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Two Big New Polls With Encouraging News for Trump; New Warnings of Terrorism in Europe; Former Oklahoma City Police Officer Found Guilty of Rape, Forcible Sodomy. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired December 10, 2015 - 22:00   ET


[22:00:00] DON LEMON, CNN TONIGHT SHOW HOST: Trump on top. Two big new polls with encouraging news for Donald Trump.

This is CNN Tonight. I'm Don Lemon.

The first poll gives Trump a double digit lead over his nearest rival as choice for the GOP nominee and the other shows as well. The republicans support for his proposal to ban Muslims from entering the United States while a majority of Americans disagree.

A lot to get to this hour on here on CNN Tonight, but I want to begin with the day in Trump.

Donald Trump tonight, topping a poll as a likely choice among republican voters for GOP Nominee. And joining me now is Crystal Wright. The editor of Conservative Black Can we call you editor-in-chief? I guess we could, yes.


LEMON: All right. We'll call you queen-in-chief. As well as Rick Wilson. I'm not sure what to call Rick Wilson. We'll figure that out later, and Mercedes Schlapp, but both are republican strategists. We're glad to have you here this evening. So, let's talk.

Crystal, I'm going to start with you. Tonight, CNN is reporting that the party establishment is preparing for the possibility of a brokered convention if Trump stays on top of the polls.

At a dinner this week, the top brass decided that they need a plan for that if that happens. Well, here's a new CBS poll, a New York Times poll. It is out tonight and Trump is on top again. So, do you think there is going to be a brokered convention, Crystal?

WRIGHT: Isn't it interesting that voters, conservative voters have gathered around their top contender and all the establishment can talk about is, oh, my gosh, like little rats skirling around, how do we topple the people's choice, right?

So, I think we could very well have a brokered convention. Trump has said this if he is not treated fairly. But the real -- what's really going on here is what the establishment can't stand is they've lost influence this election. They can't put their money behind one candidate because we have 15 or so, they started out running, and Trump is the choice of the candidates. So, that's all...


LEMON: Is he the people's choice, Mercedes? I mean, not one single voter has been cast yet.

MERCEDES SCHLAPP, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I have to say as a conservative, I mean, I think the conservatives are actually even divided amongst themselves. I mean, you have Senator Ted Cruz who is a conservative. People are supporting him. Obviously you're seeing him going up in the polls.

So, I think that there is this real possibility and I think that's why you have, you know, it's obviously the responsibility of the RNC chair to ensure that he's prepared for any potential outcome. And what we're seeing right now is that we really don't have a clear nominee right at this moment.

There are 14 candidates in the race. We don't know how this is going to flush out. I mean, you can have one individual win Iowa, one individual win New Hampshire, we know that some of these delegates is going to be proportionally distributed.

So, it is a lot more complicated. So, there is this possibility that we are going to see an open convention where delegates, you know, as we know, might be bound to one candidate. If that candidate drops out they're going to go to a second candidate, a second choice. So, this is -- it's going to be a long...


LEMON: That is a lot of math for me as a journalist tonight. OK. SO, listen, in my interview with Donald Trump just yesterday, I asked him about running as an independent versus a republican and he reiterated that he wanted to run as an republican. Listen to this.


DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Just so you understand, that's nothing I want to do. I want to do it just the way I'm doing it. I want to win Iowa. I want to win New Hampshire. I want to win South Carolina. I want to win the SEC, I want to win Nevada. I want to win the whole group. And potentially, I have the capability and I think I have the numbers to run the table.


LEMON: He wants to win the SEC. He wants to win everything. Do you think, Rick, do you think this is going to happen as the RNC have, you know, to walk a fine line here. Because if he runs as an independent it could end up being 1992 all over again with Bill Clinton.

RICK WILSON, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, the problem with Donald is he seems to conflate anyone who speaks against him with the RNC. And chairman Priebus has played this strip in the middle; he's been respectful like he would be to any other candidate.

And the fact that Trump views the solemn pledge he signed as being something that he can walk away from if he's not happy with how other people speak about him is -- who aren't part of the national party structure is absurd.

But you know, the threat, the gun to our head, the 'I'll walk away and be an independent.' You know, you can only play game so many times. If he does it, he does it. And that's, you know, that's him handing the election to Hillary Clinton.


LEMON: Why will you...

WILSON: He will not be able to win as a third party candidate.

SCHLAPP: That's right.

WILSON: But he will hand it to Hillary Clinton if he runs as a third party candidate.

LEMON: You seem taken aback by that, Crystal. I saw your face who have said gone to the head.

WRIGHT: Well, I mean, what bothers me, Rick, a little bit about what you're saying is, again, it's like -- it's like this idea that a certain country club like you might be a part of it. I'm certainly not part of it. You guys know best. Instead of attacking Trump, if you really don't want a third party he's the one being threatened every day, you know, Reince Priebus, all these establishment


WILSON: Well, boohoo, Crystal, let me tell you something.

SCHLAPP: I say that's unfair. That's unfair.

WRIGHT: Wait, let me finish. Getting super PAC...

LEMON: So, let her...

WILSON: Politics is a...

WRIGHT: Let me finish.

WILSON: Politics is a tough business.

WRIGHT: And you know why this is happening? Wait, let me finish first.

WILSON: And if Donald Trump is just a delicate little princess you can't take people's -- takes it certain...

[22:05:01] WRIGHT: You are attacking me because I'm saying the truth. The reality is the party...

WILSON: No, I'm telling you this is a tough business.

WRIGHT: ... the party, the reason why -- it is a tough business.

WILSON: And if Donald Trump is so delicate.

LEMON: One at a time, please. One at a time.

WRIGHT: OK. Let me finish. The reality -- the reason...

WILSON: If Donald Trump is so delicate, if he can't take criticism...

WRIGHT: He's not delicate.

WILSON: ... from outside parties.

WRIGHT: Reince Priebus, you guys are delicate.

LEMON: Mercedes, you and I will go in the other room and we'll let them talk. So, Crystal, Crystal...

SCHLAPP: I am going to talk.

WILSON: This is a wrong business idea.

SCHLAPP: I'm the one with a broken hand, so I'm going to talk.

WRIGHT: I just want to finish one really quick because it's very important.

LEMON: Let her finish her statement.

WRIGHT: OK. You have Reince Priebus and you have Lindsey Graham calling Donald Trump a racist and a bigot. I would like to point out Donald Trump...

SCHLAPP: Reince Priebus never said that.

WRIGHT: Can I finish?

WILSON: Crystal, Crystal, no, he didn't -- Reince Priebus did not say that.

WRIGHT: OK. Reince Priebus said...

WILSON: No, he did not say that.

WRIGHT: ... that he suggested because of -- he lambasted him for the Muslims comments. Lindsey Graham called Trump a race fading bigot. I would argue Lindsey Graham who's defended flying the Confederate Flag over South Carolina. And Reince Priebus who can't even name the number of black people who work at the RNC.

And remember, he was supposed to be a part of this inclusion phenomenon at we'd lost in 2012. Donald Trump has done more to outreach to blacks to talk to -- to talk to real Americans than the RNC establishment has ever done.


LEMON: Let them respond, Crystal.

WRIGHT: And this is why we are in this state we are...

LEMON: OK. Rick first. Rick first, Rick first. Go ahead, Rick.

WILSON: First off, Crystal, that was a dispersion on the chairman that I think you know was sloppy.


WRIGHT: CNN has done a lot of reporting on. He wasn't sloppy.

WILSON: I think -- I think you know that was a dispersion that was undeserved. Secondly...

WRIGHT: Absolutely not.

WILSON: ... let's go right back -- let's go right back to the point.

WRIGHT: Let's talk about this dispersion...


LEMON: Let -- hey, you asked him not to interrupt. So, let him finish. Let him finish.

WILSON: Lindsey Graham -- Lindsey Graham and every other American still, I know this is a shock to Trump supporters but the First Amendment still obtained. That other people are allowed to say things about Donald Trump even if his precious little delicate ego gets hurt. Other people are allowed to say things about Donald Trump. And I'm sorry, politics is a tough game. If he doesn't like it he should pursue something else like being a reality...


LEMON: All right. Let Mercedes get in. Go ahead, Mercedes.

SCHLAPP: Number one -- number one, Reince Priebus -- let me tell you something. Reince Priebus is going to support the republican nominee, period.

WILSON: Correct.

SCHLAPP: Because at the end of the day the last thing we need it's Hillary Clinton as president. Number two, here's the deal with Donald Trump. We have to -- we should have all of the republican candidates sign a pledge saying that they're going to support the nominee.

They did it with Donald Trump and all these other candidates like Kasich, Lindsey Graham, and all the other ones should say, if Donald Trump is the republican nominee we have to back him up. That's what needs to happen.

LEMON: OK, guys. I want you to listen to what some voters told my colleague Alisyn Camerota. Look at this.


PAUL DIBARTOLO, TRUMP SUPPORTER: When San Bernardino happened it's the first terrorist attack on American soil since 9/11. Let me tell you something. It brought back a lot of bad memories for all of us, OK, especially New Yorkers.

I'm a New Yorker, I watched as those towers were coming down, OK. And 9/11, I don't care about upsetting a few Muslims or upsetting a few people, OK, because when I think of 9/11 every day, OK, I think of the fireman's faces, the looks on their faces as they were running into the towers to save people, OK?

They were rushing towards death, OK? And I think -- I think of all of the little boys and the little girls, OK, that lost their heroes that morning, their moms and their dads, I think of that, OK, that's what I care about and that's what Donald Trump cares about.


LEMON: That focus group was amazing if you watch, if you got to see it on here CNN. Crystal, we all know Donald Trump is a great salesman, no doubt about that. But he's got some tough talk.

What would he do in the Oval Office, I try to get to yesterday, you didn't really, you kept sort of moving around there. I said you don't know what happens when you sit in that seat. But a lot of experts say his proposals would really hurt us in the war on terror.

WRIGHT: Well, I'm not working for Donald Trump. That a question as you said that you've asked him. But he has talked about being more aggressive in Syria and not waiting as long as the president did.

Look, even Hillary Clinton has said that she would have done a no-fly zone, right? Donald Trump, I believe has supported that. But I want to go back to something that Mercedes said. She's exactly right.

If Trump had to sign -- Trump signed a pledge but the pledge needs to go both ways. All the candidates instead of attacking Trump, and not all is attacking him need to say, if Trump is the nominee we will get behind him. If they got, you know, so.

LEMON: OK. All right. Thank you for that segue. Because I want to talk about, this is Ted Cruz, the New York Times has obtained audio of Ted Cruz at a fund raising event yesterday. He's questioning the judgment of both Donald Trump and Ben Carson, and he had this to say about his own strategy. Listen.


TED CRUZ, (R) U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The final two candidates I'll discuss are Trump and Ben Carson. Both of them I like and respect, both Donald and Ben. I do not believe either one of them is going to be our nominee. I don't believe either of them is going is going to be our president.

I think both of them their campaigns have a natural arc. So, my approach much to the frustration of the media has been to bear hug both of them and smother them with love.

[22:10:07] Rick, it's kind of genius, isn't it? I mean, to -- do you think this was leaked on purpose?

WILSON: Well, I don't know if it was leaked on purpose but Cruz has what I called the pilot fish strategy for a long time.

LEMON: What is that?

WILSON: And sort of swimming -- swimming alongside of the great white shark of Donald Trump and avoiding -- and avoiding being eaten. And I've also said that Cruz has been very careful to keep feeding the alligator a little at a time that hopes that the alligator tries to eat him last.

SCHLAPP: That's right.

WILSON: So, it's not an unwise strategy but I don't know necessarily what happens to Ted Cruz on that moment when Donald Trump does decide to turn on him and blow him up. Because the intensity and the ferocity of the Cruz supporters is such that if he declared that Ted Cruz was an enemy of the state, the guy would be in the witness protection program the next day.

LEMON: You know, Cruz questioning -- that was pretty good, Rick. I can always count on you for these little zingers. But do you, guys, I mean, questioning trump's judgment, do you think that this -- again, Mercedes, I'll ask you this, this could have been leaked on purpose and will it hurt Cruz? I mean, what is your thought on this?

SCHLAPP: No, I just don't think it's going to hurt Cruz. I don't know if it was leaked on purpose or not. I think obviously Cruz is talking to his supporters, to his supporters are asking the basic question, well, what is this Trump phenomenon, what is this Carson phenomenon.

Cruz has made very smart on his strategy. He has made this decision not to attack Trump. They've had, you know, a friendly relationship. And Cruz, let me tell you, is building a very strong ground game in places like Iowa.

He is looking at the southern states and saying he can win those Evangelical voters. But again, he is competing for a lot of the same voters right now that aren't -- who are supporting Trump. So, it is going to be an interesting phenomenon.

LEMON: Yes. Next time, guys, I want you to bring your "a" game. OK? Thank you, guys.

SCHLAPP: Oh, come on. LEMON: I appreciate that. I can't wait for the next CNN debate. CNN

host the next republican presidential debate next Tuesday, December 15th, Las Vegas.

Up next, results of a new poll on just how fearful Americans are of new terror attack.

And there is good news for Trump in that poll. Also, as investigators try to determine the extent of the San Bernardino shooters ties to terror, there are warning today of a new plot against a major European city. We're going to have more on that, next.


LEMON: We have some breaking news to tell you about tonight. Former Oklahoma City police officer, Daniel Holtzclaw has been found guilty of rape and forcible sodomy. He was charged with 36 counts of sexual crimes against 13 African-American women while he was on the job. Holtzclaw will be sentenced next month and faces more than 200 years in prison. We'll follow-up on CNN.

Following the deadly attacks in Paris and San Bernardino, Americans are more afraid now than at any other time since September 11th of another terrorist attack on U.S. soil.

That is according to a New York Times CBS poll which shows one in five believe it's most important -- the most important issue facing the country. And among the republican voters 40 percent say that they are very confident in Donald Trump's ability to handle terror threats.

So, joining me now is Bob Baer, intelligence and security analyst, and Ahmed Shihab-Eldin, a correspondent for Vice on HBO.

Gentlemen, good to have you here. Mr. Baer, starting with you. The San Bernardino attack has sparked real fear in people and each new development in the investigation seem to point to a wider, deeper plot. Where do you think this is all going?

BOB BAER, CNN INTELLIGENCE AND SECURITY ANALYST: Not a good place. I think Americans -- this came as a surprise to them. You know, they thought we went into Afghanistan and Iraq to stop this. Fourteen years later we've got the same problem, a big attack.

And it's worse in a way because it's Americans involved and there are so many converts to this, to this cult, and it is a death cult and the police are worried. I talked to law enforcement a lot and they said, well, what does a single officer do, who arrives with an active with an active shooter with automatic weapons? What's a training?

Do they use flash bang grenades, do they use concussion grenades? I mean, they are -- they are the police who are ready to go to war and the FBI right now is all over San Bernardino and Riverside afraid that it's a bigger network out there and they don't know for sure and that's -- they are -- they are on this, they are very, very anxious.

LEMON: I want to bring in Ahmed now. Despite being afraid, and here is the new poll, OK, so afraid. A new poll by NBC to Wall Street Journal, shows a big majority of Americans, 57 percent oppose Trump's plan to ban Muslims. But when you break it down by party, Ahmed, 42 percent of republicans, 30 percent of independent support it. Are you worried about how Muslims in this country will be affected by this?

AHMED SHIHAB-ELDIN, VICE CORRESPONDENT ON HBO: Of course, I'm worried. Trump's comments are divisive, they're disgusting and they're very dangerous. And, you know, sadly, this shouldn't come as a surprise.

I mean, he is simply channeling a pervasive perception that's existed since 9/11 and continues to get worse that Muslims are something to be feared, that they are incompatible with the West. Then we've seen hate crimes rise against Muslims. We've seen hate speech drive against Muslims.


LEMON: The CAIR (ph) was evacuated today, there have been attacks against mosques around the country. You're expecting a backlash.

SHIHAB-ELDIN: Yes, of course. There was a pig's head put there. And you know what's really troubling about this...

LEMON: Can you blame Trump for that do you think?

SHIHAB-ELDIN: I don't know -- I don't know whether that's really important. I think what we can blame Trump for is to continue to create this illusion and perpetuate this notion that -- ISIS is actually perpetuating which is that we are at a clash of civilizations, that the West is at war with Islam.

And what's really, really frightening about this is that a majority of republicans, as you just mentioned agree with him, one in five democrats apparently are behind this new proposal. And this is nothing new.

You know, for 15 years, we've been waging war against Muslim majority countries and it's kind of troubling that this is...


LEMON: When you say one in five democrats, I mean, you know, because democrats are the liberal party, right?


LEMON: That he has to...

SHIHAB-ELDIN: Well, there is a lot of ignorance around what is Muslim -- what is, you know, Islam and what it actually means.

LEMON: And what it means to be a Muslim.

SHIHAB-ELDIN: And I think that, you know, the real issue here is that this is not just an embarrassment for us as Americans, but it's really troubling that he is gaining so much traction and that it seems as though, you know, he is exploiting and capitalizing just like ISIS is, this false notion that we are, you know, at war with Islam with 1.5 billion people.

[22:20:06] LEMON: All right. I want you guys to listen. This is what Donald Trump said to me yesterday about San Bernardino, the terrorists. Listen.


TRUMP: The public agrees with what I said. They saw those two animals last week go out and shoot people and the husband and wife, the wife came here on a phony visa, on a visa that frankly it's disgraceful that she was able to come in and she radicalized, probably radicalized him.

LEMON: Fiancee visa.

TRUMP: She had a fiancee visa.

LEMON: Yes, fiancee via.

TRUMP: And a disgusting, disgraceful thing. So, the people that are with me a 100 percent are the people -- and that's frankly all that matters. The politicians -- look, the politicians are very upset. They haven't caught on. I don't think they will catch on.


LEMON: So, Bob, he says the people are with them. Let me -- but he calls terrorists animals. And frankly, a lot of people agree with him. Do you think this kind of language will help the cause, his cause, maybe?

BAER: Well, I mean, clearly, those people were savages in anybody's definition. But there are couple of things we can't forget is that more Muslims are dying in this war than anybody else. You look at Syria and Iraq.

You know, and the second thing is, you know, having spent my entire life in the Middle East is we need these people, we need the Muslim that countries to turn on this cult, these radicals that which are not really accepted in Islam and I say that in all belief.

And we need Saudi Arabia, we need Pakistan, we need them to close down these madrasas. We need to close down Wahhabi Islam and that's strain, which gears people up for these attacks. And this is all through history, this has happened where Islam has turned against the militants and destroyed them. And they've never been destroyed from the outside. It's always been...

LEMON: OK. Go ahead.

SHIHAB-ELDIN: And Bob, I mean, Bob, to your point, I mean, I don't mean to interrupt. But you bring up Saudi Arabia and it's just, you know, it's really heartening that we keep having the same conversations about, you know, whether or not Islam is inherently evil, whether or not, you know, Muslims should be condemning this rather than talking about the hundred billion dollars and arms that we have sold to Saudi Arabia in the past five years.

The fact that Saudi Arabia has been exporting Wahhabism which is, you know, the premise that, you know, all these groups, these extremist groups based a lot of their ideology on. And this really points to the power...

BAER: Exactly.

SHIHAB-ELDIN: I think, to your point, I mean, it points to the power, Don, you know, of terrorism. It points to the main weapon of fear that we've seen time and time again be used to first paralyze the public herein America and across the world. And then provoke...


SHIHAB-ELDIN: ... propitious reactions that really only lead us to the cycle of violence, the cycle of politics and frankly, the media and their...


LEMON: But before you get involve -- point taken. But when you're talking about the United States and someone who is running for president here in the United States who says -- and you are talking about, you know, what the United States has done...


LEMON: ... to perpetuate terrorism worldwide.


LEMON: But when you're talking about here in the United States he is running here. People aren't going to vote for him overseas. The American people are voting for him. And he is finding...


SHIHAB-ELDIN: But, Don, but, Don, what about our moral standing? What about our reputation?

LEMON: Listen, I don't disagree with you. But what I'm saying is, there is an issue here in the United States that we're discussing on this program that we're talking about a presidential election in the United States.


LEMON: Those issues should be dealt with and can be dealt with. But here, listen, let me do this -- let me do this and then you guys can respond because I want to get to this before we ran out of time.

I just want to put this up of Muhammed Ali. SHIHAB-ELDIN: Sure.

LEMON: He's a remarkable man. He put the statement out, I think it was yesterday he said. He says "We, as Muslims have to stand up to those who use Islam to advance their own personal agenda. Speaking as someone at someone who has never been accused of political correctness. I believe that our political leaders should use their position to bring understanding about the religion of Islam and clarify that these misguided murderers have perverted people's views on what Islam really is."

Go ahead, Ahmed.

SHIHAB-ELDIN: Right. But shouldn't we also as Americans stand up to people like Donald who are aiding and abating terrorism and terrorist.

LEMON: I thought that's what I said to you.

SHIHAB-ELDIN: Right. But this is what I'm saying, it's not just that we should stand up against, you know, the extremists. There are extremists on all sides.


SHIHAB-ELDIN: Here in America and France, Marine Le Pen, I mean, people are exploiting and capitalizing this situation and this dichotomy by actually adapting ISIS' script and trying to drive a wedge...

BAER: Exactly.

SHIHAB-ELDIN: ... alienate Muslims in order to, you know, create a rift in the American society.

LEMON: Bob, I'll give you -- I'll give you the last word. I'm out of time.

BAER: Ahmed is exactly right.

LEMON: And that's the last word.

BAER: Look, the problem is -- going back to 2003, the government has been wrong about the conflict in the Middle East and the Americans don't trust the government, whether it's republican or democrat and that's why they're looking to Trump as somebody who appears to speak truthfully. You know, I don't think he does. But Americans are frustrated with this war. It's gone on forever...


LEMON: That's got to be the last word. I'm sorry, Ahmed. We're out of time. Thank you, gentlemen. I really appreciate it. Great conversation.

Up next, the man who is called the Jon Stewart of the Middle East. What he thinks about Trump's call to block Muslims from entering the U.S. There he is, right there.


LEMON: Bassem Youssef is an Egyptian comedian and political satirist who has a lot to say about Donald Trump's call to ban Muslims from coming to the U.S. He's often called the Jon Stewart of the Middle East. He had a TV show that was modeled on Stewart's Daily Show. Here is a clip of the two men together.


BASSEM YOUSSEF, EGYPTIAN SATIRIST AND COLUMNIST: Seriously though, you can't it go. America is like a dog with a hot spot on its butt called the Middle East. And you think you have to keep licking it but you're just making it worse.

JON STEWART, THE DAILY SHOW HOST: Are you saying -- are you saying that America has to...


STEWART: Oh, no, not the cone.

YOUSSEF: You need the cone, Jon. America needs the cone. Yes.

STEWART: No, we can't wear the cone.



LEMON: Bassem joins me now from Dubai. It's good to have you. How you doing?

YOUSSEF: Hi, I'm good. How are you?

LEMON: I'm great. I'm not sure if you think this is a laughing matter. How much of what Donald Trump is saying, how much attention is it getting in the Middle East?

[22:30:03] YOUSSEF: Oh, he's getting a lot of attention. I mean, you know, we are already having our own Donald Trump in the Middle East but they are opinion leaders, even heads of states and very popular people.

And this is why the Middle East is one big mess. So, please, America, learn from us. Please? Because this is the prequel of what's happening now. So don't. Just don't go there.

LEMON: What should -- what should we learn from you? You said please, America, learn from us, what should we learn from you?

YOUSSEF: Oh, yes, just don't get Donald Trump. Because this is what happens when you have someone like Donald Trump in charge. Because we have our own bigoted as you know, xenophobic, racist people who actually drive a lot of public opinion here. And this is what you get. It's like a lovely, beautiful, Middle East. As you can all see.

LEMON: Yes. So, you know, you're a satirist, comedian. Are people laughing about this or do they think it's dangerous?

YOUSSEF: Well, you know, you just laugh for the couple -- the first couple of minutes and say, wait, this is very dangerous. Because, I mean, well, I mean, what's next? I mean, let's ban Muslim from getting into the United States, let's put I.D. tags from the people who are already there, let's build a wall to prevent those rapist Mexicans to go in and let's make fun of people with disabilities.

I mean, we are just like a couple of steps away from, I don't know, concentration camps and maybe a gas furnaces and to have -- to complete the whole Donald Trump here, which is, by the way, called Nazis. This is stupid.

And what's really even more scary is not what Donald Trump is saying, I mean, there are stupid people everywhere in the world. What's really scary is the amount of support that he is having like the recent poll you've just shown on CNN, 35 percent of the GOP like supporters, they support Trump, 35 percent.

The second -- second place, 16 percent. It is really scary. Like the amount of -- the amount of support he is getting and the many people actually buying into his narrative.


LEMON: But can you blame all of that, Bassem, on -- can you blame all of that on ignorance? You know, you're saying, oh, well, there are lots of stupid people. I'm not sure what you're referring to, but can you blame all of that on just Donald Trump and his supporters?

YOUSSEF: Well, no, I think you reap what you sow. I think this has started like many years ago. It started with a certain narrative that happened. You start with George W. Bush, new cons (ph) then you went into Sarah Palin and then you end up with Donald Trump and Tea Party and all of this.

So, it's base -- it didn't happen overnight. And yes, there are mistakes everywhere. But you can't just like use certain things that's happening, the word is an excuse to put other people in danger. Now, yes, there are many people who use the narrative of religion in a dangerous way.

And by the way, many -- most Muslims are actually subject to that threat more than anybody else. ISIS has killed more Muslims than they killed anybody else. I mean, we are -- we are in this together. But the thing is you can't just like use that in order to alienate everybody else.

We, as Muslims we don't have some sort of collective mind that drives us. We don't have a Facebook group that we go in and we decide how we terrorize the rest of the world. There are many Muslims who are called Ahmed Mohamed and Mahmoud. They are -- some of them developed, some of them are not. Some of them

pray, some of them don't. Some of them are eve atheists. Some of those people who look Muslims and look brown they are Sikh or Christian Arabs.


YOUSSEF: But the way that this is going, you create a whole like collective mind of xenophobia, making people look at anybody in the street who looks different than them as a potential time bomb.


YOUSSEF: And this is why recently you had people who have been removed from airplanes because other passengers were not -- were not comfortable.


LEMON: Baseem.

YOUSSEF: If you look at me, I mean, I don't have like a beard -- yes.

LEMON: I don't know, you may have just shaved it tonight. That was a joke. But listen, a lot of Muslims in the Middle East have been...


LEMON: ... have been critical of Donald Trump. he is losing some business, and I discussed that with him just last night. Listen.


DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: What I'm doing now is far more important. And I'm talking about for the Muslims, I'm doing good for the Muslims. What I'm doing now is far more important than any particular business I have in the Middle East.


LEMON: Makes a lot of money and does a lot of business. You think that's little hypocritical, don't you?

YOUSSEF: Well, of course. I mean, I think Donald Trump hates Muslims unless they have very deep pockets. I mean, he has been in the Middle East and he's been actually having a lot of investment. He doesn't see them as a threat because of their money.

But I think what he's doing what's far more important that he is driving that kind of narrative of hate and racism through people. And by the way, you first, you asked me about like should we blame only those people who are ignorant of what's happening?

[22:35:01] Fear is an incredibly dangerous weapon. When you put any group of people under like a constant feeling of fear, you will drive them to do things that you -- they might thought have actually -- I mean, I'm sure that many of Donald Trump's supporters didn't think that they would actually accept banning a certain group of people a few years ago.

But the thing is the constant narrative of fear is just very, very dangerous. And it makes people go through very extreme -- yes?

LEMON: Yes. I want to get this in. I'm sorry about the delay, but we have a short time together, but I really appreciate, you know, what you're saying.

So, more to the point when we talk about, you know, is it can you just blame Donald Trump or fear. Because Islam has a reputation in the West as being intolerant particularly in the Middle Eastern countries.

For example, your show in Egypt poked fun of the former President Mohammed Morsi. You were arrested, you were interrogated. You were accused of insulting Islam. So, how hard is it for -- if it's hard for a comedian, right, to do this, can you understand why it may be hard for Americans who are not so familiar with Islam to understand the nuance here?

YOUSSEF: Well, this is not like -- I mean, yes, I have my problems with an Islamic country but I also had a problem with the -- I'm sorry, an Islamic government, but I also had my problems with the regime that removed the Islamic regime.

So, I was actually banned after Morsi not during Morsi. So, the fact is it's not just them. It's the whole -- we have a problem in the Middle East with democracy in general. It's not only an Islamic problem, it is also a military problem. It's not them -- not only like in Islamic fascism, we also have military fascism.

So, this is only one side of the story. The fact that you are telling that Islam has a reputation, you need to ask what is causing this reputation. Because, yes, we have our problem but you can't just collectively judge a certain group of people because of the act of many people who are terrorizing those are or that same people.

I mean, of course if you are watching Fox News and you -- they are bringing on their very extreme Sheikhs, they only have one or two, they only bring on there. Of course, this is going to be the only image you have of the Middle East.

LEMON: Right.

YOUSSEF: But you just -- this kind of narrative is very deficient because -- so, would the Christianity have a very bad reputation because of this abortion clinic bombing and Planned Parenthood?

I mean, the fact that like, you somehow, that we, as a group of Muslims have to apologize or be on our toes and please forgive us for these people are doing while we might ask this so many other groups or religions, too.

LEMON: Right. Yes.

YOUSSEF: I mean, there are stupid people and basically jerks in every religion.

LEMON: Well, Bassem...

YOUSSEF: But you can't -- it's like to put us all in one package just like it's not right.

LEMON: We appreciate you joining us. And thank you for bringing your perspective here. We'll have you back. Thanks.

YOUSSEF: Thank you very much.

LEMON: Coming up, despite all the backlash after his proposed ban on Muslims entering the U.S., Donald Trump told me he is not a racist.

A former Celebrity Apprentice contestant and my superstar, guest star, Star Jones, there are so many stars in here. Does she agree with that? That's next.


LEMON: So, during my interview with Donald Trump he told me that the public knows he is right about his plan to ban Muslims from entering the United States.

Here with me to give her thoughts, Star Jones, the president of the National Association of Professional Women and Professional Diversity Network. She came on and she said, "You know I have a real title, not just former Celebrity Apprentice."

STAR JONES, NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF PROFESSIONAL WOMEN PRESIDENT: One hundred percent. I've don't have a lot of things (Inaudible)


LEMON: But the reason -- the reason we have you on, one of the reasons...


LEMON: ... that we have you on, we're going to talk. We know that you went to a big Hillary Clinton event tonight. You're very supportive of her. We're going to -- and trust me, we will get to that. But you know the man. You have known him for 20 years. What is your take on his proposal to ban Muslims temporarily from U.S.?

JONES: Well, anybody who loves America and loves what America stands for does not think that this is something that anybody should be advocating and I tend to agree with other learned people and thought leaders who have said that it should almost bar you from being President of the United States.

Anybody that would put forth a policy of exclusion based solely on religion, it's a religious test. And I can't understand how you can call yourself an American and say you love America but you don't like Americans and you don't like American values. And that's a problem.

LEMON: It's hard to get people to understand that we have restricted people on certain countries when we were at war.


LEMON: If there issues like the Iranian hostage crisis, visas were limited for certain people. But we, as Americans don't usually -- we haven't restricted people, right? On -- based on religion. It's not just part of the Constitution.

JONES: And actually, you know, it happened (ph) back, I spent my birthday two years ago in Israel and it was really an amazing experience for me to be baptized in the Jordan River and to walk along the path where Christ walked and to actually go to the Holocaust Museum there and learn a little bit about what the propaganda was like before the war. And how people were co-opted into demagoguery by...


LEMON: Because of religious dogma.

JONES: ... because of religious dogma. And what I'm saying is I don't think that this is something that we should laugh about. I don't think that this is something we should let anybody to get away with. And I don't think you should allow others to glom on to it.

LEMON: I want you -- I asked him if he was a racist in my interview. I want you to take there. Here it is.


LEMON: Here is my question, I asked you last time, I said, and people -- some people were shocked if you were racist. You knew why I was asking you that. Are you racist?

TRUMP: I am the least racist person that you have ever met. I am the least racist person.

LEMON: Are you bigoted in any way do you think?

TRUMP: I don't think so. No, I don't think so. I'm a person...


LEMON: Islamophobic?

TRUMP: No, not at all. I am a person who happens to be very smart and I happen to have street sense and I know things where are going.


LEMON: Do you know he is any of things, Star, you know him.

[22:45:03] JONES: Well, I actually, I mean, I would agree he's extremely smart and he does have a great street sense.

LEMON: Do you think he's racist, bigoted, Islamophobic, xenophobic, any of those? JONES: Well, you know what, I don't have to call you something, I

believe you when you act a certain way. I mean, I've always been taught you take people at their word. When they tell you who they are...


LEMON: I'll show you who they are.

JONES: ... or show who they are, you need to believe them. And the words that come out of Donald's mouth right now are languages that are used by racists, period.

LEMON: You took him on back when he questioned the president's place of birth where...


JONES: Very much so, because this is not very movement.

LEMON: ... you said it is race baiting, right? So, what happened, what happened then?

JONES: I call -- I actually called Donald on the phone when he first started that birthed nonsense against the President of the United States, when he was casting the president as other.

I told him then that I thought that that would put him in a position where people would think he was racist and it was different than the Donald that I have known for all those years.


LEMON: What did he say?

JONES: He said, "Star, you know, I'm not racist." And I said don't act like it. And he was not happy with me, he was very angry with me as a matter of fact. But you and I both know that been matter to me.

LEMON: Have you spoken since? I know you can't.

JONES: we've spoken...

LEMON: You're Teflon, you're like me just...

JONES: We have spoken several times but we haven't spoken since this last run for president. Not at all. Because I'm very clearly a Hillary Clinton supporter. I support issues that matter to American families every day. I don't want to hear what this kind of nonsense is.

LEMON: You are friend with his ex-wife. You vacation with Ivana this past summer, right?

JONES: I see her almost every day.

LEMON: What does -- what does she's saying about any of that? JONES: You know, what I actually I think because of our friendship we

actually did not spend any time talking about the Donald as she still refers to him as. And out of friendship we know how to interact with each other.

You, Donald, I believe in some ways that Donald is enjoying this. I always think back to Russell Crowe in the "Gladiator" after there is carnage al around and he's cut off 9 or 10 legs and some arms and some arms and the lions have eaten people, and there is just death and destruction and he walks out and he says to everybody "Are you not entertained"? And I feel like Donald is saying that to us all the time. Are you not entertained? Am I not providing you fresh meat every single day?

LEMON: Don't go anywhere, Star Jones. There is a Supreme Court justice released that just some black students belong in less prestigious colleges? That's next.


LEMON: A lot of celebrities prefer to stay out of politics. Not this one right here, Star Jones, right?

JONES: No. I'm the president of a women's networking organization. So, that's my job.

LEMON: Talk to me about that. Because a big event Hillary Clinton, an African-American women for Hillary. Why is she your choice would you do?

JONES: Well, actually a group of African-American women we've sort of fashioned ourselves the brown girls coalition all throughout this country, really have focused our attention on electing Hillary the first woman President of the United States.

You know, we say 44 boys is enough. And that's exactly what the slogan is. It's time for us to start to look at a candidate that is going to speak to the issues that matter to American families, specifically women, higher wages and better jobs, equal pay for equal work.

Health care that actually is affordable, prescription drugs that are affordable. Long-term care for the elderly. You're looking at me like, Star, you are giving me a stump speech. But when I tell you...


LEMON: No. I know -- I know what's happening.

JONES: No. But when I tell you that this is important to me...


JONES: ... it's important to other women and it was really important to African-American women to show the power of African-American women. Because, you know, African-American women are who put Barack Obama in the White House. Both times. LEMON: We were just talking about that. So, you can, you said, I'm

looking at you, I'm just looking at you because you are allowed to come on to this show and talk about your political persuasion and what you do whatever. I can't do that. People don't understand that there is difference.

JONES: Well, there is a difference between a contributor and a commentator and sort of, quote "talking head" and somebody who is supposed to be a fair and impartial journalist.

LEMON: Right.

JONES: And the line that you're supposed to walk even though some people who are your colleagues...

LEMON: Right.

JONES: ... across all places they don't walk that line, they pick and choose when they want to say I'm fair and I'm impartial or I'm a beard journalist right here when all they're really doing is pontificating.

LEMON: I got to get it quick because I say that because I let -- when I let people come on and let them talk even when conservatives come on and let them say their peace because that's part of the reason we have them here.

You, just quick -- if you quickly because I want to move on to talk about Antonin Scalia.


LEMON: Do you think Hillary Clinton can do more for black people than Barack Obama because, you know, Michael Eric Dyson wrote a piece saying that?

JONES: Well, it's not so much that she can do more, she's going to do different and because she's going to enhance the things that President Obama has started. She's going to enhance the Affordable Care Act. The best part -- the best example is to make sure that prescription drugs are actually affordable. She is going to increase the amount of pay as it relates to women; equal pay for equal work is the most important issue facing women in America.

LEMON: Supreme Court justice Antonin Scalia, since you are an attorney, I'm a lawyer, you know that TMZ that comes from you, right?

JONES: No. It's not that, it's actually from Saturday Night Live. It was the brilliant Tracy Morgan.

LEMON: Who is playing you.


LEMON: I'm a lawyer. OK. So, during oral arguments yesterday while hearing in front of actual case, here's what he said, "There are those who contend that it does not benefit African-Americans to get them into the University of Texas where they do not do well as opposed to having them go to a less advanced school, a less -- a slower track school where they do well."

JONES: I guess that's a hush fell over Jerusalem when he made such ridiculous statement. You know, just because you have the right to say something don't mean you should always exercise that right. And the justice, I think he really under estimates African-Americans.

He under estimates what? Minority students can and have done, the excellence from which black people come to education and what they get from it.

[22:49:55] And I think for him to be that divisive when he has to actually make decisions in cases that have these issues before him, there's no question. Talent is universal but opportunity is not. And what he spoke to really does say that his statements whereby and uninformed.

LEMON: From Scalia to this, from Scalia to this is the first lady.




LEMON: So, are we going to see maybe Bill Clinton rap if Hillary Clinton becomes president?

JONES: I'm not sure if the former President Clinton has the same spunk as the first lady. I mean, she is just fabulous.

LEMON: That was good.


JONES: I mean, can you be...

LEMON: And that's an important message.

JONES: ... can you be biased enough to say she is pretty fabulous. She knows how to meet children...

LEMON: Oh, I know.

JONES: ... where they are and use positive reinforcement to get them involved in the process.

LEMON: I will say, we're out of time. I will say on a personal level, I know the Obamas from Chicago as a person and she is just a wonderful woman and she is the...

JONES: And smart.

LEMON: I was just going to say she is the smart one in the family.

JONES: And she is extremely smart.

LEMON: Yes. I got to go.

JONES: Mr. Justice Scalia.

LEMON: We are out of time. Thank you, Star. Anderson Cooper starts in just a few minutes. See you tomorrow.