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AT THIS HOUR WITH BERMAN AND MICHAELA

Feud Intensifies Between Trump, Ginsburg; Poll: Trump Leads Clinton in Swing States; David Cameron Gives Final Remarks as Prime Minister; Interview with Brian Fallon. Aired 11:30a-12p ET

Aired July 13, 2016 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[11:30:00] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: This is the latest salvo from Ginsburg. "She said, he is a faker. He has no consistency about him. He says whatever comes into his head at the moment. He really has an ego. How has he got be away with not turning over his tax returns?"

I want to discuss this. I want to bring back Gloria Borger, Mary Katharine Ham and Angela Rye. Also joining us, CNN senior legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin; and CNN political commentator, Andre Bauer, former lieutenant governor of South Carolina.

Jeffrey Toobin, you know the court, you know it well, you've written books on the subject. How unusual is it for a Supreme Court justice to say what Justice Ginsburg has, and how appropriate is it?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: It's completely unprecedented in the modern history of the Supreme Court. There has never been a justice who has explicitly taken the position for or against one candidate for office in the midst of a presidential election. Frankly, it's inappropriate. I don't have any false idealism that the court is somehow apart from politics. These justices are all savvy people who understand the political implications of their work. But there is a tradition that they stay out of actual elections. And I think it's a good tradition.

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: I mean, as Jeff was kind of pointing to, other justices, conservative justices, have gone to summits hosted by the Koch brothers, Gloria, no one kind of -- they all have political thoughts. They don't talk about them so openly. What are your thoughts?

GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: I agree with Jeffrey. I think it's not appropriate for her to do this. You know, we're not naive. Justices are human beings and they have political views. But I just want to remind you of a case called Bush versus Gore back in 2000 when the Supreme Court had to effectively decide an election, and it did. Now, if you had had Justice Ginsburg on that, would you say she ought to recuse herself and aren't cases going to come before the court that are political where lawyers could argue that this judge should not be sitting on this case if there were a President Trump? I think she opens herself up to all of criticism. I think she opens the court up to criticism. If I were a fellow justice, I don't think I'd be really happy about what she did.

BERMAN: I wouldn't be happy if I were a Democrat or the Clinton campaign either.

Andre, Lieutenant Governor, let me ask you this. Despite the fact there seems to be wide agree that what she said is inappropriate, Donald Trump went after her today and, among other things, said her mind is shot. He said her mind is shot, she should resign. A lot of people are reading this as an attack on her age. Is that appropriate?

ANDRE BAUER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I totally believe in freedom of speech. She is free to say what she likes. It does put her in a little bit of a precarious situation. I don't know what his actual reason why he said she should resign is. It does make it very difficult, though, if he has issues that come up when he's president and she has to rule. But I still do honor her freedom of speech, even though I think it was probably very inappropriate for her to do it.

BOLDUAN: What about the attack on her age though?

BAUER: I don't think he should be attacking her for age. I come from a state where we had a United States Senator at 100 years old so I would never go after somebody for their age.

BERMAN: Storm Thurmond. But this is young by Strom Thurmond standards.

(LAUGHTER)

BOLDUAN: Mary Katherine, the Supreme Court vacancy -- the Supreme Court in general, and the vacancy of Scalia, a very big deal for conservatives in this election. Does this play right into their hands?

MARY KATHARINE HAM, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, look, I think she was out of line. RBG is all yellow. It's not a great move on her part. Here's the thing though about Donald Trump, is he will take a moment like this and not capitalize on it in the way he should. She's clearly in the wrong here. This is going to cause problems for her down the road. But he will overstep on Twitter and make her, you know -- make himself much less sympathetic. That is the pattern of the Trump campaign.

(CROSSTALK)

TOOBIN: If I can just add one point. Justice Ginsburg has shown in her work on the bench that at 83 years old she is very much on the top of her game. I mean, she is --

BORGER: Right.

TOOBIN: She is still very much a full participant in all the activities of the court. One of the things about people when they get older though is they become more like themselves. And she's more like herself. She's more outspoken. And I think she should have not said it. But the idea that she's sort of out to lunch or has, you know -- is really not right.

BOLDUAN: Mental capacity, right, exactly. BERMAN: Angela Rye, I want to ask you about another big political

story happening today. A new round of polling out of swing states Florida, Pennsylvania and Ohio which show Donald Trump doing well. A big reversal in Florida, where he now leads Hillary Clinton in the polls there. Is this a reason for the Clinton campaign to worry and, if not, why not?

[11:35:07] ANGELA RYE, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think a couple of things. One, it's just July. I think that no one is disillusioned by the fact that the battleground states were always going to be battleground states and these numbers are going to fluctuate up and down throughout. So I think there's no real worry here. I think you also saw the Clinton spokesman say they anticipate they will continue to have to fight and this is going to be a tough one. And a Trump candidacy is dangerous for all the reasons that we always talk about, including, you know, saying that older people have -- are out of their minds or whatever else, even if they sit on the Supreme Court. So, yes, I think this is more of the same. It's a battleground poll. We expect things to be tight throughout.

BOLDUAN: Gloria, no real worry? Hillary Clinton blew it. Her eight- point lead there evaporated.

BORGER: I think there is a real worry. The real worry is the problem remains her problem, only more so, which is, in the state of Florida, accord to this poll -- and, again, these things will fluctuate -- that by 50 percent, people believe Donald Trump is more honest and trustworthy. This whole e-mail controversy recently and James Comey's statements have really not helped her, talking about her carelessness. He didn't indict her, but he did talk about her issues and her problems and her behavior, and not in a good way for her. So I think that this has shown up, you know, in this poll.

One more thing about Ginsburg, let me just say, she kind of stepped in it because when Republicans who don't like Trump say they're going to vote for Trump, one of the reasons is the Supreme Court. She just kind of made the argument for Donald Trump and for Republicans who are on the line, saying, OK, we need to change this.

BERMAN: More of an issue for the Republicans than Democrats?

BORGER: I think it's an issue -- no, it's an issue for both parties, obviously, but Republicans who don't like Trump, and there are a lot of them, they can say -- and we heard Paul Ryan say this last night. He said it's a binary choice and I care about the Supreme Court, and that seems to be the meme. We care about the Supreme Court so we have to vote for Donald Trump.

BERMAN: Gloria, Lieutenant governor, Jeffrey, Mary Katherine, Angela, thank you so much.

Talking about politics, politics on steroids here in Great Britain. You're looking at live pictures of 10 Downing Street, where Prime Minister David Cameron lives, current prime minister, current prime minister for about like 20 more minutes. He is due to head to Buckingham Palace shortly where he'll formerly hand in his resignation to the queen. We actually are expecting him to speak before making the trip to Buckingham Palace. Be interesting to hear what he has to say.

BOLDUAN: Also, interesting to hear what we're going to hear from Hillary Clinton. She'll be speaking live at a campaign stop in Illinois fresh off her big endorsement from Bernie Sanders. What are we going to hear from Hillary Clinton now? There's a lot going on in the realm of the political world. We'll take you there, when she goes there live.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:40:23] DAVID CAMERON, OUT-GOING BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: Good afternoon.

When I first stood here in Downing Street, on that evening in May 2010, I said we would confront our problems as a country and lead people through difficult decisions so that together we could reach better times. It's not been an easy journey. And of course, we've not got every decision right. But I do believe that today our country is much stronger.

Above all, it was about turning around the economy. And with the deficit cut by two-thirds, 2.5 million more people in work and one million more businesses, there can be no doubt that our economy is immeasurably stronger.

Politicians like to talk about policies. But in the end, it is about people's lives. I think of the people doing jobs who were previously unemployed. I think of the businesses that were just ideas in someone's head and that today are making a go of it and providing people with livelihoods. I think of the hard-working families paying lower taxes and getting higher wages because of the first ever national living wage. I think of the children who were languishing in the care system and have now been adopted by loving families. I think of the parents now able to send their children to good and outstanding schools, including preschools that simply didn't exist before. I think of over 200,000 young people who have taken part in national service, the fastest growing youth program of its kind in the world, something that, again, wasn't there six years ago. I think of the couples who have been able to get married, who weren't allowed to in the past. And I think of the people on the other side of the world, who wouldn't have had clean drinking water, the chance to go to school or even be alive, were it not for our decision to keep our aid policies to the poorest people and the poorest countries in our world.

And we've used our stronger economy to invest in our health service. When I walked in there, there were 18,000 people waiting over a year for their operation. Today, it's just 800. Too many, still too long, but our NHS is a national treasure, and one whose staff perform miracles as I've seen every day.

And we've strengthened our nation's defenses, the submarines, destroyers and frigates and soon aircraft carriers rolling out of ship yards to keep our country safe in a dangerous world.

These are the choice and the changes that we've made.

I want to thank everyone who has give be so much support to me personally over these years, the incredible team at Number 10, the civil servants whose professionalism and impartiality is one of our country's greatest strengths. And my political advisers, some of whom with me since the day I stood for the leadership 11 years ago.

I want to thank my children, Nancy, Elwin and Florence, for whom Downing Street has been a lovely home over these last six years. They sometimes kick the red boxes full of work.

Florence, you once climbed into one before a foreign trip and said "take me with you."

(LAUGHTER)

Well, no more boxes.

And above all, I want to thank Samantha, the love of my life.

You have kept me vaguely sane. And as well as being an amazing wife, mother, business woman, you have done something every week in that building behind me to celebrate the best of voluntary service in our country.

We will shortly be heading to Buckingham Palace to see her Majesty, the queen, where I'll tender my resignation as minister. And I'll advise Her Majesty to invite Theresa May to form a new administration.

I'm delighted that for the second time in British history the new prime minister will be a woman, and once again a conservative. I believe Theresa will provide strong and stable leadership in fulfilling the conservative manifesto on which we were elected. And I wish her well in negotiating the best possible terms for Britain's exit from the European Union.

Let me finish by saying this. The spirit of service is one of this country's most remarkable qualities. I've seen that service day in, day out, in the incredible work of our armed forces, our intelligence agencies and our police. It is something I always knew, but as prime minister, you see it so directly that it blows you away. And of course, writing those heartbreaking letters to the families who have lost loved ones is a poignant reminder of the profound scale of what these men and women give for us in the defense of our freedoms and our way of life. We must never forget that.

[11:45:17] In a different way, I've seen the same spirit of service in the amazing contributions of countless volunteers and communities up and down our country who are making our society bigger and stronger. And I'm proud that every day for two years I've used the office of prime minister in a non political way, to recognize and thank almost 600 of them, as points of light, whose service can be an inspiration to us all.

For me, politics has always been about public service in the national interest. It is simple to say, but often hard to do. But one of the things that sustains you in this job is the sense that, yes, our politics is argument and debate, and it can get quite heated, but no matter how difficult the decisions are, there's a great sense of British fair play, a quiet but prevailing sense that most people wish their prime minister well, and want them to stick at it and get on with the job.

So I want to take this moment to say thank you to all those who have written letters and e-mails offering me that support, people who I'll never get to meet and never get to thank personally.

It has been the greatest honor of my life to serve our country as prime minister over these last six years and to serve as leader of my party almost 11 years. And as we leave for the last time, my only wish is continued success for this great country that I love so very much.

Thank you.

(APPLAUSE)

BOLDUAN: Outgoing Prime Minister David Cameron, right there, his parting words at 10 Downing Street, standing there with his wife, Samantha, his three children, as they're going to wave. And then soon he will head over to Buckingham Palace, where he will formerly offer his resignation to the queen. Amazing moment we're watching.

Let's go to CNN International diplomatic editor, Nic Robertson, who is live outside parliament right now with much more on what this all means.

Nic, your thoughts.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Well, this is the last time we're going to hear from David Cameron as prime minister. It's from here he goes to see the queen to offer his resignation. He won't be coming back. They are packing up his belongings at 10 Downing Street yesterday.

Theresa May, the incoming prime minister, will go to see the queen, then come back to 10 Downing Street and start afresh. She will form a new cabinet and her government will begin from that point.

I mean, look, it was very, very poignant there. David Cameron talking about his children there, Nancy, Elwin and Florence, even that moment he said when Florence once climbed inside one of his bags and said, "Please take me with you," and also paying such a tribute to his wife, Samantha, as well, saying, "The love of my life, you helped keep me sane or mostly sane." The pressures of being in such a leadership position clearly take their strain. They've been difficult days for him recently.

But as he leaves Downing Street now, we do know there is someone at Downing Street who won't be leaving, and that, in case some of the viewers were wondering, Larry the Cat at Downing Street, he doesn't leave, he stays on for the next prime minister.

BERMAN: A nation breathes a sigh of relief.

Nic Robertson, we know David Cameron had a close working relationship with President Obama. They often referred to each other as friends. What do we know of the incoming Prime Minister Theresa May when it comes to her view of the special relationship?

ROBERTSON: She views this as a very important relationship. I interviewed her about five years ago as the home secretary in charge of national security and we were talking about national security, about working with the United States. This was at a time when al Qaeda was sending some bombs. They sent bombs through Britain. She had worked closely with Janet Napolitano, her opposite number in the United States, and she talked about how important that cooperation is, and how important that cooperation is going forward. I think we can absolutely expect more of the same.

When it came to the invasion of Iraq, Theresa May supported that. When it came to supporting the U.S.-led coalition in Syria in 2013, she voted for that, and again in 2015, when that vote actually carried, again, she voted for support of the U.S.-led coalition in Syria.

So I think this is a leader who's going to follow in David Cameron's footsteps and that of many other British leaders valuing the relationship with Europe at this time. Look, she has to really begin a new relationship with Europe at this time. But Britain still sees itself as an important partner for the United States in helping shape the thinking, the broader policy, if you will, the attitude towards common threats in Europe. So I think you'll find Theresa May continuing to want to play that role.

[11:50:28] BERMAN: Nic Robertson for us in front of parliament.

You're looking at live pictures right there as the small motorcade with the current, but only current for another few minutes, Prime Minister David Cameron makes its way to Buckingham Palace. In a few minutes, you'll see him emerge in that car and walk in to tender his resignation to Queen Elizabeth II.

BOLDUAN: We'll be back right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:54:44] BOLDUAN: Minutes from now, Hillary Clinton is about to take the stage in Springfield, Illinois, where she's expecting to be talking about healing and unity in the wake of last week's shooting across the country. This, as brand-new poll numbers out today showing Hillary Clinton is neck and neck with Donald Trump in key swing states, including Florida, where she saw her eight-point lead from a month ago evaporate into a three-point deficit.

BERMAN: Joining us now, Hillary Clinton's press secretary, Brian Fallon.

Brian, thanks for being with us. It's not just the top-line number where Hillary Clinton has slipped.

She's now trailing Donald Trump in Florida, Pennsylvania, Ohio, in terms of favorability, her numbers in Florida, as far as who is honest and trustworthy, has slipped considerably as well. The question is, FBI Director James Comey called Hillary Clinton extremely careless in how she handled her e-mails. How much has that hurt you?

BRIAN FALLON, PRESS SECRETARY, HILLARY FOR AMERICA CAMPAIGN: I think if you look at the breakdown of the poll, they were in the field for days prior to that press conference the FBI director held. I don't think you can over characterize it as a direct response to the events of last week. In general, I think we've always known battleground states will be extremely tight. That's why they are battleground states. If you look at national polling, we've had leads of significant margins in the past few weeks. In fact, I think I saw a new Reuters poll that had her up by double digit. But if you look at the battleground states, they have been tight throughout and they will remain tight all the way through November. That's why we're not taking anything for granted. That's why we're out on the ground registering voters, out-organizing Donald Trump, to be frank with you, because we believe, in the end, we'll be able to break through based on the organization we build.

If you look at that poll in Florida, for instance, the folks at Quinnipiac suggested Democratic turnout will be four points lower than they thought it would be four months ago when they surveyed in that state. They thought it would be six points lower than 2012. So, look, I'll admit, if more Republicans show up in Florida than Democrats, then Donald Trump will be in a very good position. But that's why we're on the ground organizing. We don't think that will happen but we can't take it for granted. We have to work it.

BOLDUAN: Doesn't look like you are at this point, that's for sure.

As John mentioned, the FBI Director James Comey, you worked at the Justice Department, Brian, before joining the Clinton campaign. When it comes to what the FBI director said about Hillary Clinton's use of private e-mail servers at the time of secretary of state, he was also asked what would happen to people at the FBI, at the Justice Department if they had done the same. What would have happened to you?

FALLON: Look, I think the director's comments on that point were mischaracterized. He refused to engage in hypotheticals. He was asked about potentially if someone mishandled classified information, what might happen to them, and he gave a range of potential disciplinary actions. But, of course, he believes Hillary Clinton did not willfully mishandle any classified information. So I do think that answer has been mischaracterized from the answer he said.

BERMAN: Brian, Brian, I think you're mischaracterizing what the FBI director said. He wasn't --

(CROSSTALK)

FALLON: Go back. (CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: He was asked a direct question, at the FBI, what would happen if someone did something similar to this. He said the range of punishments would be, from letter of reprimand, all the way to being fired. That's directly what he said. He said, if you worked for me, there would be some kind of sanction.

FALLON: If you go back and watch, he refused to engage in a hypothetical where he suggested what should happen to Hillary Clinton. The one thing he did say about Hillary Clinton, there was no evidence of any willful misconduct. In that Thursday hearing, he actually clarified and expanded a lot of what he said on Tuesday on one point after another. On Tuesday, everybody was focused on the fact there said there seemed to have been 110 e-mails that were classified at the time, and perhaps you should have known that. On Thursday, he explained, we looked at all the evidence and couldn't conclude she believed any of those e-mails were classified. Perfectly consistent with what she said all along. If you look at the fact that on Tuesday, he said three e-mails appeared to be marked. On Thursday, he indicated they were improperly marked. Someone might conclude they were unclassified. On Thursday, he said that the reason that she set up the server was, indeed, a matter of convenience --

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: Brian, Brian, we don't need to re-litigate -- we all watched the hearings. We don't need to go over the whole hearings. We only have one minute left. We have a couple more important questions.

BOLDUAN: Ruth Bader Ginsburg told CNN Donald Trump is a faker, also that he has no consistency about him, that he says whatever he said in the moment. How has he gotten away with not turning over his tax returns, she said? Donald Trump has hit back. Republicans and Democrats have come out to say she's gone too far. You think she's gone too far?

FALLON: I'm going to let Ruth Bader Ginsburg speak for herself. We don't believe in personally attacking sitting Supreme Court justices. But I guess it's not to be expected from Donald Trump who just a few weeks ago was attacking another member of the federal bench.

BOLDUAN: But do you think a Supreme Court justice --

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: -- should be weighing in to an election as the election is playing out?

FALLON: I'll let her speak for herself. I would just observe there are a lot of people that agree with what she said. Donald Trump has called for her to step down. I think that's completely inappropriate. But that's no surprise, given the types of people he would like to appoint to the Supreme Court. We saw him disagree, for instance, with the Texas abortion case that was just decided last month. He thought the law should have been upheld, which would have restricted access to abortion and women's health service across the country. That's the type of justice he wants to appoint.

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: Oh, there we go.

Brian Fallon --

BOLDUAN: That was clearly our satellite window, cut off right then.

Brian Fallon, thank you so much. Brian we appreciate it.