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New Questions Raised Regarding Clinton Foundation; Rudy Giuliani Continues to Support Trump. Aired 9-10p ET.>

Aired August 11, 2016 - 21:00   ET



[21:00:42] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again. Just ahead this hour, a remarkable and hard-hitting conversation with Donald Trump supporter, Rudy Giuliani.

We begin, though, with two questions for the Clinton campaign. Was it a conflict of interest and was it criminal? Both centering squarely on Hillary Clinton's time at the State Department and the overlap during her tenure with the Clinton Foundation.

The foundation, we should point out, has been widely praised for the work it does on global health and other world problems. That's not the issue. What is, though, is whether any ethical or legal lines were crossed at the time and tonight, there are new developments on both questions, new details of a battle between the FBI and Justice Department over whether to launch a criminal investigation and new details of a trip, a senior State Department staffer took on behalf of the Clinton Foundation.

Senior Investigative Correspondent Drew Griffin, reports.


DREW GRIFFIN, CNN SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: On June 19th, 2012, Cheryl Mills, then the chief of staff for Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, boarded in Amtrak Acela train in Washington's Union station bound for New York. For the last seven months, Senate investigators have been trying to find out what Mills was up to, and for seven months, the U.S. Department of State has refused to answer. Now CNN has learned a potential reason why. Cheryl mills, then a U.S. government employee, and Secretary of State Clinton's chief of staff, was in New York working on behalf of the Clinton Foundation. A source close to the situation confirms to CNN, Mills was interviewing two potential candidates to lead the Clinton Foundation. Mills would interview top level executives at Walmart and the drug company Pfizer. Both companies, huge donors to the Clinton Foundation and both have worked with the Clinton Global Initiative.

Was Mills' role in violation of government ethics rules? Did she have permission from the U.S. Department of State? Did state even know the trip was taking place? CNN has asked the U.S. State Department all of these questions. This was the response, "Federal employees are permitted to engage in outside personal activities, within the scope of the federal ethics rules." A state spokesperson tells CNN, "All Federal employees are subject to federal ethics laws and regulations, including rules pertaining to conflicts of interest." The vague response raises more questions that are just not being answered, not to CNN, but worse, says one watchdog group, not to the Republican-led Senate Judiciary Committee, which has a right to know.

SCOTT AMEY, PROJECT ON GOVERNMENT OVERSIGHT: Congress has a rightful right to ask for any information that it wants to from the executive branch of government to keep track of them and the government should be turning that information over, and when you have a breakdown in that system, we have a breakdown in our democracy.

GRIFFIN: It's easy to understand why Cheryl Mills was trusted with helping find the next director of the Clinton Foundation. Her relationships with the Clintons goes back decades.

CHERYL MILLS, FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF TO SECRETARY OF STATE HILLARY CLINTON: I'm honored to be here today on behalf of the president.

GRIFFIN: As Bill Clinton's deputy White House Counsel, she defended the then president during impeachment proceedings. In 2008, when Hillary Clinton was running for president, Mills was her senior legal campaign advisor.


GRIFFIN: And when Hillary Clinton became Secretary of State, Mills left the board of the Clinton Foundation and became Hillary Clinton's chief of staff. The secrecy about the New York trip, the dual roles played by trusted assistants, the mixing of business between state, the Clinton Foundation and its donors, all play into a central theme of Donald Trump's campaign. That politicians like the Clintons use government to benefit themselves.

DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: These are crooked people. They have been crooked from the beginning. You look at that foundation, it's pure theft and pure crookedness.

GRIFFIN: Cheryl Mills' attorney says her client was simply doing volunteer work for a charitable foundation. She was not paid. The Clinton Foundation also says Mills was not a paid employee. Late today, Clinton campaign spokesman, Brian Fallon sent this statement, "Cheryl volunteered her personal time to a charitable organization, as she has to other charities. Cheryl paid for her travel to New York City personally and it was crystal clear to all involved that this had nothing to do with her official duties. The idea that this poses a conflict of interest is absurd."


[21:05:01] BERMAN: All right, Drew Griffin joins us now. And Drew, you know, there is illegal and there's looks bad. Is anyone suggesting that this was illegal? GRIFFIN: Not illegal, John, looks bad, maybe. Certainly adds to questions about the appearance of a conflict of interest. We have no reason to believe any donations were solicited at these interviews, no deals made. It was a straight interview for possible future directors of the Clinton Foundation, but certainly, Cheryl Mills is one of Hillary Clinton's closest aides at the State Department, should have known co-mingling these duties between state and the Clinton Foundation could raise suspicions.

BERMAN: And Drew, CNN is also learning that FBI agents months ago had suspicions that there may have been criminal activity involved with the Clinton Foundation, but again, no investigation?

GRIFFIN: Correct. A U.S. official says FBI and top Department of Justice officials met several months ago to discuss opening, John, a corruption case into the Clinton Foundation. At the time, three different Department of Justice field officers were in agreement that that investigation should be launched, but according to an official, it involved a bank that was reporting suspicious activity from a foreigner who had donated to the Clinton Foundation, the Department of Justice looked at it, according to this official, decided it seemed more political than substantive and did not pursue the case due to insufficient evidence. John.

BERMAN: All right, Drew Griffin, thanks so much. Let's bring back some of our panel members, Andre Bauer, David Brock, Maggie Haberman.

David, I want to start with you here. You know that the trust issue is seen as one of Hillary Clinton's big weaknesses. You know, 69 percent of voters say they do not trust Hillary Clinton right now. Drew was just saying at this point, no one's suggesting what Cheryl Mills did was illegal, but given the trust issues at play here and there had been at play for years here, shouldn't someone have known that co-mingling these duties would have raised questions?

DAVID BROCK, FOUNDER OF PRO-HILLARY SUPER PAC: No, I don't think so. I mean, I don't think anything here that was done was inappropriate, was wrong. I think it's a normal course of business. Cheryl Mills was on the board of this foundation. She voluntarily took a day off, came up here, sat in on an interview and did that on her own dime.

The other two e-mails that come to light yesterday involved a meeting that was supposed to have been set up for a donor to CGI, turns out the meeting didn't even happen. Not that there would have been anything wrong with the meeting. He was offering insight into the Lebanese political situation. It would have nothing to do with a business deal.

So, there's no business dealing here. There's no State Department action being asked for. There's no trading of money for favors at all. So, I think we're just really missing the context here, which is the Republicans don't want to give up on this issue. There's been -- there's -- the group that is responsible for the release of some of these e-mails in these past few days has been suing the Clintons for 20 years for all sorts of bogus ...

BERMAN: That's true. It's doesn't mean that the e-mails aren't the e-mails and was on ...

BROCK: I think it's important just to say, I mean, I'm answering the question substantively, but I do think there's been a campaign of legal terrorism by this group against the Clintons for 20 years. The Republicans on the hill clearly still don't want to let go of this. It's all they have because Donald Trump has nothing to offer.

And on top of it, for Donald Trump to be out there, I mean, he's really not the right messenger for this, I don't think. This is somebody who has misled the press about his own charitable activities, won't release his tax returns. The Clinton Foundation has done more for people in one day than Donald Trump has done his whole life.

BERMAN: We have plenty of questions about Donald Trump's tax returns, but again, a lot of this is about what's on the e-mails and what Drew Griffin's reporting, which is from the campaign, as from Drew Griffin's reporting about Cheryl Mills here.

And Maggie, you know, Jake Tapper was talking today about conversations he had with the Obama administration about those early days when Hillary Clinton was coming on as secretary of state and what the Obama administration said is, you know, there were going to be scrupulous checks here to make sure that there was no conflict, no overlap here. And again, the idea is, at a minimum, are these lines blurry?

MAGGIE HABERMAN, N.Y. TIMES PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN CORRESPONDENT: Look, I would need to re-read the memorandum of understanding that they signed to know specifically what it covered and should have earlier. So, I'm not clear that this actually violated the spirit of anything or even the declaration of anything, but you are correct, and I was thinking about this just now, this did speak to the sort of broader concerns the Obama administration had, not just about the fact that the Clintons have been political adversaries, but also that, you know, they came with a certain set of circumstances and their own background.

Look, you're dealing with a potential president who's married to a former president who was a secretary of state, where they have this large charitable organization that also does employ people who are very close to them and then also does, you know, charitable works. It is -- there is no map for this. But the argument of their critics is you do everything you can to avoid even the appearance of and this is where this ends up becoming an issue. David, I think has a point though where Donald Trump is -- Republicans are arguing that he's not a great messenger for this issue, less because of the transparency piece and more because he isn't even focusing on it.

[21:10:05] BROCK: Right.

HABERMAN: He's overshadowing it with other stuff.

BERMAN: What about that, Andre? You know, is Donald Trump or should Donald Trump be focusing on this and insofar as he does talk about it, is he talking about it, you know, in the right way? And it's funny that the Clinton Foundation, which is largely a charitable organization, the Clinton Global Initiative is being demonized in and of itself.

ANDRE BAUER, TRUMP SUPPORTER: Oh, this is a missed opportunity. Look, Hillary Clinton talks about job creation. The only job she's created is lawyers for the past 40 years. She's been in court more than Perry Mason. I mean, it's just a continual story after story, year after year, that there is no line they are not willing to cross and they have so many friends in government that they get a pass on everything. Anybody else would have been in jail by now. And it's not like it's this one story. It is year after year, Travelgate, Whitewater. I mean, you can go through the litany of years of this stuff just following where they looked out for their friends, they got them government contracts, I mean, it's just one after the other. And we continue to see it happening. And this story isn't even pushed by Republicans. The news dug this up.

BERMAN: Well, Judicial Watch is a conservative group and loves digging this stuff up. But, I take your point there. And Andre, like David and you talk about, you know, the history there during the break. I'm sure you'll have a lot to discuss. Andre, David, Maggie, thanks so much.

Next up, Rudy Giuliani speaking out and you'll want to hear what he's saying about Donald Trump's controversial claim, which he repeated yet again tonight, that President Obama is, "the founder of ISIS."


[21:15:20] BERMAN: He has been called America's mayor and a lot of New Yorkers in the wake of September 11th were very proud to call him their own. Since then, Rudy Giuliani has run for president and these days is a vocal Donald Trump supporter, which has made him more controversial than he was during his presidential run and much more controversial than he was back when he helped everyone get through the incredible trying time for the city and this country. This morning, he sat down with "NEW DAY'S" Chris Cuomo to defend Donald Trump and what Donald Trump has been saying. It's quite a conversation. This is part one.


CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: Former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani, an obvious Trump supporter. Donald Trump just gave an interview to CNBC where he touched on some of his feelings about ISIS and the connections to President Obama and Hillary Clinton.


CUOMO: Here's what he said.

TRUMP: He was the founder, absolutely the founder. In fact, he gets the -- in sports they have awards. He gets the most valuable player award. Him and Hillary. I mean, she gets it, too. I give them co- founder if you really looked at the speech, I think you probably did. But him and Hillary get the most valuable player award, having to do with Iraq and having to do with the ISIS situation, or as he would call it, ISIL. He calls it ISIL because nobody else does, and probably wants to bother people by using a different term and whether it's more accurate or not.

CUOMO: With all the legitimate angles of attack on the current state of play with ISIS in the United States ...


CUOMO: ... why go the route of saying that President Barack Obama -- Hussein Obama, as Trump likes to remind people, founded ISIS? He didn't found ISIS. Then he says ISIS honors Obama. ISIS doesn't honor Obama. Why say those things?

GIULIANI: Well, first of all, I think what he's saying there is legitimate political commentary. Legitimate political ...

CUOMO: But it's not true.

GIULIANI: Well, it is true in the sense that, before Obama, ISIS was a almost unknown small, little organization. He even called it the JV. Totally wrong. And here's why it happened. Because he withdrew the troops from Iraq. General Petraeus had secured the eastern part of Iraq. It wasn't in turmoil, it wasn't in revolution, and it wasn't breeding terrorists. He had gotten the support of the Sunni tribes. When we pulled out and the Obama administration and our secretary of state were unable to get a security of forces agreement for our troops, that's when ISIS formed.

CUOMO: That's a legitimate argument to make. But he doesn't make that argument. He says the guy's a founder.

GIULIANI: That's what he means by it.

CUOMO: He doesn't make a legitimate argument about the Second Amendment. He says, you know, "oh, maybe you guys can go and do something." He makes a joke that winds up becoming a story.

GIULIANI: It wasn't a joke. I was with him, it wasn't a joke. He ...

CUOMO: Well you don't -- you're not saying he had serious intentions about encouraging "Second Amendment people" to do something bad.

GIULIANI: Of course not. Of course not. No more than Hillary Clinton had eight years ago when she said she was going to stay in the race, because remember, Kennedy was assassinated.

CUOMO: You know what she did after she said that? She apologized.

GIULIANI: Well, because she was wrong.

CUOMO: Why didn't he apologize?

GIULIANI: Because he wasn't wrong.

CUOMO: How was he not wrong? To encourage people with the Second Amendment, which means they have guns, that maybe you can do something? GIULIANI: Chris. Chris, Chris, Chris, Chris. He didn't encourage them to do that. He was saying, "don't vote for her." It's the Clinton spin machine ...

CUOMO: No. Here's why it isn't.

GIULIANI: That interpretation of it ...

CUOMO: I'm not part of the "Clinton spin machine" and you know that.

GIULIANI: But you accepted it. You're accepting it.

CUOMO: No, here's what I accept, the context I accept. He didn't say, "during the election." He says, "if she picks the judges, it's over. You can't do anything. Well, maybe you can." That's after she's elected. You only pick judges if you're president. That's not about voting.

GIULIANI: OK, let's play lawyer and play language interpretation. Well, maybe you can, it can be a reflection on the thought you had before, which is, "well, maybe" ...

CUOMO: Come on. You know what the problem is. Why have to explain what comes out of the man's mouth every two seconds?

GIULIANI: I am -- I'm going to tell you, because you don't give him a fair shot. You take his words and you parse them and you take them apart. I was on the plane with him when they called him and they said to him, "they are accusing you of saying kill Hillary Clinton." He said, "What? I didn't say that." What I said was ...

CUOMO: He didn't say that. You're right. I never said he did.

GIULIANI: He said, "I said, don't vote for her."

CUOMO: He said something clumsy that was open to misinterpretation.

GIULIANI: If you want to misinterpret it. But, on the other hand ...

CUOMO: The guy behind him didn't get the message ...

GIULIANI: The guy behind him had actually stroked his chin even before he said it. I went and looked at the tape five times.

CUOMO: I looked at it too, he also looks at his wife and he makes a face where he goes, "Oh, can you believe he said that?"

GIULIANI: Yeah, yeah. How about he could have said -- you don't know what he said. How about he said, "Oh, wow, we can go vote." That is what Donald Trump meant.

CUOMO: He did not say that. He did an interview on CNN yesterday where he said, "I can't believe he said it." Let's play what Trump said for everybody else. Because, you're right, it shouldn't be a legal argument between us, you're going to win every time. Here's what Trump said. GIULIANI: It's really outrageous ...

[21:20:00] TRUMP: Hillary wants to abolish, essentially abolish, the Second Amendment. By the way, and if she gets to pick -- if she gets to pick her judges, nothing you can do, folks. Although the Second Amendment people maybe there is, I don't know.

GIULIANI: "Although the Second Amendment people, maybe there is," could mean, "you can vote against her." That is exactly what he meant. That is exactly what he meant.

CUOMO: It was open to interpretation.

GIULIANI: If you want to accept the Hillary Clinton -- the first people that put it out, because we got it from them, the first people that put it out, I got a call on the phone, was from the Hillary Clinton spin machine, and then all of you jumped on it, and it was the biggest story yesterday.

CUOMO: First of all, I don't think that he was inciting violence, but its part of a pattern. But he does this all the time.

GIULIANI: It's part of your pattern.


GIULIANI: It's the press' pattern.

CUOMO: I don't control what comes out of his mouth.


CUOMO: The man has blacklisted me. He won't come on this show because he doesn't like answering questions about what he says.

GIULIANI: Chris, Chris, Chris, it's a pattern of the press exaggerating what he says. And yesterday we get e-mails that demonstrate what I've been saying for four months, that the Clinton Foundation is a fraud. The Clinton Foundation, to me, is a racketeering enterprise, and the State Department was a pay for play organization.

CUOMO: The 44 e-mails that came out, we have covered here just as much as anything else. We're covering it. It doesn't mean this didn't happen.

GIULIANI: So why isn't she being investigated? Be Blasio's being investigated in New York City ...

CUOMO: Right.

GIULIANI: ...for pay for play.

CUOMO: I don't control who's investigated. I don't control who's investigated. My job is to cover it.

GIULIANI: But we're covering for the third day ...

CUOMO: But he says, "the media's doing this to me. The media's rigged." Do you think my coverage is rigged?

GIULIANI: No, I don't think yours is, but I think a lot of coverage is rigged.

CUOMO: How is it rigged? This comes out of his mouth and you have to apologize for it.

GIULIANI: I have not apologized. I said he's ...

CUOMO: You come here and explain it, well, could have meant this, he could have meant that.

GIULIANI: No, I didn't say he could have meant that. I'm telling you, he didn't say words of violence.

CUOMO: He didn't say go out and vote either, did he?

GIULIANI: No. OK, but you say things in a lot of different ways in politics. You talk, you know, for 100 hours, so you say things in a lot of ways. I was a lawyer, I argued in court. Sometimes when I wanted to make a point, I might say somebody is the founder of something, when the guy is the person who helped to enable it.

CUOMO: You had trouble with the media when you were mayor, sometimes you kept people out of press conferences. You never said the things that he does you've never said things in front of a crowd that had them start chanting, lock them up, about the media. Calling reporters liars, when he knows it's not true.

GIULIANI: Well, for which he steps back and says, "Beat her." Then at the convention ...

CUOMO: Yeah, that's the only time. Katy Tur, from NBC, had to be escorted to her car by secret service because the crowd turned on her because he pointed at her and said, "She's a liar, remember that. She's a liar." President of the United States?

GIULIANI: Look, the coverage is not fair. If you can't see that, I can't help you see it.

CUOMO: No politician likes the media. No politician says the media is fair to them. That's how you know you're doing your job.

GIULIANI: Nobody brought up Hillary's comments about Bobby Kennedy. Nobody ...

CUOMO: What are you talking about? It's all over the place. It's all over the place.

GIULIANI: No, isn't all over the place. Not three days, front page of the newspaper. The front page of the "Times" yesterday didn't have the pay for play scandal. The front pages at "The New York Times" had three articles on Donald Trump, all negative, and nothing about pay for play.

CUOMO: Every outlet is different. I don't work for "The New York Times". We have been covering it consistently.

GIULIANI: And "New York Times" failed to point out in any kind of highlighted way the fact that a terrorist, and the father of a terrorist, was sitting behind Hillary Clinton, and they failed to ask the question, "What attracted him to her. What attracted that Taliban supporter" ...

CUOMO: What attracted Mark Foley to Donald Trump?

GIULIANI: Well I don't know, but saying -- and lots of question were asked about that.

CUOMO: But I'm saying...

GIULIANI: ...lots of the questions were asked about that.

CUOMO: Not as many as were asked about the Orlando father.

GIULIANI: He was asked about Duke, about David Duke who he's never met.

CUOMO: You don't think that's a legitimate question?

GIULIANI: Hillary hasn't been asked about the father yet. Hillary doesn't ...

CUOMO: That's not true. They've been all over the campaign asking.

GIULIANI: Her answer was thank you. Her answer was thank you.

CUOMO: No, you just said -- Rudy, you just said she hasn't been asked. The answer is, that's wrong. She has been asked. You know what I'm saying? I understand why you support him. I get it. But you apologize and defend for him.

GIULIANI: I am not apologizing - Chris ...

CUOMO: And I think it's putting you in an awkward situation.

GIULIANI: Not for me.

CUOMO: You're right, you don't apologize. Maybe you should, that would just make it go away. Might be more honorable thing to do.

GIULIANI: It wouldn't be the more honorable thing for me to lie. What he meant was ...

CUOMO: Well, if you're saying it's on the media, that's not lying, but it's also not accurate, right? I mean, you know, I'm not saying, it's lying ...


CUOMO: ... but it's wrong.

GIULIANI: The media took words that were not violent word, and the media interpreted them as violent words. Those words are not violent words.

CUOMO: Not just the media, other people interpreted them that way and why? Because of the pattern. Because of the pattern. This is what the man does. He says things that are either casual or hyperbolic to impress the crowd...

GIULIANI: OK. Well, Hillary Clinton ...

CUOMO: ... and then they go too far, and he refuses to apologize and blames the media. It's happened at least 10 times that I can name right of the top of my head.

[21:25:01] GIULIANI: Hillary Clinton is trying to paint a demonic picture of Donald Trump, because on the record she can't get elected because she was engaged in significant criminal activity. The e- mails, we know about, I think that decision was wrong ...

CUOMO: She is beating him in the polls, some would suggest exactly because of this behavior. That he should be winning right now, based on the mood of the country, but for his own temperament and actions of what comes out of his mouth.

GIULIANI: I have to tell you, whatever the past was with Donald Trump and whatever he said in the past, that day, what he was talking about was voting and what the Clinton machine and the media turned it into was violence. He didn't say words of violence.

CUOMO: True. You know what you would have said if I asked you this question. If I said to you, you know what the suggestion is that you thought is. You know what you would have said? "God forbid, I would never suggest that to people. I don't want anybody to do anything violent to anyone, let alone Hillary Clinton. I don't want anybody to believe that. I didn't mean it. I'm sorry if someone took it that way. Let's move on." That's what you would say. Why doesn't he say that?

GIULIANI: People are different. They can say different things. He said he told the truth.

CUOMO: But it comes across like he enjoys or he thinks he benefits from the anger.

GIULIANI: He wasn't trying to create anger. In one way he was. He was trying to create a feeling among Second Amendment people, you got to keep her out of office, because if she puts a justice on the court, they reverse Heller, the private right to bear arms are taken away.

CUOMO: She's actually said she doesn't want to reverse Heller. And? What?

GIULIANI: I believe that just as much as I believe she was in favor of the XL Pipeline, and now she's against the XL Pipeline. If she's -- I would bet you anything you want that she puts a Supreme Court justice on there.

CUOMO: He said she wants to abolish the Second Amendment. We both know that is impossible.

GIULIANI: What he means by that is, she wants to interpret it in a way that abolishes it.

CUOMO: So, is this -- if he wins, if he becomes president of the United States, is that going to be your position, is that he goes out, he'll say things, and then you'll come on and say what he actually meant? Well, isn't that part of the job, knowing how to use language in a way that doesn't confuse everybody?

GIULIANI: That doesn't confuse anyone. She will effectively abolish the Second Amendment. If you reverse Heller, you effectively abolish the Second Amendment.

CUOMO: She said she doesn't think Heller should be reversed.

GIULIANI: And I think if anybody believes that, I told you, they believe that she legitimately changed her mind over the XL Pipeline.

CUOMO: But what does one have to do with the other?

GIULIANI: What it has to do with it is, that nobody covers her in the same way that he is covered. Her flip-flop on the XL Pipeline got one story, one time, not three days of coverage.

CUOMO: Who says more things that confound reason, Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton?

GIULIANI: Hillary Clinton.

CUOMO: On a regular basis?

GIULIANI: On a regular basis.

CUOMO: Tapes come out of the man obviously playing his own P.R. machine. He says, "It's not me." The Star of David thing comes out, he says it's a sheriff's star. Why not just own things, say they're a mistake, move on, move on.

GIULIANI: Some things he has said were a mistake.

CUOMO: What? What?

GIULIANI: Other things...

CUOMO: One thing -- tell me one thing he's apologized for.

GIULIANI: He said that he -- he has said that it was a mistake, the things that he said about John McCain. He said that he -- said that -- he said that he -- John McCain was a hero, he should have acknowledged that, he should have acknowledged his heroism and his public service. He did it five months ago, he did it two months ago and he did it a week ago. CUOMO: That's the one example you have? I don't remember him saying, by the way, obviously we'll check. I don't remember him saying, "I apologize for what I said about John McCain."

GIULIANI: I didn't say -- I don't remember him saying I apologize. I do remember him saying, "it's a mistake."

CUOMO: But what does that tell you? Wouldn't you if you said something so insulting about a veteran?

GIULIANI: I might say it's a mistake.

CUOMO: You wouldn't apologize? You say, "I like guys who don't get caught," you wouldn't apologize I'd you said that? I don't know if you would ever say that, but.

GIULIANI: Maybe I would if that were the proper circumstance. You asked me where is a time where he owned up to a mistake, he owned up to a mistake.

CUOMO: But all the times that he doesn't, what does that mean to you? Why doesn't he do it? All these situations would go away. He won't come on. He won't come on this show, Rudy.

GIULIANI: He won't come because honestly, this is -- I know, oh, you keep saying this over and over again, and the press gets so upset and very defensive. Your coverage, I don't mean you, I mean the press's coverage of him is so unfair, compared to the press's coverage of the pay for play secretary of state who revealed e-mails that put the national security of this country in jeopardy. That is a massive scandal of huge proportion.

CUOMO: I'm not disagreeing with you about the need to cover it.

GIULIANI: Rather than fighting over language and what language ...

CUOMO: Well, look, and by the way, I think that you're right in terms of the strategy here. That's why I'm asking you about the strategy. He could be talking about the e-mails, instead, he's defending what comes out of his own mouth because he won't just own it.

GIULIANI: OK. Let's try one other way. What he said was certainly not criminal. What she did with the Clinton Foundation and all the favors the State Department did for hundreds of millions of dollars is, to me, clear violation of the conflict of interest law.

[21:30:09] And I would be investigating right now as a racketeering enterprise as I did a lot of Wall Street people. I don't...

CUOMO: And if it's investigated, we'll cover it.

GIULIANI: I'm the person who helped to contribute to ...

CUOMO: We cover it now and we would cover an investigation. But with -- there is no investigation.

GIULIANI: Yeah, but there -- there're allegations coming out day after day, e-mail after e-mail.

CUOMO: And we cover them. Many often they come out of this outlet.

GIULIANI: Not with the same vigor, not with the same tremendous emphasis, not with the same amount of time that you spent on one little thing that he says that he -- why not ...

CUOMO: But what's the thing that also -- it matters, you know ...

GIULIANI: Why not accept his explanation?

CUOMO: He didn't give one.

GIULIANI: Yes, he did.

CUOMO: No. He said the media is rigged. They twisted my words, this is terrible, they're terrible.

GIULIANI: No, he did. And he said -- and this is what I meant. What I meant was they should vote against her.

CUOMO: That's what ...

GIULIANI: That's what he meant.

CUOMO: But that's just not what he said.

GIULIANI: I saw him -- but he did say that. He said, I meant they should vote against her.

CUOMO: No. He said, I meant they should vote against her. He didn't say go vote against her. He said something that was open to interpretation.

GIULIANI: No. And that's what he said ...

CUOMO: That's what started all of this latest round.

GIULIANI: That everything I say is open to interpretation. Any words I use. You can't say ...

CUOMO: That's why you have to pick your words carefully, which you did as an elected leader, because people are going to parse them.

GIULIANI: So what ...

CUOMO: And if you're president of the United States, they're going to do it more than anything in the world.

GIULIANI: So, what's wrong with those words? What's wrong with those words, you can do something about it if you assume that the man is not there talking about violence? He is no -- he used no words of violence.

CUOMO: True. But in the pattern of violence ...

GIULIANI: But instead of the things that he said ...

CUOMO: ... before raises a question.


CUOMO: It raises a question. It just does.


BERMAN: And you know what? There's much more of this interview to come after a quick break. The conversation turns to Donald Trump's tax returns and more on Hillary Clinton's e-mails. We'll be right back.


[21:35:31] BERMAN: Right now, the rest of Chris Cuomo's interview with Trump supporter, the former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani. Before the break, Chris pressed Mayor Giuliani on the way that Donald Trump has been going after his opponent saying he's the co-founder of ISIS along with President Obama and that maybe "Second Amendment people," his words, can do something about her.

The former mayor defended Donald Trump and attacked the media. Kicking off part two of the interview, why won't Donald Trump release his taxes? Take a look.


CUOMO: That his decision on another front, the taxes. Are the taxes a big deal? No. But his decision to not release them now becomes a big deal because his argument about Hillary on one level is what? Transparency, you can't trust her. She's not going to be open with you. It's hard for him to make a compelling case when he's doing the same thing with his taxes. Why don't you advise him to just release the taxes and make it go away?

GIULIANI: Well, whatever I advise him is between him and me.

CUOMO: True.


CUOMO: But it's a question.

GIULIANI: OK. He -- that's a personal decision. Given all the things that she's hid, given all the things that she's destroyed, the fact that he's not releasing his taxes ...

CUOMO: How does it make it better ...

GIULIANI: ... when you have a financial disclosure form which describes a great deal of his holdings is an issue. I ...

CUOMO: Except the financial disclosure form rewards exaggeration.

GIULIANI: I grant you, it's an issue. But it is nothing in comparison to the 35,000 e-mails that she destroyed.

CUOMO: Yes. Except, we had a dozen different official investigations of that issue, right? It's not like we ignored the e-mail situation, right. She gave 11 hours of open testimony on it. So it's not like nobody knows anything about it.

GIULIANI: Yes. And her husband sat down inappropriately with the attorney general of the United States three days before ...

CUOMO: It never got to her. The head of the FBI, who you know and respect, came out and said I don't see a case to be made here. She was extremely careless ...

GIULIANI: No. No, he didn't say I don't see a case to be made here.

CUOMO: Of course he did. Otherwise he would have referred a case.

GIULIANI: First of that that's -- first of all, it's not his job to make a determination about whether they would ...

CUOMO: But that's -- that was his conclusion, it was that ...

GIULIANI: Was his conclusion, his conclusion was she lied on a number of occasions. His conclusion was that she was extremely careless in the use of ...


CUOMO: Right. But he didn't say they have a case of a crime.

GIULIANI: And extremely careless means grossly negligent, it was violates the law.

CUOMO: But then, he would have referred the case for prosecution but he didn't.

GIULIANI: As his former boss, I believe Jim Comey reading of the law is completely wrong. I think it is highly suspicious that on the day that he said that, Bill Clinton was on an airplane with Hillary Clinton. I cannot believe that ...

CUOMO: You think James Comey was compromised in this situation?

GIULIANI: I don't know who was compromised. You tell me.

CUOMO: But you know him very well. That's a very heavy, heavy allegation.

GIULIANI: I am not saying -- I'm not saying James Comey was compromised. He might have told the attorney general or the deputy attorney general. I don't know who he told.

CUOMO: Told them what?

GIULIANI: His decision. Chris, you know politics. Are they going to put Clinton on the same plane with the President of the United States on the very day that the director of the FBI is going to give his report on this if they think he's going to say that ...

CUOMO: Who's they? The Justice Department?

GIULIANI: The White House.

CUOMO: The White House didn't put Clinton on the plane with the attorney general.

GIULIANI: No, no. No.

CUOMO: Clinton made that happen.

GIULIANI: No, no. You're not getting my point.

CUOMO: And maybe that was inappropriate.

GIULIANI: You're not getting my point. On the day that James Comey made his decision.

CUOMO: Right.

GIULIANI: The President of the United States was going to appear with Hillary Clinton.

CUOMO: Right.

GIULIANI: If the White House knew that there was the possibility that there was going to be an indictment.

CUOMO: Right.

GIULIANI: The President wouldn't be there. I worked in the White House.

CUOMO: How does that undermine the confidence in Comey's decision?

GIULIANI: It means there was a leak of it.

CUOMO: So what?

GIULIANI: There was a leak of it.

CUOMO: But even if you're right, so what?

GIULIANI: Well, you shouldn't leak it.

CUOMO: But that doesn't mean that his judgment was impaired. I'm saying do you think Comey made a call that was influenced by somebody else? Yes or no?

GIULIANI: I don't know the answer to that. So I can't make the charge. I believe he made a grossly wrong ...

CUOMO: But he made a call that there was no crime.

GIULIANI: Which is absolutely ... CUOMO: And it looks that for a year, he had his guys look into it.

GIULIANI: Yeah, which he shouldn't have been looking at it for years. It should have taken about three months. But in any event ...

CUOMO: But I'm saying, if anything you err on the side of caution. I don't understand why you're trying to undermine the confidence in the man's decision.

GIULIANI: Well, I do undermine the confidence, I disagree with his decision. I can give decision would outrage ...

CUOMO: You can disagree with it, but it doesn't mean that he made it for bad reasons.

GIULIANI: I think he's decision was an embarrassment to the FBI.

CUOMO: But what I'm saying. But I'm saying that kind -- but there's two different things. You can say, he got it wrong, fine. But if you say, and why did he get it wrong, now you're going down a path of speculation that undermines the confidence in a system that is a very dangerous thing to do if you don't have any proof.

[21:40:03] GIULIANI: Well, I'm not -- I believe his decision was --

CUOMO: Was wrong.

GIULIANI: No, grossly inadequate.

CUOMO: OK. But fine. That's your opinion.

GIULIANI: Is that what you know?

CUOMO: You don't think he made a decision for bad reason. You don't have any proof of that.

GIULIANI: I have no proof of that.

CUOMO: That's the question.

GIULIANI: I am not suggesting he made it for bad reasons.

CUOMO: Because it sounded like you were, that's why I'm making you clarify.

GIULIANI: Well, I clarify it. I believe the decision was so wrong. I cannot understand how he came to that conclusion. I don't believe he did it for bad reasons because I think he's a good man. But the decision perplexes me. It perplexes Jim Kallstrom (ph) who worked for him. It perplexes numerous FBI agents who talk to me all the time. And it embarrasses some FBI agents. So, I can tell you all that. Why he made it that way, I can't tell you.

CUOMO: That's right. And that's where it should be left. That's not what Trump says.

GIULIANI: He laid out a case ...

CUOMO: Trump says oh, it was the, you know, there was something wrong there.

GIULIANI: You read that report until the last two pages, he laid out a case for a perfect prosecution, under a statute that has a grossly negligent standard and five years in jail.

CUOMO: And as you well know, and again, everybody should know this about you that you were a prosecutor, and you were a very good one, federal prosecutor, that statute is almost never used and when it is, they always look to show intent. They go way beyond gross negligence.

GIULIANI: That statue, as far as I can tell, and the research you're able to do of cases that are declined and that ...

CUOMO: Right.

GIULIANI: ... that statute, there's never been a violation of it at the level at which she violated it. Her violation was incredible, meaning thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands ...

CUOMO: I'm not -- none of that can be denied. What I'm saying at the end of day, the guy looked at it and he said it wasn't a crime.

GIULIANI: And under similar statutes, under similar statutes for which she could have been prosecuted, people have been prosecuted ...

CUOMO: When they've been able to show that they either lied to the FBI or that they knowingly did what is specified ...

GIULIANI: She did lie. She did lie.


GIULIANI: She lied to the public.

CUOMO: But not to the FBI. And one is a crime -- I'm taking you as your opinion.

GIULIANI: What, yeah. And one is a crime ...

CUOMO: One is a crime. One is not a crime.

GIULIANI: But it's evidence of intent. Lying to the public is evidence of intent, by the way.

CUOMO: But you would have to lie to the FBI to trigger the statute.


CUOMO: I know that we're in the weeds. But what I'm trying to say is ...

GIULIANI: Not to trigger that statute. CUOMO: What I'm trying to say is that you have to be careful about what you insinuate about these situations. Trump does that a lot. It undermines confidence in him which is why, by the way, you get this open letter of the 50 national security experts from the GOP who come out and say this guy can't be president. And you kind of brush it aside and say they have it wrong.

You got Mike Chertoff on there. You got Tom Ridge is on there. These are men that you know and respect very much and you just brush aside their assessment? Why?

GIULIANI: I believe they're wrong. They don't know Trump the way I know Trump. They don't realize and understand what Trump can do for the country that Hillary Clinton cannot do. They're not assessing properly how Hillary Clinton will appoint a Supreme Court that will destroy a lot of the rights that we have and make the next president, should it be difficult, very, very difficult.

CUOMO: They're talking about national security.

GIULIANI: And I think that's ...

CUOMO: They're talking about foreign affairs.

GIULIANI: I'd rather have ...

CUOMO: How did they not know? What do you know that they don't?

GIULIANI: I know him a lot better than they do. And I also assess maybe more strongly the fact that I don't want a president who has been grossly negligent with the handling of national security. I think that is a lot more serious than all these little arguments we're having about what Trump meant about this, what Trump meant about that. And by the way, I have put people in jail for handling national security information improperly. People, they did far less than she did. And I have done cases that are 10 percent of what she did with the Clinton's foundation ...

CUOMO: But it went through the system and that's it now.

GIULIANI: That isn't it. I can still draw my conclusion that she's ...

CUOMO: Of course you can, but I'm saying in terms of the idea ...

GIULIANI: I don't want to ...

CUOMO: ... that there's something more there, it is what it is. They went through it. They did the investigation. Comey had his finding. You have 11 hours of testimony.

GIULIANI: And now -- so now ...

CUOMO: It's baked into the voters. So that's it. That's what it is. 27 percent of people think she's telling the truth about it. Obviously it's sunk into people. GIULIANI: Worst case for both. You get a choice between a secretary of state who was grossly negligent in handling national security.

CUOMO: Right.

GIULIANI: And a president who says things that you find ambiguous and ...

CUOMO: No. That's not the proposition. And he is right. You're right, I will give you the one part of the equation, OK. And That's your opinion. I'm not saying it's accurate. I'm saying that's ...

GIULIANI: No, no, that's not my opinion. That's what Comey said. Comey said she was grossly ...

CUOMO: Extremely careless.

GIULIANI: If we want to use ...

CUOMO: Extremely careless.

GIULIANI: ... which is a legal definition of gross negligence.

CUOMO: Look, we both know -- no. It would be an extrapolation. I think you picked those words on purpose to not echo what's in the statute -- to the statute.

GIULIANI: Go read the cases and the definition of gross negligence. It's extremely careless is one of the four definitions.

CUOMO: Be that as it may. What's on the other side of the scales, not of justice in this case but presidential politics.

GIULIANI: Comey knows what I said. Jim knows the definition of gross -- because he sat through enough trials in which gross negligence has been defined as ...

[21:45:06] CUOMO: It came up as soon as he used the words. I get it. The end of this -- to the conclusion is though, he didn't see a case to bring forward.

On the other side of the scale, though, is Donald Trump who not once, not twice, but many, many times undermines confidence in his ability to send across a clear message that is not inherently hostile or divisive. The man welcomes chants of lock them up about the entire media. Do you think that is healthy for a democracy? To have a president of the United States ...

GIULIANI: I'm giving ...

CUOMO: ... that encourages people to turn on its media?

GIULIANI: First of all ...

CUOMO: Would you do that? GIULIANI: If you treated me the way you're treating him, you're darned right I would, and I did. When -- you think I was treated fairly as a Republican mayor in New York City?

CUOMO: No politician base that they are treated fairly.

GIULIANI: You treat Republicans differently than you treat Democrats. You can't live up to it and you do. You do. It's true. It's just the truth. It's been true since day one.

CUOMO: It's not it is. It is your truth.

GIULIANI: I know, you think it's my truth. It's absolutely true. And as the Republican mayor of New York City, I knew I had it over before. I knew the "New York Times" would -- if I raised my voice this much, would say mayor storms out of conference.

CUOMO: Pop said the same thing, that they would call him a hot-headed Italian whenever he said anything. He had to keep his temper down and he was no Republican.

GIULIANI: And true.

CUOMO: And then he was no Republican, right?

GIULIANI: I think of that not ...

CUOMO: I get why politicians don't like the media.

GIULIANI: ... not that your dad was hot-headed. It is true that Democrats get bad coverage but objective analysis. The negative coverage of Republicans is about three to one to the coverage of Democrats.

CUOMO: I don't know where that number, where it comes from.

GIULIANI: That, it comes from studies.

CUOMO: Is there -- it's look, I'm only responsible for what I do. Let me ask you one more of the quote. I don't have any (inaudible).

GIULIANI: I'm on your show.

CUOMO: I know.

GIULIANI: Because you are a fair man.

CUOMO: I know and I respect that. And you know that ...

GIULIANI: But I don't think that the overwhelming majority in your profession is fair.

CUOMO: I get it. I get what you feel. I'm just saying it's not worth our time right now. let me ask one other think.

GIULIANI: Well, it is. CUOMO: No, it isn't. Because I can't have a media range of conversation.

GIULIANI: It was the ...

CUOMO: There is so many outlets ...

GIULIANI: The America ...

CUOMO: ... with different people with different agendas.

GIULIANI: The American people have to make their own decision about this uninfluenced by a media that is substantially biased against Donald Trump.

CUOMO: Not all media is the same. I will say this to you again.

GIULIANI: And I'm not talking about you.

CUOMO: Donald Trump causes his own coverage cycles by what comes out of his mouth. We do not have to hunt for situations on ...

GIULIANI: Well, you did in this one.

CUOMO: ... he presents them. Because of an established pattern and an inability to ever apologize for anything that he says.

GIULIANI: OK. If we grant all that is true, I will take that over an attorney general ...

CUOMO: That's your decision. That's the voters' decision.

GIULIANI: ... who is extremely -- I thought, you're asking about me.

CUOMO: True.

GIULIANI: My decision. I would take that over a secretary of state who is extremely careless about the use of national security information on thousands of occasions against a secretary of state who turned the state department into a pay for play organization.

CUOMO: That's your interpretation.

GIULIANI: Well, you're asking my view.

CUOMO: I know. I know.

GIULIANI: You're asking me why ...

CUOMO: And so just to clarify for it because you're very compelling so want to just clarify for my audience.

GIULIANI: But why do you have to clarify?

CUOMO: Because there's no finding that she turned the state department into a pay for play organization. You have e-mails out there right now that suggest that people from the foundation, we're talking to people in the state department about meetings and trying to find jobs for people.

GIULIANI: How about a meeting for a guy with the American ambassador to Lebanon, and the guy is a convicted money launder and he makes a $1 million to $5 million contribution to the Clinton foundation and ...

CUOMO: They ask for it. The ambassador says the meeting never happened. Let me ask you about something else.

The debates, you're going to negotiate for Trump. I would have thought that Trump would jump at the chance to have as many debates with Clinton as possible.

GIULIANI: He does.

CUOMO: It doesn't seem like that. He came up with this story about the NFL saying they were unhappy with some letter that never existed.

GIULIANI: Donald Trump is going to participate in all three debates and the negotiations are going to be about as they always are, and have always been, about how we do it.

CUOMO: So he'll do all three? That you -- these stories about he's going to only do one, or, you don't buy it?

GIULIANI: He will do all three debates. The negotiations which the federal commission has always allowed between the ...

CUOMO: Absolutely.

GIULIANI: ... is going to happen about, you know, I don't know, how big is the podium and do you wear red ties or does she wear a blue suit then ...

CUOMO: All those things.

GIULIANI: All that crazy stuff they negotiate over. How much water do you put or can you take notes. Can you bring notes out with you? Those negotiations have to take place.

He's told me two weeks ago, he wants me and Paul Manafort to negotiate the terms of the debate. He's told us the things that are critical to him. None of them have to do with not debating. There are things that he thinks are important to him and fair to him. None of them are unusual or unprecedented, the things that have been done before.

[21:50:03] So I see no reason why there are not going to be debates. I believe that the debates are critical to him.

CUOMO: Yeah, I think you're right.

GIULIANI: Because I believe he needs to go above the press and talk directly to the people.

There was once a headline in "Newsday" when I was mayor, it was called, air mayor. And "Newsday" had actually figured out my strategy. After 12 months of being viciously criticized by the "New York Times" in particular and the liberal media in New York, they figured out my strategy. I was on radio and television so often that I was delivering my own message to people because I didn't want the "New York Times" saying "The angry mayor."

CUOMO: Yeah.

GIULIANI: "The mean mayor."

CUOMO: That's true.

GIULIANI: "The mean mayor trying to take people off welfare and requiring them to work."

CUOMO: You'll always be your best advocate. That's why we offer this platform to all the candidates, including Trump. I would encourage you to encourage him to come back on.

GIULIANI: I'm going to tell you. I'm going to do dearly.

CUOMO: Yeah.

GIULIANI: I'm going to courage him to come back on this show.

CUOMO: Good.

GIULIANI: Because he is his best advocate when he gets to explain it for himself.

CUOMO: You know, I have said that myself.

GIULIANI: And air Trump should be part of the strategy.

CUOMO: The "New day" is an open forum for all relevant people.

GIULIANI: It's called "New day," we can have a new day.

CUOMO: Thank you very much.

GIULIANI: We can start over.

CUOMO: You got it. Mr. Mayor, thank you for being with us.

GIULIANI: Always a pleasure.

CUOMO: As always.

GIULIANI: Always a pleasure and you're always fair.

CUOMO: I appreciate it.

GIULIANI: Tough, fair.


BERMAN: We have a lot to discuss with the panel which might be the understatement of the hour right now, Maggie -- I, (inaudible).

Let me start with Rudy Giuliani and Donald Trump, that relationship there. There are a lot of people who look to him and say maybe he's a guy who can say things to Donald Trump, can be a Donald Trump whisperer to get him back on track when he's off track, if that's in fact the case. But it doesn't seem like Rudy Giuliani thinks that Donald Trump is doing anything wrong.

HABERMAN: Well, at least over the last couple of days. I think it's important to remember that when Rudy Giuliani first said that he was going to vote for Donald Trump, he wouldn't say he was going to endorse him. And he was very clear.

I think also in an interview with Chris who did a very good job there that he didn't want to own everything. He want -- basically didn't want to be a part of the campaign. That has changed dramatically ...

BERMAN: Clearly.

HABERMAN: ... since things wrapped up. And this week, you know, Giuliani has in the past said things that were critical about what Trump has done. That's obviously not what he did here.

I've covered Giuliani for almost 20 years. I covered most of his second term as mayor of New York City and he was really the politician who I most enjoyed covering in part because of all of the reasons that people initially liked Trump. He was very accessible. You know, he would do three press conferences a day. You could always find him and he was credited with being an incredibly transformative person. He does have this, you know, and also being very controversial and having downsized to his mayoralty.

He has a long relationship with Trump. But what you heard in that interview just now, in addition to a bunch of things that just weren't true, about the Times' coverage about what Trump actually said about McCain and the hero thing, that is not true, what he said.

You also heard a lot of sort of the same kind of hidden hand discussion of sort of, you know, tying a plus b equals z together that you hear from Trump that you didn't used to hear a lot from Giuliani. It's also really important to remember that Giuliani has been sort of mentally running against Hillary Clinton in one form or another himself since 1999, when the Senate match-up in New York that launched her political career was supposed to be against him and he dropped out of that race in 2000. It is important to contextualize that.

BERMAN: David Brock, I'm glad you're here because Rudy Giuliani says the media is completely biased against Republicans.

BROCK: Right.

BERMAN: Part of your job, in part of what you do is saying that U.S. media is completely biased against Hillary Clinton. Now, I don't think you can both be right or maybe you're both wrong and we're just fair and we treat everyone pretty tough. BROCK: Look, I think everybody has their point to make on media bias. It surfaces from time to time one side or another. We don't paint with a broad brush that the entire media is against Hillary Clinton, but I'll tell you, Giuliani tried to cite some surveys. If you really do look at the surveys and you look at any objective, quantifiable evidence, she gets a harder time than Donald Trump.

BERMAN: That's not what Rudy Giuliani said.

BROCK: I know that. And I'm just saying he has his facts wrong. Because there was a study out of Harvard that looked at 2015 and showed that she had by far more negative coverage. He had more volume and more positive ...

BERMAN: Why complain about the media all the time. Do you guys think it's effective?

BROCK: Well, I think when it's a right thing to raise, it needs to be raised. And I do think it can work politically in certain contexts, sure.

But look, I don't think we're making allegations that aren't grounded in reality. Now, I think the right wing has perfected this for 30 years and their base really does respond to this notion of liberal media bias.

BERMAN: In a way, you're saying you respect the argument.

BROCK: I think it was brilliant what they did, when they started doing this in late 1960s. Sure, but our criticism is very different. Our criticism is very fact base. We're not making loose allegations of bias. And I think we've proven our case there were time that there's a double standard when it comes to the Clintons with a lot of the media.

[21:55:03] BERMAN: I was hoping you'd declare a truce. I was hoping, you'd say, "You know what, we're all wrong. The media is doing their job right here."

Andre Bauer, how do you think Rudy Giuliani is as a surrogate for Donald Trump?

BAUER: I think he's absolutely fabulous. I thought he just did a masterful job there.

BERMAN: Rudy Giuliani is pro-choice. Rudy Giuliani is supportive of same sex marriage. Rudy Giuliani as Mayor was pro-gun control for the most part of the cities.

HABERMAN: And didn't go to his own party's convention in '96.

BERMAN: And they caught (ph) a surprise in '96. Any irony there at this point?

BAUER: No. We're not talking about Giuliani's run for president. We're talking about a surrogate that is supporting Donald Trump's policies. Donald Trump is not support Rudy Giuliani's policies.

HABERMAN: Donald Trump also is a former Democrat. So, it's not exactly that there was a huge amount of daylight between them, especially on issues like abortion. I mean, there's -- they're not dissimilar in New York figures and characters in certain respects. And I think in that way, I think Giuliani really does understand Trump more than a lot of people around him.

BERMAN: All right guys. Thanks so much. It was fascinating to watch, fascinating to watch with all of you. Your reaction during the whole thing telling it off yourself. I really appreciate it. We'll be right back.


[22:00:04] BERMAN: That does it for us. Thanks for watching. Time now for "CNN TONIGHT with Don Lemon".