Lah, thank you very much. Appreciate that.
Joining me now is Anthony May, retired ATF explosive enforcement officer, Arthur Roderick is former assistant director of the U.S. Marshals office, Buck Sexton is here, as well, national security editor for "the Blaze" who is a former CIA agent.
Art, the FBI says there is no evidence of a broader overseas plot. So how does that square with the fact that the shooters attempted to destroy their digital footprint?
ART RODERICK, FORMER ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, U.S. MARSHALS SERVICE: Yes. I mean, I think as far as any direction from overseas that is probably true. And I think the bureau has a pretty good handle on that. But I think what they are looking at is the digital footprint is who else was probably assisting them, either in this country. And there is information that they were trying to contact several Islamic groups overseas.
So it's -- I think as we peel back this onion over the next few days, couple weeks, we are going to see more and more information coming out where they did have contact. I mean, we have been extremely lucky in this country. Also, through some great work the FBI has done. But if you look at the underwear bomber, the shoe bomber, the Times Square bomber, thank God that they weren't adept at making bombs. And this couple, also, otherwise we would have had some several disasters on our hands.
LEMON: Anthony, can I ask you about your reaction to hearing? I just spoke with Kyung about it. The shooters went to target practice just days before the shooting rampage. I mean, do you think that should have raised some red flags?
[23:05:00] ANTHONY MAY, RETIRED ATF EXPLOSIVES ENFORCEMENT OFFICER: Not really. You know, that is -- there is a lot of people that go to gun ranges. Now, I will say that a lot of the magazines, the "Inspire" magazine, the "Veep" magazines, "Inspire" specifically talks about, you know, if you're going to build a bomb, test it, make sure it works. Those kinds of things. And you can do those things in isolated areas. In this particular case, he took his gun and then went target practicing. Maybe he wanted to make sure it worked. I don't know.
LEMON: The FBI also saying, buck, that they had been radicalized for some time now. So the big question is, do you think that this was self-radicalization or do you think that they had contact and it was something beyond that?
BUCK SEXTON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: It's honestly impossible to tell without that direct link to the outside. And clearly, there was some concern on the part of these attackers that they wanted to try and cover up their tracks afterwards, while they went to the extra steps of -- I assume that they figured they weren't going to live through this is ordeal. But they went to steps and try to cover their tracks anyway which might have been because there were co-conspirators in a digital sense. People who are trying to put them in touch with individuals who might have been able to help them, logistically or otherwise. So we will have to find what that digital foot print is, if the FBI uncovers it.
But I do have to say that some of the reporting that we have already seen and it is actually up on CNN.com right now that says that there are people that were close to them who heard things like one of the leaders, Syed was supportive of Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi's ideology and that he had an extreme hatred for Israel.
If you're going to have somebody who is careful about the way they are plotting one of these attacks, if you are going to catch them, and they are not going to get trip off in some kind of a dragon. They are not going on obvious chat rooms and saying that they are going to commit jihad. It has to be from somebody in the circles around. It has to be from a friend or family member. And I think we have gotten at least some sense that there are some people who should have asked some more questions. I know this has been retracted in initial statement about that. I find that a little convenient that that was said and then they said they don't remember saying it. I think that people should have known that there was something going on here. And, clearly, these individuals were known to have been, you know, very devout. So in the early hours, we were told that wasn't even clear.
LEMON: I want to ask you about Syed because he was born in the United States. I'm not sure what you think of Donald Trump's plan, right. You heard what he said about Muslim immigrants, if you think that would have stopped it. And what do you think about his comment?
SEXTON: No. It absolutely wouldn't have stopped it. I think Trump's comments are reprehensible on more levels when I have time to get into now, trying to get into a couple of them. One, obviously, it disparages the very people who, by the way, of course, never mind the fact that is collected guilt on a massive billion-plus person skill. But it disparages the very people that we need if we are going to win this ideological war that is happening within Islam. A different level as well, by the way between Sunni and Shia, between the extremists and the moderates. And if you are going to push them all out, and say that no longer are they going to be part of the American family, we have essentially already lost that war.
It also makes it hard for people like me and some of your other guests to have serious conversations about real counterterrorism policy that is sometimes going to run a (INAUDIBLE). It is going to be difficult from the politically correct perspective without immediately following a vow of, are you sort of suggesting that we should take a Trump-like approach? So I resent it. I think it is completely disingenuous. Worse than that. It is despicable for him to say it. And I wish that he hadn't said it.
LEMON: Art, who is saying - was that you, Art Roderick?
RODERICK: Yes. I was agreeing. I mean, I think - the bottom line is it is unconstitutional. It is just not only going to work. And I think that that type of rhetoric really could - I mean, in order to fight this movement, we have to have the community on our side. And there has to be a good relationship between law enforcement in the Muslim communities and all our cities across the U.S. That type of -- that type of language does not help.
LEMON: Anthony May, do you want to weigh in on this?
MAY: I certainly do. I mean, from a criminal investigator aspect, you know, we try to approach things with an un-biased attitude. I don't care what their religion is, their race, their ethnicity, I don't care of anything about that. We look at the means, motive and opportunity. That means, there is no way we are going to stop the means unless you want to stop all gun sales and pipe sales and powder. So we are not going to stop the means.
Opportunity, sure. We can go in on a security side of the house and secure every venue, any place for a large gathering of peoples are and put armed like they do in Mexico. You won't go into a grocery store down there. You get somebody with a shotgun standing out in front of it. But that is ridiculous.
So the answer is, then, is motivation. The only we are going to solve this is by solving the motivation issue. What is motivating these people to do this? You know, the columbine kids that went and did what they did, what was the motivation? They were considered outcasts. You know, somebody that goes and shoots up a Planned Parenthood because of -- maybe because of a video of kids being mutilated, the vitriol rhetoric that has spouted out there that motivates these people to these kinds of things and that it carries with the Muslim community. I mean, we can't lump everybody into a single solid terrorism ideal. So motivation is the key to solving this. And this vitriol and this rhetoric isn't helping with the motivational aspect.
[23:10:13] LEMON: I want to ask Buck Sexton. I wanted to get everyone to weigh in on it, but I want to ask you, Buck, you said we are going to have to have some conversations that are top that may not be politically correct. So he is saying the best way to do it is motivation. Figure out what the motivation is. What are those conversations and trying to figure out how to stop this?
SEXTON: Some of the motivations are dealing with, for example, where a majority of major -- what might people termed strategic terrorist plots against the home that are going to emanate from. LEMON: These are the conversations you're talking about?
SEXTON: Yes. These are the conversations. They are going to come from, many of them, from within the Muslim community. Now, that doesn't mean that you can then paint with this incredibly religion justice brush and disparage an entire religious tradition, an entire religious fate. And you need to have the good will on all sides of the issue here to come to people say listen, this is coming from the community. We know it is a minority. We need your help to route this out. This was the truth when I was working with the NYPD intelligence division. We would always try to work with the community. This is the truth when you are looking at it from a domestic and quite honestly, international character in perspective as well.
If we didn't have the cooperation of Muslim countries in the war on terror, we would be dead in the water. If we did not have allies overseas who are Muslims, we would not be able to fight this war in the least. So this idea that we can somehow just push them out of the house entirely and never think of them again is nonsense. And it's worse than that because it's deeply counterproductive and I think the conversations we are going to continue to have here about surveillance, about the first amendment, about where we have to draw those lines is harmed greatly by this sort of overstepping by Trump, just to sort of get the headlines.
LEMON: Buck, Anthony, Art, thank you, gentlemen. I appreciate all of you.
A special note to tell you about, the band Eagles of Death Metal took to the stage for the first time since terrorists killed 90 people at the rock band's last concert at the French capital in November. Bono of U-2, gave the introduction.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BONO, U-2: They were robbed of their stage three weeks ago and we would like to offer them ours tonight. Would you welcome the Eagles of Death Metal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[23:16:29] LEMON: Donald Trump calling for a ban on Muslims traveling to the United States. He told supporters at a campaign rally in South Carolina tonight that it's not a politically correct, a politically correct position to hold, but he does not care.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: So what's happened is we are out of control. We have no idea who is coming into our country. We have no idea if they love us or if they hate us. We have no idea if they have not to bomb us. We have no idea what's going on.
(END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON: Joining me now is Fareed Zakaria, host of "FAREED ZAKARIA GPS."
I want to talk to you about this Donald Trump, the latest statement. What you think it's an important policy, right, that he wants to shut down all Muslims from entering the United States.
FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN HOST, FAREED ZAKARIA GPS: Well, it's important because he said saying this is a very important policy.
LEMON: He said it is important policy.
ZAKARIA: So it's not an off-the-cuff remark. Look. I mean, it is -- who knows if it's even constitutional. I don't think Trump cares about things like this because he says a total and complete shutdown. Does that mean you are talking businessmen not coming into the country? Does that mean relatives of Americans, you know, will not be given visas to visit their families?
LEMON: He said everyone - immigrants, tourists.
ZAKARIA: Everything. He says a total and complete shutdown. And I think at some point you have to ask when will the Republican Party really stand up because Trump is what he is? Trump is trying his best to play with the worst fears and anxieties that Americans have at a moment like this when they are feeling threatened and vulnerable.
LEMON: The question is, though, does this work for him?
ZAKARIA: Of course it will work for him. Look. It doesn't take a genius to understand. It works if you're demagogue. There is a reason demagogues throughout history have managed to, you know, captured the attention of the people. Will it work in the long run? Will it work in the general election? I don't know.
But at moments like this when you have people who are scared and anxious and they don't know whether - and they want to hear some simple answer, yet, let alone the fact that the answer won't do anything to keep America safe. He hasn't a single sensible idea about how to prosecute the war against ISIS any differently. But, of course, it will work in making people feel or hear somebody willing to do something radical, dramatic and bold.
LEMON: But does it say something? You are saying will it work. Does it say something about where we are as a people, as a country when it comes to terrorism and the fear that you are talking about? You are saying it's demagoguery, but the fear that Americans have not necessarily just about Muslims, not about Muslims, but about terrorism?
ZAKARIA: Well, it is a fear about terrorism. It is a vulnerability. This is a country that doesn't, you know, we have been very safe historically compared with other countries. So the shattering of that sense of security is important.
But look, I mean, if one of these attacks can do this to us, what does it say about us? Look at what the British had to go through with the IRA for decades and decades. Look at what the Spanish had to go through with Catalonia.
LEMON: Look what happens in Israel.
ZAKARIA: Look at what happens in Israel. I mean, you know, the resilience those societies have built up is something we need to, in some ways, recognize as a strength which is the ability to say, yes, of course, we will do everything to defeat this, but we will also not panic and not go crazy.
LEMON: How does this play overseas? Because I don't know if everyone has it. We know Donald Trump, you know, from his days as a real estate agent, as, you know, a character in New York city and we know him from "the Apprentice" and what have you. But how does this play overseas beyond America?
[23:19:59] ZAKARIA: Obviously, it plays terribly. First of all, remember, there is one point six billion Muslims in the world. So it is not - not playing very well with them-- it's interesting where America has always been at the forefront of the expansion of liberty, at the expansion of the idea of openness, that is what America has always been about.
And what's, you know, saddening to see is that the rest of the world is looking at an America that is talking about religious tests for entry, that it's talking about shutting down. And as I say, all this on the basis of this terrorist attack, terrible and tragic as it was, but terrorist attacks like this happen in many countries and they are not talking quite the same way.
LEMON: Fareed, let me ask you this. Does this anti-Muslim rhetoric, does this fuel ISIS, do you think?
ZAKARIA: It certainly is what ISIS wants in the sense that ISIS even talks, and this is not, you know, we don't have to interpret. They have in their publication. They talk about a gray zone, a zone of -- you know, the vast majority of people who are between the small minority who support them and, you know, what they regard as the west, the crusaders, things like that.
So these are the people who they think have to be divided. And the strategy of the IRA, that is always been -- the strategy of terrorism is to force people in the middle. They have to choose and to force people, in this case, Muslims who feel like we have no recourse but to support ISIS. Of course, it is not going to happen. But yes, they want divide, they want to sharpen the contrast, they don't like a world in which there is an open space where people are living together. They don't like the adversity. That is not --
LEMON: Many people have been saying the president needs to come out to address the situation because of what happens in San Bernardino, Paris, and on and on. And considering, you know, what Donald Trump has said, what did you think about the president's speech last night? Did he do anything to sort of negate what Donald Trump is saying to make American people feel better? What did you think of the speech? ZAKARIA: I think it was in some ways vintage Obama. He is - I think
the way he views it, people like Donald Trump are playing with fire. And he is the fireman. He is the guy who is going to douse those flames. He is going to be cool, measured. He is going to have an adult conversation about, you know, the steps that are being taken to deal with ISIS, what we should do and what we shouldn't do. It may be too cool for some people.
LEMON: For those that says where is the passion, he wasn't passionate enough, you say --
ZAKARIA: I think he doesn't believe that he should have to jump in a mode and get hysterical when, you know, bad things happen. I think his view is that is when you want to be grown-up, that's when you wonder be calm and reason. And certainly, for all that people are saying, as I say, with regard to his strategy, not a lot of people have come up with an alternative. There is this huge problem in Syria which is you do not have a ground force that can take and govern the territory that ISIS controls. Until you figure that out, you can -- you huff and puff all you want. You have to go along with the strategy that they have. Airstrikes, special ops, working with locals, trying to get the Turks more involved.
You know, for all the -- if you look at Donald Trump tweets, his response to the speech was why does he keep calling it ISIL? Why doesn't he call it ISIS like everyone else? OK. I mean, if that is your substantive critique of the speech, then it tells you us you don't have an alternative.
LEMON: Fareed Zakaria, thank you. Appreciate it.
And coming up, will Donald Trump's proposal device the GOP? That is next.
[23:27:34] LEMON: This is a big question, is Donald Trump dividing the GOP Republican strategists? Eric Bernstein said this. He said sad but true, GOP attitudes toward Muslims are very low, especially among white evangelical Protestants.
So let's discuss now. Charles Hurt is a columnist for the "Washington Times." Republican strategist Rick Wilson here as well. Bakari Sellers is a former member of the South Carolina house of representatives and Ben Ferguson, a host of the "Ben Ferguson show."
Good to have all of you.
Charles Hurt, you say that President Obama has left a vacuum of power and Donald Trump is filling it. What is he feeling it with?
CHARLES HURT, COLUMNIST, WASHINGTON TIMES: Well, you know, we can all -- you know, people can ring their hands about his comment today about wanting to ban all Muslims from coming to the country, but what do you expect? We have had seven years of a president who refuses to acknowledge the seriousness of radical Islamic terrorism and you have a president who refuses to secure the boarders. And this is what happens in a big, sprawling, messy democracy like this when problems like that are allowed to fester and go unfixed. We wind up with very, very dramatic, you know, reaction from political leaders.
LEMON: So Bakari, if I don't let you in, it looks like you're going to just burst. What? What?
BAKARI SELLERS, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: That was one of the more absurd comments I think I have ever heard to say that Barack Obama is to blame for Donald Trump's bigotry. That is just purely asinine. The fact of the matter is the leader of the Republican Party, front-runner today, the person who is leading in the polls and has been since June or July in New Hampshire, the one who galvanized a crowd today in South Carolina is Donald Trump. And Donald Trump at best is a bigot.
SELLERS: And the problem is it's not just his comments today. It's his comments about Hispanics when he announced his campaign. It's his comments about women. It's his comments about everyone. He is offended everyone but rich, white men and that is a problem and you cannot blame that on Barack Obama.
HURT: You should take bigotry a little by more seriously than to accuse somebody of bigotry because he believes in securing the border and he believes there is a massive problem with a jihadist attempt to destroy America and he wants --
SELLERS: But that is not all Muslims.
HURT: It's albeit a fairly dramatic proposal, but that is what he is trying to respond to.
SELLERS: That is not all Muslims. And yes, that is xenophobic and yes, that is bigotry. The fact of the matter is if we want to talk about terrorism in this country, let's have a conversation about Dylan Roof or Robert Lewis Dear and if --
LEMON: Standby. Let him finish and then you will get in.
SELLERS: And if we were to ban individuals who looked like Robert Lewis Dear and Dylan Roof, then we would simply have a show tonight with me and Don Lemon.
LEMON: Ben, do you think that it is fair to call him a bigot?
BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Look, I think what he said today was not well thought out and I think his campaign was pretty obvious about that. They -- I don't even think they knew exactly what was in their own press release, for goodness sakes. But let's be clear. Donald Trump is feeling avoid because people --
LEMON: What do you mean they don't understand what's in their press release?
FERGUSON: Well, I mean, they say that it is all of a sudden they are talking about immigrants, but their own press release says all Muslims will not be allowed into this country. Does that mean Muslims that are Americans that are overseas, does that mean former men and women in the military who are now contractors who are working in the Middle East? They can't come back?
I mean, they did not think this out very well. They knew there was a void they wanted to fill. They knew that the American people are very concerned about ISIS. They are concerned about terrorism. And they feel like the administration, right now, is not doing enough. They don't feel like -- and look, there is a big vulnerability with this president and the way that he talked more about Republicans and more about gun control than he did terrorism --
LEMON: Isn't that what Charles just said?
FERGUSON: It is. And that is the reason why --
LEMON: Isn't that what Charles just said?
FERGUSON: But my point is this. That Donald Trump understands when there is an opportunity. This opportunity, though, he overstepped.
LEMON: All right. Go ahead, Rick.
RICK WILSON, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Listen, I think the theme of not thinking it through is one we are going to see a lot more from the Trump people. This thing today was -- look, we'll set aside whether Donald Trump is a bigot or not. This is a guy who understands how to play to his crowd. But the thing that is disturbing to me as an actual limited government conservative is he threw American Muslim citizens into that same pot and said, well, we are just going to basically suspend their rights, and this is a guy who is walking by --
LEMON: He did clarify he is not talking about American Muslims, but go ahead.
WILSON: Well, he actually said on FOX that he meant that those serving in the military. He didn't actually delineate the rest from what I heard of the interview. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong on that, but I heard he said only the ones serving in the military could come back.
This is a guy, though, who is willing to make these incredibly broad sweeping generalizations about folks. And I don't care if they are Muslims or Baptists or Mormons. At some point, another president, a liberal president might say, well, I'm concerned about these Christians because some of them are involved in --
FERGUSON: President is --
LEMON: Let's find that sound bite. We do have that sound bite. We'll find it and we'll play it if we can get it into this conversation. I will do it in the next break.
FERGUSON: The president is everything here. You see all the other Republicans -- look, we've got a debate coming up on the 15th. Don, this may be the moment where you truly see all other Republican candidates go all in to - I mean, look how fast they came out tonight condemning his comments.
LEMON: They are all in, though. There is nothing new. They are all in for Donald Trump because he is the front-runner. The person who is carrying the ball is going to get body hit as most.
SELLERS: But they are not going all in, though. That's not true. In fact, the people who are polling above five percent, look at the people who are polling above five percent in the Republican primary right now. You hear crickets from Ted Cruz. You hear crickets from --
FERGUSON: Marco Rubio came out moments after this --
LEMON: One at a time. Rick Wilson, go.
WILSON: Yes. Almost everyone in the field came out, with the exception on of Cruz who has been drafting behind Trump for a while now.
SELLERS: And Ben Carson.
WILSON: And lit this guy up on this thing.
SELLERS: And Ben Carson.
WILSON: Yes, exactly. It's not about -- this isn't a bigger picture, not about the Muslim and the terrorists and the immigrant question. This is about the constitution. He is a guy willing to write American citizens, no matter what their faith is, whether you like it or not, he is willing to write them out of the American constitution in an extra judicial way, and it's something that I think should trouble Americans.
LEMON: That said, how would Trump even implement this?
FERGUSON: He can't.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's unconstitutional.
FERGUSON: He can't don't.
LEMON: Ben, last time I checked, your name was Ben. Go ahead.
HURT: I don't know how you can go about doing anything like this. But I can say with absolute certainty that you can't call the huge number of Americans out there who are genuinely upset about this. And for whom this is probably an appealing proposal, you can't dismiss them as being bigots of racists. They are people who are concerned about terrorism. They are concerned about people coming into their suburban neighborhoods, their towns, their rural communities and committing gee had against them. They are genuinely concerned. All I'm saying is that we wouldn't be here if we were still taking this problem more seriously and weren't --
LEMON: Everybody stay with me. Stand by, everyone.
When the first Muslim elected to Congress makes an interesting comparison to Donald Trump, that is next.
[23:38:00] LEMON: Is there a political strategy behind Donald Trump. Rhetoric will back at me now. Charles Hurt, Rick Wilson, Bakari Sellers, and Ben Ferguson who we talked about the representative here. This is Representative Keith Ellison from Minnesota released a statement tonight saying this. Demagogues like Trump appeal to the worse in people. They have never been celebrated I our history books from Joseph McCarthy on.
So Bakari, Ellison is, you know, of course, the first Muslim elected to Congress. Did you ever think someone running for president, a Democrat or a Republican, would run on unconstitutional ideals?
SELLERS: Well, I mean, I think that is one of the biggest travesties of this campaign. And it's so representative of the climate that we are in, that his rhetoric, it's more than that. He is talking about transforming (ph) on our constitution. His words, I mean, they literally fracture the core of what our country was built on.
You know, I actually paid attention to what John Kasich -- Governor Kasich said today about unifying and bringing our country today. I mean, for God sake, I literally miss Mitt Romney now. I mean, at least Mitt Romney elevated the conversation. I mean, we are taking steps backwards. In the largest national security threat we have right now in this country may be Donald Trump. Because he is the number one recruiting tool for ISIS and ISIL right now. That's what they want. And we cannot win this war against terror without our Muslim brothers and sisters. So I'm distraught and frustrate, but this is the political discord that we have now and that is a shame.
[23:40:27] LEMON: OK. So Rick, we promised earlier that we would look for the sound bite on Greta which is on FOX earlier where he talked about who gets to stay, who gets to go, what have you. I'm not sure if it's clear enough, but let's listen and we can further discuss this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: There are Americans serving in our military who are Muslims who are overseas on bases. Do you apply this rule to them?
TRUMP: No. They would come home. Anybody here stays, but we have to be very vigilant. There is a lot of bad things going on. When you look at these polling numbers that came out, there is tremendous hatred, there is tremendous animosity, and these are taken of people living in our country, from Muslims living in our country, which is amazing. Because I have Muslim friends, Greta, and they are wonderful people. Buts there is a tremendous section and cross-section of Muslims living in our country who have tremendous animosity. We can't let this happen. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Does it apply to your friends? Does
this apply to your Muslim friends? This --
TRUMP: No, of course -- this applies -- this does not apply to people living in the country, except that we have to be vigilant.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, Rick, does that clear it up? Muslims says -- it sounds like he is saying it doesn't apply to people living in the country that would be Muslim citizens.
WILSON: I'm not sure it does clear it up. But I think, you know, if Donald Trump would just once in a while nod and wave at the constitution, I would feel better about this whole thing. But the fact of the matter is, this is substitute in Trump's mind for proposing anything serious to deal with Islamic terrorism, which is incredibly consequential and immediate threat.
And this, what he is proposing would not have stopped what just happened. What he is proposing would have done anything about what has just happened. If he had a serious degree of policy knowledge or insight, he would talk about how would we improve our domestic intelligence surveillance of folks like this? How do we target less people? How do we profile in order to figure out who is going to get radicalized?
LEMON: Charles --
WILSON: He is great at the show, he is terrible at the leadership.
LEMON: Before you respond, Charles, all of the experts here, all the terrorism experts, all the law enforcement analysts we have had come on say that this sort of proposal was dangerous and would not stop radicalization or terrorism here in the United States. But go on. Do you think that this clears it up and do you agree with that?
HURT: Well, no. All I was going to say is I think that -- and I'm not defending this proposal, but I do think that it would have at least stopped the woman from getting in here on a K1 visa. And that would have been a very good thing. That would have saved 14 people who are now dead and 14 more people who are injured. And that is the rationale that millions of voters around -- and Americans around across the country who cherish and love our religious freedom, that is what they are listening to. That is what they are thinking when they hear Donald Trump. And for us to sit up here and dismiss all of that --
LEMON: OK. More on Donald Trump tonight. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: It's been a great day because the poll numbers are through the roof. I like that. But I have more, you know, I wish we call -- is there any way we can call the election tomorrow? Wouldn't you love that? Now they are coming at us in full force. They are not coming at me. They are coming at all of us. They are coming at all of us because, you know, we have a noisy majority. They used to call it the quiet majority. People are fed up. They are fed up with incompetence. They are fed up with stupid leaders. They are fed up with stupid people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, many people have said, I shouldn't say many people, but some people have said that these are the conversations that Americans are having at home that they wouldn't necessarily say in public, but they feel the way Donald Trump feels --
HURT: Because they are terrified of political correctness.
FERGUSON: With the, they are terrified of political correctness. But, Don, the whole reason why Donald Trump came out with this today is because he says that we could have stopped the woman from coming into this country. And there are many Americans that are going to listen to that aspect of what he is been saying. And his point is, we don't know who these people are coming into this country. This woman came in on a fiancee visa and it obviously our checks and balances with our federal government didn't work because we now know that she was radicalized some time ago, very well could have been long before she came into this country, so our checks and balances are not working.
And so, when he says I want to stop all Muslims coming into this country because we obviously don't know how to screen them, there is a large part of the electorate that is going to say that is what I want to hear right now because, obviously, what we are doing is not working.
SELLERS: I disagree with Ben on one small point there. It is not a large part of the electorate. It actually is simply a large part of the Republican electorate. And one of the thing I can't let Rick get away with saying that I'm calling all of the Donald Trump's followers a bigot. I'm really not. I'm just calling Donald Trump a bigot. And this is not the first time that he is said something that is rooted in xenophobia. It is not. And you know, I wish people, and I can actually believe they were having a debate about whether or not this was politically correct because we know it wasn't. But this was more than offensive.
[23:45:27] LEMON: But he admits his --. He says I know it's not politically correct and he stands by that.
SELLERS: But this is not even -- my only point is this. This is not even Republican or democrat. I mean, this is about someone who is literally using their rhetoric to fracture and divide our country even further. I mean, I don't understand how --
(CROSSTALK) LEMON: Let him finish. Go ahead, finish, Bakari.
SELLERS: It's 35 percent right now. That is where he is. I'm not sure he'll be able to get any higher. But the trouble for Ben, my good friend Ben and anyone else on my right side is right now he is your standard there.
LEMON: Go ahead Ben.
FERGUSON: I don't think he is our standard bear and I think you saw plenty of people condemn him today. What you are missing is he is saying while you're having this conversation about semantics of what he said, he is focused on national security. And people, when they don't feel safe, he is filling that void. And he is made it very clear that he is willing to say things that are politically incorrect if it helps with our national security.
We have polls out now that literally say the majority of Americans now actually want to put troops on the ground to fight ISIS in Syria. That is how insecure Americans feel. Some of those people are not Trump supporters. Some of them are Democrats. You don't get a majority without having people on both sides of the aisle and we are seeing that now. People in this country feel like we are under attack or vulnerable.
LEMON: I have to go, Ben. That's the last word. Thank you, Ben. Thank you, Rick. Thank you, Bakari and thank you, Charles. I appreciate it.
HURT: You bet, Don.
LEMON: We'll be right back.
[23:50:38] LEMON: Walking distance from our studio right here in Columbus circle is the Dakota, the Manhattan apartment building where John Lennon lived. Well, tomorrow night is the 35th anniversary of the night the former Beatle was shot dead just outside his home by Mark David Chapman.
CNN's Kyra PHILLIPS is here right now.
Kyra, your new documentary, it's called "Killing John Lennon." It is incredible. We will talk about in a minute. But let's watch part of it. OK?
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You got it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I left the hotel room, I knew what was going to happen that day. I just knew it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Before he left, he put a display in the hotel. And it had -- it had his passport, it had photographs from when he worked at the YMCA, it had other mementos from his life.
PHILLIPS (voice-over): A display that would make it easy to identify him as Lennon's killer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And it was like his way of saying, look at me, I'm important.
PHILLIPS: Once the scene was set, Chapman left to stake out the Dakota again. He first saw Sean Lennon and his nanny.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Chapman came from wind her, reached around to shake Sean's hand. And then he commented to her, he is a beautiful little boy, isn't he?
PHILLIPS: While Sean was outside the Dakota, inside his father was getting ready for his last interview ever.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was so real. He was so incredibly real. He wasn't a rock star.
PHILLIPS: Lori Kay produced the six-hour interview.
So you arrive at the Dakota. What was your first impression?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where does he sit? Right on the love seat next to me. So, you know, for the next couple of hours, it was like, that is John Lennon. He is sitting next to me and he is looking at me through his John Lennon glasses.
PHILLIPS: And then came the moment Kay says she will never forget.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He said, I hope to god that I die before Yoko, and he said I hope to God that I die before Yoko because I don't know what I would do if she left before I did. In other words, he couldn't continue without her. And --
LEMON: Thirty-five years later, people are still emotional about this story.
PHILLIPS: Yes. And you saw Lori Kay. She is the one that had the last interview, 35 years later, she gets emotional. If you go to the hospital where we talked to the doctor, he had to tell Yoko Ono that her husband was dead. He still gets emotional more than three decades later.
I mean, it's incredible how it still impacts people. The police officer that arrived at the scene, saw him lying there, bleeding out, decided the ambulance wasn't going to make it. He throws him over his shoulder, gets him in the back of the police car to get him to the hospital, he cried during the interview.
LEMON: During this investigation, did you ever uncover why Mark David Chapman killed John Lennon? PHILLIPS: Well, here is what's interesting. John Lennon just
happened to be the target at that time. He just wanted to be famous. He wanted to kill somebody famous. He talked about killing Johnny Carson. He talked about killing Elizabeth Taylor. He talked about killing George C. Scott, and he had all these plans to do so.
LEMON: And you even got a chance to look at his personal calendar and his journal leading up to the months leading up to the killing.
PHILLIPS: Yes. I mean, and that was chilling in itself. I mean, take a look at the calendar. Months before he murdered John Lennon, it got more chaotic and it got more bizarre and he was crossing things out like he didn't want people to see what he was writing and he was reminding himself that he had to go to the library and he needed to get his paycheck and pay bills. And it just got more and more complicated until the week that he murdered John Lennon. And then there is nothing.
And then his journal, he would have these schematics of all these committees, he said, of little people in his head that were telling him what to do and he was bringing his problems to them and telling them to solve what was going on in his life. And then after he killed John Lennon, also in this journal, he wrote down his three vices. Taking vitamin C, eating junk food and having sexual deviate pleasures. Clearly, a bizarre, shall we say, and sick individual.
[23:55:03] LEMON: It reminds me, brings the question now, we've been talking so much about guns and who should be able to get them and, you know, this was 1980. Should he have been able, considering that, to get a gun?
PHILLIPS: You know, that is such a great question because he had attempted suicide and he went to the hospital and he was evaluated. And because he wasn't institutionalized, because the doctor said he wasn't quote "psychotic," they released him and he was able to go buy a gun without any kind of red flag popping up. Well, as we know, the laws have changed quite a bit since then.
But still, 35 years later, Don, we are still talking about massacres, we are still talking about mental illness, we are still talking about people dying that shouldn't be dying because guns are getting in the wrong hands.
LEMON: I was shocked that it was 35 years because I remember it, you remember it.
PHILLIPS: We're old.
LEMON: Yes. But you explained to the interns in the group what it was.
But thank you so much, Kyra. I can't wait to see this. Your work as always great, but this is going to be fascinating. The CNN Special Report "killing John Lennon" premieres tonight night 9:00 p.m. eastern right here on CNN, of course.
Kyra, thanks. Kyra Phillips.
We'll be right back.