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Trump Receives Briefing Tomorrow; Russian Leaders behind Election Hacks; Graham Urges Respect for Intelligence Agencies; Battle Lines over Health Care Reform; Interview with Sen. John Thune. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired January 5, 2017 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, I'm Wolf Blitzer. It's 1:00 p.m. here in Washington, 9:00 p.m. in Moscow. Wherever you're watching from around the world, thanks very much for joining us.

Up first, Russia did it. U.S. intelligence leaders say they are more convinced than ever that Russia was behind the hacking during the 2016 election here in the United States.

And that sets the stage for a clash with President-elect Donald Trump who has repeatedly raised doubts that Russia was responsible.

At a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing today, intel leaders again pointed the finger directly at Moscow.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOE DONNELLY (D), INDIANA: Director Clapper, how would you describe your confidence in attributing these attacks to the Russian government as opposed to someone in their basement?

GEN. JAMES CLAPPER, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE: It's very high.

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: You say you think this was approved at the highest level of government in Russia, generally speaking. Is that right?

CLAPPER: That's what we said.

GRAHAM: OK. Who's the highest level of government?

CLAPPER: Well, the highest is President Putin.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Intelligence officials also were asked about what Russia was trying to accomplish with the hacking.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TOM COTTON (R) ARKANSAS: You stated that the report soon to be released will discuss the motive. Would you care to give any kind of preview today?

CLAPPER: I'd rather not.

COTTON: I didn't think so.

CLAPPER: There are actually more than one motive so that'll be described in the report.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Our Justice Correspondent Pamela Brown has the latest on the hearing. It was pretty dramatic. Our Senior Political Reporter Manu Raju has reaction up on Capitol Hill.

And our Senior International Correspondent Fred Pleitgen is joining us from Moscow with reaction from the Russian government.

Pamela, first to you. What more did we learn from this hearing?

PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, we got a little glimpse there from James Clapper, a head of the DNI, about what's going to be in the comprehensive report coming out to the public on Monday.

And it's not just going to explain why the U.S. intelligence community believes Russia is to blame for the hacks, but also lay out the multiple motivations which is harder for officials to pin down than the evidence supporting who was behind the hack.

So, that's really interesting, Wolf. And we've learned, from officials we spoke with, that it will talk about how Russia tried to sow distrust in the process.

But, also, talk about why the U.S. believes, the U.S. intelligence community, believes that Russia was trying to hurt Hillary Clinton and help Donald Trump.

And James Clapper also went on to talk about the fact that this wasn't just a hack, that Russia also was pushing out fake news propaganda. And he says that is continuing to this day.

He says this wasn't just espionage. This was activism on the part of Russia. And he said he is more resolute than ever that Russia was behind the attacks. Even more resolute than when the intelligence community sent out that October statement.

And he, sort of, sent an implicit message to President-elect Donald Trump who has continually cast doubt on the intelligence community's assessment. Here's what's he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CLAIRE MCCASKILL (D), MISSOURI: Who actually is the benefactor of someone who is about to become commander in chief trashing the intelligence community? CLAPPER: I think there is an important distinction here between

healthy skepticism which policymakers, to include policymaker number one, should always have for intelligence. But I think there's a difference between skepticism and disparagement.

I've received many expressions of concern from foreign counterparts about, you know, the disparagement of the -- of the U.S. intelligence community, or I should say what has been interpreted as disparagement of the intelligence community.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: And, Wolf, James Clapper, along with other leaders in the intelligence community, will be briefing President-elect Trump tomorrow on this comprehensive report.

And the hope, among the officials I've spoken with, is once this briefing is done, that perhaps Trump will get on board with the intelligence community's assessment or at least relations will improve after that.

We'll have to wait and see -- Wolf.

BLITZER: We'll wait and see what he tweets after that important meeting tomorrow.

Manu, you just spoke with the committee chairman, Senator John McCain, about how WikiLeaks founder, Julian Assange, plays into all of this. Tell our viewers what he said.

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: Well, that's right. Actually, the first question that I asked him, Wolf, was, what do you hope that President-elect Trump gets from this hearing?

And he said that he hopes that he understands how vital the intelligence agencies have been and he should actually accept what the intelligence agencies are saying. That Russia did play a role in hacking the political systems and hacking during the elections.

[13:05:09] I asked John McCain, does he think that means that the elections were swayed to Donald Trump because of the Russian hacking? He would not go there. He said that I have to just wait to see more evidence to make that case.

He is calling for tougher sanctions as well and said he doesn't have any -- he's not sure if he has the confidence that Trump will push for tougher sanctions.

And then, yes, we did talk about Julian Assange and Trump suggesting that Julian Assange is a credible source that Russia did not hack into those Clinton accounts and the DNC. But John McCain said that Julian Assange is not anyone here to trust.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA, CHAIRMAN, ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE: Mr. Assange's name has been raised as some kind of a credible source of information.

And the fact is that he is one of the worst individuals because he put the lives of men and women who were serving this nation in jeopardy because -- by revealing their identities and where they were.

This is -- this is really a person who has put the lives of Americans in danger. He cannot be trusted for anything.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: So, as you can see, really coming to a head between Republicans on Capitol Hill and Donald Trump over the issue of Russia and how to approach Vladimir Putin. Something that McCain hopes that Trump watched this hearing and will listen to the intelligence briefers tomorrow when they do talk to him about these hacks.

But one piece of potentially good news for Donald Trump. I asked John McCain, what do you think about Rex Tillerson, his secretary of state nominee, and his relationship with Putin which McCain has been critical of? McCain actually sounded more optimistic.

He said they had a conversation yesterday. It was a positive conversation. He swayed some of his concerns, not all of his concerns. But clearly thinks more highly of him now after that conversation -- Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, Manu, thanks very much. Manu Raju up on Capitol Hill.

Fred Pleitgen is in Moscow. Fred, Russia was quick to respond. What are you hearing from officials there?

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, they were very quick to respond. And one of the things that the Russians obviously have been saying time and again was, quite frankly, that they weren't involved in this.

And so, tonight, as the hearing was going on, Dmitry Peskov, the spokesperson for Vladimir Putin, actually e-mailed me right during the hearing.

And here is what he had to say. He said, we have suggested cooperation on combatting cyberthreats numerous times. It was rejected and we are sick and tired of those irresponsibly blaming everything on our country.

If there's a need for an enemy, why not try someone else. So, again, this is something that the spokesman for Vladimir Putin sent very, very quickly as the hearings were still going on.

And, obviously, meshes with what the Russians have been saying all along, that they weren't involved. And it's interesting because they always make a nuance.

They're not flat out denying that Russians were involved in all of this, but they say that it wasn't any Russian agencies, government agencies or military agencies as, of course, would be suggested by the fact that there have been sanctions levied against the FSB and the military intelligence service here of Russia as well.

The spokesperson for Vladimir Putin always using the term, official Russia, meaning that no official Russian agencies, he believes, were involved or he says were involved in all of this -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Because, Fred, you heard the intelligence chief say that the Russians use, often use, what they call cutouts, third party elements. Individuals to pretend it's not really Russia but it really is.

Any reaction from the Russian government to the assertion that the Russian government is using cutouts to hack into U.S. political parties?

PLEITGEN: So far, there hasn't been any reaction from the Russians, except to say, as I've said, that there wasn't any direct involvement by any sort of government agency, saying that official Russia wasn't involved in all this.

But you're absolutely right. It is something that has apparently been done in the past, that there have been contractors who conducted hacking who may have sold their information to Russian government agencies.

It's something that we've heard from experts on this, both here in Russia as well as the U.S.

Whether or not that done in this case is, obviously, something that we'll probably have to wait and see in the report, whether or not that happened.

But, certainly, the Russians flat out saying they had nothing to do with this. At least their government agencies had nothing to do with this.

Whether or not something was done somewhere in the cybersphere, obviously, is something that they're leaving open at this point -- Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, Fred Pleitgen in Moscow for us. Fred, thanks very much.

While senior intelligence officials and many lawmakers agree Russia was behind the election hacking, it puts them at odds with the next U.S. commander in chief.

President-elect Trump has continually rejected that conclusion and now sources say he's vowing, potentially, to overhaul the U.S. intelligence community.

Let's talk about that and more with our Justice Correspondent Evan Perez and our Chief National Security Correspondent Jim Sciutto. They are here with me. Our Senior White House Correspondent Jim Acosta is outside Trump Tower in New York City. [13:10:02] Evan, what more can you tell us, first of all, about potential changes in the intelligence community that the Trump team is looking at?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, I think that, at this point, these are just ideas that they're still knocking around. I don't think there's anything firm yet.

One of the things that they want to do is first get their people into office at the DNI and at the CIA, before they determine what the way forward is.

But one of the things they're talking about is trying to find a way to rein in some of the power of the DNI. It's an agency that, obviously, was created post-911 under the Bush administration.

There's a lot of criticism from some, especially former CIA folks, that the DNI is a bit overbearing. That it interferes too much with the runnings of the other intelligence agencies.

And so, that's a criticism that's been going on. I think, frankly, that's a little bit out of date. And I think what we're going to see is the Trump people are going to get into the DNI and they're going to learn that, perhaps, a lot of that -- a lot of that stuff has changed.

We do know, obviously, that Mike Flynn, who is at the right hand of the president-elect, is -- has been a critic of this system. He clashed repeatedly with the DNI, James Clapper. That led to his ouster from the Obama administration. So, perhaps, some of that is coming from there -- from that direction.

Secondly, the other thing that the Trump transition folks are talking about is possibly finding a way to get the CIA back out into the field.

They feel that under the Obama administration, under post-Bush, there was sort of a retrenchment that a lot of the CIA capabilities were lost. That they've been relying a little too much on electronic spying, stuff from the national security agency, signals intelligence, so to speak. And they feel that, perhaps, the CIA can go back to its old ways.

Again, these are things they'll look at when they get their folks into the -- into office. They'll see, perhaps -- that, perhaps, there's a -- there's a different direction.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: That's not entirely a new idea.

PEREZ: Right.

SCIUTTO: The idea of getting away from too much of a dependence on signals. There was a reorganization a couple of years ago --

PEREZ: Right. SCIUTTO: -- where they were trying to put analysis closer to the agents in the field, having sort of pods out there. So, this is an idea that's been around (INAUDIBLE.)

PEREZ: It's been around, right.

BLITZER: Let me get reaction now from the Trump team. Jim Acosta, you're there in New York. Any response, yet, from Trump or his transition team about these potential changes?

JIM ACOSTA, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, the Trump transition team is pushing back on these reports that they are considering paring down or limiting the scope of the U.S. intelligence community going after the director of national intelligence as an office that is overseeing the vast U.S. intelligence community.

Sean Spicer was on a call with reporters earlier this morning, saying it's just not accurate that these talks, if any, are occurring are tentative. Here is what he had to say.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

SEAN SPICER, INCOMING WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: There is a story out there in "The Wall Street Journal" that is entitled Donald Trump plans to revamp a top spy agency. Please note the following, quote, "These reports are false. All transition activities are for information gathering purposes and all discussions are tentative.

The president-elect's top priority will be to ensure the safety of the American people and the security of the nation. And he's committed to finding the best and most effective way to do that. But I want to reiterate, there is no truth to this idea of restructuring the intelligence community infrastructure. It is 100 percent false."

(END AUDIO CLIP)

ACOSTA: So, there you have it. Sean Spicer pushing back on this, mightily, during that conference call with reporters.

One other thing we should note, Wolf, is that Donald Trump did put out a tweet earlier this morning on this subject of Julian Assange, sort of walking back that tweet that he posted yesterday, essentially siding with Assange against the U.S. intelligence community when it comes to Russian hacking.

Donald Trump, in that tweet earlier this morning, saying that, you know, the dishonest media is saying that Julian Assange and I are 100 percent in agreement. He said, that is wrong -- Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, Jim Acosta in New York, over at Trump Tower. Thanks very much.

Jim Sciutto, I want to just play a clip. An exchange Lindsey Graham, the Republican Senator from South Carolina, and General Clapper, the Director of National Intelligence. Listen to this exchange they had on Donald Trump and the U.S. intelligence community. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: You're going to be challenged tomorrow by the president-elect. Are you OK with being challenged?

CLAPPER: Absolutely.

GRAHAM: Do you both welcome it?

CLAPPER: We do.

GRAHAM: Do you think it's appropriate?

CLAPPER: We do.

GRAHAM: Are you ready for the task?

CLAPPER: I think so.

GRAHAM: Good.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: They're going to be briefing the president-elect of the United States tomorrow in New York City on all of this.

The report that has been prepared, the president -- President Obama is being briefed. He's given -- being given the report today. Trump will be given the report tomorrow.

[13:15:02] That could be a lively exchange.

SCIUTTO: Absolutely. I mean, listen, Trump is almost -- he's virtually alone against the world on this, right? Because it's not just Democrats and the Obama administration that's saying Republicans -- that Russia is behind the hacking.

[13:15:00] BLITZER: Trump will be given the report tomorrow. That could be a lively exchange.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: : Absolutely. I mean, listen, Trump is almost -- he's virtually alone against the world on this, right?

BLITZER: Right.

SCIUTTO: Because it's not just Democrats and the Obama administration that's saying Republican -- that Russia's behind the hacking, or just the intelligence community. It's Republicans. And not just the Grahams of the world, but the McConnells and the Ryans, et cetera.

So, you know, what does he do now? And the fact of the matter is, the intelligence he's going to hear tomorrow on the Russian hacking, it's not going to be dramatically different from what he's seen in his briefing so far. They've already lifted the veil a bit to give them -- to give him, as the president-elect, a sense of why they believe Russia's behind this. They're going to go into greater detail.

But is there going to be, you know, photographic evidence, that kind of thing? No. So it really becomes a question, does Donald Trump accept that assessment?

BLITZER: Right.

SCIUTTO: And, you know, what's going to be inside his head on this? And that's just something we don't know. He could come out tomorrow, Donald Trump, and say, well, you know what, now that I've seen it, I demanded this information, I got it and now I'm convinces, or, who knows, he can could continue saying, I'm -- you know, I don't trust the intelligence community. Both of those are possible.

BLITZER: We'll all wait anxiously to see --

SCIUTTO: Yes.

BLITZER: His response and how he responds after he gets that report tomorrow.

Guys, thanks very much.

Coming up, Donald Trump's refusal to accept Russia's role in the hackings creates a divide in his own party. What's will it mean for his relationship with Congress? And does the president-elect need to choose his words more carefully when it comes to the intel community? I'll ask Republican Senator John Thune. He's here. He's my guest. Lots to discuss right after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:20:21] BLITZER: President-elect Donald Trump appears to be at a collision course right now with the U.S. intelligence community. The leaders testified today that they're more certain than ever that Russia was directly behind the 2016 election hacking here in the United States. So far, the president-elect is not convinced. Senator John Thune of South Dakota is the Senate Republican Conference chairman, the third ranking GOP senator right now.

Senator Thune, thanks so much for coming in.

SEN. JOHN THUNE (R), SOUTH DAKOTA: Thanks. Nice to be with you, Wolf.

BLITZER: Do you accept the assessment of the U.S. intelligence community that it was Russia and the highest levels of the Russian government, Putin, who were directly responsible?

THUNE: Well, I think what they said today made it clear that's what they believe. And they're going to file an official public report on Monday. There are a couple of other hearings today on Capitol Hill on the Senate side, Intelligence Committee, Foreign Relations Committee, where I expect we'll get a better and more -- a full understanding of all this. But, yes, I mean I think there's no question that Russia was involved.

BLITZER: So you -- but you -- but you accept that? Because the president-elect, at least so far, he's going to be briefed tomorrow on this new report in New York by Clapper and the other leaders of the intelligence community, so far he hasn't accepted it. He said it could be China. It could be some guy on his bed.

THUNE: Well, and I think he'll get -- he'll get the briefing tomorrow from the intelligence community. And I hope that after he has that, you know, he'll be able to articulate probably in a more clear way his view about what actually happened and what -- what the underlying motivations were, which I think a lot of that hopefully will come out in a report on Monday. A lot of it will probably come out in a more classified setting. There are limitations to what they could say, I think, in front of the Senate Armed Services Committee this morning.

The question about what impact it had and whether or not they were trying to swing the election one way or the other, I think that's another question, right.

BLITZER: That's another question, what the motivation was. And we heard Clapper say there were several motivations. He didn't want to spell them out. Presumably it's classified, although he did say that in the report that will be made public, they'll go into more detail. He didn't want to do that today.

THUNE: Right.

BLITZER: Why do you think Trump has been so reluctant all these weeks to accept what the intelligence community has concluded?

THUNE: Well, I -- hopefully you'll get a better -- I assume after he hears from the intelligence community tomorrow, he'll get a chance to talk to the public and express his views. So that's probably a question for him to answer. I do think that, you know, when he ran for office, he, of course, there's a lot of skepticism and doubt about government, Washington generally and, you know, previous instances where he's drawn into question some of the findings of the intelligence community. So those probably bear on his opinions. But I think after he gets a full report tomorrow, hopefully he'll be able to come out and speak with clarity about his views on this subject.

BLITZER: And he's going to get the most sensitive information, all the classified information involving sources and methods, information that they're not going to make public Monday, but he'll be privy, like the president, President Obama, is to the most sensitive information.

THUNE: Right.

BLITZER: Lindsey Graham, your Republican colleague, on the Armed Services Committee, he said this. I want to play this clip of what he said based on everything he knows so far.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE: If it were up to me, we'd all live in peace, but Putin's up to no good and he better be stopped. And, Mr. President-elect, when you listen to these people, you can be skeptical, but understand, they're the best among us and they're trying to protect us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Are you with Senator Graham?

THUNE: Sure. I mean the people in the intelligence community, they're -- they're like all of us, Wolf. They're fallible. They're human. They're not going to get it right 100 percent of the time. But these are hard-working people who care deeply about the country and are committed patriots. And I think that we have to listen, and I hope that the new administration will build a relationship with them because they're going to have to have a relationship going forward.

BLITZER: The other big issue right now, Obamacare, the future of Obamacare. President-elect Trump repeatedly said on day one he wants to repeal and replace. Repealing is easy. Replacing, not so easy. That could take a long time. Some say two years, three years, even four years. How long, realistically, will it take to replace Obamacare?

THUNE: I think if you go about it in a step by step way, you can start that process much earlier. And I think the question of whether it's two years or three years for something to be fully implemented is to give transition because you're talking about moving away from something, a 2,700-page bill with 20,000-some pages of regulations. It's going to take a while to create a transition, a phase out or phase in, if you will. But, in the end, we hope to come up with an alternative that is better, that provides more affordability and access and greater choices and options and more competition for people.

BLITZER: The criticism of the Republicans, including Trump, have received is, you guys have railed against the Affordable Care Act, Obamacare, for six or seven years. Finally, there's going to be a Republican president, a Republican majority in the House, Republican majority in the Senate. Why aren't you ready on day one with legislation to not only repeal but come up with a plan that will replace it?

[13:25:11] THUNE: We have -- because we have a -- we've got literally a menu of options. We have members in both the House and the Senate who have introduced both comprehensive bills, more targeted bills. I think you will see, in a systematic way, us in a step by step way start early on to introduce legislation, to start implementing our ideas. But I think it's going to take a period of time. I don't think you can expect this to happen overnight.

And some of these ideas that have been worked on for several years, we have to sort of unify behind. We've got -- there's a -- there's a Rubio bill. There's a -- Bill Cassidy's got a bill. Richard Burr and Orrin Hatch have a bill. There are a lot of bills out there, good ideas, and we've got to figure out what's the best path forward.

BLITZER: On day one, what's going to happen? THUNE: Well, I think on day one, you know, we've got a budget

resolution on the floor right now of Obama -- a repeal resolution which will pass next week. And then we will begin the process of going about how we replace that and over a period of time look for something that comes up with a much better plan for people in this country that lowers premiums. And the thing that's clear is that this isn't working. It's a broken system that's got to be fixed and everybody agrees upon that. The question is, how do you go about doing that? We think it makes more sense to have a market-based approach, it gives people more choices and creates more competition.

BLITZER: The Republicans agree. The Democrats --

THUNE: Yes, well, there will never be --

BLITZER: The Democrats like it. They say it could be improved, but they don't -- they don't say it needs to be replaced.

Senator Thune, thanks for coming in.

THUNE: Nice to be with you.

BLITZER: Appreciate it very much.

THUNE: Yes. Thanks, Wolf.

BLITZER: Coming up, a major report on Russia hacking set to be made public next week. So what sanctions would Democrats like to see against the Kremlin? I'll ask a member of the Democratic leadership, Congressman James Clyburn. There he is. He's up on Capitol Hill. He'll weigh in right after the break.

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