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Donald Trump Doubling Down on Charges against Hillary Clinton; Trump Flip-Floping on Immigration; Difficulty of Building a Wall Across the Border. Aired 10-11p ET.

Aired August 25, 2016 - 22:00   ET


[22:00:00] ANDERSON COOPER, AC360 SHOW HOST: And that does it for us tonight. Thanks for watching. CNN Tonight with Don Lemon starts now.

DON LEMON, CNN TONIGHT SHOW HOST: Breaking news. Donald Trump doubles down on his most incendiary charge against Hillary Clinton.

This is CNN Tonight. I'm Don Lemon.

In an exclusive interview with CNN, Trump tells our Anderson Cooper this.


DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Her policies are bigoted because she knows they're not going to work.

COOPER: You're saying she's personally bigoted.

TRUMP: She is. Of course, she is.


COOPER: She herself.

TRUMP: Her policies there. Her policies, she comes out with the policies and others that believe like she does also.


LEMON: Clinton firing back at a campaign rally in Reno.


HILLARY CLINTON, (D) U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Donald Trump has built his campaign on prejudice and paranoia. He is taking hate groups mainstream and helping a radical fringe take over the Republican Party.


BOLTON: Here to discuss all of this, CNN's Dana Bash and Jeff Zeleny, also Ryan Lizza, the Washington correspondent for The New Yorker, and Bob Cusack, editor-in-chief of The Hill. Good to have all of you this evening. Let's get started with Trump

speaking to CNN's Anderson Cooper today. He's standing by his claim that Clinton is a bigot.


COOPER: You called last night Hillary Clinton a bigot. Previously you called her policies bigoted. You directly called her a bigot. And...


TRUMP: She is a bigot. Because you look at what's happening to the inner cities, you look at what's happening to African-Americans and Hispanics in the country where she talks all the time. She's talking. Look at the vets where she said the vets are being treated essentially just fine, that it's over exaggerated what's happening to the vets not so long ago.

COOPER: So, she's bigoted. Bigoted and it's because is having hatred toward a particular group.


TRUMP: Well, because she's telling them down the tube. Because she's not doing anything for those communities. She talks a good game...


COOPER: You think she has hatred or dislike?

TRUMP: Her policies are bigoted. Her policies are bigoted because she knows they're not going to work.

COOPER: You're saying she's personally bigoted.

TRUMP: She is, of course she is. Her policies there. Her policies. She's comes out with the policies and others that believe like she does also. But she came out with policies over the years. This is over the years, long time, she totally bigoted. There is no question about that.

COOPER: That doesn't imply that she doesn't -- she has antipathy she has hatred towards in this case I guess you come right after her.


TRUMP: I think she -- I think she has been extremely, extremely bad for African-Americans, I think she's been extremely bad for Hispanics. You look at what's happened with her policies and the policies of President Obama and others. Look at the poverty, look at the rise in poverty. Look at the rise in violence.

COOPER: So, hatred is at the core of that?

TRUMP: O I said, no, or maybe she's lazy.


LEMON: Dana Bash, what's your reaction?

DANA BASH, CNN'S CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: You know, Donald Trump likes to be incendiary and using a word like bigot, it just is. It just is. I think as we were talking about it last night, there's little question in my mind that he's using this word because she, Hillary Clinton, has effectively called him racist or saying that he used -- he has -- you know, there are racist things that he and his people have said and it made him angry. And he's using his word.

Now, he's trying to obviously make it about her policies and not her personally and Anderson did a great job pushing him for specifics, which he didn't give. But the fact that he wound up with lazy and started with bigot, which are very, very different words, I think it gives you a sense of how he's trying to figure out and explain and define what he means.

LEMON: Bob, I want to know what think about this. But let me read this. This is the definition of a bigot that Dana and I were looking up here when the show started.

A person who strongly and unfairly dislikes other people, ideas, et cetera. A bigoted person, especially a person who hates or refuses to accept the members of a particular group such as a racial or a religious group. This is a definition fit to Hillary Clinton or her policies?

BOB CUSACK, THE HILL EDITOR-IN-CHIEF: Well, I don't think -- I think Trump over steps his bounce here. I mean, we're not talking about the policy -- you can make the argument that these policies aren't working for a certain group of people, whether it's regional whether it by ethnicity.

But we're talking about that word, that loaded word. And when Anderson Cooper pressed Trump on personally bigoted, he did double down. And that's what we're talking about.

And this is just after Kellyanne Conway, the new campaign manager who I think is actually doing quite a good job for Donald Trump that saying no more name calling, we're seeing some name calling. So, I think that Donald Trump...


LEMON: But, listen, I have to push back on you to that because according to the correspondent who was there and it's Jim Acosta I believe, so that that word was in the teleprompter. Wouldn't his new campaign manager have signed off on that?

CUSACK: You would you think. That's interesting. I think that if it was in the teleprompter, then I think that's a mistake. Because basically Hillary Clinton has had a tough week, especially with the Clinton Foundation, e-mail controversy continuing and Donald Trump is stepping on her rough week and making his end of the week very difficult. [22:05:04] LEMON: Ryan, is this kind of name calling going to help

Trump gain new minority voters?

RYAN LIZZA, THE NEW YORKER CORRESPONDENT: Calling Hillary Clinton a bigot? I doubt it. I mean, look, other republicans who have made arguments that liberal or democratic policies are not good for certain minority communities back it up with some policy, right?

Remember the famous line that George W. Bush used, "the soft bigotry of low expectations," now it was a description of democratic education policy and he argued that his view of how the federal government should be involved in education was superior and would be better for non-white groups.

That's the thing that I thought was so strange about the interview with Anderson is he pushed him and pushed him and pushed him and there was no detail. There was no here's the policy that Hillary Clinton has that isn't helping minority communities.

And look, there's a whole, you know, book shelf of policies he can grab from conservatives in the Republican Party if he wanted to have that debate and he didn't.

I want to pause one of my favorite lines from that interview is when he was talking about the V.A. and he said that Hillary Clinton over exaggerated, which I think is a great Trumpism. His exaggeration which is OK.


LIZZA: But it's over exaggeration that can get you in trouble.

LEMON: Yes. And for our -- my conversation with Bob this morning I do have to say on New Day, Bob, Kellyanne Conway said that Trump uses his own words. So, you know, I would imagine that he wanted to say that, and so...


CUSACK: He's the -- I mean, he's the boss. There's no doubt about it. She can advise something but Trump is making final decisions. That's been clear from when he launched his campaign June of last year.

LEMON: Yes. To you now, Jeff, Clinton giving, you know, this big speech today tying Donald Trump to extremists and racist groups. Let's listen to part of it.


CLINTON: From the start, Donald Trump has built his campaign on prejudice and paranoia. He is taking hate groups mainstream and helping a radical fringe take over the Republican Party.

His disregard for the values that make our country great is profoundly dangerous. A man with a long history of racial discrimination, who traffics in dark, conspiracy theories drawn from the pages of supermarket tabloids and the far dark reaches of the internet...


... should never run our government or command our military.


Ask yourself if he doesn't respect all Americans, how can he serve all Americans?


LEMON: So, Jeff, the goal here, what was it and did she accomplish it?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Well, in many respects the goal was to stop any pivot that may be going on this week, stop any confusion that may be out there in voters in terms of where Donald Trump stands to try and freeze this race in place in August.

We're not going to know if she accomplished that for a while. We're not going to know if she -- if this speech was effective until it really settles into, you know, the ethos and people absorb it.

But I think what he did do is, a, change the subject, which she needed to and, b, really shined a light as only a candidate can. She's had advisers out talking about this, talking about Steve Bannon, his new adviser and the 'alt-right.'

But to have another nominee out there making this case in a very serious and weighty speech, I think she elevated this conversation and really was reaching out to republicans and sort of grabbing them and saying look, look what's happening to your party.

I was in the room in the speech today and was struck by how she used very specific references to Bob Dole, for example. She said in 1996 at the convention he said any racist should exit the building.

George W. Bush embraced Muslims after 9/11. John McCain he shut down any criticism of people questioning Barack Obama's faith. She said look, republicans, this is not your nominee, this is a fringe existence of the party.

So, I was actually struck by the fact she was speaking to republicans as old, you know, a Goldwater gal, former Goldwater gal was speaking to republicans. Now the question is are they listening? Is she a credible messenger on this? But she injected this into the bloodstream here in a very serious way.

LEMON: OK. Listen, I thought that this could have been our lead this evening, there was so much to go on, Dana Bash, because Donald Trump was asked about support from white supremacists in an interview with CNN affiliate WMUR.

I want everyone to listen here. Here it is. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[22:10:04] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She's trying to turn this around on you now saying you're bringing a hate movement mainstream. Do you want white supremacists to vote for you?

TRUMP: No, I don't, not at all. And I will tell you this is not about hate, it's about love. We love our country. We want our country to come back, we want our country to be strong again.


LEMON: Where was that six months ago, eight months ago, a year ago, when, you know, not denouncing immediately of David Duke and one and on and on, the people at his rallies, where was that?

Because many people have been waiting on that, people who Jeff mentioned earlier.

BASH: Yes. It was sitting and waiting for the general election. The republican primary had to end, which has happened. Perhaps he needed to have a new team with the likes of Kellyanne Conway, which has happened.

You know, he's in this mode right now of this is his strategy at this point, trying to reach out, trying to say that he can do better by minority voters than the democrats who are their more natural consistency or more natural party can.

So, when somebody asks him, do you want the vote of a white supremacist, if he would have said yes, I mean, game over.

LEMON: Right.

BASH: So, game over for that particular -- this particular strategy and his campaign.

LEMON: But instead he said nothing then but now he's saying no.


LEMON: That I don't want that. I mean, Ryan, we discussed this, we've been discussing this the entire time when those issues have been coming up.


LEMON: It's what many people have wanted to hear. Is this too little too late or do you think this is effective now? Because I think that's actually a big, big change, and an important change right there.

BASH: I agree.

LIZZA: Look, I think his outreach to minorities, to minority groups is a very steep climb. If you look at the polling with Hispanic voters, he's getting in the teens or 20 percent whereas, Mitt Romney won 20 percent -- 27 percent of Hispanics, with the African-American community he's getting 1 percent to 5 percent.

And as Hillary Clinton laid out in great detail today, details that there are reasons that those communities are not that fond of his candidacy.

So, I don't think that he will turn this all around by telling one reporter that he rejects the votes from white supremacists, especially when, well, let's be honest, the new CEO of his campaign ran a web site, that is the sort of link between a, you know, more -- I don't want to say mainstream conservatism.

But, you know, Breitbart was a site that mainstream conservatives at least read and it was the link between a real fringe view, the 'alt- right,' this racialist philosophy. And, you know, Bannon's career at Breitbart really was bringing that in and making it a little bit more acceptable in the conservative movement.

And I don't know. Look, I'm a white guy but if I were -- if I were a minority, I would be looking at that and scratching my head and not really thinking that just because Donald Trump says he doesn't want the votes of white supremacists, that that's enough. I t think he's got a lot of work to do.

LEMON: You're a white guy? Oh, my gosh.


LEMON: I didn't know that.

LIZZA: I've been told that.


BASH: That should been the lead.

LEMON: That should have been the lead story tonight. All right. Moving on, so we've talked about race, we'll continue to talk about it, but we haven't gotten to immigration yet. What's his plan? Do you understand it? We'll discuss that. Coming up.


LEMON: Tonight in a CNN exclusive, Donald Trump going back to his original campaign decision saying there won't be any path for the legalization for undocumented immigrants.

Back now with me, Dana Bash, Ryan Lizza, and Bob Cusack. We sent Jeff Zeleny back to the campaign trail. He's got a lot of work to do.

BASH: He does.

LEMON: So, lots o talk about that Trump softening his immigration, that's a quote, "immigration policy." But he told Anderson Cooper tonight his position is actually hardening. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: We're going to end sanctuary cities, we're going to run a country like it's supposed to be run. We're going to have borders, very strong borders. And after that we're going to see what happens, but we are going to find people and we're getting -- immediately and I mean, first hour of -- the first document I will sign will say get the bad ones out of this country, bring them back where they came from.

COOPER: But I know, you know, I have to follow up. You ask on, you sat on Hannity, you used the word softening even last night in Hannity you talked about...


TRUMP: Well, I don't think it's a softening. I think it's...


COOPER: But 11 million people are no longer going to be deported.

TRUMP: I think I've had people say it's hardening actually.

COOPER: But 11 million who have not committed a crime...

TRUMP: No, no. Then going to see...

COOPER: ... that there's going to -- there's going to be a path to a legalization, is that right?

TRUMP: You know it's a process. You can't take 11 at one time and just say, boom, you're gone.

COOPER: If they haven't committed a crime, is there going to be a path to legalization?


TRUMP: The first thing we're going to do...

COOPER: I'm talking about the citizenship?

TRUMP: No, there is not a pass -- there is no path to legalization, unless people leave the country.


COOPER: We're talking about the facts on Hannity.

TRUMP: Well, when they come back in, if they come back in, then they can start paying taxes.


COOPER: But they still have to leave this country.

TRUMP: But there is no path to legalization unless they leave the country and come back. COOPER: So, if you haven't committed a crime and you've been here for

15 years, and you have a family here and you have a job here, will you be deported?

TRUMP: We're going to see what happens once we strengthen up our border. We're going to have a strong border, as strong as any border that there is anywhere in the world. We're going to have a real wall, we're going to have tremendous protection, both technological protection and everything else, and then we're going to see what happens. But there's a very good chance the answer could be yes.


LEMON: So, it seemed like he was as they say softening, just changing his position because that's their word. The actual thing is they were changing their position, then now saying to Anderson that he's going back to amnesty. What is going on here, do you understand?

BASH: It just seems like yesterday that he was saying that people should be able to stay here legally -- oh, wait, it was actually yesterday that he was saying that.

But it was a year ago when he started his campaign that he started to say, I mean, he had a very hard line rhetoric. But beneath that the policy that, you know, I unearthed, you unearthed, Anderson and others who interviewed him going through all the details was pretty much what he said to Anderson tonight, which is everybody's got to go, people who have criminal records, people who don't, who have, you know, upstanding parts of society...


LEMON: Everybody say they can come back in.

BASH: ... and those can come back in.

LEMON: Right.

BASH: Which is, again, where he started out. So, it's really unclear where, what he's doing or where he's going with this, which, you know, is understandable if you look at the complexity of the policy, but maybe not so much since this is his core, core issue.

[22:20:08] And the one that he says over and over again really propelled his campaign from day one.

LEMON: There's been a lot of, sort of, you know, pretzel, I don't know if you would call it logic, Bob, but just people trying to twist himself into saying that he's not changing, but this is nuance. It's a change.

But the question is, his core, this has been one of his core issues. And the core group that is supporting him, are they going to tolerate this type of change? Because this is what he's been running on since the beginning. CUSACK: I think so but it also depends on how he does it. In politics

it's all about how you do it. And Trump did say something this week where he has been approached, he said by a number of Hispanics who said they liked him, but they had problems with the deportation policy.

I think he's going to be talking about then, instead of denying that this is a change. It's clearly a change. We don't have the details of it. And he's got to iron out some of these details.

But I think for his ardent supporters, just reiterating, I'm not changing the wall. That's the center piece of it. However, at the same time, are people going to be upset? Yes. Are they going to vote for Hillary Clinton? No.

LEMON: Yes. Where else do they have to go. I mean, Ryan, he's beginning to sound a lot more like some of the -- like most of his primary opponents. Is that intentional do you think to broaden his support?

LIZZA: I don't know. I mean, he's basically since I've been trying to follow this pretty closely. He's basically had three positions over the last year, right. The original position which is he's back to tonight essentially is you got to leave but can you come back, right?

And you can leave on your own, you know, we'll deport the criminals but everyone else has got to go and then maybe they can come back and it's, you know, it's sort of, I suppose maybe a middle ground.

Then the much, much more hardline policies he took in the peak of the primaries, which was I'm modeling this on Eisenhower's, you know, little known operation wetback -- you know, excuse the term but that's what it was called -- where he's going to have so-called deportation force and round up 11 million people and forcibly kick them out of the country, right?

And then earlier this week, we had a complete switch, which was maybe there will be some process by which people don't even have to go back home, they will not be forcibly taken from their homes...


LEMON: We'll work with them, they've got to pay taxes.

LIZZA: So, go back -- we'll work with them. And now he's back to the, you know, the sort of the touchback -- the touchback amnesty position. He's got to lay it out. He's got to give that speech, he's got to put out some paper and tell us in detail what his policy is. Otherwise, it's just us trying to, you know, it's like reading golden trails or something.

LEMON: Here's Jeb Bush today. Take a listen.


JEB BUSH, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, I can -- I can only say that whatever his views are this morning, they might change this afternoon and they were different than they were last night and they'll be different tomorrow.

So, I can't comment on his views because his views are -- they seem to be ever changing depending on what crowd he's in front of. It sounds like a typical politician, by the way, where you get in front of one crowd and say one thing and then say something else to another crowd that may want to hear a different view.

All the things that Donald Trump railed against, he seems to be morphing into. Kind of disturbing. I don't know what to believe about a guy who doesn't believe in things. I mean, he doesn't -- this is all a game. He doesn't -- his views will change based on the feedback he gets from a crowd or, you know, what he thinks he has to do.


LEMON: Typical politician. I mean, I'm wondering, Dana, if, you know, people are going to look at it as sour grapes from the primary but he does have a point that he is basically he has, sort of saying what Jeb Bush has said.

BASH: Yes.

LEMON: But then he has also changed his position a number of times. That's just the truth.

BASH: It is the truth. And I cannot even imagine, Jeb Bush is probably pounding his head against the wall at this point. Never mind Jeb Bush but other people like Lindsey Graham and, you know, sort of the most of the wide range of 17 -- 16 other candidates who ran against Donald Trump.

On the policy, but more importantly, even someone like Ted Cruz, who you can argue his immigration policy was even more conservative or hardline than Donald Trump's, the argument there is that he was making for months and months and months is warning conservatives he's not really one of you.

He just became a conservative like a minute ago and you can't really trust that he's going to stick to what he's saying, despite how great it sounds.

That is the frustration with a lot of these former candidates and the people who worked for them wondering, wait a minute, did the party get, you know, get conned?

LEMON: Yes. Get hijacked. I have to ask you, well, you said conned. And that's an important word. I -- you spoke with his new campaign manager this weekend and she said that the deportation of course was 'to be determined.'

BASH: Correct.

LEMON: Does this show a disconnect between him and his new team? [22:24:56] BASH: No. I think it's -- my sense is in my reporting is

that -- is that it's because he is working through this because of the new team and that -- and that it's not as kind of -- his immigration policy isn't where it was, you know, a year ago or at least he's thinking about moving it because of his new team.

His new team, many of whom worked on immigration policy in the past, worked on more not comprehensive immigration reform but the idea of trying to reach out to non-white voters and how critical it is to reach out to non-white voters if you want to be president of the United States. He can't win with just -- with just white guys. He just, he can't.

LEMON: Yes. I wonder how much of this is -- I wonder if people are -- I wonder of this is real and how much of it is polling, you know, because the polls show a certain way I've got to do this or how much is it of I am committed to this and this is what I want. What do you think?

BASH: I think it's a combination...


LEMON: This is what I believe in, I should say.

BASH: No, I know, I think it's a combination of both. Remember, he didn't have a pollster during the whole primaries.


BASH: I mean, he looked at public polling and that's it. Now he does have a pollster who happens to be his campaign manager, who is probably talking him through what you need to do, which is data based and it is based on polls, which is something that he cares a lot about.


BASH: So, I think that the two are not mutually exclusive.

LEMON: That's different. I have to get -- Dana, thank you very much. So, the rest of you guys, you guys will be back. So, you'll get to discuss this. Much more coming up.

Up next, Trump versus Trump. He admits he's does better when he stays on message but says he's still wants to do things his own way. We're going to see what his former campaign manager says about it.

[22:30:00] DON LEMON, CNN TONIGHT SHOW HOST: Donald Trump backtracking tonight, ruling out any pathway to legalization for undocumented immigrants.

I want to talk about this now with a former Trump campaign manager Corey Lewandowski, who is still receiving severance from the Trump campaign and as a CNN political commentator; and Guy Cecil, the co- chair and chief strategist at Priorities USA, a super PAC supporting Hillary Clinton.

Hello, gentlemen. Thank you coming on this evening. Here is what Trump Anderson Cooper about his immigration plan tonight.


ANDERSON COOPER, AC360 SHOW HOST: So, if they haven't committed a crime, is there going to be a path to legalization?


DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The first thing we're going to do...

COOPER: I'm talking about the citizenship?

TRUMP: No, there is not a pass -- there is no path to legalization, unless people leave the country.

COOPER: We're talking about the facts on Hannity.

TRUMP: Well, when they come back in, if they come back in, then they can start paying taxes.


COOPER: But they still have to leave this country.

TRUMP: But there is no path to legalization unless they leave the country and come back.


LEMON: OK. Corey, so, first Donald Trump swore that he would deport 11 million undocumented immigrants. You were with his campaign when he did that. Then he said he was going to allow exceptions to let some stay, that was just earlier this week, if not yesterday. It sounds different than, again, tonight what he's telling Anderson. So, help us understand this issue. Where is he on it?

COREY LEWANDOWSKI, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think he's where he's always been. What he said was first and foremost we're going to build a wall, we're going to stop the people from coming into the country. That's the first thing he's going to do.

The second thing is, he's going to do it humanely but he's going to put Americans first. And what that means very clearly is, if you're here illegally, he's going to work with CVP, identify who that is.

And what he's saying is there no path retroactively if you're in this country illegally. These are the words right out of his mouth; he's very clear about it. There's no ambiguity, he said if you're here illegally, you've got to go. Easy.

LEMON: OK. And so, you think that's the same thing as he's always said? It's not the same thing he always said. He didn't -- what you just said is not what Donald Trump said from the very beginning. He said everyone has to go and they can come back in legally.

LEWANDOWSKI: That's right. That's what he said

LEMON: But he's not saying that now. Then he said...


LEWANDOWSKI: Well, that's what he said to Anderson.

LEMON: Then he said we're going to work with them and they're going to have to pay taxes.

LEWANDOWSKI: That's right.

LEMON: And then today, to Anderson he said, no, they're not going to come back. So, which...

LEWANDOWSKI: No, no, he's saying they can come back but they have to come back legally.

LEMON: I'm sorry. We'll work...


LEWANDOWSKI: That's what he said. He was very clear about this.

LEMON: All right. I'm even confused about what he said because he said it just a number of different things. But you're saying it's the same, all right.

So, Trump's hardline immigration position it is what propelled him past all those candidates that were up on the stage with him for the debates in the primary campaign that you ran. Why is there so much confusion around his position on immigration now? You seem to understand it but most of America does not understand it.

LEWANDOWSKI: Well, because I've listened to what Donald Trump has had to say. And he was very clear today in New Hampshire, in Manchester with Anderson. And what he said was if you are here illegally, first and foremost what we're going to do is find out how many people that is.

Is it 11 million, is it 15 million, is it 20 million. Then there is no path forward. There is no amnesty he has said. He said you're going to have to leave the country then you come back in legally.

What he went on to say was that there are many people are in line now trying to come to the country legally, they will have the preference from those because they're trying to do it the proper way.


LEMON: So the deportation forces, that's not a change? Because he is saying there is no deportation forces. He said specifically there was a deportation force. That's not a change, Corey? LEWANDOWSKI: No, it's not a change. What he's saying is if you are in

the country legally, CVP is going to have to identify who they are and they're going to have to leave and then they can back in legally.

He's going to have to build a wall; he said this a hundred of times with a big, beautiful door so that you can come back into the country legally. The position has never changed.

LEMON: OK. So, Guy, go ahead. Do you think this is a change in position? Corey is saying it's not. He understood all along with Donald Trump, it is not changed.

GUY CECIL, PRIORITIES USA CHIEF STRATEGIST: Well, I think the only thing that has changed is some of the rhetoric when he's able to read off of Kellyanne Conway's prompter, he says one thing, and when interviewed by Anderson, he says another.

But the facts are still the same. Donald Trump is trying to persuade people that a sovereign country is going to build a wall between the United States and Mexico and then he's going to deport 11 million people.

That's been his position. It was his position in the primaries and I believe that it's actually his position now. The difference is, he's been trying in a ham handed way to cover over his late and racist comments over the course of the last year and a half by using acronyms instead of saying deportation force because he thinks it upsets moderate republicans which in fact, it does.

[22:35:05] So, I think his position is exactly the same. I just think they're trying to sugar coat with nice sounding language so that it doesn't scare a majority of Americans which clearly every single poll indicates it does.

LEMON: OK. So, let me ask you then more specifically, after saying what he said about no deportation force and getting pressure from people, saying you just can't, you know, take these people and take them away from the country if they remove them from the country if they've been here 10, 15, 20 years. Do you think that he's feeling pressure now to revert back to that hardline stance, Guy?

CECIL: Of course. And I think it actually reveals what his real opinion is. And clearly there are people inside the Trump campaign who are trying to moderate him and they're doing so unsuccessfully. Because he's force to answer questions from people like you and from people like Anderson.

Look, a Quinnipiac poll came out today that said 60 percent of the country believes that Donald Trump traffics in bigotry. A majority of independent voters believe that he traffics in bigotry.

So, clearly there's been an attempt, although again, ham-handed over the course of the last four days to appear like something different. And so, they use different language.

They take about ICE, they talk about different acronyms, they talk about people having to leave the country before they wait in a long line to reenter the country.

But really what that is creating a deportation force that will break up families, send people back to Mexico, 11 million of them. This is the same policy. They're just trying to use better sounding language in order to fool people into thinking that Donald Trump isn't trafficking in blatant bigoted comments.

LEMON: If you listen to the interview that he did, it sounds like it might be a negotiation. I would like to get your take on this, Guy, because for 14, 15 months he has stuck to the idea that all 11 million undocumented immigrants would have to go back.

And if you listen to the interview, it sounds like this is up for negotiation now. Do you think that it is up for negotiation?

CECIL: Who knows? I mean, the reality is, as was stated earlier, Donald Trump has a different way of describing something every time he's asked in an interview. But he went through an entire year of running on this platform.

So, even if he was open to a change, what that means is that when he thought it was beneficial to him in a republican primary to demean and denigrate and insult Hispanics, he was fine doing so.

And now that he sees a poll that shows that 60 percent of Americans think he's bigoted, he's decided, well, maybe I should use softer language.


CECIL: Ultimately, Donald Trump believes in a deportation force. He believes in ripping apart families. He still continues to demean Hispanics not on with his actions but his words. I just don't think there's going to be a policy change. I just think we're going to hear better sounding language to describe it.

LEMON: Corey, you disagree, go ahead.

LEWANDOWSKI: Well, of course. Look, what Donald Trump believes? He believes in putting Americans first and what he believes in is building a wall so that we don't have people coming across the border and killing U.S. citizens.

I know it's a crazy idea and it's really something that Hillary Clinton doesn't support, which allowing illegals to come across our border and kill Americans.

But hey, who might have said. You know, here's the other thing. You know, Kate Steinle and her family, who is apologizing to them? Let's defund sanctuary cities. Let's stop giving convicted felons the opportunity to walk out of our prisons and kill U.S. citizens because they don't belong in this country in the first place.

Let's deport the people who are committing the major crimes here. Let's stop the gangs. Look, this is very simple. Donald Trump's philosophy has been and continues to be put Americans first. I know this is a crazy idea to some people, particularly those on the left, but this is still America.

LEMON: It sounds like you're still his campaign manager, which is -- yes, you've been there so you know how to say it. Thank you.

LEWANDOWSKI: Look, I can just tell you I know what he thinks and I think putting Americans first is what his position is.

LEMON: I understand that, Corey. Now with all due respect, but that is not -- that's what you're saying. And I understand that's what your role is here but that is not exactly what Donald Trump is saying.

But I'll give that you and that's part of the goal is that you have to sit here and explain what he has to say, as do liberals as well on their side.

So, thank you, gentlemen. Corey, you're going to be back. Thank you, Guy. I appreciate that. We're going to be right back to continue our conversation.


LEMON: Donald Trump telling our very own Anderson Cooper that he is not softening on immigration.

Back with me now Corey Lewandowski, and joining me is CNN political commentator Bob Beckel, CNN political contributor, Van Jones, Andy Dean, the former president of Trump Productions.

OK, Van, I want to go with you first and correct me if I'm wrong here, I'm going to paraphrase what you said, Corey, in the last block because I don't have time to get to it.

Corey said basically he believes that Hillary Clinton is in favor of having illegals come over and kill people. That was part of his -- of her immigration policy. How do you respond to that, Van, is that part of...


LEWANDOWSKI: Hold on. I didn't -- I didn't say she was in favor of killing Americans. What I said if you don't build the wall and prevent people from coming into our country illegally and stop the flow of illegal drugs coming in that what happens is Americans die from illegals crossing the border. That's not hyperbole, that's a fact.


LEMON: That's not -- Corey, that's not what you said. You may have meant that. I'm not dodging it. You may have meant that.

LEWANDOWSKI: Build the wall.

LEMON: That's not how it came out actually. You said...


LEWANDOWSKI: And what I said was Donald Trump was in favor of building a wall so that no more Americans die from illegals coming across the border. Absolutely.

LEMON: Corey -- go ahead, Van.

VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: The good thing about that, Corey, you said it so many times that we can -- we can say it right along with you. I appreciate your passion.

But I don't think it's fair for you to continue to act as if only conservatives care about public safety and only conservatives care about having a sane immigration policy.

The truth is that democrats and republicans have worked together and come up with, frankly, ideas that sound a little bit like some of the stuff that Trump is now saying, which is that you have to have a coherent policy.

Our problem with Trump is he said something completely different yesterday, something completely different the week before and he'll say something completely different tomorrow. Because I don't think that Trump actually has a view on immigration.

I think what Trump is a master marketer. He has tapped into some concern out there but he has not thought this stuff through and he now sounds more like Jeb Bush, who he attacked, as he did, you know, for part of today, he sounded more like Jeb Bush than he sounded like Donald Trump.

[22:45:09] This is not a play thing issue. We are dealing with real lives. There are 11 million people in this country, most of them, the vast majority of them work hard every day.

If you took them out of the country, the agricultural sector would collapse, we would lose millions of American jobs and we've got to come up with a way to keep them here and bring them out of the shadows. The demonization has to stop.

LEMON: Van, I have a short amount of time. I want to get everyone in. Andy, to you now. A lot of people who worked for Marco Rubio and Jeb Bush during the primary are accusing Trump of stealing their candidate's immigration policies. What is different about Trump's no new plan than what we heard from his rivals?

ANDY DEAN, TRUMP SUPPORTER: Well, look, everything to begin with. First, Marco Rubio was the amnesty guy. Jeb Bush, not to mention that he's a low energy guy said that illegal immigrants coming in as some sort of act of love.

Donald Trump has always been consistent. His policy is very clear, Don. We're going to get the bad dudes out first, we're going to build a wall and then there is going to be extreme vetting of radical Muslims, who Hillary Clinton. And I want to be very clear about this. Hillary Clinton wants to up the number of Syrian immigrants into this country by triple digits. That's unacceptable.



DEAN: We need extreme vetting, so that's the plan. Is Bob laughing? What's going on with you, Bob? Are you all right?

LEMON: Bob, Bob Beckel, go ahead.

BECKEL: I'm laughing because this is so ridiculous. This guy has changed his position 15 different times. He doesn't have a position. He got a pollster on board, now he's going along with what it says.

Marco Rubio is not an amnesty guy. That's a cheap shot. And, Corey, let me ask you a question, have you once since you left that campaign, one time, I'm a political analyst, I get on here and I attack Hillary Clinton when I think I have to say. You've said one thing negative about Donald Trump?

LEWANDOWSKI: Bob, if you've seen me, absolutely have. What I've also known is that Hillary Clinton...


BECKEL: Have you or have you not?

LEMON: He says he have. He says he have.

LEWANDOWSKI: I have like you said. And, Bob, I think you also know that Hillary Clinton's voting record when she was in the U.S. Senate was in favor of spending money for a fence, of what we now call a wall along the southern border of Mexico. How come her provisions have changed?


BECKEL: That's not my point.

JONES: It's not true.

LEMON: Yes, go ahead, Van.

JONES: Listen, her vote to enhance some of the securities that are down there is that -- he's talking about building the Great Wall of China, a wall that you you've never seen. Nobody voted for that because nobody was stupid enough to even propose that in the U.S. Congress in the history of the republic.

So, please don't act like Hillary Clinton is somehow like your guy. Your guy makes up stuff that please as crowd in front of him. He now have somebody else lighting something for him on a teleprompter.

LEWANDOWSKI: Look, I commend Hillary Clinton. I commend her.

DEAN: Hillary has been a politician for 40 years.

LEWANDOWSKI: van -- Van...

LEMON: Corey, go ahead.

LEWANDOWSKI: I commend -- I commend Hillary Clinton for voting for more funding for border security along the southern border...


JONES: But not the wall.

LEWANDOWSKI: ... to enhance the wall. She did -- she did vote for what they called it a fence. You called it a fence, I call it a wall. It's basically the same thing. She voted for a fence.


LEMON: OK. We're going to be back right after this.

LEWANDOWSKI: That's her border (Ph).

LEMON: But listen, we're going to talk about -- we're going to talk about later on in this hour and the next hour, our Gary Tuchman has reported it's not physically possible to even build a wall along the southern border. But we'll discuss. We'll be right back.

LEWANDOWSKI: That's not true.


LEMON: All right. Back now with my panel. We're discussing immigration. We're talking about how difficult, if not impossible, to build a wall completely across the southern border. You said it's not true, Andy Dean. Go ahead.

DEAN: Well, look, it's just not true. First off, the areas that are well-fenced right now are the ones in Southern California near the San Diego/Tijuana border and then near El Paso and Juarez.

The parts that aren't fenced well are Arizona and New Mexico. Donald Trump is a master builder, trust me. It's lot harder to get permits to build a 90-storey sky scraper in New York City than it needs to build a 30-foot wall in a rural mountainous area.

The actual construction is not complex. And who better to do it than somebody who has been building things their entire life, and that's Donald Trump.

LEMON: Well, I'm only going on the research that have been shown from structural engineers and architects and but -- go on, Bob.

BECKEL: I lived in Texas. I've been along the Rio Grande valley from one end to the other. I own land in Arizona and I've done campaigns in New Mexico. And you're just full -- you have no idea of what you're talking about.


DEAN: Bob, you can't build a wall? Why not?

The idea that -- have you ever been to -- wait a second. Have you ever been through -- have you ever been through Big Ben National Park? Can you imagine trying to put a wall through there in Texas?


DEAN: Are you saying the national park?

BECKEL: Yes. The Big Ben National Park. It runs along the border between Mexico and Texas. And then when you're down in Arizona, do you know who is not going to want to see a big wall?


LEWANDOWSKI: I think the Big Ben in London.

BECKEL: Huh? Big Ben in there. That shows you something. You don't even know what you're talking about.

DEAN: Bob -- Bob.

LEMON: Let him finish and I will let you get in Andy. Go ahead, Bob. Let Bob.

DEAN: It's not construction -- OK. My point is that...

LEMON: Andy, let him finish.

BECKEL: Andy, Andy, it's one of the great things about Trump. You take after Trump very well. You just talk over everybody, don't you?

DEAN: Thank you.

LEMON: Go ahead, Bob. Make your point. Make your point.

BECKEL: My point is that Trump is not going to build a wall. Nobody believes it feasible to build a wall through that entire area. Trump has said it because it got him some votes during the primaries.

He has no idea what he's talking about. He has no immigration policy. And now he's trying to cozy up to people who thinks he needs to move to the center. If he thinks he (Inaudible) out of this, he is crazy. They are going to beat him like a drum.

LEMON: I want -- I want Corey to get in. Because Corey, as Corey's time with us is limited, you guys are going to be here...


DEAN: They built a wall in China thousands of years ago, they did this in China. LEMON: OK. Go ahead.

LEWANDOWSKI: So, right. Look, we...


LEMON: Do you understand -- do you understand that wall in China was built by slaves and how many years it took to do that. But go ahead, Corey.


DEAN: The United States...

LEWANDOWSKI: They don't pay good wages, and the Mexicans are going to pay for it.

BECKEL: Yes, sure.

LEMON: Go ahead, Corey.

LEWANDOWSKI: Look, the United States is the greatest...

DEAN: Go ahead, Corey.

LEWANDOWSKI: ... country in the world. The United States is the greatest country in the world. We have done things that other countries only dream about.

You're telling me we can't build a wall over 2,000 miles which Trump has said on many occasions you probably only really need a thousand miles of the wall because of the topography over there.

DEAN: Right.

LEWANDOWSKI: So, I mean, what I don't understand is...


JONES: This is ludicrous. Don?

LEWANDOWSKI: ... this is a great -- look, we put a man on the moon and all of a sudden you're saying we can't build a wall? This is amazing to me. You guys are quitters. What happened to you?


LEMON: Corey, Corey, I don't know if that or the people who are discussing -- hold on, Van.


BECKEL: Just back off that couch. Just back off that.

LEMON: If the people who are discussing this and telling and saying that it is physically if not impossible are structural engineers and people who know the topography there. And even...


LEWANDOWSKI: Who? Which structural engineer?

[22:54:59] LEMON: ... recently the campaign has said that the wall is probably not going to be build, that it may have to have some sort of, I don't know, electrical or different part that is not actually physical. But, anyway, go on, Van.

JONES: But, Don, this entire conversation is completely ludicrous and here's why.

DEAN: Thank you. Thank you, Van.

JONES: The whole thing is ludicrous because, first of all...


DEAN: Van's is in favor of the wall.

JONES: Hold on a second. If you're concerned about keeping terrorists out with a wall, you might have to build one across the Canadian border because we have people come through, come from Canada who have done bad things.

The whole thing is ludicrous because fundamentally what this is it's a metaphor. They are trying to instill in the American people that everything that's wrong with America is because people are coming here from our southern border.

Latinos are coming here, they're killing you, they're raping you and they're stealing your job. They don't even mean the wall literally. What they are trying to do is appeal to a kind of racial nationalism, that's why they brought in this guy from Breitbart...

BECKEL: Right.


DEAN: No. We mean a wall.

JONES: No, hold on a second.

BECKEL: No, you do not.

JONES: So, they're trying to appeal to a racial nationalism, and they brought in one of the most despicable people in the United States. This guy Bannon, who runs one of the most racial inflammatory web sites in the world, Breitbart.

Because what they're doing is they're trying to get people to turn on each other in America rather than turn to each other in America. And the entire conversation about the wall is a false issue. This is about stoking racial fears against Latinos and it's wrong.

LEMON: All right. Corey.

BECKEL: And you know, Van, that was very well said. Can I just say...


LEMON: Quickly. I want...

DEAN: The last NBC poll has Donald Trump at 22 percent with Hispanics, 8 percent with African-Americans...


DEAN: That's double the African -- double the African-American vote that John McCain got and 50 percent more on most than Mitt Romney got four years ago.

BECKEL: I'll tell you what.

DEAN: All of a sudden he went from 1 percent to 10 percent.

BECKEL: If he gets -- if he gets more than 10 percent of the African- American vote I'll wipe your shoes for a year.

DEAN: If he gets 12 percent of the American votes he's going to win the election.


LEMON: All right, guys. Great conversation. Thank you.

BECKEL: Are you kidding me?

JONES: Don't forget (Ph) what he said.

LEMON: Thank you. Bye-bye. We'll be right back.