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Libyan Commercial Plane Hijacked, Lands in Malt; Berlin Attacker Suspect Killed in Milan, Italy. 8:00a-9:00a ET

Aired December 23, 2016 - 08:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[08:02:24] ANDREW STEVENS, HOST: I'm Andrew Stevens in Hong Kong. We are going to leave our colleagues at New Day for the moment to back to our

breaking news story on the hijacked plane. A Libyan passenger plane has been forced to land on the island of Malta. And we are now hearing from

Malta's foreign affairs ministry that there are two hijackers with grenades threatening to blow the aircraft up.

At this stage, their demands are not clear. The prime minister of Malta says that women and children are being allowed off the plane.

You are looking here at images of the plane on the tarmac at Malta's international airport.

The Afriqiyah air flight was traveling from the city of Sabha to the Libyan capital of Tripoli.

Security personnel are on the scene. Malta's prime minister says there are 111 passengers on that flight.

Agence France Presse reports that there are also seven crew members.

Well, Pierre Pulf (ph) is the editor of iNews Malta. He's on the ground at the airport. And he joins me now on the line.

Pierre, just tell us what you're looking at at the moment.

PIERRE PULF (ph), INEWS MALTA: Right now, we're on the -- we're viewing the plane. The engines are still running. It has picked up power over the

last few minutes. The doors of the plane are open. Some people are disembarking. We believe that the local authorities are negotiating with

terrorists to leave the passengers in the back of the plane.

We believe...

STEVENS: At this stage, no one has actually left the plane?

PULF (ph): With two grenades, with grenades. They are saying that if they don't receive fuel and food, they are going to blow the plane. Moments

ago, the situation was escalating a bit because of the demand of the terrorists.

STEVENS: But Pierre, can I just interrupt just for a moment? I just want to clarify, have you seen passengers or have passengers actually left the

plane? Because we have heard that the hijackers were -- how many have left?

PULF (ph) We can't confirm if the people who disembarked the plane were passengers. However, we can confirm that, yes, people have disembarked the

plane.

STEVENS: OK. So they have left the plane.

So, the hijackers are threatening to blow up the plane. Do you know how they are armed, what they are armed with?

PULF (ph): Obviously, at this moment, there are a lot of unconfirmed reports. There are no confirmed reports regarding the situation, regarding

the hostage situation. I believe that there are 111 people on board the flight with a number of crew members. However, the situation is developing

-- it's a continually developing situation.

STEVENS: Yeah. Absolutely. I totally understand that how in fact it's very difficult at the moment. But as you understand, I just want to go

back to an earlier point you made. The hijackers are asking for food and fuel. They want to take off? Do you know, does anybody -- do you know

where they are trying to get to?

[08:05:46] PULF: It was -- the flight was an internal one. It was from Libya. I think it was going to Tripoli. We don't know -- we can't confirm

-- we have no idea where the terrorists intend to go with the flight. Obviously, up until now, no official statement has been issued by the

authorities regarding the flight plan.

STEVENS: What is the security like on the ground at the airport? How heavy is the security presence?

PULF (ph): The security is really heavy. The police and the armed forces have secured a perimeter around the whole airport. They won't let

journalists and other people go near the airport, go near the runway and view the plane. But it's a very dangerous situation. We have to work from

very far away to see the plane.

STEVENS: Do you know why Malta -- why the hijackers chose Malta?

PULF (ph): At this stage, we do believe that the strategic position of Malta being in the center of the Mediterranean, there was -- there was in

the '80s, another case of a hijacked plane that landed in Malta for EgyptAir one, so being more close to Libya and -- it's obviously the

terrorists would prefer to try and gain access to the continent through the island of Malta being so near to the place.

STEVENS: All right. Pierre, thank you so much for the information. We appreciate the difficult circumstances you are working under at the moment

in trying to confirm facts for us. But we do appreciate that.

Pierre Pulf (ph) with iNews Malta. Thank you for that.

And we will be speaking with Pierre throughout the day as this situation -- this breaking news

situation develops. Let's go to Ian Lee now.

Ian is following developments from London.

Ian, I don't know how much that interview you were able to catch, but Pierre was talking about people leaving the plane. He can't confirm who

has left the plane. The hijackers are demanding food and fuel. The engines apparently have been revving somewhat up in recent minutes. What are you getting from your end?

IAN LEE, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, what we are hearing right now coincides with what we are seeing on the pictures as well, those people

coming off.

I spoke with someone from the foreign ministry who confirmed that the women -- 28 women will be let off the plane as well as the infant that they are

going to be coming out in groups. And that just again is what we are seeing right now on that -- coming from that plane.

But also, we know that there are two hijackers on that plane. They have grenades. They are threatening to blow it up. The foreign ministry hasn't

been able to give us any demands that have been made by the hijackers, but the main goal of the armed forces who are conducting negotiations right now

is to have it end peacefully, to get all 111 passengers off that plane.

STEVENS: And what do we know about the flight itself? It originated in the city of Sabha, correct?

LEE: That's correct. And Sabha is the southern part of Libya, about 400 miles from Tripoli. And the plane, we're hearing from Reuters reporting,

when it was hijacked, the pilots wanted to land it in Libya, but the hijackers refused, and that's when the plane was diverted to Malta.

Sabha, though, the southern part has experienced turmoil of late. There has been fighting between two different tribes. A number of people have

died in those clashes. So something to keep in mind as we move forward with this hijacking to see what are the demands of these people.

But it's important to note that this hijacking doesn't follow there has been fighting between two different tribes. A number of people have died

in those clashes. So something to keep in mind as we move forward with this hijacking to see what are the demands of these people.

But it's important to note that this hijacking doesn't follow what we have seen in the past from other terrorist groups where they have blown up the

planes in mid-flight to get the mass number of casualties.

This plane has landed. And so these people -- these hijackers have demands. And so there is an opportunity. And this is what the Maltese are

telling me right now to end this peacefully.

STEVENS: And as you say, we don't know at this stage know what those demands are.

I guess given the fragile state of Libya at the moment, security at airports -- I don't know if non-existent would be the right phrase. But

certainly it wouldn't be as rigorous as many other places. So, perhaps not surprising that hijackers armed with grenades could actually board a

flight?

LEE: It's very much likely. Libya is in turmoil right now. There isn't a strong central government. Airport security is not regulated by the

international community in a rigorous way that one would expect. And so this internal flight going from Sabha to Triopli, it is likely that someone could, as we are seeing, get weapons on the

plane.

Although, it is important to note that the hijackers claim they have grenades. And so that is what the Maltese right now are proceeding with

that information. But we don't know if for sure they have weapons on the plane. We haven't heard from any passengers or anyone else.

So this is their claim. And so that is right now what the Maltese officials are working with.

STEVENS: And Afriqiyah Airways, it is state owned airline?

LEE: That's right. Afriqiyah Airways it's the Libyan carrier. I have flown it a few times from -- going from Cairo to Tripoli. It is --

especially before the uprising in 2011, a very professional airline for the most part. After the uprising that overthrew Moammar Gadhafi, there has

been turmoil in the country. The airport at times has been attacked as well.

So, this is going to raise a lot of questions about this plane entering European airspace, what

was done also to monitor this plane as it was coming from Libya.

STEVENS: We heard from Pierre Pulf (ph) on the ground that there was an indication the hijackers may want to continue to fly on. Have you heard

anything that suggests that as well?

LEE: We haven't heard anything that suggests that right now. As this is still a developing

situation, this plane was hijacked about two hours ago. But if they are trying to take off to go somewhere else, we will see how the armed forces

of Malta deals with that. Their goal is just to get everyone off that plane and to also bring in those hijackers.

So we will have to see what they're able to do to go forward. But right now, as we watch this

plane that is on the tarmac, we're just waiting to see if more people are able to come off. Again, we're hearing that the hijackers are allowing all

the women and the infants to leave the plane, 21 women and one infant.

STEVENS: OK, if you are just -- stay with us, Ian. If you are joining us, you are watching these pictures to us from the Maltese international

airport which an air Afriqiyah Airways plane which has been hijacked from - - it originated in in the Libyan City of Sabha on the way to capital Tripoli.

There are believed to be two hijackers on board. The plane has been -- the hijackers have taken the plane to Malta where the Maltese authorities are

currently negotiating with the hijackers. The hijackers have threatened or say they are armed with grenades and have threatened to blow up the plane.

There are demands -- we understand that they have made demands, or the assumption is they made demands because they did land the flight there.

But at this stage, we don't know what those demands are. And as Ian Lee was just telling us, it

looks as if the women and children are being allowed to leave the plane at this stage.

Ian, do we know anything about the makeup of the passenger list?

LEE: That's one thing we have been asking the Maltese officials about, who is on this plane. And they said that they don't have the passenger

manifest yet. We are waiting for the prime minister's office to release that. But just looking at where this plane was taking off and where it was

going in Libya, it's a sure bet that the most of these passengers, if not all of them, are Libyan. So we are still waiting to hear the makeup of the

nationalities of the passengers on that plane.

[08:15:11] STEVENS: OK. And just looking at the plane, I mean, it looks like it's an Airbus plane. Again, it looks relatively new. As you were

saying, the actual airline itself, is it a relatively modern fleet with well trained pilots.

I guess they would have some training on dealing with situations like this. Obviously, very difficult to know what's going on in the cockpit. But in

your understanding, this -- we spoke about this a little earlier, but the actual airline itself, Ian, is quite well run given the fact that it is

state owned and it is a chaotic country at the moment, Libya?

LEE: It is. And these pilots, their thoughts were probably the safety of the passengers on the plane. And there was a hijacking in Egypt earlier

this year where a man -- internal flight going from Alexandria to Cairo was hijacked. That plane was diverted to Cyprus. And

they were also to get everyone off that plane through negotiations.

And so when you look at what's happening now, that is going to be the main goal is to get negotiators to talk to the people who are on the plane to

get everyone off the plane. The pilots, obviously, they are going to be listening to the people on the -- the hijackers on the plane to what their

demands are to make sure that these passengers are safely on the ground.

And as Reuters reported, the pilots initially wanted this plane to land in Libya, but it was then diverted to Malta where it is on the ground now.

And we are seeing people have been coming off the plane. Women we're told from the

foreign ministry's office have been allowed off the plane. And you can see some of them are

elderly. They are being helped down the stairway there.

STEVENS: Right. OK.

It looks as if the numbers we're getting on this is some 25 people have been allowed to get

off the plane. Is there any indication of their condition, of the conditions inside that airliner at this

stage?

LEE: We haven't heard what the atmosphere, what the conditions are like inside the plane, if

there has been any demands for food and water. Likely, if this hijacking now, hostage situation is to be

prolonged, they are going to want water, they're going to want food.

This is a relatively short flight that was taking place between Sabha and Tripoli. So no word about what they would already have on the plane.

But Still really a lot of unknowns as negotiators are trying to figure out what exactly the demands of the two hijackers are.

STEVENS: Just getting news in that there's been a tweet from the prime minister's office that a

second group of some 25 passengers are being now allowed to leave the plane. You are looking here at actually live pictures. And clearly, among

this second lot of passengers are men. You see a man there. Looks apparently disabled -- an elderly man being helped down the stairway there.

So another 25 are being released.

Ian, that would mean that some 30, perhaps 40 of the passengers have now been released, which

would leave about half, is that right?

LEE: That's right.

Well so if the prime minister is saying that there's 25 other passengers who have just been

let off, so you have 29 women and that infant and so you have 25 men. So that would make 54 passengers off the plane, 111 total. So about half the

passengers then would be off that plane.

And as we are seeing from those live pictures, it does look like that is one of the flight attendants on the plane that is helping that elderly man

off. We will have to talk with the...

STEVENS: OK, Ian, I'm afraid I'm just going to have to interrupt you there briefly. We are just getting news that Germany's interior minister is

giving a briefing on the shooting of Anis Amri in Milan. Let's listen in to that.

(GERMAN INTERIOR MINISTER PRESS BRIEFING)

[08:26:32] STEVENS: OK. You're listening to a press conference there with the other gentleman who has been speaking, Thomas de Maiziere who is the

German interior minister saying -- telling the press conference there that he was very relieved that the threat of Amri is not -- has been

extinguished, although, he did very clearly say that the threat level in Germany has not changed. And that shows from recent arrests tied up with

terrorists in recent days.

So relief, but still German authorities say that the country is very much on high alert as we

continue to head towards the holiday break.

Let's bring in Chris Burns now who was also monitoring that press conference. And Chris, the minister saying that the rest -- there were two

arrests today, but they are not connected to Amri.

CHRIS BURNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. That's interesting. I mean, the arrest that involved that plot against the biggest shopping mall in Europe

in Obenhausen that also had a Christmas mall there, those two Kosovars (ph), the brothers 29 and 31 years old, that were arrested overnight, they

were not, he says, connected to what happened here at the Christmas market. That's significant. But it is also that -- that area is also known for

activity among some of these Salafist groups of recruiting different people. So, who knows what kind of connection there might be there.

What I think was also interesting is that he says that he is going to send a team down to Italy to work even more closely with the Italians. He

talked about Transatlantic cooperation, international cooperation.

He says this is not over. This is going to continue. There are threats. There are hundreds of perceived threats that they have to continue chasing

down even though Mr. Amri is dead. There are others that must be tracked.

He also mentioned about a draft bill about deportation. This is something that's been heavily debated the last few days because Mr. Amri was supposed

to be deported, but he didn't have the right legal papers to send him back to native Tunisia. And this proposed legislation is supposed to make it

easier for somebody who seems to pose a threat to the country to be able to deport him more quickly, Andrew.

STEVENS: All right, Chris, thanks very much for that. Chris Burns in Berlin.

Let's go to CNN's terrorism analyst Paul Cruickshank. He is in London.

Paul, there has been a lot of talk that Amri was able to travel 1,000 kilometers by train to get to Italy. Does it surprise you that Europe --

what was essentially Europe's most wanted man could do that undetected?

PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Yes and no, Andrew. Because he could have put a baseball cap on. He could have disguised himself to some

degree and get on a train and he could have looked like any other man his age from North Africa

in doing so.

But clearly by making this trip when there was this big manhunt to go after him was taking a risk, and eventually, those risks caught up with him in

Italy when -- in a fortuitous circumstance, a police patrol sort of stumbled across him. And he appears to have seen opportunity to go out in

some kind of blaze of glory. But the Italians were able to neutralize the threat and to take him out.

There are a number of scenarios I think of why he traveled to Italy. One of them is that he had contacts there that could have provided him shelter,

another is he wanted to launch a follow on attack in Italy, perhaps he had some animus towards that country, but it imprisoned him for four years.

And another scenario is he traveled there as a logistical hub, to try to get to either Syria to join ISIS or perhaps to travel down to southern

Italy and try to get over to North Africa, perhaps even Libya where there's also some ISIS presence in the country.

We may never know the reason why he traveled south, because he's now dead.

STEVENS: OK. Paul, thanks very much for that. We will, of course, be checking with both Chris Burns and Paul Cruickshank in the hours ahead as

that story continues to develop.

But I want to go back now to our top developing story: the hijacked Libyan plane that has landed in Malta. The prime minister of Malta is saying now

on Twitter that some 65 passengers have been released so far.

Let's go to Ian Lee. He has been following developments from London.

And Ian, this is interesting, it started off with women and children being let off, but the hijackers are broadening the number of people they're

letting go.

LEE: And that's right. And if we're looking at the live pictures right now, you are seeing buses have been taking people away.

As the prime minister has said, 65 passengers have been released. And we know there was 28 women, one infant on board. So initially they were just

allowing the women and the infant off. But that has been expanded to men as well. And when we're looking at these pictures of people who are

coming down the stairwell from the plane, we are seeing elderly people, elderly men. It looks like the person was being helped off by one of the

members of the crew.

So with having 111 passengers on board, if there are 65 passengers taken off, that means there's 46 left, 46 passengers left on board with two

hijackers who claim to have grenades.

The Maltese army is right now trying to negotiate with them, trying to get more people off. And it looks like they are having some success in this

negotiation as you are seeing people who are leaving the plane. But we haven't heard yet what are the demands of these hijackers.

STEVENS: And leaving the plane in a very unhurried fashion as well, which I find quite interesting.

Ian, for people who are joining us now, just recap what we know about this -- about the hijacking at this stage.

LEE: So, Andrew, about two hours ago, a little over two hours now, a plane that was traveling

in Libya -- and that's in the southern part of the country to north of Tripoli on the coast was hijacked.

We are hearing from Rreuters that the pilots of the plane wanted to land it in Libya, but the two hijackers refused. The plane was diverted to Malta.

And that's where it has been on the ground, and we're talking to Maltese officials. They are saying that negotiations are being led by the armed

forces, their utmost important goal in this is trying to get everyone off safely. They don't want any bloodshed. They want the passengers. They

want the crew. They want the hijackers off safely. And that is their goal right now.

We haven't heard if they -- what the demands are, at least the foreign ministry hasn't released

that. We don't know the nationalities of the people on the plane likely to be predominantly Libyan because this was a domestic Libyan flight, but

there could be other people, nationalities. The foreign ministry of Malta says we will get that information from the prime minister.

This plane was operated by the Afriqiyah, the Libyan airline. It was an Airbus A-320 that was

hijacked. And so right now, we are waiting to hear what the demands are of these hijackers.

STEVENS: And this is not the first time that Malta has been the scene of a hijacked airplane.

LEE: That's right. And what their main goal is to try to get -- to be resolved safely and for everyone to get out of this alive. And it's

interesting when you talk about these sorts of hijackings, very different from the terrorist attacks we have seen where these planes are destroyed in

mid-flight to get the mass number of casualties that they can get, remembering what took

place in Sinai, Egypt where a bomb was put on that plane by ISIS. That was detonated to kill everyone on board.

This plane was landed. And so these hijackers will have demands. We just don't know what they are at this moment. They want to have some sort of

conclusion to this. And so that is what is encouraging about this situation is that they are able to negotiate. They already have 65

passengers off the plane. And they are going to be trying to get more.

And as we watch these live pictures, we are seeing people going down that stairway. They are getting on to a bus. They are greeted by members of

the armed forces of Malta. And they are whisked away.

So, it does look like they are able to at least get some people off that safely and more pictures coming in live we are seeing more people coming

off. So, Maltese officials hoping to end it peacefully.

[08:35:40] STEVENS: And the hijackers are believed and have said that they have hand grenades on board. They have threatened to blow up the plane.

Ian, how does a passenger in this day and age manage to smuggle aboard hand grenades?

LEE: That is going to be the question for investigators, how these people got the hand grenades on board the plane. But when you look at Sabha,

which is in the southern part of Libya, this is an area in turmoil. Until recently, there was fighting between two warring tribes that killed a

number of people. So security is going to be heavily scrutinized about how these people were able to get them -- these hand grenades, which they say

they have, on the plane.

We don't know for sure definitely if they do have these hand grenades. They have just told the Maltese authorities that they do have hand

grenades. But that will be heavily scrutinized, also this plane going into European airspace, questions on how closely it was monitored because this

was a domestic Libyan flight.

STEVENS: And just a quick recap on the airline itself, what sort of a record does it have?

LEE: Well, Afriqiyah Airlines is the main airline of Libya. And I have flown them before --

before the 2011 uprising against Moammar Gadhafi. It has a fairly good reputation, it is allowed to fly

internationally, but since the revolution, since that uprising, there has been a lot of security concerns at the airports, mainly airports have come

under attack by different militia groups. And so security has been questioned.

In Libya, there is ISIS which is operating right now to -- along the coast. And there's a lot of concerns about security there, too. This is a country

that is in turmoil. And so a lot of security questions are going to be raised after this incident is resolved, however

it's resolved, to figure out what exactly happened and to make sure something like this doesn't happen again.

STEVENS: OK, Ian, thank you very much. That will let you get back to working this story for us.

If you have just joined us, you are looking here at pictures of passengers leaving a hijacked

plane, which has landed in Malta. The hijack began about two hours ago. An internal flight in Libya, the Air Afriqiyah flight from Sabha to the

capital Tripoli was hijacked by what we understand are two hijackers.

They are apparently armed with hand grenades. The pilots wanted to land in Tripoli, the hijackers said no and they went to Malta. They have landed in

Malta. And the hijackers have made demands, we understand, but at this stage we don't know what they are.

And as you can see, they have started to let passengers off the plane as well. What we know is there were 111 passengers on that plane. Initially,

28 women and children were released, then another 65 have been released or in the process of being released. And you can see it began with women and

children. And now there are men -- there were elderly people getting off the plane, now obviously as you can see able-bodied people getting off the

plane.

At this stage, we're not sure how many people are still on the airplane at the moment. Maltese authorities are obviously negotiating with the

hijackers. And at this stage, we don't know what has been -- what's been going on in those negotiations.

I do want to turn now to CNN aviation analyst Mary Schiavo. She joins us on the line with more.

And particularly, how would this negotiation be going? What sort of playbook would they be using at the moment on this, Mary?

MARY SCHIAVO, CNN AVIATION EXPERT: Well, so far they have been using the playbook

that's used or was used, rather, in hijackings around the world. They try to keep, of course, the lines of communication open. There's been no

report whether the pilots or the crew have actually reported seeing the hand grenades that they have said that they have, but they also want to try

to confirm what kind of weaponry they have. Early on in the negotiations, they often ask the hijackers if they can see them what they have so they

know what they're dealing with.

But at this point, there's been no indication that they have actually seen them so, unfortunately, they are working with an unknown situation. So

they're trying to keep everything on a calm level, keep the lines of communications open, and then also try to verify the threat.

Are there just two or are there additional persons embedded in the plane? Is it a situation where they have more than the people that they know about

as hijackers? So, at this stage, they're really trying to assess, the pilots are trying to the crew, to help them assess what they're dealing

with and then to keep everybody calm, keep them talking so they can figure out what they want and they can avoid a loss of life.

As long as that's going on, as long as everyone is calm and they are talking and no one is being harmed or killed, I imagine that the Maltese

authorities will talk to them for some time, literally for as long as it takes.

[10:41:05] STEVENS: As long as it takes, indeed.

We heard from a reporter who is on the ground there, obviously, journalists can't get too close to the actual scene itself, because of security cordon.

But he was saying that the hijackers had asked for food and fuel. And there was a suggestion that they may be wanting to take the plane on.

Now, would the negotiators want to keep that plane there, or would -- on a point like this, would they -- to keep things calm and to keep things

moving -- allow that plane to take off again?

SCHIAVO: No. The goal is always to keep the plane on the ground and keep the plane in place, because, again, once it takes off, the plane could be

used as a tactical weapon.

Once a plane is back in the air, you don't know the situation that you are dealing with. You don't know if it's a hijacker with demands or a hijacker

who wants to use the plane as in September 11, 2001 in the United States as a weapon to crash into buildings.

So, no, the goal is to always keep the plane on the ground and keep the lines of communication open so that way -- so the maximum stability can be

maintained.

STEVENS: And what sort of training would you expect the pilots to have had in hijack situations of dealing with a hijack situation?

SCHIAVO: Well, in major aviation nations, the pilots have been highly trained. There are special codes. I'm not allowed to say what they are,

but there are codes to give clues as to what's going on with the hijackers and what kind of situation they are dealing with. And the pilots and the

crew -- the flight attendants as well -- have been trained to talk to hijackers, to try to keep things calm, to try

to relay as much information as they can about them. That's one of the reasons they want to see what they're dealing with in terms of weaponry et

cetera.

And there -- I think probably the highlight of the training is to try to keep everyone calm. So things don't escalate unnecessarily. If the

demands are such that the hijackers want to go somewhere, get food and water or make a statement, and that's all that they want to do, they really

don't want to kill people, then, of course, the goal of the pilots and flight attendants is to keep it on that level.

And all major aviation nations have trained their pilots and crew in that situation.

STEVENS: It's obviously significant that so many people have now been released. The plane has not been on the tarmac for that long, but already

dozens of passengers have been let go.

SCHIAVO: Well, yes. And sometimes having a lot of passengers is really kind of in the way for the hijackers, depending upon what their demands

are. It's a good sign that they have released so many. It's obviously -- it appears, anyway -- I shouldn't say anything is obvious in a hijack. But

it appears that their goal is not to have a massive loss of life, but to express some sort of demands.

And it's a good sign that they have started letting people go. And the flip side is for the

hijackers often having that many people on the plane can be in the way if their goal truly is to go

somewhere else with the plane, then they don't need that many people on there. It's too many people to keep an eye on, it's too many people to

watch, remind people of September 11, 2001 in the United States, the passengers managed to overpower the hijackers.

So passengers can be a threat to the hijackers as well as the hijackers to the passengers.

STEVENS: Air Afriqiyah is a Libyan state-owned operator. Libya is in turmoil at the moment to put it mildly.

What is your understanding of Air Afriqiyah's operations in Libya? And how well trained or

professional would their crews be? It's a difficult one you may not know this, but I'm just curious to find out whether they would have adequate

training.

SCHIAVO: Well, the problem with any commercial air operation or any air operation is, of course, national boundaries are less significant with an

aircraft than with surface transportation because your airline is only as good security-wise as the airports where it has to operate. The airline

can't control the airport, the security forces at the airport. There are so many different groups that have

responsibilities at airports all over the world.

State and local law enforcement. There are just so many different groups. And in this airport in particular, there's a large space -- there's I think

three miles between where you check in at the airport and then where you are taken to board the plane. And so already people are saying, is it

possible that that space was occupied as well? So, the problem is as a country, Libya, of course, has been criticized for its security, but the

airline has been able to fly virtually like any other aviation nation airline, but wherever you land, you are at the mercy of the airport,

because the airline doesn't run any of the airports.

And the problem here are the gaps and the unknowns. And you know, it's been shown that

way around the world. You can have breaches of security or -- all it takes is one person who hasn't had the fullback ground check. And that's

happened in nations literally everywhere -- you know, Britain, United States, you name it, there have been security breaches. So the airline and

the airport aren't synonymous. And unfortunately here, there are just a lot of gaps that could have been exploited, particularly that 3.1 mile

distance between them -- where the passengers check in and then where they are actually boarded.

STEVEN: Absolutely.

Mary, thank you very much for your analysis. Mary Schiavo, CNN's aviation analyst there

giving us more context behind the negotiations that are going on right now aboard that Air Afriqiyah flight. At this stage, we know dozens of

passengers have been released since the plane landed in Malta. We don't know the exact number. We know there were 111 passengers on, initially 28

women and children were allowed to leave the plane. That was followed by a larger number of men, we understand.

As you can see, from looking at the vision there, that people are leaving the aircraft. There doesn't seem to be panic get off that plane, but they

have been leaving in a fairly orderly fashion. Negotiations are obviously continuing. You see there are staff, there are ground staff, very, very

close to that plane as well.

Let's get more now from security analyst Will Geddes. He joins us via Skype from London. Will, when you see so many passengers being let off the

plane, obviously to a layman this is a good sign. What does it tell you about how the negotiations are progressing?

WILL GEDDES, SECURITY ANALYST: Well, I think the key thing, Andrew, is the fact that we have seen fairly quick success of hostages obviously being

released, which would say that they have got through that initial threshold. One of the hardest parts of these kind of negotiations is

firstly establishing a good and reliable and secure means of communication with the hijackers and the hostage takers to determine obviously that they

can feel secure.

And it's more about the security of the hijackers, that they can communicate obviously with the

negotiators in the best possible way and be able to ensure that they are speaking with the right person that they feel has the authority to be able

to grant them whatever concessions, demands they might be potentially making.

So everything looks recently (inaudible) right now. If we had just one traunche of hostages group of hostages being released and then we had an

extended period, a long period between the next release, that might tell us a little bit in terms of speculation on how the

negotiations are going to go.

But as the sting continual sort of traunches of hostages being released -- and I think it's down by some of the estimation -- to about half the

passenger manifest right now, this is pretty good so far.

STEVENS: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, from some of the numbers we are seeing, it could be a little bit -- quite a lot more, actualy, than one

half of the 111 passengers.

What would be going on in the background, if you like, as far as actual security, hard security, preparing, for example, a team to actually storm

the plane if they had to? What sort of action is being done at the moment on that front?

GEDDES: OK, well quite often in these kinds of situations, obviously the international community will lend its assistance, as much as they possibly

can, and although the host nation may have a very capable special forces team, they will more often learned support or looked for support from

countries that have a very advanced capability in these kinds of techniques.

So in this instance, I wouldn't be that surprised if there wasn't already a detachment, or a sabre, from special forces here in the United Kingdom

either through the SDS or the SAS, who will be already on their way down to assist local support -- obviously local teams in terms of the support that

should they need to take the plane back by force, they are probably amongst the best in the world to do so.

STEVENS: It's interesting, because I'm seeing there are people walking very close to the plane. There doesn't seem to be a sense of panic on the

plane. That's also got to be a very good sign. And I say that because watching the passengers getting off, Will, they don't seem to be sort of

panicked, sort of crashing for the exits.

GEDDES: No. Absolutely.

I mean, again, really good way to read the situation, particularly when you don't have the inside track as we don't in this instance as to what is

actually being discussed. And we don't even know what the hijackers' demands are as yet, certainly they haven't been clarified, but if you are

seeing a reasonably relaxed environment, it can tell you of one side things are going well, but at the second it is also to send a very clear message,

because bearing in mind around the aircraft, there will obviously be visibility by the hijackers. They no doubt will be obviously observing the

airport maintenance crews and general activity to see if there is any mount up to a possible tactical assault on the plane.

And if they are seeing what we would term a relaxed picture, that in itself would ideally hopefully put them somewhat at ease in terms of their open

dialogue with the negotiators.

STEVENS: If the hostages were wanting to take that plane deeper into Europe, into the European continent, is that an option that European

countries -- other countries would considerate this stage?

GEDDES: Well, first and foremost, Andrew, the most important thing, a collectively on all

parts, will be the protection and safety of the passengers. So if, for example, the hijackers did demand the aircraft be moved to a continental

European airport, in many regards actually that plays well into the negotiators and certainly the responders' hands in terms of the capability

of controlling it.

It does naturally become somewhat confusing in terms of jurisdictional primacy. But ultimately, whichever country it goes into regardless of the

international support they lent it, it will be led by the country that it is actually in.

STEVENS: OK.

Well, while you are speaking with someone who has just come out waving a green flag. We're not sure what that is at this stage -- the Libyan flag -

- it appears to be the Libyan flag. And they're going back in.

I want to ask you, should we be surprised that this sort of hijack is coming from a country slike Libya, a country sort of close to collapse?

And should we expect, perhaps, that there could be more issues like this in so many countries now that are facing such turmoil internally?

GEDDES: Well, inevitably, it's always going to be the case where you have a country where the

level of infrastructure security is not going to be comparable, say, to the United States or to continental Europe or the UK for that matter. And as a

direct result, you will have situations where there will be breaches in the security. And I think as your correspondent was saying earlier, in many

regards it's going to be down to the protection of the airport and how much security there is around it.

So, if it's variable as it will be in certain broken states like Libya, ultimately, it will always continue to be potentially permeable for

terrorists, for hijackers, or other threats to potentially opportune (inaudible).

STEVENS: Will, thank you very much for your analysis. Will Geddes managing director with the International Corporation for Protection. Thank

you for that.

I want to go back to Ian now, Ian Lee who has been following this story for us from London.

Ian, you saw just a short time ago someone emerging from that plane waving a green -- what

looked like a solid green flag. I'm not sure whether you detected what that was.

LEE: Yeah, Andrew I saw that just now. And I saw you commenting on it.

That solid green flag -- and we are looking at that plane now. It looks like the door is shut -- but that solid green flag would be the flag of

former Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi, if it is, in fact, a solid green flag, which it looked like it was.

And so these could have been supporters of the former Libyan leader who was killed after the uprising.

So that just gives us another hint about what could be the motives behind these hijackers.

But what we're hearing -- so you have 109 passengers, according to the prime minister, have been allowed to leave the plane, which presumably

would mean that the other two passengers of the 111 would be the hijackers.

Now looking at these pictures, we're also seeing what looks like a crew member who has been walking out of the plane and walking back in. The

prime minister tweeted out that the crew members will be released. So, we're still waiting to see if they are allowed to leave.

And I think it's important that you mentioned earlier about how these people are not running away. They're walking calmly away, which kind of

gives you a sense of what the atmosphere may be like inside that airplane where presumably you do have these two hijackers. They claim they have

grenades, although, we haven't heard definitively if they do have these weapons with them.

But the Maltese armed forces who are conducting the negotiations are going to treat it as if they

do. And they have told me that their utmost goal right now is to end it peacefully, to get everyone off that plane alive as well as those two

hijackers.

[08:56:09] STEVENS: OK. And just as you have been speaking, Ian, the prime minister of Malta has tweeted that there are still some crew members

on board that flight.

Looking at live pictures there of the Afriqiyah flight which has been hijacked now at Malta's international airport. Dozens of passengers have

now been released. It's understood there are two hijackers on board. They are believed, or they have claimed to be carrying hand grenades. We

have got no way of verifying this at this stage.

We also cannot verify any demands that they may be making, although, hostage negotiations continue.

I'm Andrew Stevens in Hong Kong. We will follow this breaking news, of course, on the hijacked plane plus the killing of the Berlin terror attack

suspect. Poppy Harlow will have much more on both of those stories on the other side of the break.

END