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Kushner Makes Post-Hearing Statement; Trump Again Rips "Beleaguered" A.G. Jeff Sessions, Criticizes Deputy A.G.; Trump Warns of "Repercussions" if GOP Health Care Bill Fails to Pass; Mixed Messages from White House Communications Team on Russia Sanctions; Interview with Sen. Ben Cardin. Aired 1:30-2p ET

Aired July 24, 2017 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[13:30:00] WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Let's get some reaction from Democratic Senator Ben Cardin, of Maryland, who joins us from Baltimore.

Senator, what do you think? Jared Kushner's public declaration, he did not collude with Russia, nor know of anyone among the Trump associates who colluded with Russia? Everything, he says, he did was proper?

SEN. BEN CARDIN, (D), MARYLAND: Certainly, he hasn't been transparent. These meetings came out after the fact. He didn't volunteer that information. There's many questions that still remain. The clear point was that he did meet with Russians, the Russian officials, with the Russian lawyer during the course of the campaign in which the meeting was scheduled in order to get information about Hillary Clinton. These are very troublesome meetings. We need to know the substance. His comments today were basically of trying to put a political spin on something that's very, very serious. So let's wait until we see all the facts. Let's do all the investigations. There's lots of meetings going on here, but it is very troublesome.

BLITZER: In his written statement released before his questioning by the committee, the committee staffers, he said he really didn't know what to expect in that meeting with that Russian lawyer. You know, the -- Donald Trump Jr asked him to show up. He went there, said he spent about 10 minutes. It was pretty boring. He sent a text to his assistant asking for a phone call so he'd have an excuse to get out of there. He said he never had read that e-mail chain discussing the alleged dirt that would be provided by the Russians against Hillary Clinton. This is all sworn -- it's not sworn, but if you lie to a committee staff, you could go to jail for that. So do you believe him?

CARDIN: Well, obviously, some of this information's going to be very hard to establish one way or the other. But we know why the meeting was set up. We know that when you go to these types of political meetings you want to have as up information in advance as possible. That's normal operating procedures. So it's hard to believe he didn't know what the purpose of the meeting was that he attended.

BLITZER: Yeah. That's what he said, he had no idea. He just thought he was going to see Donald Trump Jr, and never read that full exchange. Where do you see this going from here?

CARDIN: Well, we're waiting for the investigation. Obviously, we want to see the facts. We want to -- there's a lot of other moving pieces here. We know Russia was engaged in trying to influence our election. We know that these meetings were efforts by at least the Russian officials to get some more information. So what, in fact, did the Americans do at these meetings? Why did they take the meeting with the Russian attorney? That's one of the questions that needs to be answered.

So we want, certainly, to complete the investigations. Our Judiciary and Intelligence Committee, the Department of Justice, the, Mr. Mueller's investigation. I've also felt we should have an independent 9/11-type commission, take a look at what Russia was doing here in the United States.

One thing is very clear, Russia was trying to compromise our free election system. We need to know how they were operating, who helped them, and to make sure this never happens again.

BLITZER: Quickly -- because I want to move on and talk about the Russia sanctions legislation. What do you think about the way the president is treating your former colleague, the attorney general of the United States, Jeff Sessions right now in that tweet that he put out this morning? He tweeted this -- and I'll put it up on the screen one more time. Here it is -- I don't have it right here. But you know the tweet where he called him beleaguered?

CARDIN: Yes. Well, Wolf, first of all --

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: Here it is right there. Let me read it, Senator. Hold on. "So why aren't the committees and investigators, our beleaguered attorney general looking into Crooked Hillary's crimes and Russia relations?"

CARDIN: Well, the attorney general is the attorney general for the American people. It's not the personal lawyer for the president of the United States. It's the people's attorney. And it's the responsibility of the attorney general to make sure that everyone complies with the law. Not directed by the president of the United States on what's to be investigated and what's not to be investigated. This is independent. Clearly, President Trump is trying to interfere with the independence of the attorney general. That's absolutely wrong and should not be tolerated by anyone.

BLITZER: Let's talk about the Russia sanctions legislation. You're the ranking member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. The House and the Senate reached a deal over the weekend to slap Russia with new sanctions. House expected to vote as early as tomorrow on the bill. How significant is this legislation in light of Moscow's meddling in the U.S. presidential election?

CARDIN: Wolf, I think this is a very clear congressional message. We passed the bill, 98-2, in the Senate. I expect you'll see a similarly lopsided vote in the House. Very strong, mandatory sanctions against Russia for their interference in our elections and what they continue to do in Ukraine and Syria. The president is not allowed to withdraw sanctions without a congressional review first, before he can give sanction relief. I think this is a very clear message from the Congress of the United States that we want action taken against Russia, additional sanctions. And we certainly don't want to see any sanction relief while Russia is continuing these types of activities against U.S. interests.

[13:35:24] BLITZER: And I want to quickly get your reaction to what the president also said the other day in that extraordinary interview with "The New York Times," when he referred to the deputy attorney general, Rod Rosenstein, who served as U.S. attorney from Baltimore for a long time. Let me put up the quote from was the president had to say: "Why didn't you tell me this before? I would have then said, who's your deputy? So his deputy, you hardly knew, and that's Rod Rosenstein, from Baltimore. Very few Republicans in Baltimore, if any. So he's from Baltimore." Then he added: "Now he, we went through a lot of things. We were interviewing replacements at the FBI."

What was your reaction when you heard his criticism of Rod Rosenstein, who did -- who was a U.S. attorney in Baltimore, highly regarded. A man I assume you know well. What was your reaction to that?

CARDIN: Well, Rod Rosenstein was very well respected as our U.S. attorney. He was not partisan at all. He worked very well with local officials. He clearly has Republican pedigree. That was not the issue. The issue was whether he would be an independent voice as U.S. attorney. Would he be an independent voice as deputy attorney general? We think he is. That's why we recommended him to President Obama, to retain him as the U.S. attorney, Senator Mikulski and myself. And that is why we also supported his nominee for deputy attorney general.

It's just outrageous that the president would demean Baltimore the way he does. It's not unusual. We know he does those types of tactics. But I think it's just wrong to try to characterize the people of Baltimore. We want justice in this country. We want a U.S. attorney, we want an attorney general to represent the interests of this nation. Everyone in this country -- no one's above the law. Everyone needs to be held accountable.

BLITZER: Senator Ben Cardin, of Maryland, thanks very much for joining us.

CARDIN: Thank you.

BLITZER: Coming up, the other big story hanging over Capitol Hill right now, the Republican plan to repeal Obamacare. The president is expected to address the issue in just a couple hours or so, as his leadership scrambles for votes. We'll have the latest when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [13:42:00] BLITZER: President Trump trying to step up the pressure on his fellow Republicans to pass a health care reform bill. The president about to make a statement later this afternoon. Earlier today, he tweeted this, quote, "Republicans have a last chance to do the right thing on repeal and replace after years of talking and campaigning on it." He also tweeted, quote, "If Republicans don't repeal and replace, the disastrous Obamacare, the repercussions will be far greater than any of them understand."

Let's go to our congressional correspondent, Phil Mattingly, joining us from Capitol Hill.

Phil, first of all, update us on where the health care debate stands now and what happens next?

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The big question, Wolf, is whether or not they can get the votes to actually start the debate on the bill. That's the goal for this week. Senate leaders are targeting tomorrow as the first opportunity to have that procedural vote.

But the most interesting on it now, Wolf, is what you laid out. The White House has started a full-on public blitz. You've got the president's statement in a couple hours. Over the weekend, Vice President Mike Pence in Ohio putting pressure on Senator Rob Portman, a Republican holdout up to this point. Ad later this evening, the president travels to West Virginia, where Shelley Moore Capito, the West Virginia Republican Senator, will be joining him. She's another holdout. This is the type of effort, Wolf, that we're used to in past administration. And, frankly, the type of effort you've heard from a lot of senior Republicans they wish the White House had been pushing up to the point. The real question becomes now, Wolf, is it too late? As they go into this week, nobody really thinks they have the votes to move forward on this yet. Some serious arm twisting by the administration. The question becomes, can they turn these votes over the course of the next 24, 48 hours to get the process on track? We'll have to wait and see.

BLITZER: We certainly will. We'll watch it together with you every step of the way.

Phil Mattingly, up on Capitol Hill.

Up next, the new Russia sanctions bill is triggering mixed signals out of the White House. Will the president sign this bipartisan measure that puts more pressure on the Kremlin? Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:48:09] BLITZER: Lawmakers set to vote on slapping new sanctions on Russia for election meddling. The bill has wide support from both parties, but will the White House support it? It depends on who you ask.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANTHONY SCARMUCCI, WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: He hasn't made the decision yet to sign that bill one way or the other.

He'll make that decision when he makes it.

SARAH HUCKABEE SANDERS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: We support where the legislation is now. We'll continue working with the House and Senate to put those tough sanctions in place on Russia.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Let's discuss this and more with our chief national security correspondent, Jim Sciutto. And Margaret Talev, senior White House correspondent for "Bloomberg News" and the new president of the White House Correspondents Association. And Jeff Mason, the White House correspondent for Reuters and the outgoing White House Correspondent's Association president.

Margaret, congratulations. Today is your first day as president.

MARGARET TALEV, SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, BLOOMBERG NEWS & PRESIDENT, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT'S ASSOCIATION: It is. Thank you, Wolf.

BLITZER: Good work.

And, Jeff, thanks for the good work you did as the outgoing president.

What do you think of these conflicting messages? You covered the White House on a daily basis. We hear one thing from one person and another from another, literally minutes apart.

JEFF MASON, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, REUTERS & FORMER PRESIDENT, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT'S ASSOCIATION: It's hard to say. My first impression when I heard the two clips was maybe Sarah was more in the know and that Anthony hadn't actually discussed it with the president. It doesn't seem like she would have gone out and said that if she hadn't had that conversation. I don't know. That will no doubt be something that they will realize they need to be sure and talk ahead of time, and get their story on the same page.

BLITZER: New White House communications director. Are you hearing there could be more changes, a bit little more shake-up coming up?

TALEV: Two things to watch for. One is what changes he wants to install and the other is how he intends to serve? Does he intend to serve as a traditional communications director role or is it the role that gets him in the door and things shift around a little? I think Jeff is right that he's still getting his feet wet and familiarizing himself. Although he's not on the clock just yet, he's at the White House now all day, as we speak. We may expect to see him traveling. But I would be -- I think President Trump has very little room not to go along with the sanctions bill, if it passes.

[13:50:11] BLITZER: If he doesn't, his veto would presumably be overwritten.

MASON: Enormous support in the House and Senate. TALEV: The question I would be looking for is, are there any strings

attached to his support or tacit support for --

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: I was surprised by the conflicting messages we got from the two White House officials. You go out on the Sunday talk shows, you would think you would have a meeting. You know you're going to be asked about this issue.

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: And you sort of come up with the same answer, presumably. That's what normally happens. Did not happen this time.

Jim, let's talk about the intelligence community. We were at the Aspen Institute Forum over the past few days. The Russian meddling in the presidential election. At the Aspen Security Forum, we heard from current intelligence officials, people the president appointed, who said they had no doubt. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAN COATS, DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE: There is no dissent, and I have stated that publicly.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everyone is on board?

COATS: And I have stated that to the president.

MIKE POMPEO, CIA DIRECTOR: I am confident the Russians meddled in this election, as is the entire intelligence community.

ADM MIKE ROGERS, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL SECURITY AGENCY: No doubt at all, and I stand behind the intelligence, the intelligence committee assessment that we produced.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: No doubt at all.

But in an extraordinary exchange that the new White House communications director had with Jake Tapper, we got a very different word from the president of the United States.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTHONY SCARAMUCCI, WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Somebody said to me yesterday -- I won't tell you who -- that if the Russians actually hacked this situation and spilled out those e-mails, you would have never seen it. You would have never had any evidence of them. Meaning that they're super confident in their deception skills and hacking. My point is, all of the information isn't on the table yet. But here's --

(CROSSTALK) JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST, STATE OF THE UNION: Wait, wait, wait, Anthony, Anthony --

(CROSSTALK)

SCARAMUCCI: Let me finish.

TAPPER: You're making a lot of assertions. I don't know who this anonymous person is that said, if the Russians done it, we wouldn't have been able to detect it. But is --

(CROSSTALK)

SCARAMUCCI: How about it was the president, Jake.

TAPPER: OK, it's the --

(CROSSTALK)

SCARAMUCCI: He called me -- he called me from Air Force One.

TAPPER: Yes.

SCARAMUCCI: And he basically said to me, hey, maybe they did it, may they didn't do it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: So everybody else, outgoing intelligence officials, current intelligence officials, people he appointed, say it was the Russians. Everybody agrees, except the president.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPODNENT: The president is creating his own reality here and defending his own reality. He's clearly still able to hire aids who are willing to defend that same reality that contradicts what the intelligence community has assessed here.

Keep in mind, one of the arguments that some in his camp have used, well, those were Obama administration appointees, the Clappers of the world, et cetera, who made this judgment and were in charge when the judgment was made. We saw Dan Coats there. He's President Trump's selection for director of National Intelligence, the senior most intelligence official in the country, who said there is no dissent. That gets to a second point that Trump and others have raised, saying, well, it was only four intelligence agencies, not everybody was on board. Which is, frankly, not true. Ad you hear Dan Coates there, again, saying there's no dissent. That four versus 17 debate -- won't get into it -- but a lot of those agencies, like the Coast Guard intelligence wing, have no business in identifying whether there was -- whether there was a hack. And yet, the president continues to stick to this. We just don't know inside his head why he continues to stick to that at the expense of the credibility of his own intelligence agencies.

BLITZER: Go ahead. MASON: I think it all comes down to any concern that would undermining his victory. You say that in Jared Kushner's statement outside the White House just a few moments ago, where he said any suggestion otherwise about why he won ridicules the voters who put him in the White House. I think that's completely connected to his lack of desire to really embrace the intelligence on the Russia spying.

BLITZER: I interviewed, at the Aspen Security Forum, Margaret, the former director of National Intelligence, James Clapper, former CIA director, John Brennan, and they said the president's criticism of the U.S. intelligence community is so, so counterproductive. I want you to listen to some of what they said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN BRENNAN, FORMER CIA DIRECTOR: When the United States has to go to partner and allies and say, U.S. intelligence has this information, this assessment, and looking for their support, what does it say as far as when we have something about our adversaries that are adversaries can say, well, that's U.S. intelligence, you already say it's not worth the paper it's written on. These types of comments are disgraceful, never should have happened, and the people or the person who said that should be ashamed of themselves.

JAMES CLAPPER, FORMER DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE: I think the intelligence community will continue to convey truth to power, even if the power doesn't necessarily listen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Both really outraged by the president's comparison to Nazi Germany of the intelligence community. It really irritated them.

TALEV: We're all looking at Anthony Scaramucci to understand what new era it will usher in in terms of messaging. But this is a policy and approach set from the top. No change in staff can really shape what the president wants to do more than the president, and what he wants to do and how he wants to shape that, you know?

[13:55:21] SCIUTTO: If I could just add, you were there, of course. Witnessing that conversation with Clapper and Brennan was really a truly somber moment. The former head of the CIA agency, years in the intelligence service under multiple administrations, former director of National Intelligence, after years of service in the military and intelligence, and they were beyond exasperated. They were -- it struck me and I want to share this. They were sad. They were sad about this assault on these institutions here. It was a really remarkable conversation.

BLITZER: You could see the pain. They couldn't believe the president of the United States would speak about the intelligence community, the men and women, the professional, along those lines.

We'll continue to have much more on all of this, but right now, we're out of time.

Jim, Margaret and Jeff, thanks to all of you.

That's it for me. I'll be back at 5:00 p.m. Eastern in "THE SITUATION ROOM."

The news continues right after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:00:10] BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Top of the hour. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you for being with me.

Jared Kushner is --