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Supreme Court Blocking President Obama's Executive Action on Immigration; Trump Goes to Scotland to Open Golf Course; Votes Being Counted in the U.K.'s Brexit Referendum; Trump Blasts Hillary Clinton. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired June 23, 2016 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(JOINED IN PROGRESS)
[22:00:00] MIKE ROGERS, FORMER HOUSE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN: It's real life. And all the ups and downs of that is pretty exciting.
ANDERSON COOPER, AC360 SHOW HOST: Well, I look forward to this and also all these episodes. Chairman Rogers, thanks very much. Declassified on Sunday night, 10 o'clock. Only on CNN. That does it for us. CNN Tonight with Don Lemon starts now.
DON LEMON, CNN TONIGHT SHOW HOST: Pay close attention because here is something you probably never thought you'd hear. President Barack Obama and Donald J. Trump agree. Sort of.
This is CNN Tonight. I'm Don Lemon.
In the wake of today's Supreme Court immigration deadlock, which effectively blocks president's -- the president's executive actions, the GOP presumptive nominee says the 4-4 tie, quote, "makes clear what's at stake in November" and President Obama agrees.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA PRESIDENT: And in November, Americans are going to have to make a decision about what we care about and who we are.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: The next president will shape the direction of the highest court in the land for decades, but who would Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump nominate?
Meanwhile, in the middle of campaign turmoil, Trump goes to Scotland to open a golf course. Is the mogul-turned-candidate more interested in the art of the deal than the White House?
Plus, breaking news. Votes being counted in the U.K.'s Brexit referendum. We're going to take you there live throughout the night. We'll check on all of that for you.
But let's begin, why don't we, with CNN's chief political correspondent, that's none other than Dana Bash. Dana, hello. Two big Supreme Court rulings today.
DANA BASH, CNN'S CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes.
LEMON: One on immigration was a crushing defeat for President Obama. Tell us about that.
BASH: The president's executive order would have given about five million undocumented immigrants the ability to come out of the shadows and begin the process of applying to stay in the U.S. legally.
But what happened was a lower court judge issued an injunction to stop the programs from going into effect because the Supreme Court deadlocked today 4-4, it means that the lower court ruling stays in effect.
So, that also means that undocumented immigrants that we're talking about here in this pool will stay in legal limbo rather, until the end of the Obama administration.
But, Don, you mentioned two decisions. There's actually another one that isn't getting as much attention, but could have some significant political implications.
The Supreme Court upheld the affirmative action program at the University of Texas today, which mean it reaffirmed support from making admissions decisions based on race -- and it was a bit of a surprise.
And I think it actually could have an effect and it feed a very real fear factor that we see at rallies, particularly republican rallies, Donald Trump voters, working class voters, whites especially, of course, who feels that the systems and institutions are just rigged against them.
LEMON: Yes. Let's get back to immigration. Because, you know, the candidates -- we're in a political season now. People are running for the White House so the candidates are responding via Twitter.
Here is what Donald Trump said, first he said, S.C., meaning Supreme Court, "has kept us safe from exec amnesty for now. But Hillary has pledged to expand it, taking jobs from Hispanic and African-American workers."
And then Hillary Clinton twitted this, "Today's heartbreaking SCOTUS immigration ruling could tear apart five million families facing deportation, we must do better," and the she signed it "h" that's so you know she wrote it.
So, how big a factor is this going into the campaign.
BASH: So big. I mean, like, Donald Trump we know he rode to victory in the primary using his opposition to illegal immigration to rally his base. It was a signature issue. It still is.
But I think Hillary Clinton may get a political boost here because it could energize angry voters, Hispanic voters, make them more eager to elect democrats, especially, Don, in key swing states with large Hispanic populations, Florida, Nevada, Colorado.
But, you know, it also puts front and center something else, which is the next president is going to have to pick somebody to fill the empty ninth seat on the Supreme Court, assuming the republican-led Senate doesn't relent and have a vote on President Obama's nominee. We don't see that happening any time soon.
LEMON: So, Dana, we sat here until the wee hours covering this yesterday's sit-in on the House floor.
BASH: Yes, we did.
LEMON: It was incredible demonstration. But what did it -- what did democrats prove by this? What was the upside for them?
BASH: They got us all talking about it into the wee hours of the morning and into the day -- midday today, talking about the issue itself, talking about from their perspective the process that they believe it is unfair for republicans in the House to not give them a vote.
You know, the unfortunate thing for them -- and we talked about this last night, is that they sent out a fund-raising appeal during the sit-in. And the House Speaker today, as we could have predicted -- and I think we did.
LEMON: We did, yes.
BASH: Held it up this morning and said, you see, it was political theater. And you know what? We said it last night. It was political theater. But theater is put on so that you get an audience. And they did.
[22:05:05] Yes. They gave them the fuel to, you know, for this counter argument...
BASH: Yes, they did.
LEMON: ... that this was nothing but, you know, a ploy or stunt, as they say. So, what's the fallout going to be going forward? Do you think it's going to affect the campaign?
BASH: Unclear how much it is going to affect the campaign. If you look at actually what happened in the Senate today, the sponsor of a bipartisan compromise on guns, Susan Collins, she claimed that she thinks that -- you know, again, what she called the stunt in the House actually hurt her chances of getting more broad bipartisan compromise and actually getting the votes.
Because there was a test vote in the Senate and it failed. She thinks that it just became partisan in a way that her compromise was heading for something a little bit different or heading for more consensus.
Unclear if that's the case. But on the campaign trail, you know, like we were talking about last night, Don, we've already seen the gun issue, which was kind of -- became almost a third rail for democrats worried about angering some of their rural supporters. That's out the window.
They are -- it has become a much more starkly partisan issue. And I think it will continue to be as we head to November.
LEMON: Dana Bash, always a pleasure. Thank you very much.
BASH: You, too, Don.
LEMON: I want to bring in now CNN's senior legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin and Alan Dershowitz. He is the author of "Taking the Stand, My life and the Law."
Good evening, gentlemen.
Jeffrey, I'm going to start with you. Because you wrote the book "The Nine," which is about the justice. So, the immigration decision was split 4-4, blocking the president's immigration plan. Explain the justices' ruling.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, the justices themselves did not explain their ruling. Because when the court splits 4-4, they just write one sentence. They say "affirmed by an equally divided court." Ao, we are only left to assume what their reasoning was.
The reasoning of the lower court, the reasoning of the court whose decision is now the law of that part of the country was that the executive order that President Obama issued about these families was outside his power as president.
If he wanted to say to these families -- and they were mostly families who came into this country illegally and then had children, who are American citizens -- if he wanted to allow them to get work permits, to start to reintegrate into legal American society, he needed an act of Congress. He couldn't do it on his own.
That was the gist of the lower court decision, and that we are left to assume is what the Supreme Court left in place.
LEMON: OK. So, remember all this talk about Merrick Garland, right, if President Obama's Supreme Court nominee, Merrick Garland, had been appointed, would that have changed the outcome, Jeffrey?
TOOBIN: You bet. You bet that it would have. You know, everything we know about Merrick Garland would have meant he would have joined the four other democratic appointees to affirm President Obama's ruling. The four republican nominees would have likely still voted against it. But that's the difference between 5 to 4 and 4 to 4. He's not on the court so Obama lost.
LEMON: All right. Mr. Dershowitz, this case was about the parent of the so-called dreamers, of the children born in the U.S. of illegal immigrant parents. What will happen to them now? Is it clear?
ALAN DERSHOWITZ, HARVARD LAW SCHOOL PROFESSOR: I don't think very much will happen to them. First of all, the president still has the authority to decide on a case by case basis whether or not people should be deported or not. He is not going to issue an order, deporting people.
Second of all, this rule only applies in one circuit. If somebody wanted to bring a lawsuit in the Ninth Circuit in California, the Second Circuit in New York, they might get a different result. And then we would have one law for several states in the southwest and one law for a state in the northeast and states in the far west.
And so this is not a definitive decision by the Supreme Court. All it does is affirms the circuit court decision. So, it is a tragedy for people who are still in limbo. They don't know what their status is. But I suspect we're not going to see any mass deportations during the rest of the Obama administration.
LEMON: OK. So, let's talk about what's happening. Go ahead, Jeffrey. Did you want to say something?
TOOBIN: Well, just two small points. One is the judge, the district court judge in Texas issued an injunction that covered the whole country. Very unusual situation.
So, Alan is right that this ruling only applies to the Fifth Circuit, which is the, you know, mostly the southern part of the country. But at the moment, this judge's injunction for the whole country applies.
So, maybe there would be another lawsuit. But no such lawsuit exists. The other point you made was about dreamers. I mean, some of the nomenclature, some of the wording gets confusing.
[22:10:02] This case is not really about the dreamers. The dreamers are the kids who were brought to the United States as children.
TOOBIN: Who made no choice of their own to come to the United States and have lived here essentially their whole lives. This case is actually about the parents...
LEMON: Of the dreamers?
TOOBIN: ... of children who were born in the United States.
LEMON: OK. I got you. OK.
DERSHOWITZ: Jeffrey is right about the district court's decision. But I would hope that there would be lawsuits brought now in federal district courts in California and New York in front of judges who might be more sympathetic, and they might refuse to issue injunctions or might issue declaratory judgments saying that the president's order is in effect.
So, we may get this kind of conflict. Although I agree with Jeffrey that the order as it stands now covers the entire United States. It's very, very confusing from a legal point of view. And 4-4 decisions are often confusing, because they're, you know, they're ties. And the tie goes to the lower court.
And it leaves a lot of people with a great deal of uncertainty, which is why Congress, the Senate ought to give a vote to Merrick Garland. They're not going to do it, but surely, they should.
LEMON: Jeffrey is laughing at that.
TOOBIN: There's a reason why there's an odd number of justices on the Supreme Court is because you know...
LEMON: Because of situation like this.
TOOBIN: ... to eliminate the problem of ties. Yes.
LEMON: So, what the -- Alan, I want to take this to the campaign trail. Donald Trump, you know, with his position the polls looking more precarious. Do you think republicans might come to regret not confirming Merrick Garland.
DERSHOWITZ: No. I think if they had confirmed Merrick Garland, I agree with Jeffrey, most likely he would have voted with the four to uphold the President. Although we don't know for sure he is a moderate. He is centrist with a kind of liberal attempt tilt. So, I suspect you have voted that way.
No, I don't think so. I think if Hillary Clinton wins the election and the Senate goes to the democrats then I think we'll see a rush by republicans to vote for Merrick Garland as the lesser of potential evils.
But unless both those things happen, democratic president, democratic Senate, I think we'll see the situation remain the way it is.
LEMON: OK. We're going to continue this conversation right after the break. We'll continue talking about this and also we're going to talk about what has happened in Baltimore. I think, Jeffrey Toobin, if we can put him back up, I think, Jeffrey, you may have predicted this, what happened in Baltimore. We'll discuss.
Plus, we're going to take a look at London live all night long here. It's breaking news. Votes being counted in tonight's in the U.K.'s Brexit referendum. CNN's Christiane Amanpour is there for us as well.
When we come right back, today's Supreme Court decision queues President Obama. We'll continue that discussion but what does it mean for the next president? We're back in a moment.
[22:15:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Supreme Court blocking President Obama's executive action on immigration. The President is clearly disappointed saying everyone knows the immigration system is broken. Now it's up to the voters to do something about it in November.
Back with me now, Jeffrey Toobin and Alan Dershowitz. So, gentlemen, let's continue to talk about what's happening on the campaign trail.
Jeffrey, presidential campaign has already been, you know, in full talk about building a wall, deporting undocumented immigrants and banning people. Does this decision to raise, does this race the stakes for even higher for this election?
TOOBIN: Absolutely. And it also just forces people again to focus on the issue of immigration. I mean, Donald Trump has said very clearly that there are 11 people undocumented unlawfully in the United States. He is going to try to remove them all.
LEMON: Eleven million.
TOOBIN: Eleven million, yes. That he is going to try to remove them all, throw them all out of the country. Hillary Clinton has said she wants to go even farther than President Obama in creating opportunities for them to stay. It is one of the clearest differences between the two candidates and this is why we have elections.
TOOBIN: It's just a central disagreement between them.
LEMON: Alan, the speaker has been vocal about this. He's responding to an act of the decision was announced. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAUL RYAN, U.S. SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: I want to say a word about the Supreme Court ruling that we just got that halts the president's executive amnesty. This is a win for the Constitution, it's a win for Congress, and it's a win in our fight to restore the separation of powers.
Presidents don't write laws. Congress writes laws. This is a case that the House weighed in because it's fundamental to our system of checks and balances. Congress, not the president, writes our laws. And today, the Supreme Court validated that very core, essential fundamental principle.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Taking straight aim at the president there, so what does this mean for future presidents?
DERSHOWITZ: Well, I think it depends on who the president is. The republicans certainly supported President Bush when he was making all kinds of executive decisions. It really depends on who's ox is being gourd.
I do generally agree with the speaker that president have gotten, too much power and that the framers of the Constitution intended for general laws to be adopted by Congress. Now this is a mixed situation because it involves administering the laws.
It involves how do you decide whether to deport people who are subject to deportation in a discretionary way? But getting back to Congress, I have to tell you, I think the democrats shot themselves in the foot today. And I'm a liberal democrat, supporter of Hillary Clinton.
I think they hurt her by making fools of themselves, sitting in on Congress and pulling this kind of stunt. I think if Hillary Clinton is going to win she's going to win because she has gravitas and because the republicans are a bunch of buffoons.
Now the democrats are a bunch of buffoons, playing games, sitting on the house floor, screaming and singing. This can't help but help Donald Trump and help the democrats.
So, I'm embarrassed of the democrats for having pulled this stunt, even though I agree with their policy of trying to get a vote on gun control. They have to be serious. And they have to show gravitas if they're going to win this election against Trump.
And what we're seeing in England shows that this is too close to call. All the polls suggested that, you know, Brexit is going to lose. We don't know what the results going to be. But it's much closer than anyone anticipated.
Passion and anger determine votes and passion and anger could bring Donald Trump to the presidency and the democrats shouldn't be playing into his hands, as they did with these foolish maneuvers in the House of Representatives.
[22:20:09] LEMON: So, do you think that what they did was all -- was about Hillary Clinton or was it really because they have passion for what they were doing?
DERSHOWITZ: No, they had passion for what they were doing. They certainly didn't think they were helping Hillary Clinton. I just think it back fires.
LEMON: But you just think it was a bad move.
DERSHOWITZ: I think that Hillary Clinton has to show that she has gravitas. She's serious. She is the substantive candidate as opposed to the guy who plays games and invokes all these kinds of stunts and now the democrats are invoking stunts. I think it hurt Hillary and I'm sorry for that.
LEMON: Yes. So, Jeffrey Toobin, it's clear that, you know, it's hard to get our lawmakers to come to consensus on a lot of issues, one of which is immigration. We know the system is broken. Politicians haven't been able to fix it. So, what is the answer? Is it up to the people?
TOOBIN: It is because they pick the legislators. It's worth remembering that in 2013, right after President Obama was re-elected, the Senate passed Comprehensive Immigration Reform with 68 votes, in unusual but truly bipartisan ruling -- bill that was endorsed by Marco Rubio and John McCain as well as all the democrats in the Senate. But John Boehner, the Speaker of the House for all those years, never
put it up for a vote in the House of Representatives. And I think most people believe that if he had actually put it up for a vote, it would have passed.
So, you know, immigration reform is not that far off. But at the moment, Congress is not -- is not willing to do it.
LEMON: But everything is being politicized.
TOOBIN: But it's one of those rare issues...
LEMON: Even more so even than usual in this climate. I hate to cut you off, Jeffrey. But I want to get to -- I want to get to what happened in Baltimore and get both of your reactions.
LEMON: I want to talk about the court's decision today in the Freddie Gray case in Baltimore. Caesar Goodson is the driver of that police van that transported Gray from the scene of his arrest to the hospital. Caesar Goodson was acquitted today. Was that a fair decision, Jeffrey?
TOOBIN: Based on the evidence I saw, yes, it was. I mean, the death of Freddie Gray was a tragedy. What is not clear to this day is whether it was a crime. We have now had two acquittals of two of the strongest cases, supposedly, against the Baltimore cops who were with him when he died.
You know, I think Marilyn Mosby -- who with three acquittals. Marilyn Mosby, the prosecutor, clearly acted too quickly. Remember, it was just within hours of Freddie Gray's death that she announced the charges against all six police officers. There wasn't time to do a thorough investigation and now we have the worst of all possible worlds, which is acquittals and no resolution
LEMON: For all three of the cases that have gone to court now.
TOOBIN: Three, yes.
TOOBIN: Yes, I said two. It was three. And the three that are coming are the weakest.
LEMON: What does that mean, Alan, for the rest of them?
DERSHOWITZ: Well, to her credit, I think what the district attorney tried to do is quell a potential riot. That's not her job. That may be the job of the mayor but it's not the job of the district attorney. And she overcharged and I predicted on the day she overcharged that what happened here and what happened in Florida with Treyvon Martin case with overcharging would happen again.
And you have to be so careful. You have to base your indictment on the evidence. And the evidence here just didn't justify any kind of a murder charge. It might have justified some negligence charges. And if she had charged appropriately, she might have gotten some convictions.
But she did stave off riots. And the end result is we're not going to hopefully have riots. But we'll have a lot of dissatisfaction by people who think that the white system of justice doesn't satisfy the needs of the African-American community.
There's a lot of basis for that. But these cases don't prove that.
DERSHOWITZ: These cases we have overcharging by politically motivated prosecutors, really do result in negative results for everybody.
LEMON: Got to run. Thank you, gentlemen. I appreciate it. Thank you, Jeffrey. Thank you, Alan.
Up next, Donald Trump taking time off the campaign trail to open a golf course in Scotland. But is it a mistake to put business before politics?
Plus, we're going to bring you the very latest on the breaking news, votes being counted tonight in the U.K.'s Brexit referendum.
[22:25:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: We do have some breaking news out of the U.K. where votes are being counted in a Brexit referendum on whether Britain will stay in the European Union. We're going to go live to London throughout the evening.
We're going to continue to check on this. Correspondents and producers station throughout Britain to get you results on what's happening with the Brexit referendum.
So, meanwhile, Donald Trump is flying to Scotland to visit his golf properties and despite the fact that he is a presumptive republican nominee. He is not planning to meet with any government officials.
CNN's senior White House correspondent Jim Acosta has more now. Jim?
JIM ACOSTA, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Don, this will be no easy putt for Donald Trump. Trump will be here in Scotland for what is essentially a business trip. He will be doing a ribbon cutting on a newly refurbished golf course Trump owns here in Turnberry, Scotland.
And I'm told most of Trump's family will be here for that event. But unlike past presidential candidates at this stage of a general election campaign, Trump is not slated to meet with any foreign leaders on this oversees visit. Not the British Prime Minister, not even top government officials here in Scotland. Trump, as you know, has clashed with British Prime Minister David Cameron, who slammed the presumptive GOP nominee's proposals to ban Muslims coming into the U.S., which is why Hillary Clinton released a web video mocking Trump's trip today. Here is what was in that video earlier today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Like this later will discuss a petition signed by more than half a million people to ban Trump from entering Britain.
JACK DROMEY, BRITISH PARLIAMENT MEMBER: Donald Trumps is a fool. He is free to be a fool. He is not free to be a dangerous fool on our shores.
[22:30:03] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In that exclusive interview Mr. Trump told me should he become president he might not have a good relationship with David Cameron and he challenge London's first Muslim Mayor, Sadiq Khan, to an I.Q. test.
DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Looks like we're not going to have a very good relationship.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JIM ACOSTA, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Over the weekend, Trump will head to a separate golf property in the town of Aberdeen, Scotland, where he has clashed with residents who are proposed to the project there. A few home owners in the area have even raised Mexican flags to protest Trump's immigration rhetoric.
But a Trump source tells me this trip absolutely makes sense even during the campaign, noting this multi-million dollar project has his name on it. So, of course, he wants to make sure it's being managed to his standards. Don?
DON LEMON, CNN TONIGHT SHOW HOST: All right. Jim Acosta, thank you very much.
I want to bring in now Andre Bauer, he is the former Lieutenant Governor of the South Carolina -- of South Carolina who supports Donald Trump. Van Jones is here, he is former official in the Obama administration, Maria Cardona with me tonight in New York, democratic strategist who supports Hillary Clinton and is a super delegate. And republican strategist Kevin Madden here as well. You're not a super delegate, Kevin madden?
KEVIN MADDEN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No, no. Just a regular delegate.
MARIA CARDONA, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: You bet.
LEMON: Just a delegate. Oh, well. One day. One day. So, welcome, Andre. I want to start with you. Trump -- Donald Trump going to Scotland to open a golf course. Is it a little off topic right now? ANDRE BAUER, FORMER SOUTH CAROLINA LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR: Well, the
first thing I would bring up is that normally in any election, after a hard-fought battle, most folks take a few days off. It's very common that you take a little time off, recharge your batteries. What makes Donald Trump tick is business. He's recharging his batteries by taking a trip, supporting his son and doing his does best and that's business.
LEMON: So, you're saying it's not off topic?
BAUER: I don't know that off topic. He's still in the full news cycle. You're talking about him every day and you're reinforcing to the American public that this guy is a business guy, and he's not a politician.
Quite frankly, he probably didn't travel there like you and I do. He didn't have to go to TSA, and get a poor man's massage. He went over there in what quite frankly is a mobile office for him.
LEMON: Andre, Andre?
LEMON: I just needed you to answer my question. Do you think it is off topic?
BAUER: Sure, it's off topic. But he's not an on-topic candidate.
LEMON: OK. Thank you. All right. So, as we say in the polls, Hillary Clinton, we've been saying this, is eight points ahead of Donald Trump in Florida. They're tied in Ohio, virtual tie in Pennsylvania. So, do you think that, you know, his time would be better spent campaigning in battleground states?
BAUER: I don't think the average person right now is paying that much attention. We haven't even had the convention yet. Most folks are working. I mean, guys like us that pay attention to this, sure we're paying attention.
But swing voters, most of them are working hard right now. And this is not what they're primarily concerned with. After the conventions, yes, they'll pay more attention to it. But I don't think it makes a big difference right now.
LEMON: OK. Do you think it makes a difference, Kevin Madden?
MADDEN: It does. Look, I mean, people are paying attention, this is a very important election. We are 120-plus days away before the election. And we're only, you know, maybe three weeks away from the conventions. People are paying attention.
When you have an opportunity like this to drive a message about -- or by going overseas, Donald Trump is sending the wrong type of message. Where he could be sending a message about national security or showcasing his potential talents as a world leader or as a future commander-in-chief.
Instead he's showing as -- he's hawking a golf course that he's building. I don't think that's really the message that is going to resonate with those swing voters that the lieutenant governor was talking about.
They want some clarity on national security. They want some sense of stability on foreign policy. And, you know, standing on the 18th hole over at Trump Turnberry is not exactly going to do that.
LEMON: Do you think it's bad optics, Maria?
CARDONA: I absolutely think it's bad optics. Because first of all, it underscores everything that we have heard up until now in terms of Donald Trump's bad business practices. So, let's not -- let's not forget that we just came off of a whole slew of coverage of Trump University and how he defrauded thousands of people because they didn't get what they paid for.
And then now we're talking about his golf resort in Scotland, which apparently is losing millions of dollars and in the process of putting together this project, he essentially made everybody mad. He rolled everybody over there, using the equivalent of imminent domain, kicking people off of their property.
There is going to be tons of people protesting because they really don't like him. They talked about -- he talked about how he reported in Scotland apparently how he lost a lot of money. And then over here in the financial disclosure forms he reported that he made a lot of money. So, which is it?
This gives democrats and Hillary Clinton a huge opportunity to talk about what a fraud he is when it comes to business.
LEMON: Van Jones, the candidates do take trips across the pond to bolster their foreign policy credentials. That's not new. Barack Obama, when he was a candidate, President Obama he was a candidate in 2008 did it, Mitt Romney in 2012. So, how is this different?
[22:35:08] VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, that's what's so remarkable. He is actually going to Europe at a major, major moment in history. Is the European Union essentially going to break up because Britain leaves?
This is a huge moment. He could go there, he could talk to people, he could make the case for them to stay, to go. He's not talking to one leader. Not one elected official. Not a dog catcher. Nobody! He's just going to show off his new golf course thing. And it's almost like he's profiteering off of his candidacy. Listen.
LEMON: But what about to Andre's point where he says everybody needs a break? You know, everybody needs a vacation.
LEMON: Seriously. JONES: Well, listen. Most people when they take a vacation, they take
a vacation. This is not a vacation. This is a business kind of junket in the middle of the presidency. There is this danger of him just seeming unseemly, when it comes to the business that he's running while he's running for president.
Don't forget. He was charging his own campaign money from his hotels and everything else. Almost making money off his own campaign. I just...
LEMON: He did explain that today.
LEMON: He did explain that and said why give other, you know, hotel or venue the money when he can give his own? And, you know, some people understand that.
But, listen, to Van's point, Andre, and to the point I was trying to make earlier, is it off topic? Especially I asked because when nearly 7 in 10 voters think that GOP presumptive nominee should, you know, stop down from the -- step down, excuse me, from the Trump organization while he is in politics right now. So, what do you say to those voters?
BAUER: I tend to agree that he should. But from my understanding, this was kind of a big deal for his son. He has taken a day or two off to go over there and support his son. And, you know, he is an unorthodox candidate again. But it reinforces the guy first and foremost he is a business guy. And again, it's never been unusual for candidates to take a few days off, usually a week off after a hard- fought primary.
LEMON: OK. Also, Van, I need to tell you that today he said in a statement he said he would no longer make his campaign repay $50 million loan.
Again, we'll continue to talk about that. Stay with me, everyone. When we come right back, we're going to continue to talk about this conversation and also we're going to take you to the U.K. to figure out what's going on with their Brexit referendum vote. Don't go anywhere.
[22:40:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Donald Trump blasting Hillary Clinton tonight.
Back with me, Andre Bauer, Van Jones, Maria Cardona, and Kevin Madden. So, Kevin, just before the break I was saying, you're responding to Van saying that Donald Trump announce today in a statement that he would no longer make his campaign repay the $50 million loan. But he has to officially file that with the FEC, right?
MADDEN: That's correct. I think that when he does he'll send the message to a lot of the -- I think a lot of the observers and many even supporters that he's will probably going to make a stronger effort to self-fund his campaign.
LEMON: Do you think that will help him with GOP voters? That will motivate GOP donors, excuse me?
MADDEN: Well, yes, I think -- well, one of the problems when you self-fund is that, donors then begin to pull back. They figure, well, you've got the money to write your own check, then why should I -- why should I buck up my own? If you're going to write one check, right some more.
But the other part of that is that you need money to raise money. So, if he wants to go and do a low dollar or small donor program of writing his own check to go out and fund the type of infrastructure that you need to do that could help him farm a lot of that grassroots support that he has enjoyed across the country from the millions of voters that supported him in the primary so that he has a better general election war chest.
LEMON: And his campaign did say that he raised a lot of money in the last week or so. We'll see once we get the official totals. Andre, Donald Trump spoke with NBC's Lester Holt tonight and he was asked about, you know, one of his many claims against Hillary Clinton. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LESTER HOLT, NBC NIGHTLY NEWS HOST: You also made the claim that her e-mail, personal e-mail server had been hacked probably by foreign governments suggesting that...
DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, you don't know that it hasn't been.
HOLT: Well, wait a minute. But suggesting that she would be compromised as president. What evidence do you have?
TRUMP: Well, first of all, she shouldn't have had a personal server, OK? She shouldn't have had it. It's illegal. What she did is illegal. Now she may not be judged that way because, you know, we have a rigged system. But what she did is illegal. She shouldn't have had a personal server.
HOLT: But is there any evidence that it was hacked other than routine phishing attacks?
TRUMP: I think I read that, and I heard it.
TRUMP: And somebody also gave me that information. will report back to you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: OK. So, Andre, don't facts matter? Because right now it sounds like Donald Trump has no concrete evidence, almost as if he, you know, saw it on Twitter or something.
BAUER: Actually, he would have done a better job, had he listed several of the news entities -- I believe The Washington Post actually -- there were several entities have actually exposed where the problem lied. He didn't have the ammunition, which would have solidified his point.
LEMON: That is an honest answer. Thank you. Please, go on.
BAUER: Don, I mean, I think that, you know, I don't have much more to give to you than that on a lot of things. I mean, clearly, he doesn't handle things like I would or you would or a lot of other folks. He does things a little bit different and he's made traction.
I'm not the presidential nominee so I hate to question it. But any time he can give these nuggets and shut down, you know, a reporter and say, yes, I've got the -- not only the fire that I've thrown at it, I've got to back it up by x, y and z. I think that helps.
It helps voters that are still trying to decide. And I think -- I think you're seeing Donald Trump become more of a candidate instead of just haphazardly just kind of flying from the hip. And he's still not where a lot of republicans would like to see him. But he's moving in that direction, I think.
LEMON: OK. All right. But, Maria, when he answered the question, you actually were in agreement with Andre about, you know, he should have had some ammunition.
[22:45:01] I mean, the fact is, we don't know if it's criminal. It has not been called criminal.
LEMON: It is being investigated.
CARDONA: And this claim that he talked about during this interview has been completely debunked. He used some hacker that claims he had hacked into her server and investigators actually looked into that and have completely debunked that.
But that goes to something that this is just par for the course for Donald Trump. This is what he does. He throws things out there, regardless of whether they're true or not and then, you know, it's crack for his supporters. And he knows then it's something that it's going to continue to be talked about in the ether.
Whether its - you know, he talks about how he heard stuff on the internet.
CARDONA: He talks about how -- you know, on the issue of whether he's prepared on foreign policy, that he hears stuff on the Sunday shows.
But all of that I also think, it underscores how unserious this man is in the need to have the kind of preparation you need to become commander-in-chief.
And that I think, is something that Hillary Clinton and the democrats are going to continue to expose. This trip that he's doing to Scotland, I think that is something that donors, republican donors should be concerned about.
Apparently, as I understand it, the campaign is paying for it. And he's not doing anything campaign related there. Right? He's not meeting, as you said, with any of the leaders over there and probably that's a good thing.
LEMON: In the same vain, do we know that the campaign is paying for it?
CARDONA: My understanding is that it is. And I don't know if Andre or Kevin have any other information.
MADDEN: Well, let me make a point on that, Maria, on the server part. There are very important critiques that Donald Trump could have made about the server. If you take the OIG report, two things came out of that OIG report, from the -- which is the Office of Inspector General from the State Department.
The first was that Hillary Clinton having a server was not allowed. The second was that because that server was used, national security was put at risk. Those are two points that Donald Trump could have prosecuted.
But by slightly going over the line and talking about and making an accusation about that server being hacked, that distracted from the two core points which you as a Clinton surrogate and Hillary Clinton herself cannot defend. That's where the missed opportunity is.
CARDONA: Well, I disagree with you on that.
LEMON: But even, Kevin, as, you know, as a journalist when you say in order to call something criminal, it must be criminal, right? It must be proven criminal and to, you know, if your presidential...
MADDEN: That's right. And...
LEMON: Right. Go ahead.
MADDEN: Right. I think the important point to do in a campaign would be to put that question to the Clinton campaign and have the media start asking questions of Hillary Clinton.
But what happens is when he goes over the line and makes some of those things that border on conspiratorial or he's using facts that are not necessarily, you know, demonstrated that's where this distraction. And we've lost an opportunity here to really prosecute a tough, tough issue with Hillary Clinton. Or at least in that moment we did.
LEMON: Van, I've got to go. Van, I'll give you the last word. You didn't say much in this one. Corey Lewandowski who now works for CNN said the fact that there's no proof is just a failure of our government, what do you think of that?
JONES: Well, I just think that if you had a student who answered questions the way that Donald Trump does, you would not make that student the valedictorian. I know there's a fact. But I don't know where I got the fact from, maybe he's on Wikipedia, maybe he's on Twitter. Give me my a. I want to be valedictorian. This guy has got to get better if he wants to be president of the United States.
LEMON: Great conversation. Thank you all. Coming up, braking news, the vote in the U.K. that could impact the U.S. and the entire world economy. Will Britain leave or stay from the European Union? The voting is neck and neck tonight.
[22:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Breaking news out of the U.K. tonight. Polls are closed and the votes are being counted on the referendum on whether Britain should remain in the European Union.
Our chief international correspondent Christiane Amanpour is outside of Parliament for us this evening -- this morning there. Christiane, this is fascinating. This is an unprecedented vote. And the results are so close, you know, from one minute to the other. The leaves are ahead, next the remains. What do you know?
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Don, it is extraordinary because in the last hour or so, we've seen a lot of see-sawing but we've also seen now leave taking a consistent slight lead. But nonetheless a consistent slight lead.
We also are reporting that our affiliate, CNN affiliate ITV News, is predicting using all its algorithms, and mathematics and analysis that there is an 80 percent chance that the final vote will be leave.
Now this, in itself, is unprecedented. Never has an E.U. member nation voluntarily or any other way, left the E.U. And this is going to have shock waves. You can already see the shock waves it's having. At one point the pound was down 10 percent. It may be down lower. I'm not looking at the board right now. The indicators across the financial markets that are open are down.
So, this is a real turmoil in the markets. Even though they have been sort of prepared for maybe this happening. And we'll have to see what happens here. It's really politically putting the Prime Minister, David Cameron's position at risk. And really throwing up 40 years of Britain being in the E.U. and all
the laws and regulations and economic progress that Britain has made. So, we'll see what happens the next few hours when all the results are in.
LEMON: Let's talk about what's happening the parallels that we're seeing. Some people say they see parallels between the Brexit vote and what's going on here with the Donald Trump campaign conflicts over immigration, anger at the political class. In your view is that a valid comparison, Christiane?
AMANPOUR: I think, yes, I think it is a valid comparison. And it's not just the U.S. and the E.K. It's in the Europe, it's in the far east. Look what just happened in the Philippines. What you've got is and we've said it a million times, this anti-establishment tone, this populism that is suddenly, you know, been unleashed all over the world and it's taking many, many people and institutions by surprise.
[22:54:57] Honestly, people this week did not think that "leave" would win, particularly after the assassination of Jo Cox exactly a week ago. They thought that the "leave" momentum had been stopped certainly in terms of the campaigning and certainly in terms of the public tone.
And there was a lot of betting that remained would just eke out a victory. Again, it's not over yet. We don't know. But it's not looking good for the "remain" camp as we speak now.
But yes, this nationalism, this populism, this anger that's being funneled to, you know -- anger that's being funneled against immigrants because of whatever they feel, you know, they're losing potentially in the economic field.
They're focusing all of this against immigrants and against the quote, unquote, "elite." So, this is what's going on. And so that's why Europe is very concerned that what happens in Britain could, as one member said to me, spark a psychological run on the banks.
Well, a run is happening right now, literally, on the banks. But in terms of other countries trying to spinoff as well. And this is going to be really difficult for Europe to try to control. Don?
LEMON: Our very own Christiane Amanpour, reporting for us live from London, keeping an eye on the Brexit vote. Thank you very much, Christiane.
Make sure you stay with CNN all night long for the latest on the U.K.'s Brexit referendum. Plus, when we come right back, an emotional day in the Supreme Court today, and what it could mean in this election year and for decades to come.
[23:00:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: So, the breaking news, serious stuff here. Votes being counted in the U.K. tonight in the referendum that will determine whether Britain...