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AT THIS HOUR WITH BERMAN AND MICHAELA
Polls: Pence Winner of V.P. Debate; Clinton Happy with Kaine's Performance; New Forecast for Hurricane Matthew. Aired 11-11:30a ET
Aired October 5, 2016 - 11:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[11:00:08] TIM KAINE, (D), VIRGINIA & VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The thought of Donald Trump as commander-in-chief scares us to death.
MIKE PENCE, (R), INDIANA GOVERNOR & VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Hillary Clinton and Tim Kaine want to continue the policies of open borders, amnesty, catch-and-release.
KAINE: Donald Trump says Mexicans are rapists and criminals.
PENCE: You whipped out that Mexican thing again.
KAINE: Donald Trump has run a campaign that's been about one insult after the next.
PENCE: You and Hillary Clinton would know a lot about an insult- driven campaign.
KAINE: Some fool or maniac could trigger a catastrophic event. That's who Governor Pence's running mate is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Kate Bolduan.
JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: I'm John Berman.
It was the attack dog versus the dodge, deflect and deny dog. But which had the loudest bark and did it deliver a meaningful bite? That is as far as the Tim Kaine/Mike Pence dog metaphor takes us.
BERMAN: Four days from now, it is the big dogs. The rematch between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton in St. Louis, moderated by CNN's own Anderson Cooper.
And just minutes from now, we are going to hear from Governor Mike Pence. He has a rally. And this comes just 24 hours after his face- off with Senator Tim Kaine. Now, Kaine definitely led in one area -- interruptions. He repeatedly
hit Pence on some of Trump's most controversial remarks while Governor Pence either chose not to take the bait or not to defend his running mate, depending on how you look at it. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAINE: Donald Trump during his campaign has called Mexicans rapists and criminals. He's called women slobs, pigs, dogs, disgusting. He attacked an Indiana-born federal judge and said he was unqualified to hear a federal lawsuit because his parents were Mexican. He said African-Americans are living in hell and he perpetrated this outrageous and bigoted lie that President Obama is not a U.S. citizen.
PENCE: Did you all just hear that? Ours is an insult-driven campaign? I mean, to be honest with you, if Donald Trump had said all the things that you said he said, in the way you said he said them, he still wouldn't have a fraction of the insults that Hillary Clinton leveled when she said that half of our supporters were a basket of deplorables.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BOLDUAN: CNN's poll right after the debate, gives the win to Governor Mike Pence. 48 percent of those watching the debate saw that he won the debate to Tim Kaine's 42 percent.
CNN's Phil Mattingly is live in Harrisburg, Virginia, where Mike Pence is about to take the stage. Looking forward to hearing what he has to say.
But, Phil, last time, Team Trump was quick to dispute the post-debate poll that said Clinton had won. Are they disputing this one?
PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They are a little more comfortable with this result, I think. Look, there's no question about it, Kate. The team is happy about what happened last night. Mike Pence did what they wanted him to do, what they thought he needed to do coming out of the gate.
Now, there's one issue that might be popping up, and our colleague, John King, reported on this. Part of that strategy was denying or deflecting from or trying to get away from number of statements that Donald Trump has made himself. Now, going against Donald Trump has not necessarily been a fail-proof policy for Trump staffers up to this point. Mike Pence, obviously, isn't just your average Trump staffer. But it is an important dynamic to watch going forward. Mike Pence's performance was considered very successful but there are issues there that will be worth watching as we go forward -- guys?
BERMAN: All right. Phil Mattingly with that rally about to take place. We'll get back there, Phil, as soon as Mike Pence takes the stage. BOLDUAN: This morning, the Clinton campaign is also happy with Tim
Kaine's debate performance. Clinton tweeted this last night, "Lucky to have a partner like Tim Kaine who stood up for our shared vision tonight instead of trying to deny it." Clearly, a not-so-subtle hit against Mike Pence and Donald Trump.
Let's get to Sunlen Serfaty, live in Philadelphia with more reaction from Team Clinton.
Sunlen, what are you hearing?
SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Kate. Well, certainly it assumes that Hillary Clinton is pleased with her running mate's performance last night. Aides say she sent Tim Kaine an e-mail congratulating him on his debate performance. Just a few minutes ago, as Hillary Clinton was boarding her campaign plane, reporters wanted to know how she thought Tim Kaine did. She didn't answer but just gave two big thumbs up.
But certainly, as the Clinton campaign is trying to spin last night's debate and the results of last night's debate, they are really focusing in on and trying to make a big issue of the fact that Mike Pence at times did seem to dodge opportunities where he could have defended his running mate, Donald Trump.
This is something that we saw from a top Clinton surrogate this morning on "New Day," Terry McAuliffe, the governor of Virginia.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TERRY MCAULIFFE, (D), VIRGINIA GOVERNOR: I know Governor Pence very well. I serve as chairman of the National Governors Association. I work with Governor Pence. We have a good relationship. Michael Pence was in a very tough position. He cannot defend Donald Trump and he didn't defend it. As you know, he just moved off it, which, if I were Michael Pence, I would have done the same thing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[11:35:10] SERFATY: One of the other narratives coming out of late night's debate is, of course, that all these interruptions that Tim Kaine had during that 90 minutes. He interrupted about 70 times. This is something that the Trump campaign is spinning, saying that shows he's unhinged, calling him rude. The Clinton campaign, though, have a different take on it. Kate and John, they say this is just an aggressiveness that Tim Kaine brought on to last night's debate stage -- guys?
BERMAN: Sunlen Serfaty, thanks so much.
Want to bring in our panel. We're joined by Kirsten Powers, CNN political analyst, "USA Today" columnist; Bob Cusack, editor-in-chief of "the Hill" publication; Manu Raju, CNN senior political reporter; and Brett O'Donnell, the preeminent Republican debate coach on all of planet earth.
Kirsten, I want to start with you.
You saw the CNN instant poll after the debate, showing Mike Pence, with a six-point win, according to our viewers who watched that. Did you have the same view?
KIRSTEN POWERS, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes. Clearly, it was mostly a stylistic win, I think, because Pence just came off very calm and reasonable, and it was in contrast to Tim Kaine, who was very amped up, which isn't normally how he is. But it was the strategy, I guess, that the Clinton campaign, to have him play the attack dog and be attacking Donald Trump. And as Terry McAuliffe said, Pence had no choice but to pretend that he was blissfully unaware of all these things Donald Trump said and pretend he was running with somebody who actually doesn't exist. To me, it just seemed like he was -- Pence was running for his own election in 2020. He wasn't really going to double down and put himself in with Trump and he just chose to kind of not answer these questions. And I think the moderator didn't press him to say wait, hold on, he just gave a litany of things Donald Trump said and you don't seem to be defending him or pressing him. He got lucky with the debate moderator.
BOLDUAN: Manu, with Pence's performance last night, how does he help Donald Trump going forward?
MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: Well, he certainly has stopped the downward slide we saw Donald Trump go on since the last debate. Heading into this debate, they needed a positive performance, something to reset the narrative. Trump was stepping in it after the debate, getting in that prolonged fight with Miss Universe. Clearly, his positive performance gives Donald Trump something to look forward to heading into Sunday, making that argument about why the Republican ticket deserves to be elected, actually making a Republican argument about Republican philosophy and government conservative philosophy that we have not heard Donald Trump make himself.
RAJU: The question is whether or not Donald Trump can run with this. But I do think a lot of the things Mike Pence said that frankly contradicted what Donald Trump believed in, his rhetoric on the campaign trail, will be ammunition for the Clinton campaign simply to splice together things Donald Trump said and things Mike Pence denied last night.
BERMAN: On that point, Bob Cusack, because one of the things the Clinton team is saying is that Mike Pence just either didn't defend or took different views than Donald Trump on some issues.
We have an exchange that gets to that a little bit, little bit of both here. It has to do with the issue of nuclear proliferation, and Donald Trump in the past is on the record saying that Japan perhaps should get nuclear weapons, Saudi Arabia as well. There was this exchange. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) KAINE: Ronald Reagan said something really interesting about nuclear proliferation back in the 1980s. He said the problem with nuclear proliferation is that some fool or maniac could trigger a catastrophic event. And I think that's who Governor Pence's running mate is, exactly who President Reagan warned us about.
PENCE: Oh, Senator, Senator, that was even beneath you and Hillary Clinton, and that's pretty low.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: You know, again, during the debate, Mike Pence did come across as calm, measured, not taking the bait, as it were, but today, when we have this list of things, issue after issue where he either didn't defend or differ from Donald Trump, will this be a problem for the Trump campaign going forward?
BOB CUSACK, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, THE HILL: I think it's a small problem just because we are focused already on Sunday night's debate. I think Tim Kaine was a very good choice for Hillary Clinton to pick but, at the same time, he's trying to divide and conquer Pence and Trump, and Pence just wouldn't take that bait.
Also, the other thing is, Tim Kaine was too scripted last night, and Pence called him out on it, and scripted doesn't work this year. Go see Marco Rubio in the Republican primary debates where Christie called him out. So I do think Pence won. As Manu said, it's a momentum changer, but not a big one.
BOLDUAN: Brett, one of the things -- one point you made to us yesterday leading up to the debate is both of the V.P. candidates needed to make this debate about not themselves, about their running mates. Tim Kaine clearly tried to do that over and over again, making this debate about Donald Trump. Where did he succeed, where did he fail, in your eyes?
[11:10:01] BRETT O'DONNELL, REPUBLICAN DEBATE COACH & PRESIDENT, O'DONNELL & ASSOCIATES: Well, in my mind, Tim Kaine failed because he was stylistically terrible last night. He was interrupting Mike Pence. He didn't use his own style. In fact, I think he was someone different. It wasn't the Tim Kaine that we would have expected, the sort of stylistically level-headed, like Mike Pence was. So I think that was the failure. It wasn't necessarily the substance. He needed to be on the attack. But the problem was he sounded too canned, too stylistically aggressive. He was offensive.
BERMAN: Offensive rather than offense, Brett O'Donnell, with what could be a canned debate line right there. No wonder you're a good debate coach.
The RNC is already out with a video pointing out what Brett pointed out, the style and the interruptions of Tim Kaine. Let's watch few seconds of this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAINE: You --
PENCE: A heavy-handed approach.
KAINE: You have both said Vladimir Putin is a better leader.
PENCE: Well, hang on a second.
PENCE: Thank you. Thank you, Senator.
KAINE: You guys have praised Vladimir Putin as a great leader. How can you defend that?
KAINE: You paid no taxes and lost $1 billion a year.
KAINE: Donald Trump's apprentice. Let me talk about --
PENCE: Senator, she had a --
KAINE: OK, now I can weigh in.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: That number keeps on rising, Kirsten. You can take my word for it. It goes all the way to 71.
And I think Brett has a point. This was not the Tim Kaine a lot of people have seen in the public sphere for a long time. But it was clearly a choice. Tim Kaine went out with a mission last night. In a way, he sacrificed himself and, perhaps, his own public image. Was it strategically what the campaign was after?
POWERS: Well, it is what they wanted. They seem happy with it. But the thing about it is, first of all, we all know vice presidential debates don't typically swing election so that the impact from this is fairly minor. But at the same time, Tim Kaine brings something to the ticket that I think Hillary Clinton doesn't. Clearly, he's a white man and she has trouble with white male voters. He's a strong Catholic. He's a man of faith, a life-long Catholic who went on missionary trips. He brings some things to the table that she doesn't. And I would have thought they would little bit. They instead chose to really double down on the strategy of attacking Donald Trump, reminding people of all the things that he said. I tend to think that at this point in the campaign people have already heard all this but I think they have a strategy that says we are just going to keep reminding people he's not fit to be president.
BOLDUAN: Or it seems what Team Clinton wants to point out right now is, yes, Donald Trump said it and, no, Mike Pence seems to be working in an alternate universe, Manu. The RNC was quick to point out the interruptions with the video today. The Clinton campaign quickly putting out a video about the fact that essentially Mike Pence might think up is down and left is right.
Listen to a little of this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAINE: Let's start with not praising Vladimir Putin as a great leader. Donald Trump and Mike Pence have said he's a great leader. Donald Trump has --
PENCE: No, we haven't.
DONALD TRUMP, (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Putin has been a very strong leader for Russia.
PENCE: Vladimir Putin has been a stronger leader in his country than Barack Obama has been in this country.
KAINE: Donald Trump, on the other hand, didn't know that Russia had invaded the Crimea.
PENCE: Oh, that's nonsense.
TRUMP: He's not going to go into Ukraine. You can mark it down. You can put it down. You can take it any way you want.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC NEWS ANCHOR: He's already there, isn't he?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BOLDUAN: It wasn't just on that one point.
BOLDUAN: It was on abortion, on many other issues that we saw that. It wasn't pointed out necessarily last night but when you take it as it's going to be viewed going forward, does this -- this didn't hurt Mike Pence last night but could it offer an opening to Clinton now?
RAJU: Absolutely. It could shape the narrative going forward. Mike Pence is almost in an impossible position because Donald Trump does not have a lot of policy positions. He speaks off the cuff. We saw that happen during the primaries. A lot of the comments he made were during the primaries, including talking about having more nuclear weapons in Asia --
RAJU: But he has not really formulated a clear policy on nuclear proliferation, so Mike Pence is, in some ways, probably exerting his own policy preferences and hoping that Donald Trump runs with it. So in a lot of ways, he's in a very difficult spot because Trump has reversed himself on a lot of key issues, including on immigration when he was asked about that last night, and including on whether or not women should be punished for abortions as well. Donald Trump has changed his position on that. So in some ways, Pence is in a difficult spot which is why he side-stepped that last night.
Bob and Brett, we got a little bit of news I want your quick take on. We just learned that Donald Trump's going to hold an event tomorrow in New Hampshire that meeting format. Why? Well, because the debate Sunday night, moderated by CNN's Anderson Cooper, will be a town meeting format.
Bob and Brett, just quickly, how smart is this and how much practice does Donald Trump need going into Sunday night? How big is this for him?
O'DONNELL: Very smart, very smart.
CUSACK: It's very smart. I think it's very smart. He has not done a lot of retail politics. He's done some recently but, in the primary, he was just doing speeches, not going into diners. I think he needs some practice. It's a whole different ball game when you're in that town hall format. I think it's a good move by Trump.
[11:15:19] BOLDUAN: Brett, Kellyanne Conway was on tv this morning saying she thinks the town hall format works better for Trump than Clinton. Clearly, they also think he needs practice, though.
O'DONNELL: Absolutely. But I do think she's right about that. I think Secretary Clinton's had a hard time connecting with audiences, and it could be a challenge for her. So Trump doing practice, that's a good thing for him because, clearly, he didn't do it headed into the last debate.
BERMAN: You get the sense from the Trump campaign, in general, they are happy he merely watched Mike Pence last night and maybe picked up a few tips for 90 minutes going forward to Sunday night.
BOLDUAN: He wasn't happy about it.
BERMAN: -- thank you very much.
We are waiting to hear from Governor Mike Pence. We have live pictures from Harrisonburg, Virginia. Mike Pence will pop up on that stage a little bit.
Is that Ed Gillespie?
BOLDUAN: It's Ed Gillespie.
BERMAN: It's Ed Gillespie, Virginia politician, could be the next governor of the state of Virginia. We will keep our eye on this event. We'll bring you there the moment it begins.
BOLDUAN: Plus, ahead, Donald Trump says he used tax law brilliantly, but Trump's former accountant, who worked on 30 years of returns, has a different take on the story. His take on Trump's tax controversy, ahead.
And breaking right now, a brand new forecast is out for Hurricane Matthew. When and where it could be hitting along the U.S. This comes as the Florida governor is warning that the deadly storm, in his words, "could be too massively destructive." We'll have an update on its track, coming up.
[11:20:30] BOLDUAN: This morning, hurricane warnings, evacuation orders and states of emergency in place along a lot of places on the southeast coast. Millions of people are on alert as Hurricane Matthew is barreling north. It's already clearly hit very hard Cuba and Haiti with devastating winds and rain. At least seven people have been killed.
BERMAN: The storm now eyeing the Bahamas. Florida, the next possible target. Governor Rick Scott of Florida says residents should prepare for what could be a direct hit.
We have team coverage of this right now. CNN's Boris Sanchez is in Daytona Beach, Patrick Oppmann, in eastern Cuba. And Meteorologist Chad Myers with the latest storm track.
Because the latest shift here could make a huge difference.
Chad, we just got a new update from the National Hurricane Center. What are they saying?
CHAD MYERS, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Well, the numbers stayed the same, 130 miles per hour, but I believe the track shifted a little closer to Florida. Dangerously close to Florida, probably 20 miles closer. That 20, 30 miles one way or the other will make a tremendous difference whether this category 3, which could be a category 4 by that time, scours the coast of Florida or just makes big waves.
Here's the very, very latest. Here's what we have here for Matthew. Winds are 120 right now, gusts to 145. Moving to the northwest at 12 miles per hour, still in the Bahamas, well south of Long Island, Bahamas, as a category 3 storm. That's all that was updated with this.
But the bigger story is where the track may take this storm. It may take it into the Bahamas and through the Bahamas and then run at the United States. Run anywhere from Fort Lauderdale, because you are talking about the cone, not just the middle of the line. We have been in the cone for days and days and days now. But category 4, very close to Balushia County (ph), maybe Flagler at 130 miles per hour, that's a scary scenario, especially if it's onshore at 130. We haven't had a major hurricane make landfall in America in a long time. Hundreds of people have moved to Florida and have no idea what to do, they have never experienced this. Time to listen to your local officials.
BOLDUAN: That's exactly right. And that's why the governor this morning saying the track of this storm could cause massive destruction. We need to watch this as updates come in.
You are right there, Chad. Thank you so much.
The powerful storm has already slammed into Haiti and Cuba with deadly flooding and strong winds.
CNN's Patrick Oppmann is in Santiago de Cuba.
Patrick, what are you seeing? What happened overnight?
PATRICK OPPMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning. We still have light rains coming this morning but people, by and large, are breathing a big sigh of relief because the storm didn't go where officials feared it would. Here, in Santiago de Cuba, the island's second-largest city, it would have created horrible damage here had it come here, but it ended up tracking further to the north easternmost point of Cuba and, there, it did cause substantial damage. Towns lost dozens of homes. people said the storm surge swept homes out to sea. Here's the amazing thing, so far, no fatalities were reported. Why is that? Because the Cuban government over the weekend made a mass push to get people to evacuate. Some 180,000 people are estimated to have evacuated, going to shelters. They saved lives. So the lesson from here is it was better to be safe than sorry. A lot of people are grateful that they did evacuate when they were told to do so.
BERMAN: Smart to listen.
Patrick, thanks so much.
I want to go to Florida now and CNN's Boris Sanchez.
Boris, the news we just got from Chad Myers, the storm track ticking perhaps as much as 20 miles closer to the coast of Florida as a category 4 storm. This has got to be cause for serious, serious concern where you are.
BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely. The Governor Rick Scott saying we should take nothing for granted. We should prepare for a direct hit. He called the storm "extremely dangerous." It's already killed about seven people in the Caribbean and it could do the same if it touches ground here in Florida. There's already a state of emergency across the state. 500 National Guard members have already been deployed. There are mandatory evacuations just south of us in Brevard County, and you can expect those to grow, especially along the coast and barrier islands, like the one we are on now.
We have also seen people doing what they can to prepare themselves. We have seen entire grocery aisles that have been emptied out, people buying water, non-perishable food items. We have also seen huge lines at gas stations. A friend of mine in line for gas this morning told me she waited more than an hour and ended up empty-handed because they ran out of gas. Those are scenes we see playing out over and over again. But this is a good thing. The governor saying this is the window when we need to be preparing, we need to be ready, because within 36 hours, we will start feeling the strength of this storm.
He's asking that if you feel that you may have to evacuate your home, do it now, ahead of time, to not cause more strain and more problems on the infrastructure and the resources that we have available for people here -- John and Kate?
[11:25:21] BOLDUAN: Boris, thanks so much. Beautiful there now. Could change so quickly. So Trump coming up for us. Back to politics. Donald Trump says he's
not just smart but brilliant for using the tax laws in his favor as a businessman. But the man who actually prepared those returns for years says Trump wasn't involved at all. That accountant will join us next.
BERMAN: Plus, you are looking at live pictures from Virginia. We are waiting to hear from Mike Pence, fresh off the debate last night, a debate our viewers said Mike Pence won narrowly. Mike Pence also seemed to propose new policy that Donald Trump hasn't proposed yet. So is this a break with the person at the top of the ticket? Details ahead.