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AT THIS HOUR WITH BERMAN AND MICHAELA
New Yorkers Vote in Primary; Shake-ups in Trump Campaign; San Bernardino Terrorist IPhone Hack Produces New Data. Aired 11-11:30a ET
Aired April 19, 2016 - 11:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[11:00:00] DONALD TRUMP, (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE & CEO, TRUMP ORGANIZATION: No New Yorker can vote for Ted Cruz.
SEN. TED CRUZ, (R-TX) & PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If I'm the nominee, we win the general election.
JOHN KASICH, (R), OHIO GOVERNOR & PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If I'm the only one that can win in the fall, how do you pick somebody else?
HILLARY CLINTON, (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE & FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: I don't think there's been a more important consequential election in quite some time.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS, (I), VERMONT & DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If we get a large voter turnout, we're going to win here in New York.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm John Berman.
KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everyone. I'm Kate Bolduan.
New York, you're on the clock, my friends. Right now, the state is the center of the political universe. New Yorkers are heading to the polls as we speak, and I do not think it is overstating it to say that New Yorkers -- New York's results tonight have never mattered so much.
BERMAN: Big drama, big stakes, a big batch of delegates. Hillary Clinton claims a win could clinch the nomination. Bernie Sanders is hoping that a huge turnout will lead to a dramatic upset.
Donald Trump, he wants a sweep of delegates in his home state. Here you see him voting just a short time ago at a synagogue here in New York City. His own congressional district, hearing from some sources, could be an issue. But a big part of the drama is coming from within his own campaign with reports of a shake-up.
Let's begin with CNN's Jason Carroll on Staten Island where real voters are casting real votes -- Jason?
JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's one good way of putting it, John. We're in the Toad Hill section of Staten Island, very affluent section of Staten Island. A strong number of Trump supporters here. Some of them coming out to vote here, casting their votes at Staten Island Academy.
You talked about some of the drama. What would a primary day be like without last-minute drama? There's been a bit of a shake-up at the Trump campaign. A new political director, new campaign manager, convention manager. Also his national director of field operations resigning yesterday. So you do have a bit of a shake-up there. Going forward the hope is that he's going to have a better ground game going forward, better than what he had in the past. As you know, very upset over those losses in places like Wyoming and Colorado. In terms of his ground game here and the state of New York and polling, way ahead of Ted Cruz, polling way ahead of John Kasich, a big win would give him that momentum going forward to Pennsylvania where he's also polling way ahead of the other two candidates -- John?
BERMAN: All right. Jason Carroll, live in Staten Island.
Let the river run. Obscure film reference.
BOLDUAN: I love your obscure film references that no one gets.
BERMAN: Thanks so much, Jason.
BOLDUAN: Just kidding.
Let's turn to the Democratic side. Our Chris Frates is in Brooklyn, home base of the Clinton campaign, birthplace of Bernie Sanders.
Chris, what are you seeing?
CHRIS FRATES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, John and Kate. We are here in Brooklyn. You can see it's very busy behind me, folks checking in. If you take a little walk with me, you can look and see this doorway here, out the door around the corner. A little bit of a lull right now fore lunchtime, but earlier this morning it was very, very busy. In fact, 1,150 people coming through already today to cast their votes here.
Almost all Democrats. Only about 65 Republicans casting their votes. So a huge battleground for Sanders and Clinton. The battle of Brooklyn happening right now. Hillary Clinton feeling pretty good going into today leading by double digits across the board here. She's hoping that she can take enough delegates home that she makes it almost mathematically impossible for Bernie Sanders to catch her. Of course, Sanders born and bred here in Brooklyn, trying to make sure that he can upset Hillary Clinton and close that delegate gap.
Remember, no winner-take-all here in New York. He needs to win big by big margins to take as many of those delegates as he can and try to close that gap and get some momentum continuing on his side as he continues to challenge Hillary Clinton.
John and Kate, it's just getting started here. Polls close at 9:00. We continue to expect people to keep rolling in all afternoon long.
Back to you guys.
BERMAN: Proportional is a four-letter word for the Sanders campaign.
BOLDUAN: Something like that.
BERMAN: Chris Frates, thanks so much.
Want to go back to the Trump campaign and the internal shake-up under way. The national field director, he quit. The role of the campaign manager, Corey Lewandowski, reportedly being reduced.
Joining us to discuss what's going on with Team Trump, Tana Goertz. She's the Iowa state co-chair for the Trump campaign, a former contestant on Trump's reality show, "The Apprentice".
You know, Tana, you have been with the campaign since the beginning. You've worked closely with Corey Lewandowski, you worked closely with Stuart Jolly, who ran the field operation, as well. What's going on inside?
[11:05:47] TANA GOERTZ, IOWA STATE CO-CHAIRWOMAN FOR TRUMP CAMPAIGN: Well, you know, with Paul Manafort coming aboard, we have the same team but we are more strategic. We are putting more emphasis on Ted Cruz is trying to do with the delegate process and we are making sure that Mr. Trump gets his votes and we get people to turn out and we do not have any shady behavior going on at the convention. So we just have a really, really strong team that we're just -- it's just shifting gears a little bit, but there's been no internal turmoil that I've heard about and I have been with Mr. Trump in the campaign since the day he came down the escalator.
BOLDUAN: So more strategic, Tana, that's what you say. Does that mean Corey Lewandowski's role is shrinking?
GOERTZ: No, not to my knowledge at all. I'm working with Paul and his team on the delegate side, but also Corey is very influential in getting me to the states that I go to, to be a traveling surrogate for Mr. Trump. I've always worked with Corey, have had a great relationship with Corey. And, no, Mr. Trump has not said anything of that nature to me.
BERMAN: So you said something interesting. You said there's going to be more emphasis on what Ted Cruz is doing in terms of gathering delegates. Is that sort of an admission that up until this point Ted Cruz has been doing it better?
GOERTZ: Oh, no, no, no, not gathering delegates, stealing, lying, and bribing people to become delegates. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear.
BERMAN: Stealing, lying, and bribing.
BOLDUAN: That's pretty clear. Where's the bribing? Explain?
GOERTZ: Oh, just, you know, people -- bribing people to be a delegate for him and what he'll promise them, I do not know, because I actually didn't have a recording device to hear the bribes, but I have seen it in action. I'm on the ground. I'm working very closely with Paul, as I said, and his team, and we are leaving no stone unturned because I know for a fact that Mr. Trump cares about every single one of his delegates. And he's learned all these delegates. I'm just so excited because finally New York will have their voice in who they want to be the next President of the United States, and I can't wait for tonight.
BOLDUAN: You say you've seen it in action though. I mean, this will be the first time we've heard someone from the Trump campaign say they've seen this bribing in action. Give us some firsthand knowledge here. What have you seen?
GOERTZ: Well, no, I mean what I've just seen is the corruptness, the rigged system that Mr. Trump talks about. I have seen it in action here in Iowa.
BERMAN: But, Tana, you -- you stated several things. I mean, first of all, you've seen corruptness. I'm curious exactly what corruptness looks like. But you said you've seen the bribes in action, but then you said you don't have specifics about what was being offered. Doesn't a bribe require something specific being offered? What was offered? If you're accusing them of bribing, you should be able to back that up.
GOERTZ: No -- Well, once I talk to Mr. Trump about it and he says that I'm at liberty to say these things, I will be more than happy to come back on your show and explain to you about what I saw and what I know is going on and the shadiness that Ted Cruz and his campaign do. Mr. Trump's campaign is on the up and up. We will not bribe people. We will not steal. We will not be dishonest. And we're going to get to 1,237 so all of this has been for nothing.
BOLDUAN: But you have definitely seen a bribe occur?
GOERTZ: I have seen shady behavior, let's just call it that. And until we get the specifics of what actually transpired in the shady behavior that I've witnessed with my eyes, then I'll come back on your show and tell you more about that. But until I speak to Mr. Trump, I'm not at liberty to discuss this.
BOLDUAN: All right.
GOERTZ: But I just wanted you to know that, you know, we are on the up and up and Mr. Trump does care about every one of his delegates. We will earn them. We will get them correctly. And we will see you all in Cleveland.
BOLDUAN: Absolutely. You absolutely will see us in Cleveland, Tana. We can promise you that. And we would love to have you on when you can -- whenever you are at liberty to talk more about some of the things that you've said that you have seen.
And good luck today as voters head to the polls here in New York.
BOLDUAN: Tana, thanks. Tana Goertz, thanks so much. GOERTZ: Thank you.
Let's discuss this. Andrew Kurtzman is joining us, longtime New York political journalist, currently president of Kurtzman Strategies; Jackie Kucinich is here as well, Washington bureau chief for "The Daily Beast"; Susan del Percio, Republican strategist and former aid to Rudy Giuliani; and CNN political commentator, Errol Louis, anchor for Time/Warner Cable News is here with us as well.
I want to play a game but I think we should start where we just ended with what we just heard from Tana Goertz from the Trump campaign.
Susan, what do you think of that? She says she has seen bribes and corruption with her own eyes in terms of the delegate game.
SUSAN DEL PERCIO, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST & FORMER AIDE TO RUDY GIULIANI: It's amazing, just as Donald Trump is, in fact, making a turn and starting to get back on message, this kind of surrogate is exactly the problem that Donald Trump has and is making claims that really undermine Donald Trump's candidacy and what a lot of people have. She's basically saying she saw bribes but won't substantiate it. You should not be on anyone's air saying you saw something or claiming and then saying I need Donald Trump to say it's permissible? That is absurd, and it's that kind of surrogate that gets a candidate in trouble.
[11:10:07] BERMAN: It's a very specific charge with no specifics to back it up.
DEL PERCIO: It's very specific.
BERMAN: That's why we pressed her on that. R6 and to be clear she had no specifics.
Errol, let's move on and try to look forward a little bit here. Donald Trump will wake up tomorrow feeling --
ERROL LOUIS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Feeling great. Super, huge. Awesome.
BOLDUAN: This is the game part of the day.
LOUIS: Information, he'll be feeling that way even before he goes to bed tonight I suspect because all of the polls show him with, you know, 30-point advantages. What his campaign has claimed is they're going to sweep, they're going to get all 95 delegates that are up for grabs today. They may be able to do it. Without getting into the weeds, if they can get over 50 percent of every Congressional district in every state, they are going to have a really good night and they're going to try to turn the corner after five consecutive losses. This is his chance to reset as Susan was talking about. It doesn't sound like everybody is necessarily doing that as well as they could, but the delegates should not be part of that. I think he's going to have a very good day today.
BOLDUAN: Play the flip side of that game then, Jackie. The Never Trump people, they're going to wake up tomorrow feeling what?
JACKIE KUCINICH, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, THE DAILY BEAST: A little sad, a little sad, forlorn.
BOLDUAN: Good word.
KUCINICH: Yeah, forlorn. But they haven't really had a candidate that's been able to contest Trump in New York. Ted Cruz has already moved on. John Kasich is doing his best but he's just not catching on anywhere but the great state of Ohio. I'm a little biased. But, you know, it really is -- they're looking forward to somewhere like Indiana, frankly, way down, May 3rd --
KUCINICH: Yeah, exactly. May 3rd because that's somewhere Ted Cruz could come roaring back because of the demographics of that state.
BERMAN: Andrew, you're a little biased toward New York.
BERMAN: So at the end now of this Republican race in the state, who is emerging the most bruised? Who got the most beat up by the rough and tumble of New York politics?
ANDREW KURTZMAN, PRESIDENT OF KURTZMAN STRATEGIES & NEW YORK POLITICAL JOURNALIST: In the Republican race, well, I think that Donald Trump has been -- you know, he hasn't campaigned particularly hard. He's had some very big rallies. He speaks to the press on his terms. But, you know, the other guys, they've been out pounding the pavement, right? Rolling matzo and eating pastrami or whatever ridiculous things they're doing but they're acting strategically. Trump is going to have a great night but, you know, I don't think he's going to sweep the delegates. You know, Kasich is appealing to, you know, the Rockefeller Republicans. And this is a state --
BERMAN: Who are where exactly at this point in the Republican primary?
KURTZMAN: Well, it's a shrinking demo, but they're there.
BERMAN: May just be the Rockefeller household at this point.
BOLDUAN: A lot of people in that household though.
KURTZMAN: He's slightly ahead of Cruz in the polls. This is a state that elected George Pataki three times. And not everyone is going to be comfortable with, first of all, with Donald Trump. And second of all, with someone so right wing as Cruz. Some delegates will accumulate to Kasich there, and in terms of Cruz, he's working like, you know, very, very right wing areas where they care more about ideology than about economic issue approximates.
BOLDUAN: So as we're talking about the staff change shake-up, Susan, your former bus, Rudy Giuliani, he said this. He said from the outside this is the type of thing that happens when an insurgent candidacy -- campaign becomes a national campaign. He pointed to -- he used Reagan as an example. This is what happened with Reagan. Do you agree this is what happens?
DEL PERCIO: It absolutely does happen. And in Trump's case it's that the campaign outgrew its leadership team. Frankly, you have to remember, when he put that team together, he was at 18 percent, 20 percent of the vote. And those folks who joined in early who were the real true believers feel like, hey, what's with all these new people coming in? That is very typical on any level of a campaign. All of a sudden now you're coming in when our guy is winning? That creates a lot of internal friction. That's why you start hearing a lot of insider sources saying without names because they're afraid of retribution but that's what you're seeing right now, and it is fairly typical.
BERMAN: Guys, stick around because we have a lot more to discuss, a lot more games to play.
BOLDUAN: More games to come.
We'll be right back with that.
Reminder to all of you, if you need a reminder, we are all New York all the time today on this primary day. CNN will have special coverage as the votes come in today and tonight. Our special coverage begins at 5:00 p.m. Eastern.
BERMAN: There is some other news, important news. Breaking news in the San Bernardino terror investigation. U.S. law enforcement officials tell CNN that hacking the shooter's iPhone has, indeed, produced new data, data that the FBI did not have before.
BOLDUAN: This comes, of course, amid a battle that had been going on between Apple and the FBI over iPhone encryption.
Let's get to Evan Perez. He has all the details.
Evan, this comes from your sources. What are you hear being what new information the FBI has been able to obtain?
[11:15:13] EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, John and Kate, this is really data from the phone that the FBI was not able to get from the iCloud and from other sources that they were doing before they went to Apple to try to get help. If you remember, that led to this legal confrontation between the two sides that was only resolved when the FBI was able to hire some hackers, some private sector hackers, to be able to break into the phone. We don't know a lot about what exactly this new data is, but this is sort of the law enforcement way of rebutting what Apple had long said, which was that there was nothing useful in this phone, that there was -- really this is only about setting a precedent for the FBI to be able to get Apple to build a back door into its devices.
We are told that this -- there were no big revelations. There's no indication of any contacts with an ISIS supporter or perhaps some other conspirator who was part of this plot, but even the lack of such data or the lack of that information really tells them a lot for these investigators because it tells them that perhaps there was perhaps nobody else, just this husband and wife carrying out this attack. They weren't using any kind of encrypted apps to communicate with ISIS overseas or someone in the United States. That's valuable for them to know. It simply helps them at least cross that off their list.
We do know that the data is still being analyzed. The information is still being analyzed. And of course, this fight between Apple and the FBI is not over. They are testifying AT THIS HOUR on the Hill and we know there are many more legal fights coming their way.
BOLDUAN: You can be sure of that. Any new information you can be sure is important information.
BOLDUAN: Evan, thank you so much.
BERMAN: Back here in New York, primary day. The stakes have never been higher I think in a primary contest in this state. Hillary Clinton in a tough, tough battle with Bernie Sanders. She says she's not taking anything for granted in that. A win here could essentially wrap up the nomination.
BOLDUAN: Inside the messy delegate game. Trump slamming a rigged system as Ted Cruz continues to line up supporters right under his nose. What does today's vote mean for that fight?
Our special coverage of the New York primary day continues.
[11:21:10] BERMAN: Decision day in New York. Voters across the state heading to the polls this morning. Hillary Clinton hoping to close in on the nomination with a home state victory. Bernie Sanders, he wants to continue his winning streak and score what would be a major, major upset. He's calling on the tens of thousands of supporters that flooded to his rallies to show up for him at the voting booth.
BOLDUAN: Back with us now, Andrew Kurtzman, Jackie Kucinich, Errol Louis. And joining the conversation is Professor Tim Neftali, historian, and former director of the Nixon Presidential Library; and CNN political commentator, Angela Rye, former executive director of the Congressional Black Caucus.
Let the games tonight.
Angela, I don't know if you were listening to our fun games we were playing.
ANGELA RYE, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I was.
BOLDUAN: We will let you join in the fun now. On the Democratic side, let's discuss Hillary Clinton will be waking up tomorrow feeling --
RYE: Relieved. I'm say relieved. I think that she is looking towards breaking Bernie's eight-state winning streak and hoping that New York will help her to pull it off. So relief in one sense that she will have won New York but I don't think she will win by the margins the latest polls have suggested.
BERMAN: Angela Rye is the only person who gets her own box here. She doesn't like us.
RYE: I miss you guys.
BERMAN: Jackie, the Bernie Sanders question is this, scale of one to 10, if Bernie Sanders loses here in New York, he wakes up feeling how much pressure?
KUCINICH: You know, I think Bernie Sanders continues on. I really do. The pressure is on, sure, but Bernie Sanders has money, and he has a base of support that is still very enthusiastic no matter what happens here in New York. Does he have a map to victory? Not really. But the reason people drop out is because they run out of money and Bernie Sanders is in no danger of doing that.
BOLDUAN: $27. $27.
BOLDUAN: Professor Neftali, depending on which campaign angle you're looking at it from, it will be a different answer, but from your perspective, every day this campaign continues on, what's the impact?
TIMOTHY NEFTALI, PROFESSOR, HISTORIAN & FORMER DIRECTOR, NIXON PRESIDENTIAL LIBRARY: One of the impacts is Americans get excited about elections and they vote and that's a great thing, so that's great.
The other impact is it's an effect on both parties. We've been seeing in the last 20 years that the parties, both Republican a Democratic party, have been getting weaker and we see it right now. You have insurgencies in both parties that are drawing a lot of attention. Bernie Sanders' movement shouldn't have happened, at least from the perspective of the Democratic leaders. They assume Hillary would win and it would be a coronation. I bet you if you ask Bernie Sanders, not now, but in a few years, did you really expect to draw 28,000 people at Prospect Park or 27,000 at any he'd say no. He was a fantastic iconoclast from Vermont. What he tapped into was an unhappiness with the structure of the Democratic Party. Same with Trump. And to some extent, Cruz because Cruz has been running against his own party from the beginning. So what's happening here is the parties are trying to adjust, to figure out how to be relevant, and that's exciting because that's going to shape the convention.
BERMAN: As exciting as it may be historically, Errol, part of the question is, is Bernie Sanders starting to draw blood, create wounds that will not heal for Hillary Clinton if she ends up with the nomination? There's this campaign finance issue today, a letter from the Bernie Sanders campaign to the DNC talking about the Hillary Victory Fund, which is a joint operation. The DNC set this up so Hillary Clinton or any candidate could raise money along with the party in conjunction, get large donations for the party. What the Sanders campaign is accusing is they're using this device in funny ways to benefit the Clinton campaign specifically, and there's some legal arguments to be made here.
[11:25:01] LOUIS: You look at the numbers -- and I have read some articles and looked at some of the numbers. Yes, the money does go to some of the state organizations. But then in some cases on the same day, a lot of that money goes right back to the Clinton campaign. So what the Sanders' campaign is suggesting that what they're really just trying to do is avoid the cap on contributions. For the joint committee, you can make big, big contributions. They go to the state and they magically find their way back to the campaign and they say that's dirty pool, that's not supposed to work that way. They're not alleging that anything illegal happened, but it gets into the Sanders' narrative about how the campaign finance system has to be changed.
I would also, though, add that, if you think back to 1980, one of the most devastating ads that Ronald Reagan had when he defeated Jimmy Carter was from the primary season and there's Ted Kennedy, the liberal lion, respected in the Democratic party, denouncing Carter on the stump, one charge after another, and they just showed that at the end, and at the end, a little picture of Reagan saying, hey, you know what to do. Some of what Bernie Sanders can, in fact, hurt Hillary Clinton if she makes it to the general election.
BERMAN: You just impressed the professor right there. Well done.
BOLDUAN: You've got an eyebrow raise and a head not from Naftali.
Andrew, what do you think? Do you think a late hit, if you will, Bernie Sanders, they clearly think this is an important thing to put out there. Clinton thinks this is a late hit and should, you know, get a yellow card. Do you think it has an impact on the general?
KURTZMAN: Not that much of an impact because I think, first of all, a lot of things would come out in a general anyway --
BOLDUAN: That will be bigger.
KURTZMAN: He's probably testing her mettle and in the long run it will make her stronger and prepare her for those attacks, but, I can't fathom how this dynamic kind of occurred where she's been on defense the entire primary. I mean, does anyone even remember what the campaign theme of her campaign is anymore? Middle class? It's all about her fundraising, Goldman Sachs, the speeches. It's a testament to her as a candidate and her campaign that she's still ahead even though she's been on defense the entire time.
BERMAN: Angela, last word from you. Does what happened in New York tomorrow -- today I should say, does it stay in New York. Is there a way what happens here continues on to next week where you have states that border New York, you have pennsylvania voting, you have Maryland which doesn't border but it's close by voting, Delaware as well. Will this have a lingering effect and maybe create momentum for whoever wins here?
RYE: I definitely think it will, but I also think to this point about this issue now that Bernie Sanders is raising I think this also has the impact of following Hillary Clinton through the general. You cannot question a candidate in your party's trustworthiness. He just happens to be running in this primary and expect for it to end here. This is going to a crucial issue that's impacted her in every poll that we've seen so far, and I think Andrew is right it does say a whole lot about her resilience that she's still standing and still the front-runner.
BOLDUAN: Guys, thanks so much for joining us, Andrew, Jackie, Errol, Professor, Angela. Did I get everybody? I'm not sure, but thank you regardless.
Coming up for us, Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton, as we're talking about it right here, engaging in fierce attacks in today's big primary. Top officials from both of the campaigns will be joining us to duke it out.
BERMAN: Plus, while voters in New York hit the polls, Ted Cruz, he's in Pennsylvania today. So what's he going to do? What's his message? Can he line up delegates there? We're going to speak to a top Cruz supporter. Actually, the brain behind the Ted Cruz delegate operation will come give us his secrets. That's coming up.