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Trump on the Defensive; How Rick is Trump; President's Warning to Voters; Ethical Question After Child Jumps In With Gorilla; The Eighties Show; Brazil's Economic And Political Unrest. Aired 11p-12a ET
Aired June 1, 2016 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[23:00:47] DON LEMON, CNN HOST: The battle for California.
And there you see right there, Bernie Sanders about to speak to supporters. Those are live pictures. We're going to keep an eye on that for you. This is CNN TONIGHT, I am Don Lemon.
Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders battling for the heart and soul of the Democratic Party with the California primary just days away, depending on Donald Trump's battles critics who call Trump University a scandal.
Plus, a mother desperate to save her child. Three-year-old face to face with a 450-pound gorilla.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MOTHER: Be calm. He's dragging my son. I can't watch this. I can't. I can't watch.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: I'm going to ask animal expert Jeff Corwin if anything could have prevented this tragedy.
Let's begin, though, with Donald Trump on the defensive on Trump University.
CNN's senior political reporter Manu Raju has that.
MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER (voice-over): Tonight, Donald Trump pushing back at critics of Trump University, releasing positive testimonials from people his campaign says attended the program. And who call his for-profit college a resounding success.
But as he battles critics who contend the school took advantage of students, Trump is still reminded about this simple fact, the Republican Party is not fully behind him yet.
A long shot third party candidate, Iraq war veteran and conservative writer, David French is being pushed by G.O.P. pundit Bill Kristol.
And House Speaker Paul Ryan remains a key hold out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What's taking you so long?
PAUL RYAN, SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: Well, first of all, principle. Principles are what matter the most for conservatives like myself and the policies that come from those principles. That's not something you just turn a dime on.
RAJU: This despite Trump's own improving poll numbers. A new Quinnipiac poll finds Trump down by just four points to Clinton nationally. And 86 percent of G.O.P. voters would back Trump over Clinton, with more than seven in ten Republicans holding the favorable view of him.
Ultimately, the decisions between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton at this point, so you know, holding out hope for this other Republican to emerge to be the next president at this point, it's just not going to happen.
RAJU: Controversy is bound to follow Trump overseas later this month, when he attends the opening of one of his Scottish golf courses in his first trip abroad as a presumptive G.O.P. nominee.
It will come a date after the UK votes on whether to stay as part of the European Union. And he could receive a rocky reception from the British parliament which threatened to ban him after he proposed his own temporary ban on Muslims entering the U.S.
DAVID CAMERON, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: I think his remarks are divisive, stupid and wrong. And I think if he came to visit our country, I think it would unite us all against him.
RAJU: Back home, Trump is still attacking his favorite punching bag, the media, facing criticism that he need big donations to veterans groups only after reporters began to inquire. Today, Trump fired back tweeting so I raised/gave $5.6 million for the veterans and the media makes me look bad. They do anything to belittle, totally biased.
(on-camera): Now Donald Trump has also criticized the media for the focus on his refusal to release his tax return until an IRS audit is complete.
But, today, Democrats actually got some ammunition on that front. Senator Majority Leader Mitch McConnell renewed his comments saying it would be a good idea for Trump to release his tax returns as has been customary to do so.
Manu Raju, CNN, Washington.
LEMON: Manu, thank you very much for that.
Here to discuss all of this: Bob Cusack, the editor-in-chief of "The Hill," CNN political contributor Van Jones and Mark Preston, CNN politics executive editor.
I'm going to start with you. He's fighting back against these allegations about his bet, you know, about not having the donations on time.
Also these allegations for Trump University.
Is it fair that it's a fraud? Is it fair to say, this has been a tough or bad week for Donald Trump?
MARK PRESTON, CNN POLITICS EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR: Some people may say it is. I may just characterize it as just, it's a Donald trump week, right, where he is just surrounded by controversy. There's an incredible amount of white noise.
Will it hurt him right now in the near term in his candidacy? Absolutely not.
LEMON: Yes, but don't you think, though, controversy kind of fuels him? Is it -- don't you think his campaign is sort of built on a bit of controversy?
PRESTON: It totally is. You know, we talked about this last hour. Here's the problem, though, is that when you're playing with volatile substance such as controversy, while it has gotten to him where it is now, right, this fuel has gotten his candidacy to where it is now, it is very dangerous. And if he continues to play with it, it could be very harmful to him in the general election.
LEMON: When you're considering donations and also fraud charges for Trump University. That's, of course, is another call.
PRESTON: Or in many others that might pile up.
LEMON: Man, as we just heard in Manu's story or on his piece, Trump is heading to the U.K. later this month, in his first trip abroad as a G.O.P. nominee for the reopening of his golf course in Scotland. It is a day after the U.K. votes on whether they're going to exit the European Union.
Politico frames this where it says, "A presidential candidate is using his position for personal financial gain at potentially great cost in U.S. policy, foreign policy."
What do you think about this idea that he maybe using his position as the nominee for private gain?
VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, he does a lot of unseemly things. Everybody remembers that one time when he won and then he comes out, you've got Trump steaks and all kinds of stuff out there. You know like all of a sudden his victory speech is an infomercial for this. And then he's always in his hotel and he's coming down the escalator. All that stuff is just unseemly. And now he's taking that same kind of, you know, classless act globally. I think it's in poor form of whether it hurts him with the electorate, I don't know.
I do think, though, as he starts stacking some of these bricks up, no one brick is going to take him down. But I think the idea that he's a tough guy who's not on your side, he's not your protector, he's your predator. He's a fraudster.
If that begins to build up a little bit with some of these independent voters, plus, you know, some of this, you know, globe trotting stuff, well, you can start deflating him. But no one thing is going to take him out.
LEMON: All right, Bob, let's talk about that a little more. Let's go deeper here.
There's also this "USA Today" found that Trump and his businesses have been involved in at least 3,500 legal actions in the last three decades and 70 new cases have popped up just, you know, since him announcing his candidacy.
The Trump camp says this is typical for a company the size of Trumps. But, I mean, it's still unprecedented here for our presidential candidate.
Are all these potential conflicts of interest something voters are going to have to consider, or are they -- will they consider them or they'll just going to vote because they like the man?
BOB CUSACK, THE HILL: Well, I think they're going to have to consider them because Democrats are going to use anything they can, and I think Democrats recently have just been throwing anything that will stick to the wall because Donald Trump in the primary season has been Teflon.
His supporters love him. And he knows that. And I do think though he has to shift to more of a general election. I think these lawsuits could be an issue. I think Trump University is not going to go away any time soon, especially when you have former employees speaking out.
But at the same time, Hillary Clinton has her own issues. The FBI probe, we still don't know what's going to be yielded from that. So the negatives on both sides, and that's why we're seeing the Gary Johnsons and the David Frenches. This is going to be a wild ride.
If you look at it right now, though, with Trump's numbers which are poor among Hispanics and women, he still write in the ball game with Hillary Clinton. And that's what's getting Democrats a little nervous.
LEMON: Mark -- Mark -- go ahead, Van, quickly.
JONES: Well, you know, a lot of those lawsuits are going to prove to be frivolous. You know, rich people do attract lawsuits.
What the problem is if you can start finding a through line and a theme around being a fraudster, that's going to hurt him. The rest of it is just going to be noise and people are going to forgive a lot of frivolous stuff.
LEMON: Yes. When you have big company like that, people get sued all the time, but 3,500 seems like a lot.
Listen, legal actions at least.
Mark Cuban was on WABC's "Bernie and Sid Show." And he's raising some doubts as he has been about Trump's wealth.
Let's listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK CUBAN, BUSINESSMAN: He appears to have done well putting his name, you know, through licensing arrangement on hotels and buildings, and he's good at that.
Now whether or not that's made him a billionaire, I don't know. You know, he's not transparent enough for us to really know.
So when you're putting your name on steaks and you're putting your name on water, you're putting your name on playing cards, you're putting your name on all this nonsense, right? You're not going to make big bucks, no matter what, right? It's not like, you know, Trump steaks were going to make him $100 million. It's not like they're going to make $5 million. So, you know, I asked, and I asked him, I'm like what the hell are you doing? Are you that desperate for money?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, Mark, I have a friend who puts his name on everything, right? He's a master at branding. And he goes I don't own any of it. I don't own any of the equipment. I just put my name on it.
So that has been -- look, it's a very smart move. Its been a key to Donald Trump's candidacy. But do you think that he's undoubtedly, that he is not as rich as he -- what if he's not as rich as he says he is.
Do you think Cuban has a point?
PRESTON: Well, first of all, isn't it great when you see two very wealthy fighting over --
LEMON: I'm richer than you.
PRESTON: I'm richer than you or --
LEMON: Champagne, we call those champagne problems.
PRESTON: Right. It's not even the one percent.
You know, here's the issue with Trump is. And we don't know how much he's worth. He says he's worth more than $$10 billion right now. Who knows? I mean, who knows what he is.
We haven't seen his tax returns. We don't really know what his full wealth is. So, like, we'll see what happens, you know, if we ever do see his tax returns.
A lot of people will say that that isn't going to declare what his wealth is anyway. But at least it would give us some insight into how he is managing his money up to this point.
[23:10:00] But here's the thing with Donald Trump, to your point. He does put his name on everything. It's his persona. It's been his persona all the way back to the time which a lot of you probably don't remember. He had an airline. He had a discount airline.
PRESTON: Before the steaks.
LEMON: He did. And that's no longer here. The steaks are no longer here. But he also had vodka, right?
PRESTON: Yes. He has wine.
PRESTON: It's one of the nicest wineries on the east coast.
LEMON: Have you ridden along the west side highway lately? Everything is Trump Palace, Trump this, Trump that, Trump. It is --
PRESTON: Walk outside the store, Trump, Trump, Trump.
LEMON: The view is from my office. He's everywhere.
So, Van, when these questions about Trump popped up, wouldn't these all be solved if he, as Mark just alluded to, would just release his tax returns, which by the way, I, you know, I don't think he's going to do it. He said he is. I don't think he's going to do it, though.
JONES: Well, look, I do think this is something that's worrying.
Look, a lot of the stuff, it's hard to know if it matters. I do think that the American people have an expectation in the past 40 years that you would have some insight. It's very dangerous.
Imagine a president of the United States, and you really don't know exactly where he's invested.
Remember back there in the George W. Bush days. He's concern about Halliburton, because Cheney had a relationship with Halliburton and Halliburton made money during the war. It reduces confidence in government when you think that the president's out there, you know, profiting off the office.
If you don't have full transparency, it makes it harder to govern. It adds cynicism. He could solve it in one stroke. I wish he would.
LEMON: Bob, what do you think of that?
CUSACK: I don't think this issue is going away. I think Trump -- I mean, Don, you don't think he's going to release them. I think the chances are less than 50/50.
I think that Trump will say, well, listen, I'll release them when Hillary Clinton releases the transcripts of her Wall Street speeches.
So, but overall, Mitch McConnell, the majority leader, understand it and says he should release them. I mean, that applies some pressure.
I mean, overall -- and I think it would be revealing to see the tax returns. It has been -- everyone has done it since 1976, who he's given charity donations to. But I just don't think you're going to see him anytime soon.
LEMON: What if he's not so great at paying taxes, and that's what the taxes will reveal?
PRESTON: What if he's not so rich? More than $10 billion.
You know, the funny thing about how he talks about how wealthy he is, I find that to be not a very good political play because he says, you know, I'm not worth between $8 and $10 billion. Now I'm worth more than 10.
If you are a deep-pocketed Republican donor, why would you want to cut him a check?
But, Bob, let's talk about donors. Because there are a lot of donors now, we hear are sort of standing or sitting on the sideline because they don't necessarily want to be involved with the Trump candidacy.
Where is that? Where do we stand with that now?
CUSACK: Well, the donors are all over the map. Indications are Sheldon Adelson is in the Trump camp now. He set out the primary. I think some donors are just like, I mean, some Republicans in Washington like Mitch McConnell are behind Trump.
Paul Ryan is not there yet. I think he'll eventually get there. But I do think that's a good point by Mark is that when you're saying you're so rich.
I mean, basically, most Americans look at Donald Trump, and they say, this is a rich guy. It doesn't matter whether he's over $10 billion or he's got 5 billion or 1 billion. That is rich to everybody almost in America.
And I think that's, in a lot of ways it's immature. He's a successful businessman, period.
LEMON: It's only 10 billion -- 10 billionaire -- however you want to do it. They only have $1 billion and watch them cry.
I mean, come on, Bob.
At the end of the day, though, when you run for the presidency, Van Jones, all of this scrutiny and once passed, especially when you've never held an office before, when you have, you know, when you're, you know, based on detriment has been that I have more money than you and I can run a great business, this is par for the course. You're going to be scrutinized.
You should release your tax return. You should show people how rich you are and how well you're doing in business and how you're doing it.
JONES: Absolutely. Also, don't forget, people, I give money not because they think the candidate needs it, it's that they think they need the access. So you will have people writing checks but for all the wrong reasons.
And so I think that's something we've got to track and watch. Another thing is that this idea of him being a successful CEO is so key to his persona and to his argument.
Now we can make the counterargument which is that when you're the president of the states, you're not like a CEO. You can't fire the Supreme Court. You can't fire Congress. You can't reorganize the Senate. You can't do certain things. And we have a constitution.
So this argument that I am a CEO, therefore, I can come in and fix everything is probably misplaced. But it's completely wiped out if it turns out that he's been lying and puffing his entire business history.
The idea that he's being audited, the idea that he was audited in the past, everything that's -- all of his completed audits in the past could be put forward. An active audit, maybe not. But he's not even putting forward completed audits -- completed and audited returns from the past. That makes no sense.
LEMON: But in all fairness to your earlier point. No one knows what it's like to sit behind that desk until you actually sit behind that desk.
All right. Stay with me, everyone. When we come right back, the campaigner-in-chief waiting into the race tonight. Wait until you hear what he has to say about Donald Trump.
[23:18:42] LEMON: President Obama taking shots at Donald Trump's campaign tonight.
Back with me, Bob Cusack, Van Jones, and Mark Preston.
Before we get to the president, some new reporting here from CNN's political team. It says that Hillary Clinton is going to give a speech tomorrow. Major foreign policy speech in San Diego on Thursday casting the presumptive Republican nominee as unqualified and unfit for the job.
Mark Preston, she's going after him.
PRESTON: She's going to go after him and she's also going to stand by her record as the secretary of state. Something that Republicans have been very critical of, specifically when focusing on Benghazi and what happened there, and as well as in Libya.
But she is now trying to create a definition of her experience when it comes to foreign policy and his statements that she finds offensive. And, quite frankly, you know, many people find offensive. We know that Donald Trump has angered the likes of David Cameron and the London mayor as well. So she's going to try to start to widen that gap.
LEMON: And she's going to visit there in a month. She's actually going to --
PRESTON: He's going to be over there on the 24th right when Brexit has its vote.
LEMON: OK. So she's going in, the president going in as well.
President Barack Obama, Bob, held a town hall tonight on PBS. Sources telling CNN, he is, quote, "Ready to explode into the 2016 campaign trail."
Here he is tonight on Donald Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[23:20:00] BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: A lot of times it's easy for somebody to come up and say, you know what, if we deport all the immigrants and build a wall, or if we cut off trade with China, or if we do X or Y or Z, that there is some simple answer and suddenly everything's going to feel secure.
GWEN IFILL, PBS HOST: Why don't you mention Donald Trump by name?
OBAMA: You know, he seems to do a good job mentioning his own name. So I figure, you know, I'll let him do his advertising for him.
IFILL: Do you consider at all that any of the support for him is backlash against you, personally?
OBAMA: Well, here's one thing I would say. And I just spoke about this at a local high school, I think trump is a more colorful character than some of the other Republican elected officials.
But a lot of the story that he's telling is entirely consistent with what folks have been saying about me or the general story they've been telling about the economy for the last seven and a half, the last ten, the last 20, the last 30 years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Besides him, Bob, looking more relaxed and a lot younger because he sees the finish line. He's like, whew, this is almost over. I'm so ready to get out of here.
We're now starting to get a hint of what the president will look like on 2016 trail. Clearly, he is ready to defend his legacy, right?
CUSACK: Yes. I mean, Don, if you think about it, if Donald Trump wins and succeeds Barack Obama, that is extremely humiliating to Barack Obama. Not only just from, I mean, the policy standpoint, you think about Obamacare, you think about climate change, you think of everything he's done, Trump is going to try to undo.
So I think this is personal for Barack Obama. You know, I don't think he and Hillary Clinton are especially tight. But he is clearly in her corner. He, you know, I think he voted for her absentee in Illinois. He won't say which way he voted. But he knows that Hillary Clinton is a better bet against Donald Trump in the general election even though the Sanders supporters say, well, head to head. Sanders would do better.
But, overall, I think Barack Obama is going to be very, very busy on the campaign trail. And remember, he's got the African-American vote out for Hillary Clinton just like he did in 2008 and 2012. That was key.
That's actually underrated compared to the Hispanic vote, which I think is very important, but the African-American vote is extremely important. And Barack Obama is going to do everything he can to make sure Hillary Clinton succeeds him.
LEMON: Yes. Every demographic is important in this election.
Van, the president also got a question on why he decided to focus on the transgender bathroom debate, when there are so many other pressing issues.
Listen to this, part of the answer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: Somehow people think I made it an issue. I didn't make it an issue. There are a lot of things that are more pressing. You're absolutely right.
What happened and what continues to happen is, you have transgender kids in schools. And they get bullied. And they get ostracized. I just want to emphasize to you, though, it's not like I woke up one day and I said, man, you know what, we really need to do. Let's start working on high school bathrooms.
You know, I was thinking about ISIL. And I was thinking about, you know, the economy and I'm thinking about jobs. But one of the things that as president you learn is that you don't choose the issues all the time. Issues come to you. And then you have to make your best judgment about what you think is right.
And I've expressed what I think is the best judgment that is consistent with our traditions and our lost.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So Van, two-part question for you on this. I want your take on that, of course. But also do you think President Trump is prepared to handle issues that he thought he would never have to, really having everything in the book thrown at him, especially considering yesterday what happened with the press?
JONES: Well, I don't think so with Donald Trump. Let me say something about President Obama. I am very, very proud that he -- when the issue came to him and did come to him because people were trying to play politics with it, there hasn't been any no rush of people going into bathrooms hurting anybody, but they decide to make politics out of it. And the president stepped up and he has this radical view. And I won't admit, the president has a radical view. It's called liberty and justice for all, for everybody. Treat everybody fairly.
And he could have ducked it or he could have been craving about. He was courageous about it. I'm proud of him on that.
With regards to Mr. Trump, he hasn't even been able to feel well with issues that are well-known and well-developed. He didn't know what Brexit even was. It's the biggest issue in the world economy right now.
Have you ever heard of the term? There are issues that are well- developed that he does not have the ability to respond to appropriately. I worry about the erratic behavior on existing issues let alone new issues.
LEMON: Mark, the president also issued this morning to voters earlier today. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[19:25:00] OBAMA: And the one thing I can promise is if we turn against each other, based on the visions of race, or religion, if we, if we fall for, you know, a bunch of okie dokie, just because, you know, you know, it sounds funny or the tweets are provocative, then we're not going to build on the progress that we've started.
If we get cynical and just vote our fears, or if we don't vote at all, we won't build on the progress that we started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: I wonder who he's talking about there, Mark. And, you know, what the old okie dokie is. It's basically saying don't be bamboozle, people. I mean, do you think that's going to help Hillary Clinton?
PRESTON: Right. Well, a couple things. One is you have to wonder was he -- was he at a loss for words there making sure that he wanted to attack Donald Trump, was very careful in doing so. You know, he stuttered a little bit there. He took extra breaths.
LEMON: I think the stutter was for somebody. Well, because it was like church, right? It was a call and repeat, but maybe so, maybe you're right. But, you know, when he said the old okie dokie, I'm like, oh, here it comes.
PRESTON: Here it comes.
LEMON: Yes, here it comes.
PRESTON: I mean, look, Barack Obama is going to be a very effective surrogate on behalf of Hillary Clinton. Not only will he help her raise money, but he is going to point out that for eight years, he was the commander-in-chief and that he was the one that had to deal with world leaders, and he will try to diminish Donald Trump at every turn he can dealing on major issues facing this country.
LEMON: And he will say, and Hillary Clinton was there for part of that with me, right?
So Bob, Hillary Clinton continues to hit Donald Trump on this Trump University thing, shooting off tweets and, we'll read some of this. It says, "The Trump University con says a lot about Trump. If you can't trust him with your personal finances, how can you trust him with our country?"
And then there's another one that says "The gist, Trump's for-profit university deceived and exploited students to take their money, and he has the gal to call the media sleazy?"
Are we seeing the Clinton camp take a page from the 2012 Obama campaign, trying to paint Trump as an executive, you know, and in it for himself? Someone who is in it for himself?
CUSACK: Without a doubt. I mean, that's what Hillary Clinton is doing. She's looking to define Donald Trump in a way that his Republican rivals could not, at least not successfully. They tried everything. Nothing worked. So I think she's trying a lot of things against Donald Trump. She's got a long time, I mean, five months in politics, is an attorney.
But the interest things with Obama and Hillary Clinton is that Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders, they're not saying, hey, let's keep going. Let's do the status quo. President Obama as he leaves office, even making the case, listen, the unemployment rate went down from 10 percent to 5 percent, but Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders have a very different message. It's not let's continue these policies. It's, maybe build upon him a little bit, but let's, we need to help people. People are hurting.
So those two issues are going to be very interesting I think to play out. And the big question, too, is are you better off than you were eight years ago? That's going to be a big question.
Republicans are going to say, no, and Democrats are going to say, yes. But there's going to be a little bit, it's a little bit tension between the White House and the Democratic candidates on the campaign trail.
LEMON: Thank you, gentleman. Appreciate it.
LEMON: That's it. Sorry, Van.
When we come right back, the heated debate over the killing of a gorilla at the Cincinnati Zoo after a child slipped into the animal's enclosure.
Are zoos still relevant in the 21st century?
It's a serious question. Is it time to consider banning them? We're going to talk about it -- next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: We now have 911 calls from those frantic few minutes after a 3-year-old slipped into the gorilla pit at the Cincinnati Zoo. The whole thing is sparking a very heated debate and zoos and the 21st century. Here to discuss is wildlife expert Jeff Corwin and Attorney Lisa Bloom, legal analyst for avvo.com. I want you to listen to the mother's frantic 911 call. Here it is.
MOTHER OF CHILD WHO FELL AT ZOO: Hi, my son fell into the Cincinnati Zoo at the gorillas. My son fell in with the gorilla. There's a Matt LeBlanc gorilla standing over him - I need someone to contact the zoo please.
DISPATCHER: OK, we already have that started - we do already have help started there, OK? How old is the child?
MOTHER: Be calm, be calm, be calm.
DISPATCHER: Hold old is ...
MOTHER: Be calm. He's dragging my son. I can't watch this. I can't watch.
(END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON: So, Lisa, there's now an online petition calling for criminal
charges against the parents for acting negligently. Over 400,000 signatures so far. After hearing this 911 call, do you think that she should face charges?
BLOOM: I didn't think she should face charges before the 911 call, you know, let she has never had a little child get away for a second, cast the first stone. That's not going to be me. I don't see any basis for criminal charges here at all. You know, the little kid got away, got through the enclosure. I think the zoo is responsible for having an insufficient barrier.
LEMON: Here's another 911 call made by a witness.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WITNESS TO GORILLA ACCIDENT: Bit it had - it slammed it against the wall earlier.
DISPATCHER: OK, can you - is any of the zoo keepers next to you right now?
WITNESS: Oh god, oh god, it's got his pants, he's taking the baby ...
DISPATCHER: OK, ma'am, listen to me.
WITNESS: He's taking the baby into the cave. Oh my god.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So Jeff, when you hear this and you watch this chilling video, at first it looks like Murambe may be protecting him and then he grabs and drags him through the water. As an animal expert, can you help our audience, help us understand what Murambe is doing with the little boy.
JEFF: Don, it's so hard to get in the mind of this gorilla. As we know, these are incredibly complex, highly intelligent, great apes, they're primates just like ourselves. And just like ourselves, they have a great array of emotions they can express from passion to altruism and protection to fear, anger, aggression, predatory-type behaviors when it comes to defending themselves, all of these are in play with an animal like this. Now is an incredibly polarized, stressful, highly energized chaotic situation. There are so many unknowns right here. Is he looking at this child as a human infant? A vulnerable being? Is he looking at it as a ragdoll? Does it escalate? It's really hard to predict.
LEMON: Yes, so at the point where the gorilla appears to become aggressive with the child, did zoo officials, Jeff, have any other option than to kill him?
JEFF: Here's what I can say is the folks that work at the Cincinnati Zoo are some of the top in the industry when it comes to primatology, when it comes to conservation. This exhibit has been operating for 40 years; it's a pioneering program when it comes to gorilla conservation. This zoo has been around for 150 years. It's a historic zoo. They've never had a situation like this.
Now, the AZA, which is the Association for Zoos and Aquariums, have very strict regulations and protocols. Each zoo is required to do a minimum of four drills every year, one for the quarter, in preparation for a calamity just like this. I think, Don, they were at a desperate point - at the point of no return - I believe they felt they were out of options, and the child's life was in tremendous jeopardy.
LEMON: Jeff, everyone is asking about, why didn't they tranquilize him? Why didn't they tranquilize him? How long does that take, and in the process, like, why it's working, right, the animal could have become erratic, is that the problem here?
JEFF: Even in a perfect case scenario when it comes to tranquilizing an animal, as large as this with the sedative, there's still so many unknowns. Most of the time when you do it in a wild-type environment, that creature has no idea you're there. Now here we have this incredibly chaotic situation. We have an animal that weighs at least 450 pounds.
It's incredibly stressed. Adrenaline is surging through everybody, never mind the gorilla itself, by the way, which is doing nothing wrong. I've been there in the wild, not in this case, but I've been there in the wild, I've tranquilized large animals from rhinos to elephants with veteranarians that need to examine these animals. It can easily take upwards to nine minutes, 10, sometimes 15 minutes before the animal is completely sedated and safe to approach. Sometimes it requires two darts. I've actually been in a situation where a rhino - they had to do CPR on the rhino because it was so chaotic.
Now what if that dart had missed the gorilla and hit a child? A dosage designed for six human beings in size into the body of a 4- year-old child? There was so many elements unknown and, of course, it's not instantaneous when that animal gets hit by that dart. It doesn't quickly just go to sleep and become passive. What happens? How does it react to the child there in that stress sort of beasting reaction like moment?
LEMON: I want to read the statement from the parents, Lisa, this is for you, it's the parent's second statement saying, "Some have offered money to the family, which we do not want and will not accept. If anyone wishes to make a gift, we recommend a donation to the Cincinnati Zoo in Murambe's name.
The problem, though, I think, is that these parents are getting so much scrutiny here, that they feel that they have to put out a statement saying, "you know, do this." Everyone knows that children can get away from you. You can't sit there and say, "Oh my child wouldn't be in there." It's just impossible to say because kids get away all the time. I see parents all the time saying, "Where is such- and-such, we've lost our kid," or whatever. Things happen. Why do you think these parents are being scrutinized so much? [23:35:02] BLOOM: Well, let me just say, my 30 years of practicing law and talking about high profile cases, that is one of the classiest, most gracious statements I have ever seen, and kudos to the family for that. Why people are piling on the family is, I guess, they're very upset about the shooting of the gorilla, and I think that's appropriate because that is a horrible tragedy. And they want somebody to blame and so, you know, blaming the mom is sort of our fall back position, but I think it's completely inappropriate here.
Listen, zoos invite in families with little children. Children get a discount. There's all kinds of special days. You know, zoos are really there because of children. We take our children to go see the animals, and zoos have to have a responsibility to keep the children separate from the animals. It's highly foreseeable that a 4-year-old little boy or girl is going to try to find a way to wriggle in and be in with the animals, and so, this is just a terrible situation to begin with.
I don't care that the zoo has had all of these years and nothing like this has ever happened. You can look at this enclosure and see how dangerous it is. I might add - when we're talking about the gorillas' stress, this is an animal held captive. So of course it's stressed out.
LEMON: That's my point. Do you think it's time to get rid of zoos? Listen, wildlife sanctuaries are great because animals can roam, I think, but zoos, is it time for us to re-evaluate zoos? Quickly, Lisa, and then Jeff.
BLOOM: Of course. To take wild animals and then hold them captive in small spaces merely so we humans can go and gawk at them, is inhumane. Yes, zoos sometimes do have good motives, like protecting endangered animals, but they can be held in a much larger space than a sanctuary. No gorilla should be in Cincinnati.
JEFF: Well, I think zoos are incredibly important. Zoos are on the front lines of conservation. Zoos generate upwards to $150 million. Every year they go into the field. There are 700 species around the world that are being saved today because of zoos. Zoos inspire environmental stewardship. They are on the grounds trying to defend ...
LEMON: So they should stay?
JEFF: I think they're incredibly important. I'll tell you this, I believe the only way you can truly save a species is to really have compassion and empathy for it.
JEFF: And it's hard to have compassion and empathy for something that you have no connection to and you don't understand, and I will tell you this, I'm a wildlife biologist today, and my life is dedicated to conservation. It began when my dad, a Boston cop, dropped me off at the local zoo, and I began to learn about animals.
LEMON: Thank you, both.
BLOOM: But it's time to look at nature videos and go on a hike.
LEMON: Be right back.
LEMON: This week's episode of The Eighties tells a story of one of the deadliest chapters of the decade, the fight against AIDS. Joining me now, a man who was a big part of that fight, AIDS activist Clede Jones. Thank you so much for joining us.
CLEVE JONES, AIDS ACTIVIST: Thanks for having me.
LEMON: Let's talk about the 80s, when we were experiencing the worst part of the AIDS crisis. You became a survivor. What does that era mean to you?
JONES: Well, I watched your episode last night, and it brought back a lot of really very, very painful memories. Of course, memories of disease and death, but also of the incredible failure of this country to respond appropriately to the new crisis, and the cruelty that was shown by so many Americans to their neighbors and even family members. That was difficult to recall.
LEMON: You make an appearance in this week's episode of The Eighties. Here's a clip.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This huge quilt that today is being spread out on the Capitol Mall in Washington has 2,000 panels. Every one crafted by the friends and relatives of an AIDS victim. This memorial is the brain child of San Franciscan, Cleve Jones.
JONES: We want to show the president and the congress and the rest of the country, the enormity of this epidemic.
CURRENT DAY JONES: What do you think of when you say the world quilt? I think of my grandma. I saw it as a very middle American, traditional, family values symbol that could tap into all that is good about the American people and create the place to grieve together.
PETER STALEY: To an "act upper," it sounded like this touchy-feel good (INAUDIBLE). But when each of us walked onto to that mall and this unfolding started, it was overwhelming.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: It was exactly what everyone needed, at least some healing. We just saw that you created the very first AIDS memorial quilt in '87. It was for your best friend. Tell me about making that. Well, I still can't sew, so it's fortunate that so many people - tens of thousands of people took up needle and thread to make it happen. The quilt in its final display covered the entire national mall from the steps of the Capitol Building to the Washington Monument and still represented only a small fraction of the total Americans who died, let alone, you know, the global statistics.
So you know, I think it helped, but it is frustrating now - I was a young man then - and now I'm an old man, and this disease still continues, and we still continue to fail in so many ways, and you know, I was happy that you provided me with a copy of the episode that I could see it before I came on, and I think it's good that you're doing this. But I also have to comment that I would have been happier had the piece included more voices from the many women who stood with us during that time, from communities of color who remain disproportionately affected by the disease today.
And the early part of the episode reminded me of the sort of breathless sensationalist approach that so much of the media took which was a significant part in setting us up for the global disaster that we've now witnessed, when this country dismissed the disease as a disease of mostly white gay men, we doomed tens of millions of heterosexuals worldwide.
LEMON: I'm glad you said that and dually noted because it was - you know - there were a lot of people of color who had been affected by HIV and continue to be affected by HIV, disproportionately even now so. And there were women who did help in the fight, so dually noted with that, and thank you for that criticism.
Here's my question, though, as we see young people, and as I was talking to young people (INAUDIBLE). I was out on Fire Island this weekend and people were talking about the "old days," and I was decimated what have you. People don't see HIV AIDS as a death sentence anymore. Is that good or bad, do you think?
JONES: Well, it's good that the death rate is down. I don't think anyone would dispute that, but I'm very concerned about our young people, and we do see that the majority of new infections are among young, gay and bisexual men, especially African American men. This new generation does not seem to have a sense of solidarity that mine experienced. When I talk to young people, they're very, very reluctant to get tested. Once they get tested, they are reluctant to disclose their status to their peers. They're less likely to be actively engaged in making decisions about treatment.
[23:40:90] And what I think is very important for young people to know is that treatment equals prevention, and those of them who are positive, need to find out and need to get on treatment. And those of them who are engaging in behavior that could put them at risk, need to learn about pre-exposure prophylaxis, PrEP is the abbreviation.
JONES: Right now Truvada is the one drug that's been approved for it, soon there will be more. And the science is in and it works, so - but, I do worry about this every day, and I encounter young people every day who are grappling with this, and it would be a mistake to think that the stigma has gone away. It has not and it continues to complicate this issue for us.
LEMON: I have to run, we're out of time. Thank you so much, Cleve Jones. It was a pleasure; thanks for coming on.
JONES: Thank you.
LEMON: You can see The Eighties tomorrow night 9 Eastern.
We'll be right back.
LEMON: The eyes of the world on Brazil this summer for the Olympic games, but look closer, and you see a nation suffering an economic and political earthquake with no end in sight. CNN's Ivan Watson has more.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
IVAN WATSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: When the honor guard arrives to greet foreign diplomats at the presidential palace, so do the protestors, demanding the resignation of the brand new interim president, Michel Temer. Brazil faces a political crisis during a time of great economic pain. A fresh scandal this month forced the top cabinet minister to announce his resignation. The irony, this is one of the politicians who spear-headed the impeachment process against President Dilma Rousseff, forcing her to step down earlier this month for allegedly breaking budgetary laws which she denies.
More than two-thirds of the congress here voted in favor of an impeachment process of the elected Brazilian president, but many of these lawmakers are themselves implicated in the variety of corruption scandals.
Do you think there's a lot of corruption in this room?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't think, I'm sure.
[23:45:59] WATSON: Part of the problem is, it's tough to govern here when there are dozens of political parties represented in the Brazillian congress. There's even a professional clown.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
A comedian who was applauded when he cast his vote to the impeachment of President Rousseff. Polls show she nearly single-digit popularity ratings when she was suspended, but so does the legislature that suspended her.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WATSON: People don't respect you? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. Yes, they don't respect. We don't have too much credibility together with the societies.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WATSON: And it hasn't helped politicians credibility that several ministers in the new interim government also appear to be under investigation for alleged wrongdoing.
The changing of the political guard in this country is still very, very complicated.
The elected President, Dilma Rousseff, is still living over here in the official presidential residence, and she is vowing to fight the impeachment proceedings against her.
Ivan Watson, CNN, Brazilia.
LEMON: We'll be right back.
LEMON: That is it for us tonight. Thanks for watching. See you back tomorrow night. AC360 starts now.