Return to Transcripts main page
ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Trump To Blacks: "What The Hell Do You Have To Lose?"; Trump Makes Black Outreach From White Suburb; Judge: Clinton Has To Answer Questions On Emails; Pres. Obama To Visit Flood Zone Tuesday; Trump, Pence Tour Flooded Louisiana; Obama To Visit Flood Zone Tuesday; Getting Ready For The Debates; Memorable Moments In Debate History; Trump To Start Debate Prep This Weekend; First Clinton-Trump Debate Next Month; Will The Gloves Come Off In Debates; Why Milwaukee Erupted In Violence; Milwaukee Violence After Fatal Police Shooting; Policing For Profit In Milwaukee?; The Wild Saga Of Patty Hearst. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired August 19, 2016 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:01:27] ANDERSON COOPER, CNN AC360 ANCHOR: Good evening. A day after what some are calling, the new Donald Trump made his debut, his old campaign chief hit the road and so did Trump. And for a second straight day he made African-Americans the center piece of part of his appeal. Trump as you know is polling in the low single digits among black voters. And just like last night he made his pitch to him in a virtually all white suburb. He asked African-American, "What the hell do you have to lose by voting for him." The question tonight, what can he expect to gain from the effort.
Our Jessica Schneider is covering the Trump campaign, and joins us from Dimondale, Michigan, just outside Lansing. So, what can he expect to gain?
JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, he has a lot to gain. In fact, in national polls, Donald Trump is only getting about 1 percent of the African-American vote. But despite that, and despite the fact that the vast majority of the people here at the rally in Dimondale were white, Donald Trump is still making that strong pitch to African-Americans. In fact, he talked about Hillary Clinton. He said that, she's taken those voters for granted. And he even went as far as accusing Hillary Clinton of wanting to give jobs to Syrian immigrants instead of African-Americans.
So really taking it to the extreme and he's talked about this all week. He's touched on this and pitched his message to African- Americans. But tonight was definitely the most fiery we've seen. He actually said three times what do you have to lose to those voters, Anderson?
COOPER: And that wasn't -- my understanding is that was not actually written into his speech. That was an ad lib. Is that your understanding as well?
SCHNEIDER: Yeah. You know, the new Trump or the new team Trump has said that Donald Trump will do a little bit of a mix of his own unique and authentic style but also sticking on message.
Interestingly, Donald Trump did have the teleprompters and for the most part, he stuck on script but you're right. In that particular part, he did go off script. He didn't necessarily stick to the script, saying a few times, "What the hell do you have to lose." He also went off script when he said and he predicted that if he is elected president that in four years, he went to the extreme, he said 95 percent of African-Americans will actually be voting for me.
So sticking to the script for the most part but then going off a little bit and ad libbing, especially when it pertained to the African-American vote.
COOPER: You know, it's interesting, days ago, when new folks were added to the Trump campaign, you know, one of Trump's attorneys was on saying, look, this is not a shakeup in any way. Today, you know, Paul Manafort handing in his resignation. It's hard to see, and this as anything but a shakeup.
SCHNEIDER: Yeah, right. You know, back on Wednesday, they termed this as an expansion, not a shakeup. But, you know, everyone sort of saw the writing on the wall here. They knew that Paul Manafort's role would be diminished.
In fact, sources telling CNN that Paul Manafort said to Donald Trump. He admitted, he said look, I've become a distraction, I need to end this.
So it was pretty much again, the writing on the wall when that -- those changes were announced on Wednesday and finally today, Paul Manafort stepping down and seeing a bit of a different Donald Trump here, unique but also to trying to stick to the message, Anderson?
COOPER: All right, Jessica Schneider. Jessica thanks very much.
Corey Lewandowski joins us. As you know, before becoming a political commentator for us, he ran the Trump campaign.
Corey first, I got to start with what Donald Trump just said in his speech, ad libbing the part about African-Americans should vote for him because what the hell do they have to lose. He also said, they don't have jobs, they live in poverty, and their schools are terrible. Is that how you get people to vote for you? I mean, is that real outreach to African-Americans?
COREY LEWANDOWSKI,CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think what you see, Anderson is that the African-American community as a whole under this administration is worse off today than they were four or eight years ago. Look, the real wage -- in real dollar earnings, African- American median income is down almost $2,500 since 2008. African- American unemployment ...
[21:05:10] COOPER: But just in terms of ...
LEWANDOWSKI: It's because of ... COOPER: ... actual outreach, I mean, if he's trying to get votes is -- can he really speak to African-Americans when he's only speaking to largely white audiences? I mean, what about going to an actual African-American church or he was in Detroit, you know, but he went to a largely white community to make a speech then got on his plane. He could have stopped off in a, you know, anyplace.
LEWANDOWSKI: Look at the audience in the room is one thing, but he talks to a national audience. He does it every time that he gets up in speech. So if you think about it, where African-American unemployment is at 8.2 percent in May where the national unemployment rate is 4.7 percent, there's clearly something wrong. And what he's saying is if you want change, and you want a job, I'm your candidate and the Democratic Party has taken you for granted for a long time, so what do you have to lose because you're not doing very well.
COOPER: What does he have to lose with going to speak in front of African-Americans? I mean, is he comfortable doing that? I know the -- certainly lots of African-American employees I assume in his business. But, you know, he criticizes Secretary Clinton. You know, she actually goes to African-American churches, she speaks to African- American groups. He says she only sees them as votes. But what does it say about him that he hasn't really had any events where he's gone particularly to speak to African-Americans?
LEWANDOWSKI: Look, I think it's about the substance of the speech. It's not about the venue. Now sure, can he go to an African-American community and give the exact same speech, sure he could. But the speech is the speech. His bullet points are exactly the same whether he's in, you know, Detroit or he's in Minnesota or in he's in Louisiana ...
COOPER: But he's gone to speak to veteran groups. He's going to speak to other groups.
LEWANDOWSKI: Sure, he has. And what he did today, they went to Louisiana. He handed out supplies to the people who have been, you know, devastated by a flood and, you know what the president did today? He played golf.
The president, you know, this is shameful. This is the exact same thing that President Obama criticized George W. Bush for doing, which was not going to Hurricane Katrina when he was running for president of the United States. And instead, Donald Trump was in Louisiana today trying to learn first-hand of the devastation which has taken place down there and where is Barack Obama? On the vineyard playing golf.
COOPER: The other big news, and we should point out that hours after President Obama said he is now going to go, whether that's in reaction to Donald Trump or not is up for viewers to decide. The other big news today obviously departure of Paul Manafort, is, you know, is this shakeup confirmation for you that Donald Trump didn't think his campaign was headed in the right direction?
LEWANDOWSKI: Well, what I think is that Donald Trump is very happy with the direction that this campaign has had for the last five days. I think this is the best week the campaign has had probably since the Florida primaries, actually. You know, you have to win every day in a presidential campaign. And this week, he's won every day in my opinion.
Now, the last three or four weeks I think the campaign has had some real missed opportunities by going after Hillary. They weren't focused, they didn't build out their field plan, they didn't have a significant effort in the state of Florida which is a battleground state. I think you see some of his scheduling which probably was suspect and who was advising him on that, you know. There's accountability there.
So I think this is a right step in the right direction with Steve Bannon and Kellyanne Conway running this, I think you're going to see a more focused Donald Trump mentally prepared great speeches, three, four, five nights in a row. That's the Donald Trump you going to see going forward.
COOPER: All right, Corey Lewandowski. Corey thanks very much.
Now, breaking news in the Clinton e-mail story, the Secretary Clinton's new reaction to what Donald Trump had to say to African- American voters. CNN's Joe Johns is working both stories and joins us now.
So first of all, Trump's comments in Michigan, Hillary Clinton just tweeted a response, what does it say?
JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, the tweet on Hillary Clinton's feed leads off charging that Trump's appeal to black voters is, "This is so ignorant it's staggering." The campaign followed up with statements attributed to Marlon Marshall, a top official in the campaign. It said, Donald Trump asked what the African-American community has to lose by voting for him. The answer is everything from a man who questions the citizenship of the first African-American president, courts white supremacists and has been sued for housing discrimination.
COOPER: Also tonight, federal judge ordering Hillary Clinton to answer questions under oath about her e-mail server.
JOHNS: That's right. The judge here in Washington, DC did say that Hillary Clinton had to answer questions in writing about the lawsuit that's been going on here, freedom of information lawsuit over her e- mail server. Lawyers for the conservative group judicial watch had asked for permission to interview her under oath but the judge said response in writing are enough.
The campaign tonight saying it's happy with the court ruling but calling out judicial watch for its pursuit of the Clintons since the 1990s and describing the case as another lawsuit intended to hurt the campaign. Anderson.
COOPER: All right, Joe Johns. Joe, thanks very much. Back with the panel. You know, Bakari, I mean, you now have Secretary Clinton again, still involved with the e-mail controversy, still making headlines about it. And now saying that the Clinton Foundation is going to continue when she's president but is not going to accept money from foreign government, he's only going to accept money from U.S. citizens, what -- you know, one of the things the Republican Party, RNC responded in a statement, and I think it's actually a valid question, which is if it was OK when she was Secretary of State for the Clinton Foundation to be getting money from foreign governments, why is it not OK when she was president? Wasn't a conflict?
[21:10:11] BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, they're not doing it because it was a conflict. But they're doing it because it's a distraction. And I think that that is the largest distinction that can be made. What's happening now with the Clinton Foundation is I wish the campaign, I wish Brooklyn would take more time to push back about the good works the campaign has done. I wish that President Clinton although he's been doing it, it would have other surrogates and people talking about the good works that the Clinton Foundation has done.
But what we're seeing everyday when you have the Boston Globe come out, when you have Governor Rendell come out. You see that it's becoming a distraction and that is not something that's needed when you're president of the United States. And one of the things you can do to eliminate that distraction is rein in the way they have.
So, no, there was no illegality, there was nothing unethical, but yes, it has become a distraction now. And I think that you eliminate that distraction.
COOPER: Is it just a distraction?
KAYLEIGH MCENANY, CONSERVATIVE COLUMNINST: No, I mean, Bakari seeing extremely gratuitous to call this a distraction when in fact Hillary signed an agreement where she said she would not engage in any doings with the Clinton Foundation. Then we find out this week her top aides were giving a Lebanese billionaire access, immediate access ...
SELLERS: That's not true.
MCENANY: Immediate access ...
SELLERS: That's not true. But no, I have to -- we are going to fact check that. Because no. That's not true.
MCENANY: ... they also find an agreement not to use a private server and to conduct work business on work computers. Agreements and her signature and her word, does not matter. In clearly I think it all mean ...
SELLERS: But I mean, you can -- I mean, listen, there's a lot to go after the Clintons for but we have to stop the misinformation. The fact of the matter is, this individual wasn't seeking anything. In fact, this Lebanese billionaire who was a donor was actually trying to relay information and set up a meeting and you know what? The meeting never even occurred.
So if you want to have some -- if you want to go out and find a smoking gun, please by all means go, but at least be factual.
MCENANY: That's great, that is ...
COOPER: But it there single, I mean, I went to the Clinton Global Initiative once to like moderate a panel, I don't know how many years ago, I can't even remember what panel is about. But with some low level people, but it did seem to me, and I didn't hang out at the parties afterward and stuff, but it seemed to me a lot of folks were there just to hang out and hob-knob with the Clintons.
And it did seem to me, I mean, certainly do a lot of good works on HIV and African, there's a lot of people alive today who wouldn't be alive, but I mean, a lot of it was the sort of the cult of personality of Bill Clinton wanting to be in his orbit.
SELLERS: Well, that is true, I mean that, that is the big dog is a big personality that is charismatic, that people gravitate towards. But what the Clinton Global Initiative have also does, and you know this from being there, is this kind of a -- it sits there and it matches, it matches these non-profits and matches these charities with donors. A lot of people don't understand what the Clinton Foundation can.
COOPER: Right, but a lot of it was the allure of the Clintons. I mean, if people really, if companies really wanted to do that they could have done that on ...
SELLERS: I don't think that you apologize. You're right. But I'm sorry, I don't think that you should apologize for Bill Clinton being a personality and because donors want to come, and be around that personality. He'd able to help out. He's be able to help out ...
TARA SETMAYER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Except when those donors get like coveted seats on National Security Committees that's they were completely unqualified for like the gentleman, I can't think of his name, he was a Chicago investment banker and he gave money to the Clintons campaign and then to the global -- the Clinton Foundation and he ends up on a nuclear committee that had no idea of a no qualifications ...
COOPER: Well, frankly, that's like a good number of ambassadors as well and that's done by Republicans and Democrats. Yeah, you know, did someone absolutely ...
SETMAYER: This is in described, but these aren't the direct owner to call for them, so that's just one of many examples ...
ANGELA RYE, POLITICAL STRATEGIST: Thinking of the donor, it was Donald Trump was also a donor to the Clinton campaign. (CROSSTALK)
ANDRE BAUER, TRUMP SUPPORTER: Clinton do a mass full job. But it does do good work, but they find a way to hide behind the good work. Look, this is pay to play. It's not right. There's no question and saying that if she becomes president that she's going to quit, will though probably raise more in the next 80 days than they have all year. Everybody will go ahead and ante up like a going out of business sale.
MCENANY: It's worth mentioning ...
BAUER: And then the next thing you know it will be the first dude foundation. It start a new foundation and keep doing the same thing you have been doing before. I mean clearly, this is why people have a bad taste in their mouth for the Clintons and for government overall. It's just it sends a bad message that the big folks get a seat at the table, they can stroke the checks, the other folks don't.
MCENANY: Sure, and it's worth mentioning that this Lebanese billionaire, we only found out about him because these were the deleted e-mails. The 44 e-mails Hillary Clinton promised she turned over all work related you-mails but the 44 e-mails judicial watch was able to discover revealed a Lebanese billionaire who gained access to a top person to a top meeting. The ...
SELLERS: They e didn't have the meeting. He didn't gained access.
MCENANY: And aid it to the Clinton Foundation who was recommended to go into the State Department ...
SELLERS: Correct. Do you know what that young man did?
MCENANY: Why were these 44 e-mails deleted?
RYE: Let's also be clear about the fact that were these Hillary Clinton's e-mails Kayleigh?
MCENANY: Were these Hillary Clinton's e-mails? These were her top aides.
RYE: No, but I think that's important. Because what we often do is we compound these things into one issue. We know, I know anyway from working on "The Hill" that oftentimes staffers act on behalf of their bosses when they probably shouldn't. And I'm just saying to you that it is not right to hold someone's actions over the head of someone ...
[21:15:07] MCENANY: Why would the e-mails deleted?
SELLERS: But also, but also that you just raised ... (CROSSTALK)
RYE: I don't know why, but I'm not going to start questioning intent. What I'm telling you is, those were not her e-mails and so we have ...
MCENANY: They were on her server.
RYE: I guess what I'm telling you Kayleigh, it's just like earlier today is really important for us not to make allegations about people that aren't actually true.
SELLERS: You raised two e-mails. One was about a Lebanese billionaire. And you said he gained access. He never had the meeting. So that's false. Number two, you raised that -- no he -- but the second part that you raised was about a young man looking for a job. You know, that young man actually did work in Haiti for the relief after the hurricane.
And so yes, if that young man needed a job who was an advancer, who wasn't a donor, who wasn't a staffer to Clinton Foundation, God forbid the young man who want to ...
MCENANY: He violated two agreements, he violated two agreements.
SETMAYER: But it goes beyond that. It goes to Huma Abedin. The fact that she had four jobs while she was at the State Department. It's a special, yes she have a special designation, special government employee designation that people can't even define exactly what it is. She work with TNYO (ph) which founded by Dough Band, she was also head of the Clinton Foundation.
It's all very incestuous there and insult, you know, people, it doesn't look good for them. And it goes back to the '90s when they paid to play with Chinese satellites and Charlie (inaudible).
RYE: All right, OK.
SETMAYER: Goes back a long time.
COOPER: We got to take a quick break.
Coming up next, with the latest on the flooding in Louisiana. Also Donald Trump's visit to the area. More on President Obama's now decision to go there on Tuesday. Lieutenant General Russel Honore has taken all that. He joins us. That more when we come back.
COOPER: President Obama's been taking political heat of course for vacation while Louisiana floods. He's going to be surveying the damage there on Tuesday after his vacation ends. It was announced today. It came shortly after Donald Trump and running mate Mike Pence made a brief stop today in Baton Rouge.
We'll be joined in moment by retired Lieutenant General Russel Honore who's loosing the area, has plenty to say about or in just the politics and the optics of disaster response.
[21:19:59] But first, Rosa Flores joins us from the scene with all the latest. So Trump was there at the Command Center where you are now. What did the visit entail?
ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well Anderson, he spent about 30 minutes here and talked to officials. He was briefed by local officials, in part told that one out of every three people in this perish are in the flood zone. And now he also got to listen in to a briefing by first responders but here's what he didn't get to do. He didn't get to go into the flooded areas to see the flood situation for himself. I asked local officials why and Anderson they said there was no time.
COOPER: And Governor John Bel Edwards saying he hoped this would not just be a photo up but instead that Trump would consider volunteering or making a sizable donation to the flood relief fund. Did he do either of those things?
FLORES: You know, no words yet about a sizable cash donation by the Trump campaign or by Donald Trump but one of the local officials during an interview did tell me that Donald Trump had donated an 18- wheeler full of supplies. I of course had to chase that down and we have exclusive video from in part from inside that 18-wheeler. The organization that received that donation, church international, told me that they received about 70,000 pounds of supplies. Anderson, it included water, non-perishable food, diapers and blankets that people here in Ascension Parish are received.
COOPER: And people there, what was their reaction to the Trump visit?
FLORES: You know, there's a lot of Trump supporters here in Ascension Parish. In the midst of the floods we saw Trump signs in front of yards and on windows. Even on fences. And from just talking to people here in these neighborhoods, a lot of people are very happy that Donald Trump visited Ascension Parish. They also said that it was a sign of leadership.
One woman Anderson, even saying that she was hoping that Trump's visit included Trump flying in his Trump helicopter and dropping off money to all of the flood victims. Now imagine what a campaign ad that would make. Anderson.
COOPER: Rosa Flores. Rosa, thanks.
Now whatever you think of President Obama's timing or Donald Trump's, one thing is clear. This is hardly the first time that such a visit has been subjected to the political microscope. From mega phone more on that now from CNN's Jean Casarez.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: August 29th, 2005. Hurricane Katrina makes landfall on the gulf coast with 127 mile per hour winds. 80 percent of New Orleans flooded after the levees failed. More than 1,800 people died in the gulf region and more than one million people were displaced by the storm.
As the reality began to unfold, then President George H. Bush, on vacation in Texas, would stay at his ranch in Crawford for two more days, deciding to go back to Washington, Bush did a fly over on August 31st allowing the press a photo up of the president looking out over the ruin. At the time Bush said he didn't want to disrupt efforts on the ground, but in 2010 admitted to NBC's Matt Lauer that photo was a mistake.
MATT LAUER, JOURNALIST: Huge mistake. It made you look so out of touch ...
GEORGE W BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Detached.
LAUER: ... and uncaring. No question about it.
CASAREZ: Total damage from Katrina was estimated at $108 billion. Damage to Bush's legacy was profound. Thirteen years earlier, a natural disaster struck during his father's presidency. It was Hurricane Andrew.
A category five storm which sustained winds of 165 miles per hour whose path included Southern Florida and South-central Louisiana. More than $25 billion in damages with controversy raging throughout the country that H.W. Bush didn't respond fast enough to the victims of this tragedy. Bush fought back, saying he wasn't going to make politics out of this natural disaster.
GEORGE HERBERT WALKER BUSH, 41ST PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This isn't the business of second guessing. It's a business of trying to help people. That's what we're about here. Not going around trying to find blame or make some politics out of a natural disaster.
CASAREZ: Unfairly or not, weather disasters can be used to attack politicians at any level. New Jersey Governor Chris Christie was commander in chief of his state when super storm Sandy hit the Northeast in 2012.
A leader for the efforts, Christie drew lasting criticism from republicans after hugging President Obama, who was visiting the state to survey hurricane damage.
BARACK OBAMA, 44TH PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: What I did was put my people first every day.
GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE,(R) NEW JERSEY: It was a disappointment probably for him that I didn't hug him, but when he got off Air Force One I did shake his hand. Which I think what civilized human beings do with other civilized human beings.
CASAREZ: Jean Casarez, CNN, New York. (END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, in addition to the political fallout, that campaign so many natural disasters that sometimes put a spotlight on individuals who cut through the noise and do what needs to be done.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[21:25:04] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Weapons down. Weapons down. I'm not going to tell you again god damn it. Get those god damn weapons down.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Army Lieutenant General Russel Honore I think charged after Hurricane Katrina impossible to forget that moment or how galonizing was to so many people. General Honore now retired, he joins us from the Baton Rouge. Thank you so much for being with us General.
When it comes to personal presidents visiting areas like Baton Rouge after a flood of this magnitude, you say there needs to be a paradigm shift. What does that mean?
RUSSEL HONORE, ARMY LIEUTENANT GENERAL: Trying to get a president in while you're doing a search and rescue, as was the case in New Orleans, would be almost impossible. We can do it, we did it, we were still in the evacuation of the city when President Bush came to visit but on the day he flew over the city Anderson, we are were still in the process of evacuating the conventions, the super dome and the convention center. You were on the ground. You remember what that's like.
HONORE: I think the term was coined well this morning by the Governor John Bel Edwards. Doing the search and rescue, we need the president to stay in Washington, empower the state and federal government to do what they can to save lives, but it's best that a president to come when we are in the recovery stage.
COOPER: It did what? Because it takes too many resources away from the search and rescue?
HONORE: Absolutely. Search and rescue, security, medical support, going in and doing secondary search of each home. You know, we have over 210,000 homes in Louisiana that's under water or was under water and over 7,300 businesses, as well as our interstate were closed for nearly four days, cutting off our eastern and western part of our state.
All that being said, the focus of this local government and the first responders have to be on saving lives. And for the blessing of volunteers, like this Cajun navy that stood up on Sandy, we were able to save most of those people's lives but only about 11 losing their lives to the storm or the flood with over 281,000 citizens evacuating.
COOPER: Yeah, it's the, I mean, amazing to see some of the rescues of I mean, not only coast guard, not only, you know, law enforcement, fish and wildlife and other law enforcement agencies, but just civilians, Cajun navy as you said getting in their boats and just reaching out.
Donald Trump did make it there today. Do you think the visit was appropriate? I mean, because you could make the argument, you know, first of all he didn't try to go to the area that was afflicted so that didn't conflict with search and rescue operations and probably brought a fair amount of attention, I guess, to the story.
HONORE: Absolutely. You know, we're at a point now Anderson, when people count the catastrophe by the number of lives lost, we need to look at it from the lives saved and the homes that happen now to be rebuilt. And we were worried for a time because this story was a second or third page story and third or fourth in the lineup, we took second seat for a couple of Olympic athletes for a 24-hour period that did something down in Brazil but they topped the news for a period when we needed to be focused on the American people for the need that is needed here in terms of the second poorest state in America hit again by a catastrophe, where we will need help because it's the volunteers and the donations that come here that help fill those gaps because FEMA staffer (ph) that really don't give enough, people enough money to get back in their homes and that's where the donations and the volunteers come in to help get people back in their homes. Anderson.
COOPER: Yeah. General Honore, I appreciated you talking to us tonight. Thank you so much.
Coming up, in election like no other how are the candidates get ready to face each other on debate stage. We'll take a look at that coming up when we return.
[21:32:42] COOPER: With the first presidential debate less than six weeks away, surely both candidates are trying to prepare for the unexpected. As we have seen over and over through the years there are some debate stage moments that cannot only win or lose voters but also go down in history. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
G.BUSH: Man's practicing fuzzy math again. There's differences.
COOPER: They are the highest stakes in presidential politics. General election debates. Watched by millions with the ability to sway key voters in the final months of the race.
Ripe with opportunity for zingers like Ronald Reagan poking fun at his own age.
RONALD REAGAN, 40TH PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I am not going to exploit for political purposes my opponent's youth and then experience.
COOPER: Or blunders like Gerald ford appearing clueless about the spread of communism.
GERALD FORD, 39TH PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There is no soviet domination of Eastern Europe and there never will be under a ford administration.
COOPER: Indeed, it's the possibility of debate missteps that worry campaigns the most. One of the most famous examples, Michael Dukakis' unemotional response to CNN's Bernard Shaw in 1988.
BERNARD SHAW, FORMER CNN NEWS ANCHOR: Governor, if Kitty Dukakis were raped and murdered, would you favor an irrevocable death penalty for the killer?
MICHAEL DUKAKI, 65TH AND 67TH GOVERNOR OF MASSACHUSETTS: No, I don't, Bernard. And I think you know that I'd opposed the death penalty during all of my life.
COOPER: Sometimes the gaffe isn't even verbal. Like George H.W. Bush looking at his watch in 1992. Or eight years later, Al Gore getting too close for comfort for George W. Bush.
G. BUSH: But can you get things done? And I believe I can.
COOPER: In the age of social media, an unfortunate turn of phrase can take on a life of its own.
MITT ROMNEY, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: That brought us binders full of women.
COOPER: One thing is certain. In the 56 years since Richard Nixon literally sweated his encounter with John F. Kennedy, debate flash points have known no partisan bounds. Then Hillary Clinton versus Donald Trump could take political prime time to a whole new level.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: For sure. Joining me, former Michigan Governor Jennifer Granholm, senior adviser for the pro Clinton Super PAC correct the record and CNN political commentator and Republican strategist Kevin Madden wh's worked from the Romney's campaign among the others, he helped with debate prepare Romney in 2012 and 2008.
[21:35:02] So Governor Granholm, did space between Clinton and Trump so much personal animosity between them, they both have such big personalities. I think it's fair to say these debates will probably be like none we've seen before.
JENNIFER GRANHOLM, PRO-CLINTON SUPER PAC: Oh, I'm certain that it will be the most well viewed, the most -- the highest number of amount of ratings ever, ever, ever all of them. But, I do think that personal animosity cannot be translated into the debate. Ultimately these candidates has to come away making people like them.
And for Donald Trump, this is going to be a bit of a challenge because he has been so harsh against her on the trail and he can't come across that harsh. And for her, she knows the policies so well. She's got to really come across with great heart because ultimately, debates are about emotion. They are not about cerebral matters. They're really about how can you connect to your gut to the people who are watching.
COOPER: Kevin, I mean, Trump's new campaign manager Kellyanne Conway said yesterday that Trump will begin debate prep this weekend. The fact that he's starting to prepare just six weeks before the first debate, is that time enough, in your opinion, because I seem to recall also reading weeks ago they were claiming that there were debate coaches or debate preppers on the plane with him kind of coaching him already, but I don't know, maybe not.
KEVIN MADDEN, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Yeah. I'd say, it's slightly behind schedule but given, you know, some of how this campaign has been organized, I think it's a good sign for Trump supporters that the candidate is putting some effort into this -- into the debate prep right now. And I think it's probably a sign that Kellyanne Conway is professionalizing a lot of the internal organization of the campaign.
And look, it's very important because this is going to be one of those very rare moments, and the Governor is right, where you have this concentrated attention by the electorate on the candidates and where you get to compare the candidates side by side for the first time. Forget about the ads, forget about the speeches, forget about the dueling sound bites on television. This is two candidates onstage and they have this contest where it's a performance of attributes, it's a contest of whether or not they know the policy or not and voters take a lot away from these.
So given the fact that, you know, Trump is going to be trying to change the trajectory of his campaign by the time he gets to these debates, it's going to be very important for them to put the effort in.
COOPER: Governor Granholm, I know -- I mean, having been on the moderator side, you know, when you're planning out what questions do you -- it's like sort of predicting a future game of three-dimensional chess with any number of permutations of moves. Is it the same way for the candidates? I mean, when you're ...
COOPER: It is?
GRANHOLM: Totally. Yes. Yes. Absolutely.
COOPER: If your opponent says this, well, I'm going to say this, and I can pivot to this?
GRANHOLM: Absolutely. Absolutely. So, you know, A, you have to predict what is the moderator likely to ask, right? And knowing how moderators have been, I mean, they've been tough. You've been tough on these candidates. So you have to pretend you know or you have to anticipate the worst question you could possibly get, you have to practice your answer for that subject area. And then, you've got to pivot in some way to what your opponent is not doing in that area or what the opponent's policy is. And if you can, you should have a pocketful of zingers to be able to go after your opponent. And if you are really good, you will have studied your opponent's common phrases, common answers to questions like this, what you expect that he will say or she will say and your zinger will sort of pick up the language of your opponent in some way. You should be able to prepare enough to know exactly what he's going to say and what your responses too.
COOPER: And yet, Kevin with some candidates, it's possible to kind of over prepare them, give them too much facts and too many things rather than kind of letting them lead with their strength. Isn't it?
MADDEN: That's right. It is a big risk that you sometimes, you know, a lot of times you have to tailor the debate. You can't use a template. Every candidate is very different. Some candidates work very well with a lot of planning, with a lot of prep, lot of input. Other candidates, if you prepare them too much and you overload them with too much information, they can go into a campaign with a pre- packaged zinger that falls flat for the simple fact it was prepackaged, so.
MADDEN: A lot of this, a very well-prepared candidate won't find -- won't be surprised by any of the questions, but they will have -- having practiced it, having gone through the sort of game day atmosphere of the preparation. They will be much more at ease with letting their true personality and letting a lot of what candidates really like -- what a lot of voters really like about them shine through in those moments.
COOPER: Right. That's going to be fascinating.
GRANHOLM: And they will, Anderson, too. They will make sure they have -- they know what the zingers are going to be against them. What is their opponent likely to come at really hard? And in that practice, you better believe they're going to do it over and over again so it sort desensitizes them so they can respond appropriately.
COOPER: Right. It fascinates. Kevin Madden, thank you, Governor Granholm as well.
[21:39:58] Up next, why Milwaukee was a powder keg waiting to explode when violence erupted last weekend and after a fatal police shooting, and why other cities may see the same thing.
COOPER: Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump are both pledging support for law enforcement. Each met with police this week, each discussed the tension between officers and the communities they serve. No doubt about it. In Milwaukee there's a rocky relationship between police and African-Americans.
Just last weekend and as you know, Wisconsin's largest city was rocked by violence following an officer's fatal shooting of an arm black man. According to the city leader, there have been tensions simmering in Milwaukee for years.
Sara Sidner tonight, reports.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everyone felt it, they not think everyone knew that it was inevitable.
SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Milwaukee Alderman, police training said the destructive, reaction in this predominantly black neighborhood wasn't just over the police shooting. One of the triggers was something much more mundane. The targeting and ticketing practices of police.
KHALIF RAINEY, MILWAUKEE ALDERMAN: There are instances where tickets are issued and they should be, but there are some practices that are predatory.
TAWANA BRIDGES, MILWAUKEE RESIDENT: I see the police and I'm like oh, Lord, not today
SIDNER: Mother of five, Tawana Bridges says she was caught in a cycle of ticketing hell. Missed payments of fines for things like a broken taillight or parking tickets ballooned into a personal crisis.
BRIDGES, Sometimes I don't have the extra $50 that they need me to send in but if I don't send it, then there's a warrant out for my arrest, they'll suspend the license. So either way it goes, as I'm in a lose-lose situation.
[21:45:04] SIDNER: Molly Gena of Legal Action of Wisconsin says black and poor residents are bearing the brunt of the city's ticketing practices. A 2011 study found that while blacks make up 19 percent of registered drivers in Milwaukee County, they received 69 percent of license suspensions for failure to pay fines. That far outweighs every other ethnicity combined.
MOLLY GENA, LEGAL ACTION OF WISCONSIN: My clients, you know, and so many of them lose their license for poverty related reasons.
SIDNER: If it all sounds familiar, it should. After a police shooting led to protests and riots in Ferguson, Missouri, a Department of Justice investigation blamed the disproportionate ticketing and fining of black residents there as the underlying catalyst for the unrest.
ERIC HOLDER, ATTORNEY GENERAL: The city realized wants the police force to serve essentially as a collection agency for the municipal court rather than as a law enforcement entity.
SIDNER: After a consent decree, Ferguson changed, its municipal court now makes just a fraction of what it used to make from fines, but a new class action lawsuit accuses 13 cities surrounding Ferguson of the same practice policing for profit on the backs of black and poor people. Nonprofit Arch City defenders brought the sue claiming a total of $77 million was collected over a five-year period by those 13 cities for municipal court fines, fees and surcharges in an area with a population of less than 50,000 people.
THOMAS HARVEY, ARCH CITY DEFENDER: At some point, if you jailed someone, you know that they don't have the ability to pay, right because we would all pay.
SINDER: Nobody wants to sit in jail.
HARVEY: Right, I mean you're essentially asking someone how much money do you have to buy your freedom.
SIDNER: The cities have balked at the accusations that they created debtors' prisons. One African-American mayor in one of those cities, told me that driving is a privilege, not a right. If you don't want to pay a fine, he said, don't break the law.
PAT KELLY, MUNICIPAL LEAGUE OF METRO ST.LOUIS: It's not the policeman's, fault for enforcing the law.
SIDNER: Pat Kelly leads an association of municipalities in St. Louis County and says while the system should be scrutinized, many of the problems could be solved if residents would simply show up to court.
KELLY: You know, these are the laws of the state that they're enforcing and those warrants and those kinds of things are built into law to try to get people to come to court.
SIDNER: Alderman Rainey is watching what's happening in Missouri and calling for change in Milwaukee, warning without it, the eruption of anger will reappear.
RAINEY: I see devastation. I see something that I hope we never see ever again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SIDNER: And Alderman Rainey says it is very clear this is of course not the only reason why these tensions have bubbled over. He talks about the fact that in Milwaukee, the disparities with African- American versus white residents are stark. When we're talking about unemployment and poverty and then there's this, Anderson, the state of Wisconsin jails more African-American men than any other country in America. More than double the national average, Anderson.
COOPER: All right, Sara, Sidner, Sara, thanks for the report.
In a moment, the wild saga of American heiress Patty Hearst, one of the strangest cases in FBI history. It's the focus of a great new book by Jeffrey Toobin. I'll talk it over with Toobin coming up next.
[21:51:36] COOPER: In February 1974, a crime was committed that made headlines in history, the kidnapping of wealthy young women who turn into gun caring radical, Patty Hearst, she was granddaughter of the newspaper tycoon William Randolph Hearst.
How did she went from a kidnapping victim to a domestic terrorist and convicted felony or shoot out with the police for bank robberies and more is the focus of a really compelling new book, American Heiress: Tthe Wild Saga of the Kidnapping Crimes and Trial of Patty Hearst. It's by our Jeffrey Toobin, our senior legal analyst, it's already in "New York Times" best seller, I've read it, it's a really fascinating to read, Jeff and I recently spoke about the book.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: So congratulations on the book.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, AUTHOR "AMERICAN HEIRESS": Thank you.
COOPER: I'm half through it so it's such a fascinating read. I mean first of all, America at that time, it was such a different America, I mean we think about this as a partisan time but how many bombings were there in the early 70's of America?
TOOBIN: This is the thing that really shocked me on working on the book. I thought the 60's were tumultuous. The 70's were so much worse. A thousand bombings a year, just think about that a thousand bombings a year.
COOPER: And it wasn't just one year, like '73.
TOOBIN: In '74, '75 all through the early and mid 70's, you know, that was a form of political expression. And you had Watergate and the energy crisis and especially in northern California, you had the zodiac killer.
TOOBIN: You had the zebra killers. I mean this was in ugly, ugly time in the Hearst kidnapping in a way that right in.
COOPER: Patricia Hearst gets kidnapped by this group, the Symbionese Liberation Army. Who were they? And explain, I mean they weren't much of an army, it was a pretty red tag bunch misfits.
TOOBIN: They thought that they were going to model themselves after, sort of the other revolutionary groups around the world, the Tupamaros in Uruguay, the Redrogates (ph) in Italy and they though they would spark a revolution in the United States by certain dramatic guerrilla activities. It was a completely absurd hypothesis.
COOPER: I mean there's always been this question of, you know, ultimately, within a relatively short period of time and several months, she seemed to become part of the group. I mean, she publicly said she was part of the group, she took part in the bank robbery, she made these tape recordings. Was she brainwashed?
TOOBIN: She called herself Tanya, which I think a lot of people remember.
COOPER: Tanya who was a girl friend of, I guess of Jake?
TOOBIN: Of Jake Rivara. I try to stay away from words like brainwashing, Stockholm syndrome, those are not medical terms, those are journalistic terms. My view is, she was kidnapped, it was a horrible, traumatic event for her but then she did in fact become a member of the Symbionese Liberation Army.
When you look at the number of crimes that she committed, everybody remembers the bank robbery from which she was convicted, the Hibernia Bank which was just a little more than two months accurate.
COOPER: I know legendary photo which we can show in right now.
COOPER: It was sort of that was the announcement to the world that she was part of the group.
TOOBIN: Right and that picture, you know, I tell the story of how that picture came to be and one reason I think that picture is so compelling even today is that you look into her face, you look in her eyes in those pictures and you can't tell.
COOPER: Right, it's like you describe it as like the Mona Lisa.
COOPER: That should of -- is she smiling? I s she, heart like is she, you don't know what's going on in her mind.
[21:55:03] TOOBIN: Right and that's the mystery at the heart of this story, what's really going on in her mind. But I think what was the real revelation to me in writing this book was that not that she robbed this bank is that she robbed two more banks, that she shut up a street in Los Angeles. She was alone.
COOPER: To rescue, to rescue it was an event to rescue two of the other members of the group who were being attacked.
TOOBIN: Who were being stopped for shoplifting.
TOOBIM: And talk about what geniuses these people were, to shoplift when you were a fugitives from the law. But that's what they did in Patricia Hearst seating alone in a van, seized her to comrades and trouble, what does she do? Does she run away, does he go return to her family? Does she go to the police? Does she go to a hospital? No, she picks up a machine gun and shoots up the street in Los Angeles, miraculously, hitting no one but three of her two comrades, Bill and Emily Harris, and that to me is really the turning point of this story because that's when she becomes a full pledged fugitive and revolutionary and it's more than a year until she's actually caught by the FBI. COOPER: It's a really fascinating book, "American Heiress," Jeffrey Toobin again, thanks you so much.
TOOBIN: Thanks a lot.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: And that I've finished the book, I tell you, it's a, its really a great, great to read, knowing that the whole trial, F. Lee Bailey and all this like Judge Lance Ito was one of the witness at one point, long before he became a judge. It's fascinating. We'll be right back.
[22:00:09] COOPER: That's it's for us. That hour time now, the CNN Original Series, "The Eighties".