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Priest Killed in Terror Attack; At least 19 Killed in Attack on Disabled Facility in Japan; Michelle Obama Steals Show at DNC Convention. Aired 8-9a ET

Aired July 26, 2016 - 8:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[08:00:10] KRISTIE LU STOUT, HOST: Now, we continue to follow breaking new out of Northern France. The Catholic church says a priest was

killed in a hostage standoff at a church. The attack, a terror attack that began this morning during mass.

Another person was seriously wounded, three other hostages were freed.

Now, the two attackers were later killed by police. And we just heard from the French president

Francois Hollande who was there at the scene. He called the attack cowardly.

Now CNN's Jim Bittermann joins me now live from Paris with more. And, Jim, another horrific outbreak of violence in France and this was a terror

attack. It's been linked to ISIS.

JIM BITTERMANN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely. The president made that link himself in his brief remarks from the scene this

morning. He went right to the scene. They must have had some kind of an indication right away that the attackers were members of

ISIS. It was a terrorist attack. Because the president, and the interior minister, took to the road from Paris to this community, which is about an

hour and a half to two hours away from Paris, took to the road immediately, and were there on the scene within a couple of hours. Whatever it took

them to get there.

But in any case, they wanted to reassure the French public, and the president did as much in the

way of speaking about the attacks, he said that this is something that should not be allowed to divide the nation, that the Catholics have been

hit, but all French have been struck by this. And it's time for national cohesion.

Of course, we heard these words before, and maybe in a different order, but we've heard this kind of thing before from the president,

because the attacks now come on the heels of the horrific attack in Nice on the 14th of July, and the other attacks since January of last year, when

Charlie Hebdo was attacked.

So a number of different attacks here, including, by the way, one on the Catholic Church that was foiled, or kind of foiled, an attacker was

going to go hit a Catholic church during mass in a town of Ville-Joie to the east of Paris, and he managed to shoot himself in the foot, or the leg, before that attack, and police found him bleeding in

his car, and on questioning he said he was going to attack the church.

So it's been on the radar before for committed terrorists here to go after the Catholic church, clearly something that is something that's in

the psyche of the terrorists here and President Hollande sees the possibility that he could have on his hand Muslims feeling under attack by

Christians and Christians feeling under attack by Muslims. This country has a 10 percent

Muslim population. So, it's the kind of thing that would be very worrisome for any leader here -- Kristie.

LU STOUT: In that address at the scene of the attack in Normandy, the French president linked the attack to ISIS. He also says that France needs

to fight the war against ISIS, quote, by all means.

Jim, what does he mean by that?

BITTERMANN: Well, the French are already involved in the Middle East hitting targets in Iraq and Syria with their fighter jets and whatnot. And

they moved the Charles de Gaulle fairly recently into position, so that planes at the Charles de Gaulle could carry out attacks against ISIS. So,

they're already involved.

But maybe this means -- maybe what he's trying to say in the sub-text that there's going to

be an increase in military presence. None of that has happened yet, but it's those kind of words suggest that perhaps they were going to do

something to combat the ISIS on the ground in Syria, and Iraq. And of course, some of the experts that we've talked to say that, in fact, one of

the reasons we're seeing these attacks in Europe is that they're under the -- ISIS is under such pressure in the Middle East, that they're now

attacking soft targets in Europe, and you couldn't get a much softer target than a Catholic church in France on a Tuesday morning -- Kristie.

LU STOUT: Yeah, and soft targets like a church very difficult to protect.

Now, Jim, you started reporting on this terror attack when it was an active hostage situation

earlier in the day. Your thoughts on the security response by French police there in Normandy? Now there had been already in place an extended

state of emergency which I can only presume also extended to that part of France. But how well did police, how well did local authorities react to

that hostage crisis and to this latest terror attack in France?

BITTERMANN: Well, I think you could say that three of the hostages escaped without any harm at all, in part because the police SWAT teams were

able to get there so quickly. We understood that the government promised back in April that they were going to put these SWAT teams -- and

there are three different SWAT agencies here -- and they were going to coalesce those agencies, and make them one in terms of their response

times, and make sure that there was at least one SWAT team within 20 minutes of every part of France at any given moment.

And in fact this morning, that played out pretty well. One of the people inside the mass this morning, we understand, it's a nun, was able to

escape, and alert police to the fact that the assailants were in there, and were threatening people. And clearly that message got

through to the SWAT team and they almost were immediately on the scene and they were able to gun down the assailants, we understand it, as they were

coming out of church. And when the police went inside, then, and they found the dead priest, of the church, 86 years old, well-known in the

community, and another man who is gravely injured, we're not sure what his condition is but the French authorities are saying between life and death.

So possibility that he might also survive.

But they were able to free three of the hostages -- Kristie.

[08:05:55] LU STOUT: All right, Jim Bittermann reporting on the death toll, the human toll of this latest terror attack in France. Thank you,

Jim.

Now, CNN's chief international correspondent Christiane Amanpour has been following the

terror attack from the London bureau. She joins us now.

And Christiane, why did this attack in the name of ISIS take place? Why did it strike a church in Normandy?

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kristie, we've been trying to dig down. I mean, it is really a bizarre

situation, if you look, since Orlando and the last few weeks here in Europe, suddenly this space of attacks -- spate of attacks, and

what we're seeing you know, certainly digging down into what happened in Nice or Munich, other parts of Germany, and indeed in France, even Japan

last night, is that it is not all the same thing. Some of them are very, very troubled individuals, have histories of psychosis, depression, other

such things. some of them were violent and had engaged in domestic violence a lot. And

people have often seen, like law enforcement, the confluence between domestic violence and that kind of thing and acting it out in public.

Some appeared to be, you know, devotees of mass casualty and mass shooting events such as

school shootings, such as the right wing extremist Anders Breivik from Norway, that was the case of

the Munich shooter.

So, yesterday I asked the internationally known terrorism expert Peter Neumann what he made

of all this, particularly what he made of the claims by ISIS that these were their soldiers, and the claims by the killers that they were doing

this in the name of ISIS? Listen to what he told me?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETER NEUMANN, DIRECTOR, INTL. CENTRE FOR THE STUDY OF RADICALIZATION: ISIS has set out as a deliberate part of its strategy to empower these

loners. It is actually saying to all of these people, you can use our brand, you do not actually have to be linked to our movement, you do not

have to be part of the sort of command and control structure, you can go out, do something, as long as you record somewhere beforehand that you were

swearing allegiance to the caliph, we will recognize you as part of the group. And that's what we're seeing now.

And particularly concerning bit is that it seems to attract a lot of people that have psychological problems. And in many ways it seems to be a

strategy that is designed to appeal to people who are socially isolated, who have these issues, and who are then given a project

to latch on to.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON: On the other hand, also, people who are not given any project and there is no evidence that they have been instructed by ISIS or

that they have been in touch with ISIS or those kinds of accomplices. We understand that with the case in Nice, where they have not made those

formal links, we know that was the case in Munich, where the Germany- Iranian -- he was born in Germany, his parents were Iranian asylum seekers. And he, as I said, was a devotee of Anders Breivik, but he had been sick

for a long, long time in terms of depression, in terms of other episodes like that.

And similar, with the Nice attacker, who was born in Tunisia, and from the age of 16,had, according to medical professionals and his parents, had

had problems with self-esteem, and with psychosis and mental illness.

So, this is something that is beginning to glom onto this other terrorism phenomenon. And that's why this is so difficult for law

enforcement because it is not anything that is known. It's like asking police in America why can't you stop school shootings? Well, apart from

the fact that so many people are armed, you know, they've not been able to stop school shootings. And very similar to what's

happening here.

This is now way beyond the idea of organized terrorism, but it creates this fear. And it creates this paradigm that now everything is ISIS,

because of the last-minute videos or the last minute Allah akbar's, or the last minute public allegiances that some of the killers have made and then

the press of ISIS immediately going online and claiming these are soldiers of ISIS.

So it's really, really conflating this.

One other thing that I've been talking to experts about is that given these troubled individuals

are responsible, and have been declared responsible for so many of the recent attacks, medical professionals and psychiatric professionals believe

that there is a certain copycat syndrome, that those people with a propensity to violence or propensity to psychosis or mental

illness can be affected by all of what some are calling a environment, saturated by the media, violence,

that is -- you know, the rolling 24-hour coverage of this.

And one German MEP told us that this also, you know, helps those who naturally might want to commit suicide to then commit a public act of

suicide, such as Ansbach, take others with them and quote/unquote become a big man of history.

So this is all linked and tied in to now this metastasization of this mass killing spree and these mass casualty events.

[08:11:04] LU STOUT: An astute and terrifying analysis from you and from Peter Neumann

there describing how ISIS is lending its brand to devotees. It is effectively franchising terror, and each

time when an attack in the name of ISIS takes place, whether in Normandy or in Germany, or in Orlando or elsewhere, does the group strengthen, does the

recruitment drive go on while it demoralizes the local population?

AMANPOUR: Well, it's hard to know about recruitment because, again, this much of it is called opportunistic ISIS events. These are

opportunistic, parasitic, symbiotic, any such word you can use, that are being used by these -- by many of these people, not all of them, but many

of these people who have deep, deep, you know, mental illnesses, and are swayed in this way.

Because remember, for instance, the Nice attack, his own brother said that he wasn't even a Muslim. He ate pork. He drank wine. He danced. He

womanized. He was a wife beater.

The guy in Orlando who may have gone online and viewed videos of Anwar al-Awlaki, who as you know, was the al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula guy

there, the so-called spiritual leader, and the person who many terrorists got their inspiration from, but he also potentially, according to his wife

and others, may himself have been a repressed and closeted homosexual.

He goes to a gay bar and takes out his anger there. He also had a long history of domestic violence, a wife beater, according to his wife,

his former wife, and others who knew him.

So, again, these are troubled individuals, some of them have been under the police radar for

petty criminal events, not for jihadi or terrorism events.

Now some have been suspected of being radicalized, but most of these ones who we're talking about in the recent spate have not.

So again, it is an opportunistic sort of perfect storm that is now this deadly summer spree that we're seeing in Europe.

I mean we haven't even talked about the guy in Japan who knifed 19 people to death in a disabled home.

LU STOUT: Yeah. And that's a story we're going to get to next with our Ivan Watson who is standing by.

Christiane Amanpour, thank you for joining us. We really appreciate your insight on this killing spree that's been taking place, the spree of

terror in Europe. Thank you.

Now, let's go straight to Japan. A former worker is accused in the deadly rampage at a facility for the disabled. Authorities say that the

26-year-old suspect broke into the facility, and stabbed at least 19 people to death, and wounded two dozen more.

An hour later police say that he turned himself in, carrying a blood- stained knife and cloth.

Now Ivan Watson is in Sagamihara, Japan. He joins us now. And Ivan this was a ruthless and grisly attack. How did it happen and why?

IVAN WATSON, CNN INTERNATIOANL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it took place in the facility, the disabled home persons facility that I'm standing in front

of here before dawn this morning. And according to local authorities, it appears that the attacker, 26-year-old Satoshi Uematsu broke in through a

window and then kind of went through this building, which housed about 150 patients, people with a wide range of disabilities. And something out of a

horror movie, basically murdered them one by one, apparently with a knife and then turned himself in about an hour later to local police.

The profile that we're now getting of the suspected killer is somebody who apparently had mental problems. He had worked for years at this

facility behind me helping the disabled, taking care of them.

He delivered a letter to the chairman of the lower house of the Japanese parliament last February, and according to the public broadcaster

NHK, police telling NHK that that letter included an argument calling for euthanasia of the disabled in Japan and subsequently, police took him to a

mental hospital. That's just four months ago, where he was kept for some time,and then released in March,

after showing signs of improvement. And then some four months later, this terrible incident taking place in what can only be described as kind of a

sleepy town about an hour's drive outside of the capital Tokyo, surrounded by mountains, with a lot of hiking trails.

This, of course, coming as a shock not only to the local community but to Japan as a

whole, because this is being described as the deadliest massacre Japan has seen in generations, basically since World War II, with Japanese

authorities saying it has no link whatsoever to ISIS, or jihad, or apparently any political group, either -- Kristie.

LU STOUT: Yeah, mass killings like this very rare in Japan.

What happened there in the end, 19 people are dead. Ivan, what have you learned about the victims of this attack?

WATSON: Well, again, this is a disabled persons home. And the age ranges of the victims range from 18 all the way up to 70.

Now, 19 people killed, nine men, ten women. Of the wounded, 13 of them very seriously wounded. And when you talk to locals around here, I

talked to one teenage boy he said hey it was crazy in the predawn hours, the ambulances that they heard, the police sirens, but it wasn't until they

woke up again in this sleepy little town, that they found out from the news that the carnage of what had taken place in the building just behind me

here.

Now we've spoken with some of the friends and acquaintances of the man who then turned himself in, Satoshi Uematsu. They all described him as

somebody who was very outgoing, very clean-cut, somebody with a very positive outlook on life. But one of his very close friends says that his

personality started to change after he was 20 years old. Another woman who knew him from the local nightclub here saying that within the last year he

basically stopped going out at night and people were wondering what was happening to him.

He had worked at this facility up until last February. And that's about the time when he delivered this letter to the chairman of the lower

house of parliament reportedly calling for euthanasia of the -- and then four months later after his short incarcerated -- stay at a mental

hospital, he then went and apparently murdered, one by one, some of the very same people that he had been taking care of for years.

So a very disturbing situation, and one that is raising some very serious questions here across Japan today -- Kristie.

LU STOUT: Yeah, a brutal attack targeting the disabled there in Japan. Ivan Watson reporting for us. Thank you, Ivan.

Now, German officials say that the Syrian man who blew himself up in Ansbach pledged allegiance to the leader of ISIS.

Now, investigators say that the attacker left a video on his cell phone saying that he was engaging in an act of revenge against Germans.

Now, he had sought asylum in Germany but was rejected.

Now, our senior international correspondent Atika Shubert joins me live from Ansbach. And Atika, this ISIS connection very, very disturbing,

especially giving the breaking news out of Normandy. How did a Syrian asylum seeker in Germany turn into this ISIS aligned suicide bomber?

ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, this is what investigators are looking at. They're trying to figure out if there is any

sort of trace of communication back and forth with ISIS or any other, you know, network associated with ISIS. What they do know is that on his

mobile phone, they found a video in which he does swear allegiance, they believe, to

ISIS leader Abu Bakr al Baghdadi.

Now, he's wearing a scarf across his face so they can't be sure, but that's what they believe. Now just to give you a sense of how the attack

unfolded, I'm standing in front of where a music festival is playing, about 2,000 people were here. Now he actually tried to walk in to here, but a

security guard stopped him and turned him away.

Take a listen to what the security guard says.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I saw a person about 20 yards from me who was

watching me. He made several phone calls. He seemed hectic and nervous and kept looking left and right and behind himself to see if someone was

watching him. He then kept looking at me to see if maybe I would leave my post so he could get in. I turned my back to him for 20 or 30 seconds,

then looked back and he was gone. And then the explosion happened.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SHUBERT: Now I spoke to another eyewitness who actually sat at the very table where he was. He went from here after he was rejected from the

musical festival, sat at that table right there, was there for maybe just a few minutes, she said. She noticed him because he had his earphones on,

but it wasn't plugged in to his mobile phone, which he was constantly looking at. And then, according to her and other eyewitnesses, he stood

up, sort of leaned forward, grabbed for his bag and that's what he exploded.

So, what investigators are looking at now is what kinds of explosives did he use? Did he get any instructions on how to make this bomb? But

it's very concerning, because obviously to construct any kind of explosives you do need at least some training or some sort of

instruction. And this is what they're trying to piece together now, Kristie.

LU STOUT: Yeah, and we continue to get chilling details about that suicide bombing in Ansbach. And separately, Atika, we've been receiving

reports of shots being fired in Berlin? What do you know about the situation there?

SHUBERT: Yeah, we have been in touch with both the police and the hospital there. Here's what we know. There were some shots fired at a

clinic, at a hospital there. A doctor was very severely injured and a gunman then turned the gun on himself and shot himself and is

now declared dead.

What we understand from police, the situation is under control. It may have nothing to do with the series of attacks that we've seen in parts

of Europe. This may just be, you know, a random shooting, a criminal act. But obviously it contributes to the public feeling here that people aren't

safe and that feeling of fear.

LU STOUT: Yeah, absolutely. People are definitely on edge given just the killings that have

taken place this day and recently across Europe. Atika Shubert reporting for us live from Ansbach, Germany, thank you.

And we will continue to follow those stories out of France and Germany throughout the show and in the hours ahead here on CNN. But now let's turn

to another major story that we are covering this day: the Democratic national convention. You know that delegates in Philadelphia, they will

soon deliver the party's nomination to Hillary Clinton, that's going to happen

later on Tuesday. But day one was all about this appeal for unity. And among the voices looking to rein in dissent over the Clinton team ticket

one-time Clinton rival Bernie Sanders, as well as the first lady Michelle Obama.

Now, CNN senior political reporter Manu Raju takes this look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MICHELLE OBAMA, U.S. FIRST LADY: Don't let anyone ever tell you that this country isn't great.

MANU RAJU, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Michelle Obama, bringing down the house on night one of the democratic convention.

OBAMA: This right now is the greatest country on earth.

(APPLAUSE)

RAJU: The first lady leading a powerful list of headliners, including Hillary's Democratic rival, Senator Bernie Sanders.

BERNIE SANDERS, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Thank you.

(APPLAUSE)

RAJU: After a hard fought primary, Sanders welcomed to the amid deafening cheers in a three-minute standing ovation before delivering a

full-throated endorsement of his former rival in the most important political moment of the night.

SANDERS: Hillary Clinton will make an outstanding president, and I am proud to stand with her tonight.

RAJU: Sanders emphasizing the stakes of the election.

SANDERS: If you think you can sit it out, take a moment to think about the Supreme Court justices that Donald Trump would nominate.

RAJU: While comforting disappointed supporters, many getting emotional during his remarks.

SANDERS: We have begun a political revolution to transform America, and that revolution, our revolution, continues.

(APPLAUSE)

RAJU: The speeches aimed at uniting a party, still simmering over the primary fight. The division on display both inside and outside the

convention hall as Sanders delegates shouted in favor of their nominee and interrupted speeches with anti-Clinton boos despite efforts by Clinton and

Sanders official to quiet the outbursts. These protests drawing an unscripted rebuke from Sanders supporter and comedian, Sarah Silverman.

SARAH SILVERMAN, COMEDIAN: To the "Bernie or bust" people, you're being ridiculous.

RAJU: But the discord quieting as Michelle Obama took the stage.

OBAMA: In this election, I'm with her.

(APPLAUSE)

RAJU: The first lady, casting the presidential race as a decision about who would create the best future for America's children while

delivering resounding praise for her husband's former rival.

OBAMA: In this election, there is only one person who I trust with that responsibility. Only one person who I believe is truly qualified to be

president of the United States, and that is our friend, Hillary Clinton.

RAJU: Mrs. Obama, choking up while touching on the historical significance of Clinton's nomination.

[08:25:11] OBAMA: Because of Hillary Clinton, my daughters and all our sons and daughters now take for granted that a woman can be president of

the United States.

RAJU: In highlighting the challenges overcome throughout history that brought her to the stage.

OBAMA: Generations of people who felt the lash of bondage, the shame of servitude, the sting of segregation, but who kept on striving and hoping

and doing what needed to be done so that today I wake up every morning in a house that was built by slaves.

RAJU: The first lady making an unusual foray into partisan politics to knock Donald Trump without mentioning him by name.

OBAMA: The issue the president faces are not black and white and cannot be boiled down to 140 characters.

When you have the nuclear codes at your fingertips and the military in your command, you can't make snap decisions. You can't have a thin skin or

a tendency to lash out.

RAJU: Candidly talking about the lessons she has tried to instill in her daughters.

OBAMA: We urge them to ignore those who question their father's citizenship or faith.

RAJU: And criticizing Trump's rhetoric.

OBAMA: We insist that the hateful language they hear from public figures does not represent the true spirit of this country. Our motto is

when they go low, we go high.

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LU STOUT: That was CNN's Manu Raju reporting.

And we will go back to our top story, our breaking news after the break, that deadly terror attack on a church in France.

Also ahead right here on News Stream, there was growing anger over China's deadly floods. Survivors want answers from government officials,

accusing them of ignoring the warning signs until it was far too late.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(HEADLINES)

[08:30:55] LU STOUT: Now back to our top story now, the terror attack in France this day. President Francois Hollande spoke from the site of the

attack about an hour ago. Here is what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FRANCOIS HOLLANDE, PRESIDENT OF FRANCE (through translator): The cowardly attack of the priest by two terrorists in the name of Daesh. I

met the families. But I also want to speak to people who were taken hostage to express the pain, the grief, and also the will to understand

what has happened.

Through our coming here we've expressed our support for security forces, the police, who intervened extremely fast to avoid even more

victims of those who were taken hostage.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LU STOUT: And that was french President Francois Hollande speaking from the scene of that terror attack that took place earlier today in

Normandy. We'll have much more on that story in the minutes ahead right here on CNN.

Now northern China has been drowning in floodwaters for over a week now. This natural disaster is one of the worst to hit the region in years

with at least 164 people dead, and many, many people missing. And now survivors, they want answers from government officials, accusing them of

ignoring weather warnings until it was too late.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LU STOUT: The walls of water are unrelenting, the torrents deadly. Northern China is grappling with one of the worst flooding disasters in

years.

The death toll has risen steadily over the past week. More than 100 people are still

missing and the heavy rain is tearing cities apart with countless homes collapsing.

Now, amid the worsening disaster, public anger is growing.

A common theme among survivors, the government warning was too little, too late. By the time many of the half a million residents were evacuated,

the floodwaters had peaked.

Angry at the government's handling of the crisis, citizens have voiced their frustration online with one saying "no matter how upset the citizens

are, they will never take any responsibility. They will always let their employees be the scapegoats."

Another writes this, "many people died. It's not like officials cried or being dismissed can solve the issue. They should face criminal

consequences."

Now, the flooding disaster is inflicting a political toll of sorts. China's state-run news agency

reports five officials from the worst-hit province of Hubei are now suspended. They face investigation, accused of dereliction of duty.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LU STOUT: Now, let's bring in our meteorologist Chad Myers for more on this situation in China. And Chad, the flooding there is deadly, it's

relentless. When will the conditions improve?

CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: They get better today. But I think it's, it's, it's safe to say, and it's fair to say, Kristie, that some

areas have picked up a month's worth of rain in 24 hours. And it scenes like this, where things have washed down from the street, down to the shops

below, rainfall in to Beijing, rainfall in other places that don't expect a lot of rain until August.

Now July and August are the rainy season, that's just the way it happens. Plus, there always can be a tropical system coming onshore that

really worsens everything. But for now, these are just afternoon showers that -- sometimes they just don't move. And if they sit over a city, a

city that's paved. You know you have all this concrete, all this asphalt, all these parking lots, that doesn't soak in, that runs off and that is the

problem when you build more and more things on to places where it rains.

We're doing that all over the globe, not just China -- in the U.S., in Canada, in South America, you build bigger cities and pave more areas

you're going to get worse flooding because the water can't soak in.

Now we're watching this little tropical depression here coming across, coming across Hainan -- especially over Hanoi, and should get to the east

of where the rainfall has moved and been so heavy for awhile and then kind of move itself away. It's not going to be a major event here.

We don't know the rain up here, that's where it's been exacerbated with the flooding there if we got more rainfall on top of where we've even

so much rain already.

So, yes it's raining, yes it's going to continue to terrain. People have to take care of themselves, and understand that when it rains, on a

city, it can always flood. But those were some really disturbing pictures I just saw that you had in your piece, Kristie. Those people really had no

idea it was coming, at least some of them.

[11:35:37] LU STOUT: Yeah, yeah. There's got to be a better warning system in place there. Chad Myers, we thank you for your reporting. Until

next time take care.

Now let's go back to our top story now, that deadly terror attack on that church in France. Jim Bittermann joins us now again from Paris with

the latest. And Jim, another just horrendous terror attack in France. Today's target, a church in Normandy.

BITTERMANN: Exactly. A church on a Tuesday morning, morning mass, very few people were there, actually. The priest and four other people

were there, taken hostage by these two assailants who broke in. One person managed to get away and alert the authorities, and because of a new

rearrangement of SWAT teams across the country, the SWAT team, the SWAT team which is based in Rouen which is a major town about, probably 15, 20

minutes away from this church, were able to get there almost immediately. And they confronted the assailant as -- we understand, as they came out of

the church and shot them both dead.

When they went inside, they found the body of the priest, as well as another of the hostages, who was very gravely injured but they were able to

save three of the hostages. Now this has been claimed by the ISIS news service, such as it is, Akmar (ph), and also the assailants have been

identified as Daesh, which is the French way of saying ISIS by President Hollande

himself, who said that these two were operatives of Daesh and were responsible for this act.

And in fact one of the things that's pretty disturbing coming out of this in the last hour or so is that police source has confirmed that one of

these assailants was known to the police, he had tried to go to Syria last year. He was stopped by Turkish authorities, sent back to France, and was

put in prison and then got out of prison, and was apparently forced to wear an electronic bracelet, but somehow the police lost track of him, and he

was able to carry out the attack this morning -- Kristie.

LU STOUT: Yeah, very disturbing new detail there that one of the attackers was previously under police surveillance, but somehow security

officials lost track of him.

Jim Bittermann, thank you very much indeed for your reporting. And we will stay on this story. Let's get some analysis here. We want to bring in

the managing director of the London-based counter extremism think tank Quilliam. And he joins us now live from our London bureau.

Haras, thank you so much for joining us here. You know this pattern is just tragically familiar. There is an attack. And then the attacker

pledges allegiance to ISIS. But to clarify, these attackers, they're not sent by ISIS, they're just committing murder in the name of the group,

right?

HARAS RAFIQ, MANAGING DIRECTOR, QUILLIAM FOUNDATION: Well, there is a significance here. And the significance is that we have been saying for

months now, that there is a global jihadist insurgency. And this is what a global jihadist insurgency looks like. We've seen over the last few days

in Germany and in Europe nearly an attack every single day.

And what we have are people who are radicalized remotely, remote radicalization, and these people then are becoming remotely operationalized

so that they are actually carrying out these attacks, not necessarily directly sent by ISIS, but they are actually doing it in the name of ISIS.

They're inspired by ISIS.

In fact, one of these guys tried to join them, and was sent back, another person is local to the

area. And this attack actually, today, frightens me, as somebody who's been doing this particular job now for about 12 years, more so than the Charlie

Hebdo attacks.

And the reason why it frightens me more is that, I remember when the Mumbai attacks happened in India, we said at the time that this is an

operational and tactical shift for jihadists, because instead of blowing themselves up, they're now shooting people on the streets.

Well today, what these guys have done is they've carried out the attack on that people of ISIS and al Qaeda are talking about now for

awhile. And when they say Rome, they're actually talking about Christianity.

And what they've done is they fed into hundreds of years of history, which will resonate with people and it's opened the doors for them to

attack anew, to select a new type of target if you like. And the other danger for me is, that because of this history, because of this attack on a

house of god, what this potentially could do is radicalize people from both sides of the spectrum.

People who are Islamists already justifying more attacks on churches, certainly in the west, and other soft targets, but more so people also who

are non-Muslims think, you know what, we've had enough now and it's all Muslims. When in fact it isn't all Muslims, it's the Islamists.

LU STOUT: ISIS wants to create chaos and fear, it wants to separate and polarize religious communities. It seems to be succeeding in doing

just that with this spate of attacks in Europe. So how should governments respond?

RAFIQ: OK. Well first of all, mainland Europe has been quite a few years behind us here in the UK. We've had a number of strategies. And

we've been very lucky, as well as carrying out good strategies such as prevent containing and stopping terrorist attacks, but also getting to the

heart of preventing them in the first place.

What Europe hasn't had is, until recently -- mainland Europe -- deradicalization programs. One of these guys was known to authorities. He

went to prison, he was released from prison. He was wearing a tag, but there was no deradicalization and rehabilitation program.

What mainland Europe and the west needs to move away from is not just containing people who might carry out terrorist attacks, but preventing

them in the first place through civil society. You know it's like fascism and communism and racism, these things exist in our society. And civil

society is able to take them on before they become criminal.

Once they become criminal, government and authorities need to arrest people, take them through the due process. But before then, civil society,

Muslims and non-Muslims, need to wake up, and work together.

You know, there are people you know on the far left, the regressive left, who say this has nothing to do with Islam. There are people on the

far right that say this is all of Islam and all Muslims. The people in the middle, that's me, ordinary people, non-Muslims and Muslims, need to take

control of this narrative and not let groups like ISIS, al Qaeda, Muslim Brotherhood, Jamaat Islami (ph)

divide us, and let's keep that sense of ground and tackle these extremes.

LU STOUT: President Francois Hollande from the scene of this terror attack in Normandy, he said that France needs to fight the war against

ISIS, quote, by all means. How do you interpret that? What should be his next move?

RAFIQ: OK. First of all there are two parts to taking on the war against ISIS. There is the international, what's happening in the region

of Iraq and Syria. Now, in the region, ISIS no longer is existing as a state. They've lost in Iraq something like 40 percent of the land that

they captured and in Syria maybe 10 percent to 15 percent so they are shrinking in size.

But what's actually growing is the influence, and it's not just ISIS. We have to remember, ISIS and al Qaeda, and these kind of groups, did not

inspire extremism, extremism inspired them. So on the sort of the home front, we need to make sure that on the sharp end, we have to protect, the

president of France and people in Europe, and the west and around the world, have to protect their citizens. We need better, more effective

working between agencies.

Now, if you look at the attacks in Brussels, for example, that happened recently,again, one of

the people there was deported by Turkey, sent back to Belgium, and a local authority in Brussels didn't even know who he was. They weren't even aware

of it.

We need better, more effective working and cooperation between authorities in Europe, and

internationally around the world.

Secondly, we need on that sharper end, we need de-radicalization, rehabilitation programs. And it's not just from a religious perspective,

they need to be from an intellectual, ideological, social, emotional and spiritual perspective, de-radicalization and rehabilitation programs that

people that we know that are identified as being potential terrorists.

But on the softer end, civil society needs to be mobilized. And I think what President Hollande

is talking about is hopefully taking the, you know, the fight to these jihadists, these terrorists, making sure that, you know, that they're being

watched better, they're being deradicalized, but more than that mobilize civil society.

One thing you mustn't do, he must not react in a way that makes it more -- we don't need more legislation. There is enough legislation in

place in Europe. He has enough legislation. But he also has to recognize that authorities and agencies cannot monitor every single person that's

been identified. You know it takes on average 20 to 25 people to monitor one person 24/7, 365 days a year. It's not possible.

More de-radicalization, more rehabilitation, but more than that better prevention is what's needed. And I hope that the president of

France will learn from what we're doing here in the UK.

[08:45:35] LU STOUT: Removing the seductive appeal of ISIS, better education, rehabilitation, going after the threat itself, but not at the

expense of civil liberties.

Haras Rafiq, thank you very much indeed for joining us on the program with your suggestions on next steps after the latest terror attack in the

name of ISIS in France. Thank you.

And that is News Stream. I'm Kristie Lu Stout. And CNN will continue to follow developments out of France in the hours ahead.

END