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ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT
Obama: Trump Doesn't Know Much About The World; Poll: Trump Trails Cruz By 10 Points in Wisconsin; Trump on Abortion: "The Laws Are Set"; Sanders: Clinton Owes Our Campaign An Apology; Donald Trump Then and Now. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired April 1, 2016 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[19:00:13] ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: Breaking news. President Obama slamming Donald Trump's call for nukes, charging that the GOP frontrunner doesn't know much about nuclear policy or the world.
Plus, Ted Cruz beating Donald Trump by double digits in Wisconsin polls. If Trump losses, can he still clinch the nomination? We're going to do the math. We'll show you how it was. And Hillary Clinton accusing Bernie Sanders' campaign of lying. Bernie Sanders demanding an apology tonight. Let's go OUTFRONT.
Good evening. I'm Erin Burnett. OUTFRONT tonight, the breaking news. President Obama slamming Donald Trump's call for Japan and South Korea to get nuclear weapons. The President speaking moments ago to world leaders at a nuclear security summit responding to a reporter's question about Trump's position.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PRES. BARACK OBAMA (D), UNITED STATES: The person who made the statements doesn't know much about foreign policy or nuclear policy or the Korean Peninsula or the world generally. People pay attention to American elections. What we do is really important to the rest of the world. And even in those countries that are used to a carnival own politics want sobriety and clarity when it comes to U.S. elections because they understand the President of the United States needs to know what's going on around the world and has to put in place the kinds of policies that lead not only to our security and prosperity, but will have an impact on everybody else's security and prosperity.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Earlier at that summit, the President also issued a dire warning saying that mad men could kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people using nuclear material no bigger than an Apple, singling out ISIS as the most dangerous threat. The most direct time the President has ever done so. One speaker charging ISIS is the first terror group that sophisticated enough and rich enough to get nuclear material and deliberate, quote, "With is" (ph).
Our coverage begins tonight with Michelle Kosinski OUTFRONT and Michelle, in terms of Donald Trump, these perhaps the strongest words yet from President Obama against the Republican frontrunner. MICHELLE KOSINSKI, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: This was bound to
come up given Trump's comments twice in the same week as this nuclear summit was getting underway as the President was going into a bilateral meeting with South Korea. It was actually a tri-letter with Japan as well. Both of those countries were mentioned by Donald Trump. When you heard the comments tonight, I mean, yes, the President didn't hold back. I thought it was interesting that he didn't mention Trump by name as he sometimes does, kind of trying to stay out of the fray, but he doesn't necessarily hold back on what he's saying. And everybody knows exactly who he's talking about.
As for the strength of this slam, keep in mind though back at the Asian conference, Southeast Asian nations in California in February, the President I think won a little bit further. By then, he said that, you know, this isn't about entertainment. It's not about a reality show or pandering. This was serious. And back then, he even said, you know, the President has the nuclear cos. Almost a strange foreshadowing of Donald Trump's later comments. And at that point, he said, you know, he doesn't think Donald Trump will be president. He says he has faith in the American people that that won't happen. He didn't say quite as much tonight, but it was no less serious.
I mean, the White House has gone from almost joking at times or ridiculing some of the things not just Donald Trump, but other Republicans have said. At one point the press secretary even made fun of Donald Trump's hair in a long string of other slams. But here the President is talking about foreign policy, nuclear issues. It's taken a much more serious tone. And you heard him say that he doesn't think Donald Trump -- without mentioning him by name -- knows much about the world generally, Erin.
BURNETT: All right. Michelle Kosinski, thank you very much.
And I want to go now to our chief national correspondent, host of "INSIDE POLITICS," John King, former CIA operative Bob Baer. Editor- in-chief of The Daily Beast John Avlon. And Trump supporter Jeff Lord who worked for President Reagan.
John King, let me start with you. In terms of just saying it without any laugh in his voice, this is certainly the most sober and serious hit we have seen the President take against Donald Trump. With that direct quote, he sure doesn't know much about the world.
JOHN KING, CNN HOST, "INSIDE POLITICS": And Erin, the President follows the political news very closely, so he understands that this a week in where Donald Trump's viability, whether Donald Trump is having a bad week. Whether it is about his abortion flip-flop or whether it's about his campaign manager being charged with assault or whether it's about his comments about use of nuclear weapons, and he's like President Obama understands the moment. He also understand where he was standing at the end of this summit.
So, the serious tone is a deliberate attempt by the President who in the past has sometimes made jokes about Donald Trump or made lie about Donald Trump to essentially say as the current commander-in-chief, I frankly don't think this guy is anywhere near up to the job. Now, how does President Obama's comments -- how they processed by a Republican primary electorate? Donald Trump in an odd way could try to benefit from this in the short term.
[19:05:33] BURNETT: It could try to benefit from this in the short term.
Jeffrey Lord, the President continued to say even countries used to a carnival-like atmosphere want sobriety from the United States. Again, from the current commander-in-chief, a pretty damning reflection on Donald Trump.
JEFFREY LORD, DONALD TRUMP SUPPORTER: Well, I have to say, Erin, the current commander-in-chief, who has brought disaster in Iraq, disaster in Benghazi, disaster in Libya, the Russian reset was a total failure. You know, this is somebody who got elected to office with almost zero foreign policy experience. Donald Trump does have a global business that extends all over the world. He's dealt with foreign leaders. He's been to just about every country out there of some concern. I just think this is ridiculous on its face. And frankly, John King is right. In a Republican primary base, this is going to help Donald Trump.
BURNETT: John Avlon?
JOHN AVLON, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, THE DAILY BEAST: Well, I wouldn't hold out too much hope it is going to help in Wisconsin there, Jeffrey. But look, I think the larger issue is, obviously, the President had a political dis at Donald Trump, but beneath that is the more serious point that world leaders are beginning to look at the possibility of Donald Trump even as a nominee as a sign of destabilization in the United States and a risk of global order. The economist itself name the possibility of Donald Trump as a global threat.
These are not question of whether someone is simply inexperienced in foreign policy or as a theological views outside the norm. This is a question about rank ignorance. And when President Obama raised the point that the current nuclear structure in Asia is rooted in negotiations that occurred after World War II, that American soldiers fought and died for the security to be established, that is, Ashran Era (ph) prosperity, you can't simply wave that away. President Obama was a first term senator, he was elected president but he worked on nonproliferation issues.
This is a damning critique of the United States as a global power potentially. That's what is serious about this.
BURNETT: And John King, what started this in terms of the specifics of nuclear policy was what Donald Trump said to Anderson during our town hall on Tuesday. That's what started this controversy. Let me just play this for everyone one more time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: It's been U.S. policy though for decades to prevent Japan from getting nuclear weapons. South Korea as well. DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Can I be honest with you?
Maybe it's going to have be done to change. Because so many people, we have Pakistan has it. We have China has it. At some point we have to say, you know what? We're better off if Japan protects itself against this maniac in North Korea. We're better off frankly in South Korea is going to start to protect itself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Now, John King, do we get any hearing on that? I mean, you know, there was an article in foreign affairs a few years ago, a very serious scholar arguing why Iran should have a nuclear bomb. There are those who say that. They are of course in the great minority, but will this resonate it all for Donald Trump or will he end up looking silly as President Obama is portraying him tonight?
KING: Well, the President is going to call him silly. The interesting thing Erin is that his Republican rivals both Ted Cruz and John Kasich this week have listed his comments on the nuclear issue you just played right there among a list of other things in saying, they frankly don't think he is qualified to be a commander-in-chief either. So, this is not just coming from Democrats. The fact that it comes from the incumbent president of the United States after a gathering where he was surrounded by so many critical world leaders that adds both politics and policy to the Obama moment. But it comes again in the mix of a lot of people raising these questions about Donald Trump. And Donald Trump has every right as a candidate -- and good for him that he is specific about what he thinks.
KING: A lot of candidates don't give you clear answers. At the same time, Donald Trump, if you look at all of his foreign policies that he's laid out in his interviews at the town halls of the last couple of weeks, he wants to change just about everything. And that's a lot to ask voters to process, especially when some of these things like this nuclear policy, it's not just changing things, it's throwing rules that have existed for half a century out the window.
BURNETT: Right. And you're asking people to do that on front after front after front. You know what else came up today though Bob Baer of course the President of the United States, I mean, is saying again and again and again that he's concerned about terrorists and in particular ISIS getting nuclear materials. And he got pretty specific about the damage that they could do with a nuclear weapon, some sort of even dirty bomb of sorts, which is pretty frightening. We're not used to hearing him say that. Here is part of what he said during the conference today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: The threat of nuclear terrorism persists and continues to involve. But we know that Al Qaeda has long sought nuclear materials. Individuals involved in the attacks in Paris and Brussels videotaped a senior manager who works at a Belgian nuclear facility. There is no doubt that if these mad men ever got their hands on a nuclear bomb or nuclear material, they most certainly would use it to kill as many innocent people as possible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[19:10:06] BURNETT: Bob Baer, you know, the President went on this specifically saying mad men could kill hundreds of thousands of people using nuclear material no bigger than an Apple. Very specific from the President, how real is the risk if he is speaking so specifically?
BOB BAER, FORMER CIA OPERATIVE: Well, Erin, I think this president has downplayed the terrorism threat for the last seven and a half years. So when he comes out and says this, he is basing it on something, on some good intelligence and not just Brussels. I talked to the people who sort of mapped this out, the threat to this country for instance or a European capital. And they're worried about, you know, a dirty bomb, for instance, Caesium, and finding a way to disperse it. It can be dispersed with a car bomb, it can be disperse with a drone. When you look at the half light of Caesium and if you flew a drone over New York City and spread it over the top of that place, you would close it down. I mean, you would have to scrape the buildings, scrape the roads and all the dirt off. It would be a total catastrophe. And for this president again to say that this isn't just a Hollywood threat, I take it very seriously.
BURNETT: Which John Avlon is a pretty significant thing to say. I mean, the President was very specific and he said it multiple times today. And I think Bob Baer is right to point out, this is something he has been loath to say so specifically before, but today that changed.
AVLON: It certainly did. And look, that's a wake-up call. Sometimes the office changes the mad men and men changes the office. And, you know, this is obviously the nightmare scenario that the Bush administration was very serious about. Well, President Obama in terms of messaging has been very focused on, we must not let terrorists win with regards of having us live in fear, this kind of specific warning, potential credible threat based on intelligence as Bob Baer may just said maybe the case, that's a wake-up call for everyone. Terrorism is one day away from being the number one issue not only in America, but the world.
BURNETT: All right. Thanks very much to all of you. Very sobering today.
And OUTFRONT next, Donald Trump trailing Ted Cruz in Wisconsin by double digits with the latest polls today. If Trump loses there, what's his must-win state? What's his path? We're going to map it out exactly for you.
Plus, the bitter Sanders-Clinton battle. Clinton charging Sanders is lying about his campaign contributors. Sanders tonight coming out point blank demanding an apology from her. And vintage Donald Trump 16 years ago, proving some things don't change.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I would put the right people in charge of negotiation. We've been ripped as a current by virtually every country we do business with.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[19:15:47] BURNETT: Tonight, all eyes on Wisconsin. Just four days to go before Tuesday's crucial primary. Donald Trump multiple events in this state this weekend, tripling down try to pull out some sort of win. Polls show he is trailing Ted Cruz though by ten points in the state. Could Wisconsin be the state to stop Trump at the stop Trump people in the state wanted to be?
John King is back with me. And you've been looking at the map. So I guess John, the first question is, how would a loss in Wisconsin effect Trump's effort to get to that magic number which is now the household number, 1,237 delegates.
KING: One thousand two hundred twenty seven. It is a household number. Let's look at the map. Donald Trump right now at 739. Ted Cruz a distant second at 460. So, what would happen in Wisconsin? As you note, the polls show him down ten points. He has got three events there tomorrow. Maybe Donald Trump can turn the tide, maybe he can defy the polls, not only come in first but take all of the delegates in Wisconsin. Right? You have to win statewide and then all the Congressional districts. If he does that, the stop Trump movement will simply be almost out of gas, Erin. But let's assume the polls are correct and Ted Cruz wins in Wisconsin and not only wins, but if the ten-point margin is correct, Ted Cruz would win them all or most of them.
If he gets 42 or high 30s, what is that do to the map? Well, it would do something like this where Cruz would come up closer and Trump would be stuck at 739. Wouldn't stop Donald Trump's momentum completely, but certainly after the last time when Ted Cruz split it would give him a standalone win and it would give the anti-Trump force a lot of confidence heading into what Trump believes just like Hillary Clinton is his fire wall, New York.
BURNETT: So, New York, all right, he thinks it is his firewall. Is he right? And, you know, I guess if you assume that loss in Wisconsin and one where Ted Cruz gets all the delegates, how important does New York become?
KING: Critical or has Donald Trump would say, Erin, huge. Let me give you a scenario in play that went out for you. On the one hand, there's a poll that shows Donald Trump at 50 percent of 51 percent in New York. If Donald Trump gets over in New York, he gets them all. That's 95 delegates. So, the pain of Wisconsin goes away if he can get all 95. And then Donald Trump is out here, somewhere around 834 delegates. Even if he gets shut out in Wisconsin, if he wins them all in New York, Erin, then he needs about 53 percent of the remaining delegates to the get to the magic number of 1237.
Not easy, but not impossible. But what if this happens instead? What if Ted Cruz wins Wisconsin and wins big and then because of that Donald Trump falls below 50 in New York? If that happens, let's say Trump wins but with 40 something percent. And then we'll give John Kasich second and Ted Cruz third. You could flip either one of those two. But if Donald Trump gets 40-something as opposed to all 95, what happens then? Well, he's still in the lead, but at that point, Erin, if he loses and he gets shut out in Wisconsin and then splits the delegates from New York, at this point, he needs 60 percent of the remaining delegates. And most people inside the Trump campaign would tell you that math is not impossible. But if Donald Trump gets shut out here and splits in New York, get ready for an open convention.
BURNETT: Amazing. All right. Thank you very much. And OUTFRONT now, Henry Barbour, he is a member of the RNC Rules Committee. And Jeffrey Lord, former White House political director for President Ronald Reagan, Donald Trump supporter back with me now.
So, I want to start with both of you. Donald Trump actually just gave an interview in the past couple of hours to John Dickerson from CBS that's going to air this weekend. They have released a clip of what he had to say on abortion. We don't have it yet? Okay. Well, hold on, when we get it, I'm going to go to that. But let me start Henry with you, first on this issue, John King was raising when he's talking about the importance of Wisconsin. The importance of New York.
You say you're not a Never Trump guy. You've not been happy with a lot of things he's done, but you're not a Never Trump person. So, you're going to be rational and listen to what he does from here on out. Could you get behind Donald Trump at this point?
HENRY BARBOUR, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, I hope that I can. I hope that if he were to become the nominee, that he would win me over and win over a lot of voters, but he's got to change the way he's talking to people. He's got to be more inviting and inspiring to voters and stop turning people off and stop mocking people and attacking people. And I've seen signs of that in the past, but I haven't seen many signs of it lately.
BURNETT: What do you say to that Jeff? Signs of that in the past but not many signs lately. When someone like Henry, who is not a Never Trump person, he would want to get on board, but he talks about him mocking people, turning people off.
[19:20:02] LORD: Well, I think Donald Trump knows how to unify. I mean, again this is somebody who's built a global business here. He's got good judgment, good temperament, but he's in a fight. And when you're in these political fights as Henry certainly knows, he's been in them, I've been in them, candidates say things. I certainly remember 1980 and George H.W. Bush and voodoo economics and, you know, the talk that Ronald Reagan was too extreme ever to be elected president. These kinds of things, Bob Dole telling George H.W. Bush outlying about my record.
These things get set in primaries and time moves on. I can give you a little heads up here that I just came from the Pennsylvania leadership conference here in Suburban Harrisburg and Senator Cruz just left, so the campaign is ongoing here in Pennsylvania as we speak. There were Trump people there, Trump delegates there, there were people who support Senator Cruz. So, the battle has a ways to play out. BURNETT: What do you say though, I mean, you know, Henry, you know, I
understand Jeff you're saying this happens before. But just look at the last two times when you have asked Republican voters whether the party would unite around their eventual nominees. Sixty five percent of them said, they would unite behind Mitt Romney, 64 percent said, they would united behind John McCain. Only 38 percent say that the party would unite behind Donald Trump. That's pretty damning, Jeff. It would indicate he doesn't have a lot of room for all that talk that you're talking about right now.
LORD: Well, I think he'll get there. I think he'll get there. I mean, you know, I for one certainly will be supporting the Republican nominee, period. But again, this is what these fights are always like. I mean, I've never seen them any other way but this way. And certainly this means Donald Trump has to apply his unification skills, if you will, but I certainly think he's capable of that absolutely.
BURNETT: So, Henry, in Louisiana -- you know the south incredibly well and the rules incredibly well for the RNC. Right? Donald Trump slams the RNC and said, look, I won the state. And yet Ted Cruz and I tied in the number of delegates and now Ted Cruz is somehow picking up Marco Rubio's delegates and some other delegates and he's going to get more than me when I won the state on demographic. It's unfair. Does he have a point?
BARBOUR: I don't think so. I think the delegate selection process what we're just getting into is going to be really decided on organizational skills and turnout of people. And what happened with Rubio voters, look Rubio voters are going to decide individually where they're going to go if they're free to choose. So, that's an opportunity that Donald Trump has to appeal to Rubio voters or a Bush delegate or a Fiorina delegate. So, he has got to do that, but I will say his performance over the last few days is hurting him doing that. And I think Jeff is right in the sense that, look, primaries are tough. People get sideways, and they usually heal when they come back together, but Donald Trump has got to start that now.
BURNETT: All right.
BARBOUR: If he's going to win the nomination, he's got to turn this around today, not tomorrow.
BURNETT: Turn this around. And to that point, he did just gave that interview with John Dickerson over at CBS. And I now have a clip, a back and forth about abortion. Here's one clip of his comments on this issue which has dogged him of course this weekend and hurt him a bit. Here he is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: The laws are set now on abortion and that's the way they're going to remain until they're changed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Now, what do you say to that, Henry, when you hear that? The laws are set, that's the way they're going to be until they're changed. He's not saying he doesn't want to change them, but it doesn't sound like the standard red meat answer from a Republican, which is, oh, and I'm going to change them.
BARBOUR: Well, he's scrambling. He clearly got in a conversation the other day on abortion where he wasn't comfortable with the questions and wasn't quite sure of his answers. And I think now he's trying to get back to some middle ground on that. But he certainly needs to move on beyond abortion and get back to talking about jobs and foreign policy if he wants to pull people together and unite people, get to those issues that unite, not divide.
BURNETT: And Jeff, I guess I'll give you the final word on that. How would you rate that answer on abortion there trying to fix that?
LORD: Yes. Well, I think his answer was fine. I mean, you know, I noticed that Senator Cruz last year, there was a clip of him answering essentially the same question that Donald Trump was asked by Chris Matthews and he basically dodged it and said, well, I'm pro-life and he wouldn't go there. Senator Cruz is a good politician. He knows what to do. Donald Trump is learning not to wade into this kind of thing. I mean, he gets the Supreme Court and the rule of the court and all that sort of thing. I think he should stick with jobs and the economy.
BURNETT: All right. Thank you both very much.
And next, Hillary Clinton charging Bernie Sanders with repeatedly lying about her record. And tonight, Sanders is speaking out, firing back, calling on her directly to apologize. We have a special report if this hits up. And Donald Trump talking about his love affair with the polls in 1999.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: The polls have come out so incredibly well. National Enquirer did a poll that's unbelievable. It says I'd win, that you'd beat everybody.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[19:29:04] BURNETT: New tonight, Bernie Sanders demanding an apology from Hillary Clinton. Moments ago the Vermont Senator accusing Clinton of crossing the line by saying his campaign, is quote, "lying about her accepting money from the fossil fuel industry." This is coming as the two campaigns are getting angrier and angrier at each other ahead of the crucial and neck to neck primary in Wisconsin.
Jason Carroll is OUTFRONT.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Tonight, a growing intensity in the Democratic primary fight as Hillary Clinton tries to shed rival Bernie Sanders. HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I just go crazy when I
hear Senator Sanders and the Tea Party Republicans railing against the export import bank.
CARROLL: Clinton holds a significant lead in the delegate count, but on the heels of a string of Western victories, Sanders is vowing to carry on to the July convention.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If we win here in New York, we are going to make it to the White House.
CARROLL: Sanders is challenging Clinton in her adopted home state of New York, rallying more than 18,000 supporters in the Bronx Thursday night.
[19:30:05] And here in Wisconsin polls show him with a narrow lead over Clinton ahead of Tuesday's primary.
Despite his delegate gap, Sanders insists there's still a path for him to win the nomination.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If you get 60 percent, 70 percent, 80 percent of the vote in a state, you know what, I think superdelegates should vote for us.
CARROLL: Sanders is likely to have the resources to push forward. His campaign saying it raised $44 million in March, eclipsing its $43 million haul from February. The hard-fought race growing more intense by the way. With Clinton being confronted by a climate activist after a New York event Thursday night.
CLIMATE ACTIVIST: Thank you for tackling climate change. Will you act on your words and reject fossil fuel money in the future in your campaign?
HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I do not have, I have money from people who work for fossil fuel companies. I am so sick, I am so sick of the Sanders' campaign lying about that. I'm sick of it!
CARROLL: Sanders rejecting the charge that his campaign is lying about Clinton's donations, saying she received money from lobbyists who represent the fuel industry. And tonight, at a rally in Wisconsin, he called on Clinton to apologize.
SANDERS: Secretary Clinton, you owe our campaign an apology. We were telling the truth.
CARROLL: The Democratic rivals also trading jabs over abortion. Clinton is accusing Sanders of not denouncing Donald Trump forcefully enough for his comments that women who have abortions should be punished if the procedure were to become illegal.
CLINTON: Senator Sanders agreed that Donald Trump's comments were shameful, but then he said they were a distraction from and I quote, a serious discussion about the serious issues facing America.
CARROLL: Sanders is charging Clinton with misrepresenting his record.
SANDERS: What Secretary Clinton is take things out of context. I am 100 percent pro-choice.
CARROLL: And, Erin, a bit of an update on the Clinton donation issue. Clinton's director of communication tonight saying that the Sanders' camp should not expect an apology anytime soon. As for Sanders' part, he took on not only Clinton tonight, but also took on Donald Trump. For the first time, we heard him call Donald Trump a quote, "nut case", when he addressed the crowd here tonight, saying that he is the best one to take him in on a general election -- Erin.
BURNETT: All right. Jason Carroll, thank you.
And OUTFRONT now, David Brock, founder of Correct the Record, a pro- Hillary Clinton super PAC, and Jonathan Tasini, Bernie Sanders supporter who also challenged Clinton in the primary for a Senate seat in New York in 2006.
David, let me start you. We look at the numbers: Clinton has received more than $300,000 in donations from people in the fossil fuels industry directly to her campaign.
DAVID BROCK, CORRECT THE RECORD: Right.
BURNETT: According to Open Secrets. Greenpeace breaks that down to 58 fossil fuel lobbyists donating $104,000 -- of those dollars to her campaign. You heard Bernie Sanders. She owes him an apology for calling him a liar when he said she got these donations. Should she apologize? I mean, she did get donations?
BROCK: No, she got donations but she certainly shouldn't apologize. The reality here is Senator Sanders gotten donations from the same industry.
BURNETT: Yes, and I've got those numbers for Jonathan in a moment.
BROCK: Right. So there's no issue. It's a non-issue.
What happened here is what's behind it, it's the smear or the innuendo, that somehow Secretary Clinton has taken some action or that these donations are corrupt --
BURNETT: Well, she said he was lying, but she did get the donations.
BROCK: What they said was she didn't get any donations from corporations or their PACs.
BURNETT: People who work for them.
BROCK: That's what's wrong. And the good thing about this and Secretary Clinton is drawing attention to this, is the media has looked at this all day long and they're finding that the Sanders' claim was not true and there's absolutely nothing to apologize for in Secretary Clinton's behalf.
BURNETT: Well, if lobbyists and CEOs are giving you money if it is shortchanged for an industry, if that's financial services --
BROCK: It could be any level of the people in the company, though. These are just people who are in this industry. It could be at any level. It could be the janitor giving the money.
BURNETT: Three hundred thousand dollars?
BROCK: Well, no, not the $300,000. That's a total.
BURNETT: Right, but I mean, a lot those
BURNETT: Let's just be honest. It's not fair to say.
BROCK: A lot did, but a lot didn't. She's gotten millions of donations.
BURNETT: So, Jonathan, I hear you laughing, but to the point that David just made, you guys aren't clear either. FactCheck.org, donations of people in the oil and gas industry don't even crack the top 20 industries donating to Clinton. Don't even crack the top 20.
So, why is Sanders making an issue out of it?
JONATHAN TASINI, BERNIE SANDERS SUPPORTER: I'm laughing because actually if you go and look at what you tried to say, which is all the lobbyists that are bundling money for the Clinton campaign and the money that's flowing to Priorities USA, the super PAC, millions of dollars, one out of every $15 that that super PAC that supports Clinton has collected comes from oil, gas, and coal interests.
There's no question that the Clinton campaign is awash in that kind of money. You know what? It is a pattern.
BURNETT: Bernie Sanders has gotten more than $54,000 though from oil and gas.
TASINI: I'm sorry, I can't hear you.
BURNETT: Can you hear me? I was saying Bernie Sanders has gotten $54,000 from people who work in the fossil fuels industry.
[19:35:04] Now, she's gotten more, more than $300,000. But he's still gotten $54,000. So, it's one thing to yell about someone else, but he is getting money himself.
TASINI: But the big difference is, the big difference is what I said before. Those are not big lobbyists who are bundling money and also shoveling money to a super PAC which Bernie doesn't have, but a super PAC that's raising huge amounts of money.
Again, it's a pattern. It's the same thing. It's the reason Hillary Clinton has refused to release the transcripts from her speeches to Goldman Sachs, $225,000 per speech, because it is a pattern. It is the same reason that she supported corporate trade agreements.
She is a moderate corporate supporting person who is been awash in this corporate money her whole entire political career. And the reason she became unhinge about this is because she does not want to answer those questions.
BROCK: Look, even if you count the super PAC dollars that Jonathan is talking about, this is less than 2 percent of the Clinton fundraising. I think the idea that anybody's buying favor --
BURNETT: OK, that's one way of putting it, and you're smart to put it that way. But just to give people the absolute number, it would be more than $3 million. That's a lot of money.
BROCK: It is not insignificant, but I think the idea they're buying favor is nuts, one. Two, you want to talk about -- let's talk about lobbyists. I've been up in Martha's Vineyard at their fancy annual retreat where Senator Sanders is up there helping the Democratic Senate Campaign Committee raising money from lobbyists in the industry.
I would never try to besmirch his integrity for being there unless I had evidence that it was buying his favor. And that's what the Sanders campaign is doing here and that is wrong.
BURNETT: So, let me ask you, Jonathan, because Bernie Sanders has obviously made this a big part of his campaign, right, calling her out for taking this money. In return they get influence mostly from Wall Street. That's been most of the argument. And let me just play a little bit of how he said it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SANDERS: What this campaign is about is telling Wall Street and the billionaire class -- they cannot, they will not have it all.
I do not receive many millions of dollars from Wall Street or the pharmaceutical industry or other powerful wealthy interests in this country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: OK. Jonathan, here's a number. According to the Center for Responsive Politics, Bernie Sanders has gotten at least $351,000 from people who work for the financial services industry. That's more than Hillary Clinton has gotten from people who work in oil and gas.
TASINI: But, Erin, I think you're mixing with apples and oranges with all due respect.
TASINI: If you want to stick to Wall Street, there are count-ins and people who are clerks who support Bernie Sanders. They're listed coming from Wall Street. That's very, very different from Hillary Clinton being paid --
BURNETT: Well, I actually sorted it. I sorted hedge funds, venture capital, commercial banks.
TASINI: Wait, wait, wait --
BURNETT: And I took out accountants and the number was still --
TASINI: Whatever job they have, you have to admit that that's very different from someone being paid $225,000 for one speech. And she actually got -- I can't remember. I think it was a couple million total from banks in general to come and give these speeches. That buys access. That's not the same as the rank and file worker who happens to work in a Wall Street firm who donates to Bernie Sanders' campaign. It's very different.
BURNETT: Fair point, David Brock?
BROCK: No, because all we're talking about here is the money. We're not talking about the record. Let's go back to Wall Street. What happened in 2007 and 2008? Who flagged the mortgage crisis? Who supported credit card reform? Hillary Clinton.
Secretary Sanders was on the House Financial Services Committee said nothing, did nothing.
BURNETT: You're opening up a whole other argument.
BROCK: Climate change, too, and we could talk about the implication here on --
TASINI: I want to talk about credit cards.
BROCK: Hold on, on the fossil fuel thing, the implication here is that she's got a bad record on climate. That's bogus.
BURNETT: Ultimately, she came out against their pipeline. We'll leave it that. I have to pause here, guys, because I do want to talk about credit cards, but I don't have four minutes to do it. So, we'll have you both back.
BROCK: Thanks very much.
BURNETT: And OUTFRONT next, Donald Trump's views over the years, OK? Have they changed or not? People want to say he is winging this whole campaign. Well, if he's winging it, he wouldn't have said the same thing 20 years ago. So did he?
And we're following the breaking news of Donald Trump clarifying his abortion comments again late tonight. Did he raise more questions and answers?
We're going to play the full exchange. We'll be right back.
[19:43:27] BURNETT: The Donald Trump we see on the campaign trail sounds a lot like this Donald Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It got tremendous publicity. It's one of my speeches by the way. It got tremendous publicity and tremendous crowds.
No matter where I go we're having tremendous crowds and we're setting records everywhere.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: The guy is consistent. That is not a man winging a campaign. That was Trump back in the '80s and, of course, today.
Miguel Marquez is OUTFRONT.
TRUMP: I doubt I'll ever be involved in politics beyond what I do right now. But I never had any intention and I won't be running for president.
MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): What a difference 28 years makes.
TRUMP: Ladies and gentlemen, I am officially running for president of the United States, and we are going to make our country great again.
MARQUEZ: His presidential prediction aside, Donald Trump then and now often consistent. We already know everyone loves him.
TRUMP: The people that really like me are the taxi drivers and the workers, et cetera, et cetera.
They love me. China loves me. They all love me. Everybody.
MARQUEZ: On trade, he's barely skipped a protectionist beat.
TRUMP: We let Japan come in and dump everything right into our markets and everything. It's not free trade. If you ever go to Japan right now and try to sell something, forget about it, Oprah. Just forget it. It's almost impossible.
We have trade deficits with China. We have trade deficits with Mexico. It's going to end, folks. It's going to end.
[19:45:01] You can't do that.
MARQUEZ: And when it comes to his self-professed acumen as a negotiator, that remains nonnegotiable.
TRUMP: I actually know quite a few leaders of other countries and they can't believe how easy it is to deal with the United States. We are known as a bunch of saps.
We have the best negotiators in the world but we don't use them. We use political hacks.
We have an imbalance with China of 400 -- almost $400 billion a year. Now, if I can straighten out that one deal, our country is in great shape.
MARQUEZ: His stand on abortion has changed. This week, the sensitive political issue vexing the businessman-turned-politician not known for subtly or sensitivity.
TRUMP: I am very pro-choice. I hate the concept of abortion. I hate it. I hate everything it stands for. I cringe when I listen to people debating the subject, but you still -- I just believe in choice.
I am pro-life. I had an experience with a friend of mine who was frankly -- they were going to abort their child, which they ended up having and their child is like this magnificent person. And it had an impact.
MARQUEZ: Trump says he misspoke when he took the position that if abortion were made illegal, women who get them should be punished. Trump criticized for those words has since backtracked. Rarely have the Don's words come so quickly back to haunt him.
MARQUEZ: Now, he has certainly had a pretty tough week, but what is amazing going through the decades of what he has said is his stance on trade and trade deals. That has always been the same. And to see him talking about it now, he has been incredibly consistent on all those issues. It just the voters and the politics and the economics have finally caught up with Donald Trump it seems.
BURNETT: It's true. I was talking to someone the other day. I've known him for over ten years in various situations. It's always been the same on those issues. It was once Japan, became China, Saudi Arabia, oil field bombing, all of it -- you know, it's been like a broken record for at least the ten years I've known him. Now, he has to get through the much more difficult thing.
And on that front, let's bring in our national political reporter Maeve Reston.
Maeve, on the topic of abortion, Donald Trump just clarified his abortion comments yet again. This one is very, very different from trade, and it is very hard for him to get this right it appears. Let me just play a more extended part of what he just had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: And I just want to say a question was asked to me, and it was asked in a very hypothetical and it was said illegal, illegal. I've been told by some people that was an older line answer and that was an answer that was given on the basis of an older line from years ago on a very conservative basis. But --
INTERVIEWER: Your original answer, you mean?
TRUMP: My original. But I was asked as a hypothetical, hypothetically, hypothetically. The laws are set now on abortion, and that's the way they're going to remain until they're changed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Maeve, this issue continues to give him trouble. It goes to the heart and soul of the right wing of the Republican Party. What do you make of this clarification late tonight?
MAEVE RESTON, CNN NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER: Well, I frankly thought it was really hard to even understand the clarification. I mean, that exchange with Chris Matthews was pretty straightforward when he gave his initial answer this week. And then, of course, he did 180. It shows just how he is sort of continuing to work through these positions on issues like abortion in real time.
And I think this one is such a troubling one for him because not only did he anger the conservatives in his party, but he also potentially alienated many women and moderate voters who he would need to win over for the general election. So, I think Republicans are looking at him in this moment and saying, wait a second, is this guy the strongest guy to be our nominee?
BURNETT: So, Maeve, you have spent a lot of time looking at decades worth of material relating to Trump in his words. You know, Miguel again talking about the business issues, foreign policy issues, consistent there. But this issue on abortion from what you see comes up again and again, doesn't it?
RESTON: Well, it just seems to have been an issue that has bedeviled him for so many years. It's so interesting when we were just getting the clip from that interview earlier, I was remembering in this "Playboy" interview in 1990 that we went through as part of project, that he was asked for his stance on abortion.
The reporter says he frowned, pouted, and asked me to turn the recorder off. He didn't really have an opinion. What the hell was mine? It was a very human moment.
And, of course, that was that reporter's take on Donald Trump in that moment. But it just shows you how he has evolved, as he said, on this issue, but just continues to struggle with it and has for more than two decades.
BURNETT: I suppose in that way, continues to struggle is much like many of the American people but not what people expect in the GOP primary. [19:50:03] Thank you, Maeve.
RESTON: Thank you.
BURNETT: Next, the race for the White House. Nasty, personal, a fight over a rival's wife, a duel, death. No, we're not talking about 2016.
BURNETT: A presidential candidate critics call crude, barbaric and a danger to the republic. Not Donald Trump. Andrew Jackson.
This weekend's episode of "Race to the White House" dives into the angry face off between Jackson and John Quincy Adams all the way back in 1828. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Andrew Jackson was a man with a ferocious temper who was willing to challenge people to duels and actually fight duels in order to win.
NARRATOR: Twenty years before, a local horse breeder had made a fatal mistake of insulting Jackson's wife -- the fatal mistake. The message was clear. Insult Rachel Jackson and Andrew Jackson will shoot you dead.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: OUTFRONT tonight, Steve Inskeep, host of NPR's "Morning Edition", the author of "Jacksonland; President Andrew Jackson and Cherokee Chief John Ross, and a Great American Land Grab."
I mean , Steve, that is incredible right there. A moment in history that very few people probably are aware of. Andrew Jackson killed a guy because he insulted his wife.
Donald Trump, of course, now in this fight with Ted Cruz over their wives. Sure makes that look tame, doesn't it?
STEVE INSKEEP, AUTHOR, "JACKSONLAND": Oh, it totally does. And Donald Trump's tweets seem kind of tame compared to challenging someone to a duel and actually fighting it. And Jackson, by the way, even though he won the duel, killed the other man, he himself was shot and carried that bullet years later into the White House.
BURNETT: I mean, it just is unbelievable. People say we've never seen anything like it. Oh, yes we have, on steroids.
What made you decide to pick Jackson for the book?
INSKEEP: I got a little bit sad about the state of our politics three, four, five years ago, and that drove me back into history.
[19:55:00] A little bit sad is not really right. I was profoundly sad.
And the first thing I discovered was rye whiskey. America got drunk on rye for much of the 19th century, but the whiskey only get you so far. And I ended up looking at the 1830s which is Jackson's era which is when our institutions began to take shape.
And it's really amazing to see some of the similarities in attitudes, in tone in language between then and now.
BURNETT: And, Andrew Jackson, you know, when you talk about him doing what his base wants, if he were president today, would you hear this talk of a big, beautiful wall, that Mexico is going to pay for?
INSKEEP: I don't know that we hear that talk, because let's remember, Andrew Jackson didn't technically campaign. People weren't supposed to seek the presidency, even though he obviously did. What I think Jackson would have done is commit some act. He would have done something and Jackson did dramatic things to reshape the country, like expelling Indians from the eastern United States. He was a prime mover in that many decades long policy.
This was a guy who acted as much as he -- acts as much as he spoke and that's a bit of a difference between the two of them. But their resumes were very, very different and the country was very, very different, demographically among other ways.
BURNETT: All right. Well, Steve Inskeep, thank you very much.
INSKEEP: Glad to be here, Erin.
BURNETT: "RACE FOR THE WHITE HOUSE", this is surely a salacious version. Sunday night at 9:00. Duels and death.
We'll be right back.
BURNETT: Thanks for joining us.
Anderson starts now.