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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Donald Trump is Calling for Ban on Muslims Entering the Country; New Information on San Bernardino Terrorists; Protesters Demand Chicago Mayor's Resignation. Aired 8-9:00p ET
Aired December 9, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[20:00:24] ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Good evening. Thanks for joining us.
Tonight, a striking new development in the San Bernardino terror investigation. We broke the news in this program last night that the husband and wife mass killing may not have been the first deadly act that the husband was plotting. Tonight, we are learning the friend that bought a fair of assault rifles the killer couple used is talking, telling authorities that he and the husband were planning an attack three years ago but called it off. I'll bring you late details on that.
We begin, though, tonight with Donald Trump and the heart burn he is bringing to his own party and the new threats he is now making. Two days after unveiling his plan for keeping any and all Muslims from entering the country as immigrants or even visitors, he sat down with our Don Lemon. The entire interview airs tonight at 10:00 a.m. eastern. Here is a portion of it.
DON LEMON, CNN HOST, CNN TONIGHT: Here is what Jeb Bush tweeted. He said maybe Donald negotiated a deal with his buddy Hillary Clinton, continuing this path will put her in the White House. And then he linked to this tweet of you saying that 68 percent of your supporters would support a third party bid. Here is the pledge that you signed. You saw this pledge. You know where I'm going. Are you going to break the pledge?
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think it's highly unlikely unless they break the pledge to me because it's a two-way street.
LEMON: What is that mean?
TRUMP: They said they will be honorable. So far, I can't tell you if they are. But the establishment is not exactly being very good to me. But I'm leading in every poll by a lot. It looks like I'm going to win. My whole life has been about winning. I'm not like so many of the other people that you talk to that are essentially losers, OK? I know how to win. I intend to win. It's the best way of beating the Democrats if I get the nomination.
In the FOX poll that I'm sure you saw, I'm way ahead of Hillary, head- to-head I'm ahead of Hillary. I will beat Hillary. The one person that Hillary doesn't want to run against and I know a lot of people inside because I get along with Democrats, with Republicans, with liberals, with everybody. The one person that they don't want to run against is me. Believe me.
LEMON: OK. I just want this plain spoken for the viewer.
TRUMP: Go ahead.
LEMON: What do you mean when you say if they break this pledge then you will break the pledge? What do you mean by that?
TRUMP: Well, if they don't treat me with a certain amount of (INAUDIBLE) and respect, if they don't treat me as the front-runner, by far the front runner, if the playing field is not level, then certainly, all options are open. But that's nothing I want to do.
LEMON: How will you know that? What determines that?
TRUMP: Well, I think I will know that over a period of number of months we will go through the primaries. We will see what happens and I'll make a determination. But I would imagine they would treat me properly because I'm leading by a lot.
LEMON: So the pledge is you keep your word, if they keep their word.
TRUMP: Don, I want to run as a Republican.
LEMON: Here is my question. I asked you last time, I said - and some people were shocked, if you were racist, you knew why I was asking you that, are you racist?
TRUMP: I'm the least racist person that you have ever met. I am the least racist person.
LEMON: Are you (INAUDIBLE) in any way.
TRUMP: I don't think so. No, I don't think so.
TRUMP: I'm a person - no. Not at all. I am a person who happens to be very smart.
COOPER: That's Donald Trump by his own account, as you heard, very smart. And by any account while successful and if you listen to a lot of Republican Party insiders incredibly dangerous. Dangerous because what they fear is catastrophic damage he could do to the party. And to make matters even more complicated or interesting, depending on your perspective, Donald Trump doesn't seem to care. These three people do. And New Hampshire state representative Al Baldasaro, co-chair of the New Hampshire Trump veterans coalition. Also "Washington Post" syndicated conservative columnist Kathleen Parker and republican strategist Kevin Madden who also happens to be a CNN political commentator.
Appreciate you all being with us.
Kathleen, you wrote in your latest column that Trump is quote "the most dangerous person to emerge on the U.S. political scene in decades." I mean, it's one thing to say he is offensive as some have or off putting, but to say actually dangerous, how do you back that up?
KATHLEEN PARKER, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST, WASHINGTON POST: Well, I think he has reached the point of being dangerous on multiple levels. But I think his -- the way he is speaking about Muslims trying to ban them from entry into the country and otherwise marginalizing them is helpful actually to our enemy because what is -- the advantage we had over other countries for example in Europe, which have been have suffered more attacks than we have from terrorists is that we have better assimilated all people including Muslims.
So what Trump is actually doing by marginalizing them, by setting them aside as these others that can't be trusted or whatever. He is really kind of creating a second class citizenship which is then going to become more easily, you know, there is a greater risk of their being radicalized and recruited by the Islamic state.
It's a very dangerous movement in terms of our overseas attempts to fight ISIL and then also here in terms of trying to keep Muslims included in the country of which they are citizens, by the way, for the most part. So, you know, that's very dangerous, but it is also extremely dangerous in terms of just our - as to the Republican Party.
You know, this is the last thing they need is for someone to basically suggest that we are not a welcoming country. We do not bring -- we don't really like people not exactly like us. I'll let others talk.
[20:05:37] COOPER: Representative Baldasaro, I mean, you are a Trump supporter. I talked to General Mark Hurtling who, you know, served in Iraq for years, commanded U.S. forces in Northern Iraq for a long time said look, this is just from a strategic standpoint alone, this hurts. America is fighting efforts overseas. You yourself a veteran. You hear former vice president Cheney saying Trump's proposal goes against everything we stand for, everything we believe in. What do you say to that?
AL BALDASARO, CO-CHAIRMAN, NEW HAMPSHIRE TRUMP VETERANS COALITION: You know, I think some of the people need to get their head out of the sand. They use words like decisive, inflammatory, un-American, dangerous. Don't you realize that these people in other countries want to kill Americans? Don't you understand? Many of my fellow veterans are being shot at recruiting stations on bases. They are unarmed. I think Kathleen needs to, like I said, needs to wake up and smell the coffee.
It's about time we have a presidential candidate bringing up the issues that are important to the American people, and he is determined to protect the American people. Something is wrong with all these talking hits. COOPER: Representative, though, you compared this to what Franklin
Roosevelt did to Japanese, and turning Japanese, you know, during World War II in the United States --
BALDASARO: Do you know why I did it?
BALDASARO: Let me explain to you why I said that. Because I utilize the president at the time made a decision that he felt was right that's in accordance with the constitution of the safety of the people of the United States. Was it a right decision? I think it was a bad decision. But that president at that time did the right decision. What about old President Carter, what he did.
COOPER: But sir, but you are comparing to something which is kind of universal described as a black stain in American history, one that Ronald Reagan himself actually apologized for and paid reparations to the descendants of those returning Japanese citizens.
BALDASARO: What didn't you understand what I just said? I just said the president at the time who has ultimate --
COOPER: But you're comparing a policy you say you support from Donald Trump to a decision you say you don't support that was a bad idea. So you're saying essentially, what Donald Trump is doing you're comparing it to what you yourself say is a bad idea.
BALDASARO: No, what I'm saying is at the time, and I wasn't there. I was young. I was a baby. I don't even think I was born. But anyways, at the time the decision was made by a president whose best interest was for the country. History later on makes it whether it was good or bad. At the time, people didn't think it was bad. OK? Just like what Carter did. I was in the Marine Corps when they were sending Iranian students home. Where was all the yelling and screaming then? Well, Liberals were praising Carter.
COOPER: Actually, a court overturned that and said it was unconstitutional to actually do that.
BALDASARO: Yes, down the road they did that.
PARKER: So we got two mistakes they regret.
BALDASARO: We regret, that's right. But you know something. If you look at the national act, immigration act, OK, of 1952, Donald Trump is 100 percent right what he said on what he can do on political groups that want to overturn the country.
COOPER: But Sir, I mean, there was a time when black people didn't have the right to vote in this country and plenty of people thought it was a good idea and in retrospect, people now realized that was --
BALDASARO: In the Republicans fixed it. You're right. I agree with you. Republicans came forward and fixed it under article 13.
COOPER: Kevin, I want to get you in on this. What do you think, a, about, you know, this idea of Trump's and what do you fear it may be doing to the GOP?
KEVIN MADDEN, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, I very much worry that it ruins the profile of a party that in order to flourish has to be a party of ideas. Donald Trump doesn't have any ideas. What Donald Trump has is a lot of inflamed rhetoric.
I also think it's a party that ought to be unifying and Donald Trump is very divisive and also ought to be a party that brings more people into the party rather than keeping them out. And Donald Trump is trying to flourish in this election by segmenting people out and then having them fight among each other. I think that is probably the biggest challenge that a Donald Trump candidacy would present to the Republican Party that we should have learned our lessons from past elections. That we need to do a better job of bringing more people into the campaign. He wouldn't do that.
And I particularly on the ideas part, everybody keeps saying Donald Trump, you know, supporters of Donald Trump say he is bringing up and he is talking about the issues people care about. First of all, people have been talking about the issues for a long time but they put forward substantive ideas. Donald Trump merely plays off of people's fears and does it with sound bites for reality television and he does one in a way that is bordering on fantasia instead of dealing with the real challenges the country faces.
[20:10:31] COOPER: Kathleen, a lot of people, though, agree with Donald Trump. When you look at the polls and even on this, you now, for his supporters, this idea of banning Muslims has a lot of support.
PARKER: Right. Well, he is appealing to this sort of nativest instinct that's common only to a certain percentage of the party --
BALDASARO: That's not true.
PARKER: You talk to people at other levels within the party, and I'm not talking about the establishment necessarily, but just people who are actually more open-minded and more familiar with the constitution and the definition of what it is to be an American.
You know, they are not at all interested in seeing a Donald Trump nomination. So besides which of course he can't win the national election, so it's a pointless endeavor to put him in as a nominee. Furthermore, I think I would not be surprised, Anderson, if you began to see very soon presidential candidates on the Republican side stepping up to the plate and saying we are not going to support Donald Trump if he is the nominee. I suspect that's going to start happening fairly soon and that will make -- will change everything.
MADDEN: We've seen some of that.
BALDASARO: Representative --
PARKER: To say -- well.
COOPER: Representative --
BALDASARO: Could I add into this?
COOPER: Yes. What I actually want to say, ask you, is do you believe - I mean, it seems like the support is coming from grass roots from Donald Trump, a lot of establishments, republican establishment conservatives are pushing back. Do you think their opinion doesn't really matter in all this? That the power of center is shifting to the folks who support Trump?
You know, as an old marine we go by lessons learned. And if you look at what the election -- I've been involved with politics since I was five years old. I was a Democrat. Grandfather (INAUDIBLE) Massachusetts. I grew up with Tip O'Neil and the Kennedys, OK.
If you look at Romney's campaign, they were quiet, they were nice, the gloves were off. Times have changed. Donald Trump is making a lessons learned, is bringing up the issues, if you look at Donald Trump's campaign supporters in New Hampshire, and look at the voting record, we're the real conservatives, we're the real liberty people, we're the real representatives in people concerned with our country. These people are weary about power, OK, the GOP establishment.
MADDEN: How is Donald Trump a real conservative when he has donated and supported the past candidacies of Harry Reid, Hillary Clinton and Nancy Pelosi? And at the same time, he is actually been in favor of socialize medicine. Ho was that conservative?
BALDASARO: You know, when my family had an Italian restaurant, I was a state representative, a Republican. We still - the Democrats, independent, libertarian --
MADDEN: But these are liberals -- these are the leaders --
PARKER: Yes --
MADDEN: These are the leaders of liberal --
BALDASARO: When you're a business person --
MADDEN: These are the leaders. Donald Trump --
BALDASARO: You're a typical --
PARKER: Donald Trump is not --
BALDASARO: You lost an election and learned from it.
COOPER: So Representative, you believe Donald Trump, though, is a true conservative --
MADDEN: What is the lesson in supporting Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and Hillary Clinton?
BALDASARO: You know something? The people, you know, the establishment think the people are stupid. The establishment --
MADDEN: No, what is it? How is that conservative?
BALDASARO: OK. Donald Trump is on his second amendment issue, he is pro-life and wants to build a wall and many talking heads for years --
MADDEN: Before he was pro-choice.
BALDASARO: Said they would build a wall and nothing. My fellow veterans are dying and the establishment has done nothing.
COOPER: All Representative Baldasaro --
BALDASARO: It's about time we have somebody that speaks up.
COOPER: Appreciate you being on, Kathleen Parker, Kevin Madden as well. Thank you.
Coming up next, anti-Muslim acts like a pig's head thrown at a mosque in Philadelphia caught on a surveillance camera. We will talk to the mayor of Philadelphia who has strong words. Mayor Mike Nutter who recently used some blunt and profane language to describe Donald Trump. He joins us tonight.
Also ahead, the breaking news, we wonder why the friend of the male San Bernardino killer bought him a pair of assault rifles. Now a possible answer ahead. Details ahead.
[20:18:19] COOPER: We spoke about a moment ago about the impact of Donald Trump's words on his party in the presidential race. Beyond that, though, lies something potentially far greater, the effect that some believe his rhetoric may be having on how people behave towards American-Muslims especially since the killings in Paris and San Bernardino.
Sunday night, somebody tossed a pig's head at the door of a mosque in Philadelphia. Security camera caught it happening. Eating pork, as you know, of course, is forbidden in Islam.
Yesterday in the press conference with local clerks, Philadelphia mayor Michael Nutter singled out Donald Trump in his plan for some blunt criticism. We want to warn you he used some rough language to describe the Republican front-runner. Here is what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAYOR MICHAEL NUTTER (D), PHILADELPHIA: He is an asshole. I mean, what do you -- I apologize reverends, people in the religious community, I apologize. I mean, how can I take seriously any foreign policy idea from someone like him? I mean, it's just impossible. So he has no idea what he is talking about.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Mayor Nutter also said that if he could, he would like to bar Donald Trump from entering his city. His remarks earning him this Trump tweet, Mayor Nutter in Philadelphia who is doing a terrible job should be ashamed for using such a disgusting word referring to me. Low life.
Mayor Nutter joins us now.
Thanks very much for being with us, Mayor. Calling Donald Trump an a- hole and madman, danger to society, do you stand by what you said?
NUTTER: Well, I said what I said, and I meant it. It was in response to a question about whether President Obama was doing enough and Donald Trump questioning the president's efforts to fight ISIS and ISIL and that was my response. I did apologize to the clergy who were at that press conference, but that's as far as it goes.
It was an impromptu remark for the rest of the press conference. I was, you know, fully above bored in everything. But here is the problem, even leading Republicans have denounced the comments by Donald Trump. And as you led into this story, there was a very serious desecration of the mosque and I had asked Imam Mohammad (INAUDIBLE) and numerous members from the clergy from a variety of faiths to come which was the primary reason for the press conference. Donald Trump in his insane remarks were an add-on because they all happened about the same time.
So the desecration of the mosque is under investigation by the Philadelphia police department. And we are seeking answers and we want to get the person who did that hateful action. At the same time, it is not helpful in the rhetoric of whether to campaign or general commentary that a presidential candidate proposes to ban Muslims from coming into the United States of America, including those who are already American citizens, some of whom are serving valiantly in our military and have died for the country and it is just the most insane kind of idea, way beyond American values.
Donald Trump has crossed Rubicon of traditional American values and is still in a reality TV mode and thinks that all of this is just fun and games. It's not. When you run for a higher office to lead, try to lead the United States of America. You have to be much more serious in your words and much more sensitive in what you say.
[20:22:00] COOPER: In terms of words, though, you also said that conference that quote "he is taken a page from the playbook of Hitler, demonized a group, blame that group for country's problems and then seek to ban or eliminate that group as some kind of a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Is that really comparing Donald Trump to Hitler?
NUTTER: The comparison was about the playbook. It was about the actions. And that is exactly as students of history know, that is exactly what happened back at that time and other atrocities that have taken place in this world over time.
He is -- Donald Trump is trying to demonize Muslims. He is trying to demonize the Islamic faith and blame this group of people for the problems of our country and then seek to ban or eliminate them from the United States of America. That is an exact page out of that kind of playbook. It is dangerous rhetoric. It is negative at the highest level and that's not what American politics should be about.
The true Muslim people in the United States of America and internationally, true followers of Islam are peaceful people. They are loving people. They take care of their families and their children. They are an important component of American and international society. And he is reckless with his language.
We are trying to seriously conduct a presidential election. We have a standing in the world for the many, many things that America does well and we don't always do everything right, but we actually have to -- people pay attention to what happens in the United States of America. They pay attention to presidential elections and people who are, you know, quote-unquote "leading in the polls" or sucking up every possible piece of air time. And he is being reckless and irresponsible.
People in his own Republican party are denouncing activities. He will be in New York at a Pennsylvania related event. You already talked about what happened here in Philadelphia and he should not be part of that. He needs to apologize to the Muslim community and America and internationally.
COOPER: Mayor, appreciate your time. Mayor Nutter, thank you.
Just ahead, we have breaking news in the San Bernardino terror investigation. We now know who helped the male shooter plan a 2012 attack that was apparently never carried out. Now, that's what he is telling investigators, whether or not it's true there are questions from investigators themselves.
Also find out about the questions U.S. officials failed to ask the wife before letting her get a visa into the country.
[20:28:29] COOPER: There is breaking news in the San Bernardino investigation to tell you about. U.S. officials say Enrique Marquez, the neighbor who bought the gun used in last week's deadly terror attack, has been giving up details about a plan he and the male shooter allegedly planned in 2012 but didn't carry out. Now, this was before the San Bernardino attackers met and married. Investigators are also learning more about when the couple became radicalized. Some information coming from Marquez himself.
There are also new details about the vetting of the wife before she was granted the K-1 vista to enter the United States. The picture that is coming into focus, it is disturbing to say the least.
Justice correspondent Pamela Brown joins me with the latest. So let's talk about this guy Enrique Marquez and this alleged terror
PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: This is a former neighbor and friend of Syed Farook, this Enrique Marquez. And he has been talking to investigators giving a wealth of information over the last two days. And he talked about this 2012 plot that the two had in California. He told investigators they had scoped out a target, but that they got spooked because there had been a round of terror related arrests in that area so they decided not to move forward with it.
This is the same person, Anderson, who bought guns around that time, those two AR-15s he gave them to Farook. Those guns were later used in the San Bernardino attack but Marquez denies any involvement in that attack. He told investigators he was radicalized along with Farook as early as 2011. It is important to point, he checked himself in to a mental health hospital right after the attack. Officials need to corroborate what he is telling them, verified those details which is difficult to do.
Also important to point out that investigators are looking at the circumstances surrounding his marriage to a woman of Russian-descent. That is under scrutiny. This woman came to the U.S. from Russia in 2009 and according to a law enforcement officials, they are looking into whether their marriage was legit. She didn't show up, by the way, for her appointment this week with an immigration official, Anderson.
COOPER: There is also new information coming from the State Department about Tashfeen Malik's visa application interview. What have we learned?
BROWN: That's right. We're learning from a senior State Department official that Farook's wife Tashfeen Malik was not asked about jihadist lenience when she was met in person - when she met in person with the U.S. counselor or official for an interview in Pakistan last year. This official says that this is not mandatory, that line of questioning be asked unless red flags came up during the DHS check before the interview, but both State Department and DHS say this is a shared responsibility. Plenty of blame to go around here. The bottom line is with this fiance visa, she came in on, they are more focused on whether this relationship was legitimate. In this case, clearly they thought it was, Anderson.
COOPER: Right. Even though they said they have background checks for this process, it's really about whether or not the marriage is legitimate.
BROWN: That's right.
COOPER: And not the political leanings of somebody or religious leanings or ideological leanings. We also learned today the FBI believes the two attackers were radicalized before they even met which is really interesting.
BROWN: That's right. And we've been reporting, Anderson, it's believed they have been radicalized before ISIS even came onto the stage and now James Comey, the director of the FBI is saying that they have uncovered online communications between the two of them from late 2013 before they even began dating, before they met. They were discussing jihad apparently. So, clearly, this is something that goes back several years. We know, Anderson, investigators have found data on a tablet computer, other cell phones at the couple's home. The FBI also has the benefits, of course, from data from U.S. intelligence agencies, but they haven't been able to retrieve data from those two damaged cell phones found in the trash can and they haven't found that hard drive from the house, Anderson.
COOPER: All right, Pam, thanks for the reporting.
The picture that's coming into focus just gets more and more disturbing now that we know the killers were radicalized before they even met and planned their deadly attack from the home they shared with the husband's mother. Hard to fathom that no one around them had any clue about they were up to, which goes directly to a key element of the fight against ISIS and other Islamist extremist groups that everyone is on board with alerting authorities to potential threats.
Ayyan Hirsi Ali is the author of "Heretic: Why Islam Needs a Reformation Now" and the founder of the AHA foundation. I spoke with her earlier today.
COOPER: It's interesting, there's now reporting that FBI director saying there was talk of jihad online between these two around 2013.
AYAAN HIRSI ALI, AUTHOR "HERETIC": Yes.
COOPER: And now this neighbor, there may have -- his claims there was a potential plot in 2012. This is before ISIS.
HIRSI ALI: That is before the caliphate was declared. It's not accurate who say that they were radicalized by ISIS. It means they were radical before that. What it tells me is what I've been telling you and everyone else all along, that hundreds and hundreds of thousands of Muslims are radicalized.
COOPER: Around the world.
HIRSI ALI: Around the world and in the United States of America, as well. And the big question for us is, and again, I don't like the word radical or radicalized. These are people who have become more pious and who tend to observe Islam literally. They take the Koran literally. They observe, you know, they try to follow in the example of the Prophet Muhammad literally. That's what we've come to radical in extreme. And that, the people who have that mentality and that mindset are not a minority and they are not a fringe minority.
COOPER: And they don't necessarily need a group like ISIS, I mean, that might sort of give them focus and might give them a name to claim allegiance to, but I mean, as you said, this was happening before ISIS had a caliphate. HIRSI ALI: Exactly. I think these people were already -- they
already believed what they executed and I think the big problem is because the number of people who believe in this within Muslim communities and families, definitely not all, but it is so large, that these individuals who want to take, you know, an action, to take it beyond believing and beyond practicing, but actually want to kill people, they have a large enough group to hide in.
COOPER: Do you believe, I mean, when people say look, we had no idea, friends, family. I mean it does seem hard to believe that somebody comes up with an idea like this, a plan like this, and doesn't talk to others about it, whether those people they will act out on it or not or whether they are somewhat sympathetic or whatever the case may be.
HIRSI ALI: I don't believe it. It is the same people, some of the families who say when their children sneak off to ISIS and they are caught at an airport or when they've gone to, oh my goodness, I didn't know that my child was planning to do this.
HIRSI ALI: I think that there is a great deal and here is, you know, the uncomfortable truth really, there is a great deal of consensus in terms of belief. The family or some of the family members may not want themselves to execute an act of jihad, but if a fellow believer is doing that and he's investing in martyrdom, then who are you as a believer to stop him or even worse, to report him to the infidel authorities? It's once you understand that mentality and that process, then we can get to okay, how can we, how can we perhaps persuade these people these ideas are bad? But to do that, we have to call a spade a spade.
COOPER: And when you hear Donald Trump say ban all Muslims from coming to the United States until we figure out what the heck is going on, whatever - actually that means, what do you think?
HIRSI ALI: I was a politician and I know that when, you know, a politician or a candidate says, makes remarks like this, and it resonates, that it's not only what the candidate is saying, what I think of it is I think it's a bad idea. I don't think we should do what Trump is saying. We do it - if we could do it, I don't think we can, but even if we could do it, I think it's a bad approach and it gives a false promise where a large number of American voters think that if they elect Trump, that he has the solution to this long-term ideological war.
COOPER: Thank you very much.
HIRSI ALI: You are welcome. Thank you.
Ayyan Hirsi Ali. Just ahead, more breaking news about the San Bernardino terrorist killers. New questions tonight about whether their marriage was designed for terror whether they exploited a weakness in the U.S. visa system to carry out their deadly aims.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [20:40:56]
COOPER: More breaking news as we reported earlier, the female shooter in the San Bernardino terror attack was not asked about jihadist leanings when she was interviewed at the U.S. embassy in Pakistan after applying for a K1 fiancee visa to come to the United States. Questions as well about whether the marriage was a sham just to get her into the country. Tom Foreman joins us now with a closer look at how you get K1 visas. How does the process work?
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, if an American wants to marry the citizen of another country and bring them here, they are going to need this fiancee visa and start with the stack of paperwork. Nine pages of instructions, six pages to be filled out and what does the government want to know in all of this? Well, first of all, they want to know, the sponsor, the person here is a U.S. citizen. They want to know the couple is planning to marry within 90 days and they need evidence of a real relationship. They need to know at least have seen each other in person once in the past two years. Beyond that they are going to require a valid passport for the person who's coming in, a birth certificate, a divorce or death certificate for any previous spouse, police certificates from every place that this foreign person has lived to make sure they are not a criminal. They'll need medical records to prove that this person coming in does not have a communicable disease and they'll need evidence of employment or income so that we're not talking about a couple that will immediately be unable to support itself.
Get through all of that, then the couple can pay a $340 filing fee, they will be fingerprinting and biometrics taken on the new arrival. There will be extensive background checks to make sure they know who this person is and if you make it through all of that, then you get to an actual face-to-face interview with this person at an embassy or consulate somewhere in the country where they will really probe into all of these answers and all of these details to find out is this really the person we think it is and are they really coming for the reason intended? Anderson?
COOPER: It's really focused, though, on whether it's a legitimate marriage, not so much it seems the political believes or the perhaps radical beliefs of a person. How - I mean the background check, how long do this process actually take? Because in a lot of these countries that people are coming from, they can't really do a full background check because they don't have access to the intelligence service in Syria or Pakistan or wherever it may be.
FOREMAN: You're absolutely right and it is a fast process compared to other visas. About a year, maybe more, maybe less depending on the specifics. Obviously, they would like to catch any misrepresentations or any flags about bigger problems out there. But I will note, not a whole lot of these are approved. If you look back here in 2004, about 29,000, a little under back then, it's moved up and there is a spike last year to about 44,000, but people have been through this say it really is a pretty rigorous process and these numbers point to the fact that it's not so easily used for improper or illegal purposes. Anderson? COOPER: Tom, thanks very much. Joining me now former FBI assistant
director Chris Swecker. Also, CNN analyst and former CIA officer Bob Baer and former FBI executive assistant director Shawn Henry. Chris, how big a security risk do you think are these fiancee visas because again, I mean it does seem like whatever checks are done, it's really focused on whether the marriage itself is legitimate.
CHRIS SWECKER, FORMER FBI ASSISTANT DIRECTOR: You hit it on the head, Anderson. I think it's a gaping hole in our immigration system. I mean gosh, they don't ask the question or they don't question where she came from knowing full well that it's a terrorist breeding ground. You know, I'm just baffled by the whole thing, Anderson. Just - you know, that even though they went through some sort of due diligence vetting process, it was focused on all the wrong things it seems to me.
COOPER: And Bob, even in a case and I think you and I have talked about this before, but, you know, in a case where say she was from Pakistan, if there is not cooperation with the intelligence services in Pakistan, how effective can any background screening really be?
BOB BAER, FORMER CIA OFFICER: Well, exactly, Anderson. The person shows up at your window, you are a visa officer. You ask, I mean, where are you from? That's very cursory, these interviews, and even if you were to ask them whether they are radicalized, they are going to say no and the Pakistanis as we talked about, Anderson, just don't give us the files of people they suspect of having been radicalized, neither the Saudis, a bunch of countries don't.
BAER: So we're at the mercy of whatever this person says, you know, and if she had said I'm not radicalized, I'm just a believer and that's it. The visa officer has to accept that and these things are pretty perfunctory. They are all approved, basically. These K visas for American citizens, it's a huge gaping hole, it really is, of getting people in this country. And, you know, and if she was sent, these people are smart.
COOPER: Chris, I mean the new information today about the couple's neighbor saying that he was part of a planning of a potential attack as far back as 2012, what do you make of that? I mean first of all, the FBI is cautioning, I mean this guy did check himself into a mental facility, mental health facility shortly after the attacks. And it's not clear, I mean, if he's being on the up and up or if he's got some other problems going on, but what do you make of it?
SWECKER: Well, if everything that we're hearing is true, Anderson, I don't think -- and that they did, in fact, try to select some targets in 2012 and Marquez was fully aware of the intense radicalization of Farook, then I don't think it's a question whether he's going to get charged. I think it's a question of when, and how much consideration they will give him for his cooperation because that's full knowledge. And then he provides him with two AR-15s. So, he's definitely an aider and abetter based on the facts that I've heard if they are true. COOPER: Yeah, I mean, Chris, it goes beyond somebody who says well, I
heard him say some things, but I didn't really know. I mean if they in fact did plan or openly talking about, you know, having attacked themselves and then to arm this guy, that does seem like he would be culpable, no?
SWECKER: Looks like -- I mean, at the very bare minimum, aider and abetter, but maybe even a co-conspirator. He may have struck a deal with the government. They will talk to him and they'll listen to him as long as he wants to talk, but at some point, he's going to end up in handcuffs if what we're hearing is actually true and I think some of it is.
COOPER: Sean, there's reports they got some information from electronic intercepts. How likely is that? How important do you think that could be?
SHAWN HENRY, FORMER FBI EXECUTIVE ASSISTANT DIRECTOR: Intercept prior or post?
COOPER: I believe they were prior, I believe.
HENRY: Yeah, so if they are talking about electronic intercept --
COOPER: Yeah, and the information is thin on it, I should say. So ...
HENRY: If they are electronic intercepts that occurred prior to this incident, then the question is going to be where were they? Were they analyzed? Who took a look at them? And what follow up may have been done from that, Anderson. As you know, the intelligence component of this is so critical in preventing any type of attack, the ability to intercept communications and use it for lead purposes from a disruptive perspective is really critical.
COOPER: Bob, when it comes to the timing of when these two individuals were radicalized, I mean, well before the Islamic State had a caliphate before they were considered a major terror threat, they were on the radar, but not to the degree certainly they didn't have the power that they do now in the region, what does that tell you that, I mean, I just find it interesting that it may not have been ISIS per se that made them, that got them radicalized, but they just decided to -- they became radicalized and then decided to - ISIS is the best ones to pledge alliance to?
BAER: Well, Anderson, this doesn't surprise me at all. We spend way too much time parsing these groups, the difference between al Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood and ISIS and the rest of it. The fact is that takriri (ph) jihad, militant jihad is just jihad and you can sort of pick and choose what group you want to bring to. So, she may have come here as a follower. Lashkar-e-Taiba. It's a militant group in Pakistan, very violent. She may have been recruited by them, got here and decided well, the most propaganda value is the Islamic State and she did that Facebook posting in the middle of the attack, which scared a lot of Americans. So, what she believed in who knows, but it's the whole idea of violence that these people adhere to and the defense of their form of Islam and that's all they care about. They don't care about organizations.
COOPER: Bob Baer, Chris Swecker, Shawn Henry, thank you very much.
Up next, anger on the streets of Chicago. Protesters demanding the resignation of the mayor. Details on that next. We'll take you there.
COOPER: Quite a day in Chicago, hundreds of protesters marched into the streets demanding the resignation of the mayor, Rahm Emanuel. The demonstrators shouted "16 shots and a coverup." How they see the deadly police shooting of teenager Laquan MacDonald. The protests started just minutes after the mayor apologized for how the city and the police department handled MacDonald's death. Protesters said the apology was not enough. Martin Savidge was with the protesters this afternoon, he joins us tonight. What was it like out there, Martin?
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, good evening, Anderson. Protests by the way, continuing, just outside the Chicago police headquarters. There's a monthly meeting going on and protesters are definitely inside there. Many of those who are inside now were out on the streets earlier today. And it was impressive for how long it went on. This started at noon, shortly after the mayor as you know made his apology, but it seemed that the more attention that the protesters got, the more that they carried on. It went for five hours. And it went through some of the most important neighborhoods of downtown Chicago, including the Gold Coast, probably one of the most affluent areas, right down the Miracle Mile, that's Michigan Avenue, disrupting traffic, definitely causing or attracting the attention of many bystanders, but it also seemed to be in kind of a loose coordination with the police department. Not the cooperation, but clearly police were there almost in the same numbers as protesters, about 200, and they were blocking intersections and leaping ahead to block other intersections as the protesters made their way. There were a couple of people detained, but after that, they were pretty much saying that those people who were held were released, and it ended all very peacefully. They want Rahm Emanuel to leave, but so far, Rahm Emanuel the mayor, has not done that.
COOPER: Martin Savidge. Thank you. A lot more happening tonight. Randi Kaye has the 360 news and business bulletin. Randi.
KAYE: Anderson, one of the six Baltimore officers charged in the April death of Freddie Gray took the stand today. Officer William Porter testified he didn't realize Gray was injured until the final stop of the van ride. Mr. Gray suffered a broken neck during that ride. Porter is the first officer to stand trial.
In a Colorado courtroom, prosecutors filed 179 felony charges against Robert Lewis Dear, who is accused of killing three people at a Planned Parenthood clinic in Colorado Springs. Dear disrupted the hearing repeatedly, at one point saying I am a warrior for the babies. And 65 Boston College students who got sick after eating at a Chipotle restaurant in Boston have tested positive for the norovirus. More than 120 students in all became ill, an e. coli outbreak linked to other Chipotle restaurants made people sick, Anderson, in at least nine states since October.
COOPER: Thanks very much. We'll be right back.
COOPER: That does it for our broadcast tonight. Thanks for watching. We'll see you again at 11:00 eastern for another edition of "360." "This is Life with Lisa Ling" starts now.