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PRIMETIME JUSTICE WITH ASHLEIGH BANFIELD

Multiple Casualties in U.K. Arena Concert Explosion. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired May 22, 2017 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[20:00:00] ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HLN HOST: Thank you for joining us tonight, everybody. We`re going to start a little differently tonight because we`ve

got breaking news coming from overseas. This is the scene at the Manchester Arena, about three hours 45 minutes north of London, at an

Ariana Grande concert, closer to the end of the concert, when witnesses in that arena report that they heard a loud explosion and chaos erupted. What

you`re seeing is cell phone video that`s come in since this incident began.

No one is yet saying if this is a terrorist incident, but witnesses are describing what they heard and what they saw as they ran for their lives.

One witness describes the large explosion, smoke and chaos, and the appearance of what seemed to her to be 20 to 30 dead bodies. She described

blood everywhere as she ran for the exits. Her name is Kiera Dawber, and this is what she told CNN`s Erin Burnett.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KIERA DAWBER, CONCERT GOER: They just started letting everyone out. The music had just gone off. There was a massive, massive explosion. There

was a bang. There was smoke coming (INAUDIBLE) and there was smoke coming, like, up through the steps. And everyone was just screaming and so insane

that it could be a bomb. And there was people shouting to their kids. There was people shouting (INAUDIBLE)

And as we went out onto the concourse, like, get out of the arena, there was just bodies scattered everywhere! (INAUDIBLE) I mean, people

(INAUDIBLE) on the floor! It was bad. (INAUDIBLE) all the traffic was at a standstill and we went into the roads. And oh, it was -- it was just

chaos.

(INAUDIBLE) at least 20, 30 people on the floor that you could see straight off were just -- just dead. You could just see that they were just passed

away.

There was some people with injuries. There was a few -- like, there was a guy (INAUDIBLE) holding, like, what looked like his wife, and she wasn`t in

a good state. There was blood everywhere. It wasn`t in the stampede because there wasn`t that many people out at that minute. It was just as

we opened the door to get out of the arena, they were letting people out, that there was blood and people`s shoes and handbags and (INAUDIBLE) and

phones.

And it was just mad. It was just crazy!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Obviously, you can hear in that witness`s voice the terror that followed this explosion. And we have to reiterate at this time, no one is

saying that this is a terrorist incident. But after what happened in Times Square last week, which did not turn out to be a terrorist incident, that

is what the first thought is.

There have been so many of these incidents at large collections of Western events. And so clearly, investigators are trying to get to the bottom of

this while at the same time, rescue the injured, which we are told numbers into the hundreds, and deal with the fatalities, which although we don`t

have any confirmation at this time of numbers, witnesses are at least saying that it appeared to be somewhere between 20 to 30 people who, to at

least Kiera Dawber, appeared to be dead.

The description was that there was blood everywhere, that the detritus of the human stampede, purses and shoes covered in blood could be witnessed

from her. She also said there was smoke coming from the stairs. I can`t tell you what part of the stadium she was referring to, but she said that

she saw what seemed to be smoke coming from the stairs and that that was an area where the explosion seemed to be coming from, as well.

Another witness named Calvin Wellsford (ph) was sitting in the front row of the Ariana Grande concert, and he reported to having heard the explosion

but having to turn around to find out what was happening.

So from that witness account, we can only say it doesn`t seem as though it happened in the stage area, but somewhere at least behind that front row.

Calvin Wellsford said all he could see after that was chaos and people running for the exits, some people even running for the exits on the stage.

I can also tell you that this happened about 10:40 PM local time in Manchester, towards the end of the Ariana Grande concert. If you look at

your map, you`ll see Manchester, England. Again it`s about just a little under four hours north of London.

I want to bring in Anthony May. He`s a retired ATF explosion expert. Anthony, obviously, after what happened just days ago in Times Square, the

first thought is that this could obviously be terror.

[20:05:00]But what will investigators be doing right away, right during this crisis to both save people, clear people, and preserve the

investigation?

ANTHONY MAY, RETIRED ATF EXPLOSIVE EXPERT (via telephone): Well, right now, it`s going to be total chaos going on on that scene. The

investigators or the local law enforcement will have to get control of what`s happening, evacuate those that need to be evacuated. As early the

reports are coming in, mass casualties are being reported. We don`t know how true that is or not. These are witnesses are making these statements.

But basically, getting control of the scene first, and then they`re going to have to sort through with all options on the table. Was this an event

that was occurred by a pyrotechnic theatrics? If the show wasn`t using any of that, then, obviously, we can eliminate that option.

This obvious option on everybody`s mind, of course, is, was this an act of terrorism? And what`s been going on throughout terrorist, throughout

Britain, as you said, in Times Square, which Times Square was not a terrorist event, but certainly that`s something that the investigators will

be looking at with an open mind.

BANFIELD: Can I ask you about this controlling the scene? I can`t imagine with a capacity of about 21,000 concert goers how they control a scene that

massive while at the same time, Anthony, if this does turn out to be terror, these are the early offings (ph). How do you find a perpetrator?

Where do you begin to look with that many people?

MAY: Well, unfortunately, that`s going to be a tough job, but it`s not an impossible task. There`s going to be video throughout that arena.

There`ll be investigators that`ll be assigned to do just that, just look at any and all video that may have been taken.

But controlling the scene by preserving it, basically, as the mass chaos is happening, it`s also destroying their crime scene. So those are things

that lead to -- that the investigators -- right now, all that`s in the back of their mind. What`s forefront is the -- protecting the people that are

there, getting them to safety and then treating the injured.

BANFIELD: So Anthony, with that in mind, it hearkens back to the masses of people who were lining the streets in Boston when the Tsarnaev brothers

plied their trade and bombed the Boston Marathon. And yet with the devastation there, the number of injured, the people who were running for

their lives, the thousands who were present all throughout the streets, they found those two brothers. And as you said, a lot of it had to do with

video evidence. What would they be looking for?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Anything unusual, people carrying backpacks in and leaving it and walking away from it. And part of this also with

controlling the scene, you`ve got -- you`ve got a lot of potential witnesses exiting that scene in a hurry. They need to somehow contain

those and gather the information from those witnesses. Somebody may have seen something. And that`s the only way they`re going to sort this mess

out.

But of course, once they get the scene under control, then they`ll go in, try to locate the initial blast seat (ph) and determine what caused the

explosion. Was it a mechanical explosion, accidental or was it an improvised explosive device? All the evidence is going to be there in that

blast seat, in that crime seat (ph).

BANFIELD: I`ve got another question for you about that, Anthony, but hold on for a second. I just want to get a bit more reporting out. I also can

tell you what witnesses said, that they knew some of the dead that they saw not to be dead from any kind of stampede but from other kinds of injuries.

That`s one of the witness accounts.

Also, one of the witnesses said that they heard what sounded like to them a big bang, a gun or a bomb. And one dead man looked to be holding onto a

woman, both of them apparently dead, was one witness account of some of the bodies. Very distressing to hear from some of the people in that concert

venue in Manchester, England, again just north of London.

A few other quick pieces of description about the power of this explosion. A witness names Susie Mitchell (ph), who has an apartment opposite the

Manchester venue, the Manchester Arena, said that, The bang was so large, I could hear it from my room, and my room is at the back of the apartment

block. She also said she could see lots of emergency vehicles going to and from, could not see anything substantial except for fleeing people and a

lot of cars.

We also know that the British transit police have been closing, obviously, a lot of local transportation. They`re calling it still an incident,

nothing more than an incident. I want to reiterate, at this stage, it is not being called an act of terror. But the national rail Web site has also

said that emergency services are dealing with this incident and they`re asking people obviously to steer clear. They`re not able to run the trains

in that area. They`ll be canceled throughout the foreseeable future, I would think, for hours, possibly days in order to, as Anthony May said,

control this scene.

[20:10:20]I can also tell you that they are sending out on the Facebook page at the Greater Manchester Police -- and I`ll quote them. "The

emergency services currently responding to reports of an explosion at Manchester Arena, a number of confirmed fatalities and others injured.

Please avoid this area as first responders work tirelessly at the scene. Details of a casualty bureau will follow as soon as available."

Obviously, with so many people, upwards of 21,000 capacity, those who are in the concert will have been separated from friends or loved ones. Those

who have loved ones or friends at the concert venue will want to know if they`re safe.

And this news is spreading like wildfire around the world. We`re already receiving a number of tweets from fellow artists, obviously, those who are

aware that this was an Ariana Grande concert.

Katy Perry has sent out a tweet tonight praying for everyone at Ariana Grande`s show, fresh off hosting "Saturday Night Live`s" finale on Saturday

night. Cher has also sent out a tweet of support for those who are -- who went through what they did, saying, "My prayers go out to the people of

Manchester. Had special times there from youth and beyond."

Nicki Minaj, Ed Sheeren (ph) also sending out various tweets of support for those -- my gosh, I`m just starting to get the list now. Dwayne Johnson

also with Katy Perry was hosting "Saturday Night Live" this weekend. He tweets out, "Our prayers and strength to the victims and their families

involved in this tragedy in Manchester. Stay strong." Also hearing from Ryan Seacrest, "Stunned by the news coming in from the U.K. My thoughts

are with the fans and families at Ariana`s Manchester show. Awful."

My colleague, Sean Hannity, at Fox News sending this. "Thoughts and prayers to the victims of bombing. Programming note. President of the

United States speech in Saudi Arabia and my response to conspiracy media Tuesday." I think we have to be really clear when we read things like that

from Sean Hannity. We don`t know yet. We have not had confirmation from authorities that this was a bomb.

I recall covering this horrifying concert in the United States where pyrotechnics caused over -- well, caused 100 deaths and 200 injuries. So

we want to withhold our judgment on whether this was a bomb or whether it as terror. But obviously, a lot of responses from the media and also from

the entertainment world.

I also want to let you know that there are concerts still scheduled to be held in this massive arena. The next one is supposed to be the band Take

That and then Kiss and then Celine Dion. More than likely, those canceled -- those will be either canceled or postponed as that will become a massive

crime scene.

Anthony May, to that end, we don`t know what this is yet. How long would it take in order to establish? Would it be minutes, hours or days until we

know what this really is, terror or not?

MAY: Well, it`s -- let`s get kind of blunt here. Once the investigators can identify the blast seat -- and as it`s being reported, there seems to

be several casualties congregated in a particular area -- if this was suicide bomber, if you will, there will be plenty of evidence to suggest

that from the carnage at that scene.

BANFIELD: So not to be -- not to be clinical about this, Anthony, but I think a lot of people do wonder when you hear that, how is one to determine

the carnage from the suicide bomber versus the multitudes of people who might have been within a foot or two or four or six or 20 of that person?

MAY: Well, when I was in Baghdad, Iraq, back in 2005, we responded to suicide bombers all the time. And we always had one individual designated

to identify the suicide bomber because, typically, the explosives are worn on the torso. And that, as you can imagine, will do tremendous amount of

damage to that individual and separate the -- pretty much decapitate them.

And that`s what the investigators will be looking for to determine whether or not this was a suicide bomber. And I`m sorry to be blunt, but that`s...

BANFIELD: No, but you know what? This -- sadly, this has become a critical part of our conversation now as we deal with terror around the

world. And if these were, in fact, maybe something else -- I don`t know what the policy of Manchester Arena is. I don`t know, if like many arenas

in America, you can`t take a backpack. You can`t take a purse in. Or if you do, it goes through scrutiny at the door. So I don`t know if this was

something that, you know, was backpack related or bomb related. I don`t know yet if it was a bomb.

[20:15:04]But that would be -- I mean, look, the people who were standing next to the incendiary devices that the Tsarnaevs exploded in the Boston

Marathon, they were cut limb from limb, as well. You could still tell the difference between somebody actually holding or detonating that bomb and

those standing right next to it?

MAY: Absolutely. You`re going to be able to tell that. And depending on if it -- and again, we`re speculating here at this point. If it was a

bomber, probably nails or ball bearings, some kind of shrapnel was employed. And I`m looking -- looking now at a photograph, and I`m not sure

who put this photograph out, but it`s showing -- looks like a police officer is helping a young lady that has injuries to her upper shoulder, as

well as her knee, her leg. You know, that could be possibly from shrapnel from a device.

So you know, there`s a lot to speculate here at this point, but I guarantee you within the hour, there will be more information that the investigators

will initially have because they want to -- - want to determine rather quickly what`s going on here and whether or not they`ve got a bigger

problem as we saw in...

BANFIELD: Right. Anthony, I mentioned that this happened...

MAY: ... in other places.

BANFIELD: I mentioned that this happened towards the end of the concert, 10:40 PM local time. We`ve had a couple of hours, you know -- well, at

least more than that, to process this. And I`m just curious about the possibility of secondary devices because as we know well from the Paris

attack, there were a sequence of assaults that went on. So obviously, with that in hindsight, how does one respond to a venue like this while at the

same time realizing that that is a very real potential, that there could be secondary devices timed with several minutes or hours in order to maximize

further damage?

MAY: Well, from an investigator`s standpoint, it`s going to be completely chaotic. You`ve got individuals there that will -- if they allowed

backpacks into that arena, when the event occurred, innocent backpacks may have been, you know, left by the concert goers as they were trying to

escape. Every one of those bags is going to be a suspect bag that`s going to have to be cleared, that`s going to slow everything down. So this is a

tremendous task these investigators have.

Now, what`s interesting, however, the point you just brought up was that this was near the end of the concert. That`s -- timing-wise for an attack

that`s kind of unusual. But nonetheless, something is gong on here that`s going to take some time to sort out.

BANFIELD: I want to give a few more bits of color from witnesses who were there, Anthony. Stay with me, though. Don`t go away. I have a couple

more questions for you.

Ivo Delgado (ph) told CNN that the concert had actually just finished. And then he says he heard, quote, "a really big explosion, really big, and

everyone started running." He goes on to say, "It was more of a moment of confusion, but still the bang was really great, really massive. I only

heard one. There were people on the floor. I saw at least three people on the floor injured -- a lot of confusion." He said people were trying to

leave the area.

And then he goes on to say -- and this is very distressing -- "There were a lot of little girls running out and parents shouting out and yelling

names." Let`s not forget this is Ariana Grande. She has fans in the multitudes in the teen, preteen and the younger demographic. So there

would have been a lot of young people at this concert.

Also want to just mention that they -- you probably saw some video earlier of people flooding down stairs. There is a train station that is directly

connected to the Manchester Arena. It`s called the Victoria train station, for anyone who knows this area. So presumably, people were flooding down

into the train system, although it`s hard to say that, you know, when the - - when the national rail Web site said that all lines would be closed, whether they would have been able to actually get much further than having

just run and then found that those trains may have been inoperable.

CNN now confirming 19 dead, and we are now confirming that it is being treated as a terrorist incident. CNN confirming 19 dead, and it is being

treated as a terrorist incident.

I also want to mention that the U.K.`s Northwest Ambulance Service is requesting that people obviously, only call for life-threatening

emergencies at this time. They`re asking the people -- and imagine all of those who are so worried about their loved ones right now and unable to

make contact. But they are asking that, "If you require our assistance over the next few hours, please bear with us. We have a large number of

resources at the incident in Manchester." Obviously, that would be taking so many their resources.

[20:20:05]And as we have seen in America, I`ll tell you 9/11 in particular, people hit the road. All emergency responders from all over those isles

will be hitting the road to get towards Manchester to offer their support because the existing infrastructure may not be enough to deal with what

they have on hand tonight.

Let me also let you know from the Greater Manchester Police -- fatalities following the incident at Manchester Arena. And of course, we`ve 19

confirmed so far.

The U.K. Labour Party leader, Jeremy Corbin, tweeted out about this incident -- he was also -- he`s also a prime ministerial candidate because

they`ve got an election coming up in just a matter of days, if I`m not mistaken, and this is going to feature prominently, obviously, in the final

days of campaigning. The Labour Party leader has tweeted, quote, "Terrible incident in Manchester. My thoughts are with those affected and our

brilliant emergency services."

Obviously, no time for politicking for those politicians tonight. But just wait. This is always a very difficult, sensitive and heated issue as

elections near.

Here is also a quote from the Greater Manchester Police. "Just before 10:35 PM Monday, police called to reports of an explosion at Manchester

Arena. So far, 19 people have been confirmed dead, with around 50 others injured." This is a count so far from the Manchester police -- 19 dead, 50

others injured, currently being treated as a terrorist incident until police know otherwise. So obviously, you know, as medical examiners will

tell you, your environment plays and factors heavily into your decisions when it comes to cause of death as the police are now looking at their

historical reference of events like this. That may be factoring in heavily to why they`re treating this as a terrorist incident until they know

otherwise.

You heard something particularly intriguing from Anthony May a little earlier on so much to be concerned about for these first responders as they

tread delicately through what could be a very dangerous, possibly unexploded ordinance on site. Who knows if there are secondary devices

timed to go off as responders then flood into the scene to treat those who are wounded and to recover the dead.

But there is oftentimes, in suicide vests or homemade bombs shrapnel. Shrapnel is packed into these bombs, and it`s often very recognizable

shrapnel, like ball bearings or nails or screws or any kind of rough metal that you can pack into a bomb device to maximize the amount of damage that

that bomb will effectuate. And you heard Anthony saying if you look at injuries that went from the knee all the way up to the shoulder,

trajectories will also help those forensic investigators discover what it was that went off, what caused that massive bang, the explosion that so

many witnesses have described, and whether, in fact, it was one of those homemade devices or whether, God forbid, you know, perhaps it is just

something less sinister. Perhaps it is something electronic. Perhaps it is equipment-related.

No word yet on -- on the performer, Ariana Grande. As she was wrapping up her show, this happened. No word as to what happened with her. But one

witness did describe people running for the exits on stage because many of the exits were actually behind the stage. And so it was, you know,

obviously, security had to sort of take a second step to those who needed just to get to the egresses.

Manchester Arena has now sent out a tweet of its own. And this is fairly benign, not really super-informative, but at least we can tell you that

they are at least helping to get into the information wave. And that is "An incident took place outside venue in public space." So that sort of

directly conflicts with what one witness said. Witness Kiera Dawber said that she saw a massive explosion that seemed to come from the stairs.

Maybe it doesn`t conflict, in fact. Maybe some of those stairs that lead into the arena, maybe something happened outside of the actual venue

(INAUDIBLE) you can see the stage in one of the concession areas that usually surround those arenas. Maybe that`s where the explosion went and

the smoke that Kiera Dawber witnessed was coming up one of those entry and exit points to the main arena.

But Manchester Arena saying this incident took place outside the venue in a public space. We`re not hearing yet from the police, though, as to whether

they`ve been able to track what we, you know, often now refer to as the blast seat.

Anthony, does that give you any sort of -- any sort of clues as to what they`ll be doing as they sort of respond in (ph) the masses (ph) to try to

figure out what this was and how it happened when you hear that this -- from Manchester Arena that it took place outside.

MAY: Well, what that does is bring into play -- and again, this is all speculation -- the outside the venue -- now, typically in some of these

venues, they have vendors that sell food. These vendors have propane cylinders.

[20:25:12]You know, if we want to take the nefarious (ph) event and put into an accidental mode, then that would bring into play these vendors and

their propane, propane cylinders, something like that, a mishap occurring. But you know, again, without any more details, this is all sheer

speculation.

BANFIELD: I can tell you that we have been able to find out what the policy is on bags, backpacks and purses at the Manchester Arena. And they

are not unlike us here in America. Small bags only permitted inside shad (ph) arena, small bags, no bigger backpacks, nothing that could, you know,

cause that -- listen, you tell me, but I don`t think a small bag could cause the kind of explosion that we`re hearing if there were upwards of 19

dead, 50 injured, and a woman with an apartment in the back of an adjacent building could hear and feel the blast. Am I wrong?

MAY: Well, I`m not going to kind of go on that. I mean, there`s -- I`ve seen explosions -- explosions -- explosives do a lot different and weird

things. But when you talk about a small bag, a purse, for example, maybe a couple of pounds of explosives in that, probably would not cause the

casualties that you`re talking about, the number dead and injured.

So you know, And I don`t know if they were searching individuals going into this arena or if they had to go through metal detectors to prevent a

suicide type bomber. You know, there`s is a lot coming into play now.

BANFIELD: I can only imagine they`re more sophisticated even than we are with this kind of thing having dealt with the IRA for so many decades prior

to this new global terror, you know, reality in the last 20 years. So my guess is that they more than likely would be searching bags at a venue like

that.

But you did mention something fascinating, the fact that those the workers might be all, you know, surrounding that arena in the concessions area.

They might have propane cylinders. What about the workers that are -- you know, the transients? They come in and they set concerts up. I mean, how

much security do we really effectuate in concert venues when you`ve got, you know, legions of roadies coming in with massive cases setting up gear

at really lightning pace to get these concerts in and out of there?

MAY: Well, that`s a tremendous task. I mean, and it depends on the threat level. There probably was a very minimal security sweep. The threat level

was probably very low at this concert. So you know, there -- people were probably walking through looking for obvious stuff, but there was no

extensive security sweeps done, most likely, prior to that. But again, not knowing what their procedures are, it`s kind of hard to say.

BANFIELD: I do want to say a little bit more from the Manchester police. They said that the -- understandably, since this is an Ariana Grande

concert, the crowd was made up mainly of younger people. This is the first of three concerts in the U.K. that Ariana Grande was -- was performing in.

She`s got a European and a Latin American tour, but I can only imagine what her plans are for the next two concerts in the U.K., whether they`ll be

postponed, canceled, don`t know.

An eyewitness says that this -- an eyewitness also confirming what the Manchester Arena tweeted out, in that the explosion took place outside the

main concert area, in the foyer area, and that it happened a short time after the concert ended. So obviously, that would be a long way away from

Grande on the stage. And that jives also with what the witness in the first row told CNN, told Erin Burnett, that he was sitting in the front row

of the concert venue and heard the explosion behind him and spun around to see what was happening.

He could report seeing no bodies, no carnage. He saw confusion and chaos, but other than that, could not report seeing anything that would have

appeared to be a bombing inside that arena. So that really all seems to make sense now.

And look, all of this is taken in -- you know, in concert with the recent terror attacks that, you know, we all experienced around the world, and

particularly in the West. I`m looking just at a quick list in front of me, and I mean, there are nearly a dozen in the last couple of years.

I want to talk to Ivo Delgado, who I quoted just a few moments ago, who was an eyewitness to what happened. Ivo, can you hear me?

IVO DELGADO, CONCERT GOER (via telephone): Yes, I can hear you (INAUDIBLE) Yes.

BANFIELD: Thank you so much, Ivo. Can you tell me what -- what you saw, what you heard? Where were you?

DELGADO: I was inside the main arena. I was actually watching the concert. The concert just finished, and they switch on the lights. So

everyone was, like (INAUDIBLE) to leave the arena.

[20:30:00] And we were hearing (ph) -- we heard a massive, a loud bang. It was not inside the main stage area. It sounded like it came from the

corridors or even outside, obviously, I did not witness because it was not on the space that I was. So everyone ran in the opposite direction and

everyone started screaming. We didn`t know what was going on.

So after a couple of minutes, we decided to go through the door even we heard the bang from that door. When we opened the door to leave the stage,

there was a lot of smoke on the corridor. I looked to where the explosion came and I saw a body on the floor. Two more people against the wall. And

we asked the staff inside if there is anything we can do. They tried to evacuate. We asked what happened and they said that they didn`t know.

BANFIELD: Ivo, sorry, can you repeat that? We were watching your video as well as you`re narrating for us. What did you -- you asked the staff if

there was something you can do to help and what did the staff tell you?

DELGADO: The staff say that they didn`t know what was going on and trying to tell the people to evacuate in alternate way because obviously there was

a lot of kids, a lot of little girls that were in the concert. That was one of the concerns of everyone, not to make a massive run because there were a

lot of kids in there that may might fall and you can run over them.

BANFIELD: Did they say that to you, Ivo, just to try to stop the stampede from happening that could cause further injury and death? Did they mention

that?

DELGADO: No, they just -- they were just trying to direct the people to the exit.

BANFIELD: They were directing?

DELGADO: They were just directing the people. There was a lot of people. It was almost sold out, the arena is completely sold out so a lot of people

try to evacuate in that moment. The man in front of me when we were going through the stairs, he was with a girl in disabled chair, so we helped them

to get out. There is pool of blood. There is more injury in the head. We helped him to get the disabled woman down and bring the wheelchair down.

But, yeah, it was a lot of screaming and a lot of little girls.

BANFIELD: Did you say a woman in the wheelchair had an injury to her head?

DELGADO: No, the woman was completely fine. She was really obviously stressed of getting into a crowd with a wheelchair and the stairs. The man

who was next to her, I assume that he could be her family or friend or maybe she didn`t know, but he asked for my help to get her down the stairs

because she was stuck obviously with a wheelchair through the stairs.

We helped her to get out of the wheelchair. It was an electric wheelchair. So we got her out and we got the wheelchair down. But it was him who had an

injury in the head. He got blood on his t-shirt.

BANFIELD: And Ivo, can you just reiterate for me, you said that you saw a lot of little girls as well.

DELGADO: Yeah.

BANFIELD: What would you say would be the composition of the crowd? What percentage of those concert goers would have been, you know, say 11, 12, 13

years old?

DELGADO: Half of the people were really teenage girls or even girl next to me in the concert, two girls I would recognize like 5 or 6 years old with

her mom. Really teenage girls and not that many adults apart from parents.

BANFIELD: Did you say 5 or 6 years old girl with her mother? Is she okay?

DELGADO: Obviously I lost eye contact because they were leaving the arena. I always try to be the last person to avoid (inaudible) inside the arena

when we heard the bang and everyone ran from that one other place. What I was trying is to keep the eye contact and being close to my friend and my

group, not to lose any of my friends. That was the main (inaudible), number one.

BANFIELD: Did you find all your friends, Ivo?

DELGADO: What`s that?

BANFIELD: Did you find all your friends? Are they all okay?

DELGADO: Yeah, we were all fine. We asked if there was anything we could do. It just makes you feel like (inaudible) if there is something that you

can do to help anyone. At that moment, you are just really coward to do anything with a lot of screaming and a lot of parents shout.

BANFIELD: Ivo, where are you now? Were you able to get home? Where are you?

DELGADO: I`m at home. I`m at home. I live quite close to the arena.

BANFIELD: Were you able to get away by train, car? How are most people getting away from that concert venue?

DELGADO: Sorry?

BANFIELD: Were you able to get away by train? Is the Victoria station connected or by car? How are most people getting away?

DELGADO: I live like 10 minutes away from the arena so I could walk.

[20:35:00] On the way walking out because we didn`t know what happened, if it was -- we hear like an explosion but I only heard one. Some people say

two. I only heard one. And you don`t know what happened.

It might be a technical mistake or something but when we start walking back home, we saw constantly police cars, constant ambulance, so it`s when you

realized that something bigger than you think might have happened.

BANFIELD: Ivo, stand by. Don`t go away. I just want to update our audience watching that you see on your screen 19 dead, 50 injured in possible

terrorist attack. I can tell you this, that investigators are now looking at the possibility of a suicide bombing in this area. This is according to

one western law enforcement official and one U.S. law enforcement official.

It appears this is a preliminary stage of the investigation that a possible suicide bomber may have detonated as concert goers were leaving the venue

following the concert. Officials are cautioning the situation is fluid and that they are saying the investigators are looking for further information.

There you have it.

U.S. law enforcement officials familiar with the situation in Manchester saying that they are in fact investigating the possibility now of a suicide

bomber. Ivo, just quickly, what is your local media -- I`m not sure if you have a television on in your flat or if you are able to see some local

media, what are they reporting there about the very latest in what is happening?

DELGADO: I`m not really watching TV. I was mostly on the phone with my family to make them -- I`m Spanish, I live in England. Everyone know I`m in

Manchester and at the concert. I`ve been trying to contact people to say that I`m fine, not to worry for what they are going to see tomorrow

morning. But I`m not seeing media. What I am seeing constantly, the ambulance going through the situation.

BANFIELD: Constant ambulances going by your door right now? Is that what you said, Ivo?

DELGADO: Yeah, constant ambulance. Two helicopters flying constantly around Manchester City center and there were police cars and even security police

cars with the sirens on. That`s mostly our soundtrack of the night.

BANFIELD: And are you still seeing people flooding out into the streets? Do you still see a lot of people who are trying to get to where they need to

go, if they are along their way and they can`t get a train?

DELGADO: Well, I am standing now near the center. It is quite late at night. Not that many people in the streets at the moment. I don`t know

(inaudible) because obviously we left. But to where I am right now, there are few people on the streets.

BANFIELD: If you`re walking distance away from this concert venue, Ivo, I`m going to tell our viewers at the same time I`m going to inform you, that

the police are now saying that they are going to shortly perform a controlled explosion. For anyone living in that area, obviously stressful

and probably very frightening if they don`t know that this is about to happen. They found something.

I don`t know what it is. They are not telling us, at least. And they are about to conduct a controlled explosion. This is not unusual after an

incident like this if they find a package, a bag, something that just doesn`t look right although it is unbelievable to think the number of

people who may have dropped anything they had and run for their lives.

Anthony May, if you`re still with me, the controlled explosion, give me a read as to what they might be looking for or what they might have found in

order to (inaudible) something that significant. I think I may have lost Anthony May, but I believe we may have Matthew Horace from the ATF. Can you

hear me?

MATTHEW HORACE, FORMER EXECUTIVE AT BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, AND FIREARMS: Yes, I can. Can you hear me?

BANFIELD: Yes. Thank you so much. I was just about to ask Anthony May who is a retired ATF. We`re learning that they are going to detonate something

shortly, a controlled explosion. And I just want to get your expertise on this. What sort of discovery would they have had to have made in order to

do this given the fact that there got to be bags everywhere with 21,000 people running for their lives?

HORACE: All right. They have clearly identified something that they suspect to be a -- some sort of explosive or possibly an improvised explosive

device. And they want to make sure that before they move it, the safest thing to do is to clear the area, get a good distance from people and

things, and execute a controlled explosion.

BANFIELD: Would they have had to do something with bomb sniffing dogs in order to know that they are dealing with something that is explosive?

HORACE: It could have possibly been a bomb sniffing dog or a it could have been in a possession of the bomber or someone who is with the bomber,

something gave police a cause to pause and take a look at this bag

[20:40:00] this box, or whatever it is that they are looking at. It is always better to be safe than sorry in situation like this.

BANFIELD: I want to ask you just quickly if you can, weighing on this, if you recall the November 13th Paris attack in which there were three

separate incidents in different parts of Paris, in the stadium, the Stade de France, there were explosions outside the stadium.

And I`m curious if you think that the possibility here, if they are investigating a suicide bombing here, that there would have been no way for

this suicide bomber to get into this venue because of the security measures, because of the bag limitations, because you have to go through

searches, and all this suicide bomber could have done, if this is in fact what happened, is detonate outside.

HORACE: Right. Well, there are two distinct possibilities, a number of possibilities. But certainly in the prior bombing that you mentioned and

even ones outside from that, there has been what we call secondary and tertiary devices.

And any time there is one, we`re always going to look for two or three or four other devices as a means to provide distraction and cover or something

more as part of the overall plan. This could have been the plan of a suicide bomber, undetected inside of the stadium and other devices outside

of the stadium where they did not have to worry about them clearing security.

BANFIELD: So with regard to those secondary and tertiary explosions, what kind of response inside the venue right now? I mean, who out of the

emergency responders actually enters that building knowing that is a very likely possibility?

HORACE: All right. The first you got to do is you have to secure them. The second thing you have to do is you have to try to determine if there are

any suspicious boxes, bags or the like. In this case, assuming now that the stadium clearance processes were in tact, we`re not as concerned about what

may be inside the stadium as we are about what could be outside the stadium.

BANFIELD: Yeah, we`re just watching some of the images that are coming in, Matthew, as we obviously wait for further information. But I want to once

again reiterate that I`m looking over a list of recent, just recent terror attacks Europe. Paris shooting, April 20th. Stockholm attack, April 7th.

Westminster attack, March 22.

Louvre knife attack, February 23th. Normandy church attack, July 26, 2016. Attacks in Germany, July 2016. The Nice terror attack, July 14th, 2016. The

Brussels bombing, March 22, 2016. The Paris attacks I just referenced, November 13th, 2015. The Charlie Hebdo attack, January 7th, 2015.

This is a partial list, I might add, but it is pretty overwhelming to think the number of times that terrorists have been able to do what they do,

given the ramp up security, given the ramp up investigations. You know, that`s the other thing, Matthew, with regard to investigations, if you find

the (inaudible) from a suicide bomber, where do you go from there? I can`t imagine he would just have a driver`s license that would be lying

conveniently nearby.

HORACE: You know, every one of those cases that you mentioned, the government or governments have been able to draw evidence that was down at

the scene and there was always physical evidence that the bomb makers leave as a result of the construction of the device and their own information.

They had to get to the country somehow, if they want citizens in accurate or identifications and other means, so there has never been a case I am

aware of where we haven`t been able to track down suspects through evidence and identification of them.

BANFIELD: I mean, I`ve got to be honest, I find that fascinating how the forensics can be that accurate, that quick, and track those people before

they can make way to safer shores because that often happens, as well. I want to bring in Alan Duke. He is the editor-in-chief of leadstories.com.

He is in San Francisco. Alan, what are you finding?

ALAN DUKE, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF OF LEADSTORIES.COM: Well, from what I understand, this happened in the foyer of the arena and it was at the end

of the show. So it would have been, if it was a suicide bomber, it would have been timed to get the people as they were exciting from the show. It

was about 10:30, as you know. It wasn`t inside the actual arena but in the foyer according to the police.

BANFIELD: Couple of tweets coming out as you can imagine since this was an Ariana Grande concert. Legions of other musicians and entertainers have

been weighing in with their thoughts about what happened. Lena Dunham saying, "heart breaks for everyone at the Ariana Grande show.

[20:45:00] Terrorism and hatred disrupting a magical escapist experience. Sending all love." From the politicians here in the United States, Senator

Marco Rubio, "our prayers are with the people of Manchester." Senator Chuck Schumer of New York, "my thoughts and prayers for the victims of the

terrible explosion in Manchester and their families." Back to the entertainment world, Mario Lopez saddened by the news out of England.

Keep up with the latest of the situation, prayers up. Just unbelievably sad. Carli Lloyd, sickened by what has happened in Manchester, "this is

literally right around the corner from me. I am safe." Just quickly again, I want to go back to Alan Duke for a moment with the information that`s

just slowly coming in, are the Manchester police updating regularly?

Obviously with 21,000 capacity, there will be a lot of people wanting to know where their loved ones are. This was apparently filled with teenagers

and preteen girls and all sorts of young fans. There has got to be crazy trying to figure out if their loved ones are safe.

DUKE: As a parent, I can only imagine if this were a concert that my daughter possibly had been in. I would be very, very worried. I understand

that the police have been -- there is a Holiday Inn nearby. I haven`t confirmed that there is a Holiday Inn confirmed nearby, that`s sort of

where people are going, but the good news also is that Ariana is okay. We have heard that from her publicist.

BANFIELD: You do know that? That was my next question. We haven`t heard a tweet from her. I think a lot of people were wondering if she was okay this

happened after she had left the stage, right?

DUKE: Yeah, and you know, something like this can really -- she`s okay physically. But emotionally, it`s got to be taking the toll. Because these

are her fans. She is only 23 years old, a nickelodeon television star. She is so cute and so talented. These are her fans, 21,000 people inside this

arena in Manchester, England to hear her.

And this should be a highlight of her career, yet it`s a low light. I mean, this is absolutely just horrible, that someone would attack her fans. I

mean, these are young kids who are very (inaudible) from a nickelodeon star. How devious can you get?

I`ve been in the middle of a terrorist bombing. I`m actually a victim of a terrorist bombing in January 1997. I can tell you what happens when a bomb

goes off. I was there for one of the Eric Robert Rudolph bombs. Remember the southeast park bomb?

BANFIELD: Yeah.

DUKE: Well, yes, he bombed two abortion clinics.

BANFIELD: The Atlanta bomber, yeah.

DUKE: The Atlanta Olympics. I was there -- I`ve actually got a federal victim number and went through that whole process where I was actually on

the scene for CNN. And one of your guests mentioned just a few minutes ago is police have to be careful there are not other bombs because sometimes

the first bomb is just a sucker bomb and in fact, that was the case.

What Eric Robert Rudolph did was he planted this first bomb and it exploded and everybody came to the scene, ATF, FBI, local police and reporters,

journalists like me. But then there was another bomb that was hidden, timed with a clock to go off about, I think it was about an hour or two hours

later. And it was put right at the area where the responders would be calculate to have their headquarters and in fact it exploded and injured a

number of people.

That is the bomb that created all the problems. I can tell you that when a bomb goes off, you`re just stunned. Time just stands still. And you just

look around. And I remember looking around and there was a firefighter right in front of me with blood dripping down his head. My first instinct

was to jump behind a brick wall.

It`s something that has emotional impact even this many years later. It`s been 20 years, more than 20 years now. And I still, when I hear loud

noises, it still has an effect on me. So I can only imagine. This must have been a very traumatic time and of course, what is the death toll now,

Ashleigh?

BANFIELD: 19 dead and 50 injured.

DUKE: Fifty injured. That doesn`t count even the people who will suffer just the trauma, perhaps what happened with me was a hearing loss to some

degree as a result of that.

BANFIELD: I never knew that about you.

DUKE: Oh, yeah, I was actually -- I was live on CNN right after the first bomb. And then the second bomb happened right after I got off the air doing

an interview, very close to where it was, just a few yards away from what I call the sucker bomb exploded.

BANFIELD: I think of 9/11 the same way

[20:50:00] because obviously two planes hit the towers and I watched the north tower come down straight above my head and I`ve never been the same

since. And I was paralyzed. I have absolutely no idea that building was coming down to where I was standing. And I know exactly what you mean.

There is utter confusion, normalcy floods from you and it`s like apocalypse. You just don`t know what it is.

DUKE: And you never forget a second of it, do you?

BANFIELD: No. And I will be honest with you, you`re absolutely right to say that 50 injured doesn`t begin to explain it because I`ve never been the

same and I think so many people who were there will never be the same and that is what terror is all about. It is about changing people and making

them change their thinking and change their politics and that`s how this war is fought on their side.

They don`t fight conventionally. They fight through scaring people and this is what they do to scare people. They take one body and they blow it to

bits and hopefully terrorize an entire globe. Matthew Horace, I want you to jump in if you will for me for a moment. The controlled explosion. We are

being told by the Manchester police it was not a suspicious item.

It was exactly the question I had earlier. It was abandoned clothing with 21,000 people running for their lives. That has to be a repeated pile every

few feet. How on earth they did sort through which piles are clothing, which piles can be deadly?

HORACE: You know, they are going to use explosive detecting K9s to do sweeps and run through at the area. They are going to use other imaging

techniques to try to determine if there are other divices. But remember, until they do that, until that entire scene, which is a really big crime

scene at this point becomes secure, no one is truly safe. This is going to be days and days and days until we get the scene totally secured and

totally processed.

BANFIELD: I don`t it`s lost in our viewers, when they look at these images, you can see that we blurred a lot of them. These are victims. I think you

can obviously see from these pictures that yes, some of them are grownups but many of them are little or at least young. I saw at least one image of

a child that looked to be about 10.

We have a witness, Ivo Delgado, who told us we saw a 5 or 6-year-old girl. Ivo also told us that it appeared to him at least half of that concert

venue, so maybe 10,000, maybe somewhere around 9 or 10,000 of those concert goers were young teenagers, preteen kids because that`s Ariana Grande`s

demo. So that is just really horrifying to think those little kids might have been a target, might have actually been the reason that that concert

was chosen.

I want to just quickly read if I can from Sam Ward. Sam is an eyewitness who lives 200 meters from the arena. He said, we had extremely loud bang,

nothing like I`ve ever heard in this venue before. And as we were just talking, seven ambulances exited the Manchester Central Fire Station,

lights, sirens flashing, rushing to the arena. Large number of ambulances left that venue.

I`m currently looking at a roadblock. Twenty-five ambulances on the pavement just literally sitting there waiting. Five or six engines, that`s

all I can see. All with the crews standing by. They are waiting to be given the nod again just to go. Very large police presence.

I don`t know if you can hear the siren. He was obviously doing this interview on the telephone.

They are kicking up again, the sirens. Seems to be coming in waves, all the convoys. None of the vehicles seem to be moving on their own. They seem to

be five or six deep at anyone`s time. The firemen running into the fire station now, I`m not too sure what is happening there. It`s just absolutely

mental at the moment. 200 meters from the arena and about 100 meters away from the City Central Fire Station which is a very large fire station.

The area still is very quiet, very quiet for the city center after the first wave of sirens and initial evacuation. It was filled with cars. The

roads were actually bedlam. People actually going through red lights. It was very much families, kids, moms, dads. They were doing everything to get

out of the city center. And it looks like the emergency services did a very good job of monitoring that traffic because it was bedlam for about five

minutes.

But now everything is still. We have some helicopters hovering extremely low. This is the aftermath of the incident as described by Sam Ward who is

an eyewitness living just not far from the area. I think we have another guest who is joining us. Andrew Tatrai, crowd control and venue management.

I hope I got your name right. Andrew, can you hear me?

ANDREW TATRAI, CROWD CONTROL AND VENUE MANAGEMENT: Yes, I can.

BANFIELD: Andrew, help me to understand.

[20:55:00] How the police would even begin to put this situation under control with that many people affected by a terrorist incident?

TATRAI: Well, it`s nearly impossible because of the human panic that sets through the crowd and it ranges through and nearly impossible to calm until

time takes it`s toll. The control for human panic is difficult. The problem is inside a venue. The venue has designed vigorous requirements with fire

doors and the like designed for an orderly egress.

But when you get an incident like this, the panic of the crowd overrides those requirements and egress requirements aren`t big enough. And quite

frankly in today`s age and terrorist activity, it might be time to rethink how we create the requirements because we might need to double them or make

them larger to handle a panicked crowd on the way out.

People won`t stop panicking until they can retain their own personal safety and that means they need their own space back and they need to be away from

the danger, which is -- could be hundreds of meters or kilometer or so.

BANFIELD: You know, I`m just getting some information that, Andrew, maybe a reason why this particular venue was targeted. Manchester Arena, if you

don`t know, is one of the busiest venues in the world. And it is the largest indoor arena in all of Europe. It opened in 1995. It`s so big that

it hosts acts like You 2 and the Stones and Madonna, lady Gaga, Luciano Pavarotti. It even held 2002 commonwealth game events, 2012 Olympic

basketball match between USA and Great Britain.

Obviously, this is one of the larger venues that a terrorist might find appealing if that is in fact what this turns out to be. One question for

you, Andrew, when you said human panic is very difficult to control, how do they stop the stampede from causing even more death or is it possible some

of the bodies and dead reported might have been from that?

TATRAI: As you`re aware, none of us understand the real facts at this point in time. Manchester Arena is a beautiful modern arena with great egress

because they have a great safety code over there. However, the point before was that safety code really doesn`t take into account for the panic that

terrorism and scare causes within the crowd as much as it could given to these activities.

There is no real way to stop the crowd rushing and panicking. Many psychologists going back for hundreds of years have always discussed why is

that human (inaudible) particularly as a group (inaudible) so much a concern of any venue manager or crowd managers (inaudible) and the power of

a crowd as somebody put it is unstoppable.

That`s why the crowd can at times crash themselves to death. But given a lot of threatening circumstance, given the fear and perception and the

concern in the community, it doesn`t take a lot to panic a crowd that you couldn`t have handled it.

BANFIELD: Alan, I appreciate you weighing in. Alan is a private crowd control and venue management director. I do want to let you know that

Ariana Grande`s music label has put out a statement. Universal Media Group is the umbrella group for Grande`s label, Republic Records. And they said

this on Facebook. "We are deeply saddened to learn of tonight`s devastating event in Manchester. Our thoughts and prayers are with all those affected

by this tragedy."

No mention of Ariana herself at this point. But just to get you completely up to speed with everything that we know now. It looks to be 19 dead at

this point, 50 injured in a situation that could obviously have been so much worse if the explosion did indeed come from a terrorist with a suicide

pack outside in the foyer. It was not inside that concert venue.

At this point, those pictures show what appears to be at least half, teenagers and pre-teenagers in a 21,000 person venue. There will be a lot

of fallout from this. We`re going to continue to watch this story as well. Thanks so much for staying with us tonight. I`m Ashleigh Banfield. Please

stay tuned "FORENSIC FILES" starts right now.

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