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Russian Lobbyist At Meeting; Trump Returns; Interview with Rep. Adam Kinzinger; Trump's Trip to France; Lobbyist Attended Trump Jr. Meeting; Schiff Responds to Trump Jr. Meeting. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired July 14, 2017 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, I'm Jim Sciutto in for Wolf Blitzer. It is 1:00 p.m. here in Washington, 7:00 p.m. in Paris, 8:00 p.m. in Jerusalem. Wherever you are watching from around the world, thanks very much for joining us.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

SCIUTTO: And we begin with breaking news surrounding a secret meeting last summer between Trump campaign officials and a Russian lawyer. A source familiar with the meeting tells CNN that other people were there, in fact, besides those who previously had been disclosed.

The Associated Press revealing today that a Russian lobbyist was also there meeting with Donald Trump Jr., Jared Kushner and Paul Manafort.

CNN Justice Reporter Shimon Prokupecz is with me here in Washington. CNN Correspondent Jessica Schneider live at the White House.

Shimon, tell us what we know about this lobbyist. This was a well- known and fairly influential figure.

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, quite influential and quite well known among a lot of people in Washington, journalists and some of the lawmakers. You know, we've talked to him. People have talked to him. Lawmakers have talked to him.

His name is Rinat Akmetshin. He's been a D.C. resident for quite some time. And he was doing some work for this woman who, sort of, scheduled this meeting. He, kind of, was in this meeting with the Trump folks as well, and Don Jr. and Jared Kushner.

And so, he was hired by her to do some of the lobbying on this Magnitsky Act.

SCIUTTO: Which is a major issue for Russia. It penalizes Russian officials and ala guards. It basically sanctions them.

PROKUPECZ: That's correct. It's a major issue and it's something that the lawyer has been working hard to, sort of, overturn.

So, she hired him to do some of this work and he was in this meeting.

So, there are a couple of questions surrounding him. You know, there are some reports that he's this intelligence official and there have --

SCIUTTO: Do we know that to be true, though?

PROKUPECZ: Well, we don't have that independently. But just back in June -- actually, back in April, the head of the Judiciary Committee, on the Senate side, sent a letter to the Department of Homeland Security where he was asking questions about him, about Rinat.

And he wrote this, quote, "that he's a Russian immigrant to the United States who has been accused of acting as an unregistered agent for Russian interests and apparently has ties to Russian intelligence." This is Senator Chuck Grassley, just in April wrote this letter.

SCIUTTO: The GOP chairman, we should note, of the Judiciary Committee.

PROKUPECZ: That's correct which is interesting. And now, he's in the news.

SCIUTTO: Right.

PROKUPECZ: So, the question now is going to be whether or not the FBI was aware of him. We have no indication that the FBI was aware of him. This meeting took place in June. The FBI investigation doesn't start until July.

And, also, you know, if he was of concern to the FBI, you would think he would -- they would have been tracking him already. And even this lawyer, this woman. If she was of concern to the FBI, for here working as a foreign intelligence officer, that they would have been tracked by the FBI.

And so far, we have -- we don't have any indication that they knew that this meeting was taking place. You know, is this something they just missed or was this just something that they were not concerned about?

SCIUTTO: OK. Jessica Schneider, I'm going to have difficulty counting the number of stories and descriptions of this meeting so far just in the last just six or seven days. But this is one more change, is it not, to the White House, to Donald Trump Jr.'s account of who was at this meeting and what this meeting was about?

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It is, Jim. Just with Donald Trump Jr., himself, he's changed his statement twice. But really over the past week, all indications coming from the White House and from Donald Trump Jr., himself, were that the only people inside this June 2016 team meeting were Donald Trump Jr., then campaign Chair Paul Manafort, Jared Kushner as well as this Russian lawyer, Natalia Veselnitskava.

However, all of those indications, and most of them, did come from Donald Trump Jr., himself, who's statements and stories seemed to fluctuate.

Of course, it was on Saturday night that he issued that first statement saying that he met with this person largely to discuss Russian adoption. It's interesting to note, in that statement, he referred to it as "the person," indicating that it was only one person.

But then, of course, we heard from him clarifying in another statement on Sunday, saying that he did meet with this Russian lawyer. He said he was promised some dirt on Hillary Clinton. He said he didn't end up getting that dirt, getting that information. Instead, the conversation shifted again to Russian adoptions.

But, of course, there were two different statements. But then, Donald Trump Jr. tried to put a point on it when he went on that interview Tuesday night with conservative host Sean Hannity. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEAN HANNITY, HOST, FOX NEWS: So, as far as you know as far as this incident is concerned this is all of it?

DONALD TRUMP JR.: This is everything. This is everything.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHNEIDER: So, no indication that anyone else was present at that meeting. Of course, Donald Trump Jr. has consistently said that his father knew nothing of this meeting. That's something that the president, himself, has also said, saying he didn't know about it until several days before those e-mails were released.

[13:05:04] Of course, President Trump, while he was in France, referred to his son as a wonderful young man. Again, stressing he didn't know anything about the meeting.

But now, of course, we do know. A source tells CNN that there were more people in this meeting. And we know from the Associated Press that it was this Russian-American lobbyist.

One thing to note, however. When Donald Trump Jr. released those e- mails on Tuesday, there were several e-mails in that chain. All of them between him and Rob Goldstone, the publicist that set up this meeting.

Interestingly, in that e-mail chain, Rob Goldstone said this, he said, I will send the names of two people meeting with you for security. So, that pointed right there to the fact that there may have been something -- someone else.

Now, we know there was someone else in addition to that Russian lawyer. Of course, it was the Russian-American lobbyist, Rinat Akhmetshin. And we know now that he was there. He confirmed it to the Associated Press.

Jim, what we're hearing from White House officials, they say that aides are aware of these changing stories, and, of course, they're not pleased with it -- Jim.

SCIUTTO: Jessica Schneider at the White House, Shimon Prokupecz, thanks very much.

I want to get right now immediate reaction to the breaking news. Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger of Illinois. He joins me now live from Capitol Hill. Congressman Kinzinger, I'm sure, like our audience, you've had trouble keeping track of the many versions and accounts of this meeting, supposedly transparency.

But, in fact, many of the details held tight until revealed by various media outlets. What does this say to you about this -- really, this lack of clarity coming from the president's son on this meeting?

REP. ADAM KINZINGER (R), ILLINOIS, FOREIGN AFFAIRS COMMITTEE: Well, it's hard to say exactly what it means, because I'm not in the mind of how they're doing it.

What I will tell you is if I was advising the White House, I would say, look, all this information, just get it out there. Any contacts that were had. Anybody that was at these meetings. Because it will come out.

And the longer the story changes, the more the story changes, the more people begin to wonder. So, get all of this information out there.

I would advise the White House to talk about some of the pro -- some of the anti-Russian things you're doing. Syria. Let's get the sanctions bill done, et cetera.

But I would say, all of this information, put it out there on the table because it's coming. And so, let's just get it done.

SCIUTTO: Congressman Kinzinger, if a contact reached out to you and said -- and you're in a campaign, fighting a hard-fought campaign and said that they have information that might be helpful to you, damaging to your opponent and its sourced from the Russian government. How would you react?

KINZINGER: I would save the e-mail or write the phone call down. I would notify the FBI of the contact that just happened. And then, they would determine if they want me to take the meeting for counter espionage reasons or if I should not take the meeting.

But that is standard practice. Even if it was our great friends in Canada and they said, we have information on behalf of the government of Canada, I would contact the FBI.

This is -- I think the thing people need to remember, we do intelligence very differently than the Russians do. They don't have FSB, former KGB agents walking around with a KGB uniform. They use cutouts.

They use people near association with the government, friends of friends, et cetera, to begin to test the waters, to see information, to see the -- you know, whether or not they can pass information or get clues, et cetera.

And it appears that this is the Russian government's attempt to try to do this. I don't know what the outcome is.

SCIUTTO: Was it unethical, un-American, if not illegal, to not inform the FBI of that meeting and the intention of the meeting?

KINZINGER: I don't know the laws of it. I've seen a lot of law experts that say, you know, technically, there's nothing illegal about it. I don't know. I don't know espionage law that well. I know it's improper.

And I know that when you're in a position, whether as an elected official or somebody that's running for office or in a public, I guess, situation like that, it really is incumbent on you to do it.

Because, again, whether anything came out of this meeting or not, the fact is you need to expose this operation that's happening, because these people may go from Donald Trump Jr. to, you know, somebody in the Clinton campaign or somebody in the Sanders campaign or wherever, to try to do this. And we need to know that and stop it when it happens.

SCIUTTO: There's been -- from the beginning here, this is such a broad investigation into Russia. The meddling as well as possible connections and contacts between Trump aides and Russians during the campaign. Of course, there's always been this question of collusion hanging out there.

We've heard repeatedly, for months from the president and from others on down, saying there's no evidence of collusion whatsoever. This is a media hoax. It's a conspiracy, et cetera. I know you're not on the investigating committees.

But as a Republican Congressman and as someone with an interest in your country, do you see the revelation of this meeting and the stated intention of this meeting at least as evidence that needs to be tracked down to see if, in fact, there was collusion cooperation?

KINZINGER: Well, absolutely, I think it's evidence that needs to be tracked down. I think, you know, basically in reading media and media reports and, kind of, talking in the halls here, I gather certain information about what's going on but not as informed as the committee is or as Robert Mueller. That's where that determination is going to come out of, either exonerating or making that declaration.

[13:10:08] But I can tell you, what I worry about in the long term is any coordination whatsoever, collusion, not collusion, anything, with a foreign government in an election risk undermining the whole republic and the whole democracy.

And my concern isn't about 2018. I think Republicans need to understand that the Russians will turn on Republicans very quickly because they don't like Republicans. They don't like Democrats. They hate Americans.

And so, this is their goal is to undermine faith in the institution of democracy and elections. And so, we have to defend against that in a huge, huge and serious way. SCIUTTO: Do you -- you're one of the few Republicans who, in public,

will criticize, for instance, taking this meeting, but also just the larger issue of the administration's lack of attention to the threat from Russia. And lack of attention it seems to the importance of Russia meddling in the election.

For folks at home, have you noticed any change among your Republican colleagues in how disappointed, whether that's the word, angry they are at this -- the administration's handling of this so far? Is anything changing in the Republican caucus?

KINZINGER: It's hard for me to sense. You know, that's -- it's something you'd have to ask each member individually. I think, you know, with every new revolution kind of the feeling is, well, why don't you just get all the information out there? This kind of steady every two weeks something new is tiresome.

And we know this information's going to come out. Robert Mueller at least is going to put it in his report.

And so, I think there is some frustration, in terms of that the messages from the White House -- you know, we're trying to do health care. We're trying to do tax reform. So, we have some pretty big- stroke things we want to do out here. And we need a White House messaging those issues to get it done.

And so, I think there's some frustration there. But I think there's a lot of -- again, you know, we don't have all the details. Let's sit back. Let's get all the -- all the results, all the inputs and see what the -- see what comes out of it.

SCIUTTO: Does that reluctance to get all of the details out there that we've seen repeatedly, and we've seen it play out just in the last few days, does that reluctance indicate to you that the administration has something to hide?

KINZINGER: Not necessarily. That also -- that could indicate that. It could indicate that, you know, they just simply don't have that kind of plan together. So, I don't know, and I think to jump to that conclusion would be too big at this point.

But, again, I think get your message together. I -- the American people are going to find out all the details. Put them out there. We deserve to know this.

But then, we can move on out here in Washington to our big agenda, which Donald Trump and us were sent out to do.

SCIUTTO: Congressman Kinzinger, thanks for taking the hard questions.

KINZINGER: You bet. Any time, Jim. See you.

SCIUTTO: Coming up, the president wrapping up another trip abroad. A look at his time in France and what this round's handshake diplomacy means for the two nations' ties.

And later, look at what the president comes home to. The latest on health care, e-mails, Russia and more.

[13:13:52]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:17:14] JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Those were pictures of the Bastille Day celebrations in France. The soldiers there spelling out the name "Nice." The victims of that horrible terror attack on the one-year anniversary. I remember covering that very well.

French President Emmanuel Macron invited President Trump as the guest of honor of those proceedings. It is the 100th anniversary of the U.S. entry into the First World War alongside France and Britain. Mr. Macron said the president was, quote, assigned a friendship through the ages.

The president and first lady are on their way back now to the U.S. at this hour.

To talk about the trip, I'm joined now by Gerard Araud. He is the French ambassador to the United States.

Mr. Ambassador, thanks very much for taking the time.

The relationship between Trump and Macron, perhaps Trump and France you could say, not particularly warm in recent months. You can say that President Trump appeared to endorse Macron's opponent in the race. So the background, a difficult setup to this meeting. How do you think the meeting went in the end?

GERARD ARAUD, FRENCH AMBASSADOR TO THE U.S.: I think it went very well. First, there was a symbolic aspect. The decoration. You know, really the friendship between our two countries. We are the oldest ally of the United States since 1778. We were together during the two world wars. So it was, I think, a very strong, symbolic message to have the American forces actually marching on the Champs-Elysees with the French - the French (INAUDIBLE) on national day with your president in attendance.

SCIUTTO: But the fact is there are real disagreements. One being global climate change and America's, in effect, withdrawal. The president, President Trump, hinted at something. He said, well, maybe we'll see some change there. I mean is there any substantive - any substantive result on that issue coming out of this meeting?

ARAUD: Actually, I'm going to comment about the American policy, but I think the U.S., the president himself, has always said that he was open to what he calls (INAUDIBLE) negotiations of the Paris agreement. We have always said that really the agreement is an agreement. We can change it. But we are ready to discuss with our American friends what will help them to remain in the agreement.

SCIUTTO: Is that a renegotiation, though, because you need 200 some odd nations to sign on as well.

ARAUD: No. Exactly. I think, you know, in the climate change issue and the Paris agreement, you have the Paris agreement itself and you have also the national decoration, which is presented by each member state. And so, for instance, the U.S. may pretty well change its national decoration.

SCIUTTO: I see.

ARAUD: And the national decoration was presented by the Obama administration.

SCIUTTO: There has been a lot of talk, not just by leaders of U.S. allies, but also adversaries, as to how world leaders handle, manage, Donald Trump. And there's been some talk that, well, one way to do is you compliment, you give a warm welcome. You know, you make him seem and feel welcome and big. And I wonder if in this reception here, did you sense something of that, that Macron said, listen, this is the American president. We have to deal. We are allies. So I'm going to be his best friend, in effect?

[13:20:23] ARAUD: Actually, we, the French, we give a warm welcome to all of our guests. So the president of the United States was our guest, and so we gave him a warm welcome.

No, you have to understand that the problem that we are facing in Europe right now, we have the Russian challenge. We have terrorism. We have migrations. Really is leading us to say more than ever, we, the Europeans, and, we, the Americans, we have to be together. And that, I think, that's the message of the president.

I think the last sentence of President Macron was that, nothing will ever separate us, France and the United States. And I think that's what something that we should remember of this really great visit of President Trump.

SCIUTTO: There was quite a moment in the good-bye, this now famous handshake. And handshakes have become sort of a test in all of President Trump's interactions, not just with the French president. I'm just going to play the video here for our viewers. It lasted, I think we counted, something along 30 seconds or so, and it looks to some perhaps as that neither wanted to let go first. What's your read of that handshake? Was it a little bit of an arm wrestling match or -

ARAUD: Of course, no. You know, really, that's Washington, D.C. reading. I think it was very, very warm, very friendly. Look, with the two wives. I think it's wonderful. It's really great. It shows that the visit has been quite a success. That the two men and also their wives are getting along well together.

SCIUTTO: Final question. We know that the French people - and I'm not going to ask you to speak for the entire French nation -

ARAUD: Yes.

SCIUTTO: But when you look at surveys, they do not particularly like President Trump. Does a trip like this, though, we know that his wife, for instance, got a good reception by the public in France. Does a trip like this, do you think, move the needle on how the French view President Trump?

ARAUD: Well, first, you know, people were saying, oh, there will be demonstrations against President Trump. There was no demonstration in Paris. And there was a poll saying, do you approve the invitation of President Trump by President Macron and the answer was 59 percent, yes. Because, you know, there is Donald Trump, but he is the president of the United States. And we respect him as the president of the United States. And especially on Bastille Day.

SCIUTTO: Let me take a moment to wish you a very happy Bastille Day.

ARAUD: Thank you very much.

SCIUTTO: Hope you enjoy it. I'm sure you're going to be celebrating tonight.

ARAUD: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: The French ambassador, Gerard Araud, thanks very much.

Just ahead, stunning new details about the secretive meeting involving, among others, the eldest son of the president and a Russian government lawyer. Turns out a Russian lobbyist and possible foreign agent was present as well. We'll be discussing that and much more with my panel when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:27:28] SCIUTTO: We're following breaking news involving that secret meeting between top Trump campaign officials and a Russian lawyer last summer. CNN learning within the last few hours that other people were in fact at this meeting, other than what had been previously disclosed by Donald Trump Jr. and the administration.

Russian lobbyist Rinat Akhmetshin tells "The Associated Press" that he was also there meeting with Donald Trump Jr., Jared Kushner and Paul Manafort. This lobbyist is known to U.S. government officials. Earlier this year in a letter to Homeland Security, Republican Senator Chuck Grassley requested, quote, "all information" on Akhmetshin and describing him as, quote, "a Russian immigrant to the United States who has been accused of acting as an unregistered agent for Russian interests and apparently has ties to Russian intelligence."

CNN's senior congressional reporter Manu Raju joins us now from Capitol Hill.

Manu, I understand you just spoke with the ranking Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, Adam Schiff. Strong words from him on this.

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER: Yes, no question about it. In fact, saying that absolutely he wants the House Intelligence Committee to interview this Russian-American lobbyist and anybody else who was at the meeting. He said there are a lot of questions about who else was at the meeting. He himself does not know that. Also raising some significant concerns about Jared Kushner's own

security clearance, saying at the very least if he did omit some of this key information that should be disqualifying. As well as Mr. Schiff responding that concerns that the House Intelligence Committee's investigation is moving slow, frustratingly slow. In the words of the top Republican running that investigation, Schiff responding to that, as well his calls for Roger stone, that former Trump adviser, to testify soon before his committee. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: Congressman, what was your reaction to seeing these reports of this Russian-American lobbyist being in the meet at Trump Tower with Donald Trump Jr.

REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D), CALIFORNIA: Well, yet another disturbing set of facts. It's alleged that this additional person has a background in Russian intelligence and was involved in litigation in New York where there were allegations that he was involved in illegally hacking a rival company and publishing the results of that.

I think whether this person has an intel background or not, the message was very clear from the Trump campaign. They welcomed the help of the Russian government. That message was certainly sent privately by Donald Trump Jr. in those e-mails where he said he would love to get their help. Those were also sent very publicly by the president himself speaking quite openly saying, hey, Russians, if you're listening, hack Hillary Clinton's e-mails. You'll be richly rewarded. And indeed the Russians have been rewarded.

[13:30:05]