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PRIMETIME JUSTICE WITH ASHLEIGH BANFIELD

Hunt for Killer; Violent Beat Down Aired; CNN Heroes; Everyday Hero. 8-9p ET

Aired October 26, 2017 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HOST (voice-over): Infamous lady killer Jodi Arias barging into the headlines again.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you kill Travis Alexander on June (INAUDIBLE), 2008?

JODI ARIAS, CONVICTED OF MURDER: Yes, I did.

BANFIELD: Locked up for murdering her ex, she`s now taking aim at her lawyer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She simply snapped, out of control.

BANFIELD: She`s suing him for his tell-all book.

KURK NURMI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY FOR ARIAS: Nine days out of ten, I don`t like Jodi Arias.

BANFIELD: And the sexy secrets she says he leaked.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he ever call you a whore?

ARIAS: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A slut?

ARIAS: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Three hole wonder?

ARIAS: No.

BANFIELD: Now that lawyer says he`s just another victim of Jodi Arias.

Somewhere out there, a killer is on the loose.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You guys, go hunt him down. And bring his-- bring his head to me.

BANFIELD: But police have the pictures they want you to see.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This person looks like they`re just going for a walk.

BANFIELD: That person began to run just as deadly shots were fired.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everybody`s (INAUDIBLE) at everybody.

BANFIELD: Could this smooth walker lead us to a serial killer?

A lawyer shot and killed after walking his kids to school.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All of a sudden I heard like-- sounded like an explosion, gunshot or something.

BANFIELD: Could a major courtroom victory have something to do with his murder?

Kids lying in wait as a pizza delivery man becomes a violent victim, pistol whipped, carjacked, robbed and left for dead, one suspect reportedly just

13. Little did they know cameras caught their every move. Can you help find these dangerous kids?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Good evening, everyone. I`m Ashleigh Banfield. This is PRIMETIME JUSTICE.

Tonight, Jodi Arias is attacking another man, from behind bars this time. But the guy she`s going after is the guy who spent three years defending

her, Jodi`s lead lawyer, Kirk Nurmi, who insisted in court that she killed her ex-boyfriend in self-defense, even though Jodi stabbed him, slit his

throat and shot him in the back of the head. Still, that lawyer said Jodi was the victim in a volatile relationship. But Kirk Nurmi, who has made no

secret of his struggle with that client, at one point telling a jury even he didn`t like Jodi.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KIRK NURMI, JODI ARIAS`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think it`s important to talk about what this case is not about. It`s not about Snow White. It`s not

even about any of the seven dwarves. It`s not about bad haircuts, and it`s not about the sexual orientation of any of the witnesses. It`s not even

about whether or not you like Jodi Arias. Nine days out of ten, I don`t like Jodi Arias.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Objection. (INAUDIBLE)

NURMI: But that doesn`t matter. Your liking her or not liking her does not objectively assess the evidence.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: But evidence wasn`t the only thing the jury had to assess when it came to Ms. Jodi Arias. They saw more of Jodi than the doctor who

delivered her, nude pictures, filthy messaging that made the trial seem more like a porn flick. And nine days out of ten, this was the client that

Jodi`s lawyer did not like. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARIAS: (singing) O holy night, the stars are brightly shining--

INAUDIBLE) your makeup, Jodi girl.

SINGING: I can`t breathe until you`re resting here with me--

He said, You`re a skank. He called me Polyanna. He called me porn star. Really had low self-esteem at this time. It made me feel better, actually.

(INAUDIBLE) I really want to (EXPLETIVE DELETED) I feel so dirty.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Oh, the memories. But now Jodi Arias is locked up for life, no chance of parole. And with all the time that she has on her hands, she

made a decision to sue this guy, that guy who defended her all that time. And she`s demanding all of the money that this man, Kirk Nurmi, made off of

a tell-all book that was published before she had the chance to appeal her case.

[20:05:00]She says he violated the attorney-client privilege, that he lied when he claimed that Jodi was a flirt. She also said that her lawyer was

obsessed with the many, many sexual parts of her case, even going so far as to claim that he blew up naked pictures in evidence and hung them on his

office wall.

And that`s just really scratching the surface of what Jodi Arias is claiming in her suit against Kirk Nurmi.

Brian Skoloff attended the Jodi Arias trial, and he`s also the author of ``Killer Girlfriend: The Jodi Arias Story.`` He joins me live from

Phoenix. So Brian, here we are agin. Nice to see you.

BRIAN SKOLOFF, ATTENDED TRIAL: Nice to see you, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: Heavens to betsy. You know, I kind of figured when I left Phoenix that I left her behind. I really wanted to leave Jodi behind. I

think a lot of people who followed that case, you know, moment by moment were done with her when that final verdict came down, life in prison, no

parole. And yet here we are.

So I wanted to have you on as the man who wrote the book on this young woman to try to walk through some of the things that she`s saying about the

man who did his level best to defend her from the death chair. Walk me through what the case says.

SKOLOFF: Oh, I mean, clearly, she states in the lawsuit that there`s just many untruths in the book that Mr. Nurmi wrote, among them that she flirted

with him throughout the case. Others you mentioned, that he took nude photos from the evidence part of the case, hung them in his office, used

one as a screen saver on his computer, and overall just generally violated the confidentiality of attorney/client privilege. And as you said, she`s

seeking all the money he made from the book and then some.

BANFIELD: Did he make some claim in the book that Jodi had or that he believed maybe Jodi had abused animals when she was younger?

SKOLOFF: Yeah, there were a lot of claims in the book. It`s hard to say what`s true, what`s not. Obviously, this is he said, she said now. But

look, there`s no-- it was obvious Mr. Nurmi wanted off this case from the beginning because he did not have a good relationship with this client.

Throughout this entire trial, he tried to get off this case, and the judge would just not allow him. It was clear they didn`t have a good

relationship, and Jodi was out to get him, in a sense, which was kind of strange since he was there to try and save her life.

BANFIELD: It`s hard to talk about this case, this girl, without having to say things that are almost-- well, that are not suitable for television.

I`m just going to go there because this is one of the claims. So Kirk Nurmi said that during his work with Jodi as a client, that she kept him

informed of her vaginal grooming. This is not the first time I`ve heard this. But this is something that Jodi takes great issue with.

SKOLOFF: Again, all we are left with is Mr. Nurmi`s word against Jodi`s word.

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: You mean Jodi, the girl that lied and lied and lied and lied and stared at us from this witness stand and lied and lied and lied until she

said, OK, I did it?

SKOLOFF: Exactly my point.

BANFIELD: That`s the girl we`re talking about, right?

SKOLOFF: We`re talking about a woman who is obviously a professed liar. She`s lied over and over and over again. Mr. Nurmi obviously is a well

respected attorney. Not right now. He`s taken a voluntary disbarment. But at the moment, again, we have a liar against an attorney who was there

to represent her, and whose word are you going to take?

BANFIELD: So I want to actually read what kirk Nurmi has put out. He declined an invitation to be a part of the program tonight. I understand

that. When you`re facing litigation, it`s kind of tough to accept a television invitation. But he did put out this statement, and I think--

honestly, Brian, I think this speaks volumes. ``In April of 2011, directly after Judge Duncan ordered that I retain Ms. Arias`s case, Ms. Arias

advised me that if I did not follow her every command that she would do her best to ruin my career.``

He went on to say, ``I will continue to fight this battle with vigor as I defend against this lawsuit, which is best viewed as a continuation of Ms.

Arias`s pattern of attacking men whom she feels have wronged her. Of course, no one person has suffered at the hands of Ms. Arias more than Mr.

Alexander, and I look forward to clearing the air on all the derogatory assertions that Ms. Arias made about him as I defend against this

outrageous claim-- these outrageous claims made in this lawsuit.``

Brian, that is a huge thing to say. It is a huge thing to say, ``I look forward to clearing the air on all the derogatory assertions that Ms. Arias

made about Travis Alexander`` because all the way along, it was his case. He presented that she was being abused by this man. I think at one point,

they even tried to float out there that he was a pedophile.

[20:10:06]Are we to believe that at some point, Kirk Nurmi`s going to come forward and say, Everything I said in that courtroom about her and about

her innocence and-- that she was being abused by this man-- I think at point, they ever tried to float out there that was a pedophile. Are we to

believe that at some point, Kirk Nurmi`s going to come forward and say, Everything I said in that courtroom about and about her innocence and about

her being victimized was all crap?

SKOLOFF: Look, Ashleigh, nothing about this case is normal, right, up to the point where we are now. I was very surprised to see Kirk Nurmi even

write a book, as well as the prosecutor, Juan Martinez, while this case has yet to even go to appeal. So we`re in a strange legal world altogether

when it involves this case.

Now we`ve got, as you noted, a defense attorney who is in a sense sticking up for the victim his own client was accused of killing. It`s just so odd,

given that-- look, Kirk Nurmi frankly did his job. He saved Jodi Arias`s life. And now we are where we are now.

BANFIELD: So in the defense, because you just put it out there that she-- you know, he saved her life with this defense, with this whole story that

poor, poor Jodi was a victim in this volatile relationship.

I want to play one of those moments where Jodi was on the stand under direct examination from her attorney, Kirk Nurmi, and she was laying out

after she`d gone to her own baptism and she and Travis were in their church clothes, they came back and then she describes this happening.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARIAS: He bent me over the bed and he was just on top of me. I didn`t think anything-- that he was just going to keep kissing me. I was face

down. I had (INAUDIBLE) His hands were wandering, and he lifted up my skirt and-- and he pulled down my underwear and he was pressing against me.

NURMI: Where was he pressing against you?

ARIAS: His whole body.

NURMI: Did he have an erection?

ARIAS: I could feel an erection. He unzipped his pants and I guess he pulled it down. I didn`t see, but he-- he had anal sex with me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: And we were all led to believe that was a terrible, terrible thing for poor Jodi, even after all those text messages saying, ``Give me

more, I want it all,`` et cetera, et cetera, too pornographic for TV.

So hold on, Brian. I want to play one more thing, and that was how little ms. Jodi Arias changed her tune completely from the original story, was

``wasn`t me`` to this at sentencing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARIAS: The most important thing I want to say is that I am very sorry for the enormous pain that I have caused the people that loved Travis. I never

thought I would cause so many people so much pain. I live every day wishing that I could undo what I did to Travis and wishing that I could

take away their pain, just put it onto myself.

To this day, I can`t believe that I was capable of doing something that terrible. I can`t even-- I`m just-- I`m truly disgusted and I`m repulsed

with myself. I`m horrified because of what I did, and I wish there was some way I could take it back.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANFIELD: She speaks in such a matter of fact way, doesn`t she? I want to bring in Holly Hinson. She was a juror in Jodi Arias` penalty trial. She

also became a close friend of Travis`s sister, Tanishia (ph). That was after the sentencing was over. And she joins me on the phone from Phoenix.

Holly, thanks very much. There`s two reasons I want to talk to you. Number one, as a juror, number two as a friend of the family of the victim

in this case. I wanted to get your reaction specifically to the comment that Jodi`s lawyer, who is now being sued, has said about the things that

he defended her on in court, specifically this comment. ``I look forward to clearing the air on all the derogatory assertions that Ms. Arias made

about Travis.`` That has to be bittersweet for the family of Travis Alexander.

HOLLY HINSON, JUROR (via telephone): Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I think that, you know, during the trial, Travis`s name was definitely tarnished. And

you know, we as jurors got an opportunity to really get to know Travis through text messages and different things that, you know, we got to read

or hear for the last two years that he knew Jodi. So we really got to know who he was.

And so when the trial ended, it was just really important for me to be able to contact Tanishia and really the family to let them know that all of us

11 jurors didn`t believe that Travis was the person that he was being perceived to be, you know. We all have things, and that doesn`t, you know,

really define us as who we are as people. And I feel like he was really just tarnished. You know, and that really wasn`t who he was. He really

was a good person. And it was important that we let the family know that, so--

[20:15:00]BANFIELD: And Holly, as I understand it-- and you correct me if I`m wrong-- one holdout-- one holdout on your panel saying that you should

spare Jodi`s life. How was that for you when there were, as you said, 11 of you voting death and one saying no?

HINSON: It was extremely frustrating for me. You know, we kind of sat in this circle and we each took turns kind of just giving our opinion on each

scenario. And I always was right after her. So it was always my turn after she gave her point of view. And for me, it was just-- I mean, the

way that she had, you know, all of her reasons, and you know, she didn`t have-- there was no proof for it. You know, it was just because, because

she felt that way, you know? And so to us, it just seemed predetermined in her mind more as being stubborn that we weren`t going to change her mind.

So you know, like, once she went in there, she-- you know, she didn`t want to be friends with us. She didn`t want to-- you know, she even said

herself that she kept herself from us so that we wouldn`t, you know, help, you know, change her mind on anything. Well, we were supposed to

deliberate as a group, you know, and take on each other`s consideration. That`s what deliberating was. And that`s not what she was doing.

BANFIELD: Here`s Jodi once again. She wants one more kick at the can. She wants another moment in the sun. And she`s also appealing, so she

wants a few more moments in the sun.

Very, very quickly, Joey Jackson, defense attorney, HLN legal analyst, CNN legal analyst. Can Jodi Arias sue and make money while she`s behind bars?

JOEY JACKSON, CNN/HN LEGAL ANALYST: The answer is she can sue and I think the suit is meritorious. I don`t think, as an attorney, no matter what you

think of Jodi Arias, that you dish on your client. Shouldn`t happen. As to when she wins, where the proceeds go, that`s another matter because

there are laws to protect her from earning money on profits of someone`s death. So where the money goes, who knows, but I think she has a

meritorious claim here.

BANFIELD: It`s a fascinating case.

JACKSON: It is.

BANFIELD: It continues to deliver in ways that we all wish would just go away. Thank you, Joey. Thank you, Holly. And thank you, Brian, as well.

Tampa police have released brand-new surveillance video in that search for the suspected serial killer. Look carefully, very carefully at this video

because they are desperately trying to find this person.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve come up with four reasons why this person is running. One, they may be late for dinner. Two, they`re out exercising.

Three, they heard gunshots. And number four, they just murdered Benjamin Mitchell.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:21:50]BANFIELD: It`s been 2-and-half weeks, and Tampa police still only have one person in their sights, one person who just might have

answers as the entire city searches for a possible serial killer. There is one small problem. They don`t know who the person is. They just know this

is him, caught on camera, walking toward the scene of the first deadly shooting. And now tonight, a brand-new angle with that same person running

fast, away from that scene in the opposite direction.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRIAN DUGAN, INTERIM TAMPA POLICE CHIEF: This person looks like they`re just going for a walk. They don`t look like they`re going out to do

anything other than go for a walk. But the cop in me says, Why are you running seconds after the murder of Benjamin Mitchell, a different

direction from where they were walking? So it appears that they are walking towards where Benjamin Mitchell was and then they are running away

from the scene.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: The newly released video also catches the curious little action on camera, that little phone flip. And the cops say that could be a unique

habit of this person, and they`re hoping that somebody is going to recognize it so they can find out who the person is and what they just

might know about that deadly night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DUGAN: We believe that this person has ties to this neighborhood, and we want to speak to them. There are probably-- I have come up with four

reasons why this person is running. One, they may be late for dinner. Two, they`re out exercising. Three, they heard gunshots. And number four,

they just murdered Benjamin Mitchell.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: It`s pretty serious stuff. CNN correspondent Kaylee Hartung joins me live from Tampa. They upped the reward to $35,000. But has that

made any difference in the tips coming in and the actual leads helping to find this person?

KAYLEE HARTUNG, CNN CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): Not to our knowledge, Ashleigh. The police chief telling us they are receiving hundreds of tips,

and it`s taking time for them to sift through them and also to sift through the video footage like the one we`ve seen now coming from home surveillance

cameras in that neighborhood, as police are going door to door through the Seminole Heights neighborhood.

One, do maks sure that the people know the severity of the situation in that neighborhood? Two, to get a count of who lives in that home. They

want to be accounting for folks who live in the neighborhood and who should be there. Third, they are asking if you have a home surveillance system of

any sort. And if you do, you can register those cameras with authorities, and then if needed, the police are then able to access them. So with that

in mind in all of the video that could be at their disposal in that neighborhood, it`s just taking some time for them to sift through it all.

But the police chief telling us they have gotten hundreds of tips and yet no closer to knowing who the killer could be. This person, as the police

chief really stressed, is not a suspect, that individual who you see in the video. But with the release of the new video today, it helps us all better

understand why the police are making talking to that person such a priority in this investigation.

[20:25:10]Previously, in the first video that was released on October 12th, three days after Benjamin Mitchell`s murder, we saw that individual walking

with that distinct walk and flipping the phone. But with the release of the new video today, you understand that very likely, that person saw or

heard something because they are then running away from the scene of Benjamin Mitchell`s murder just seconds after gunshots were fired.

BANFIELD: Kaylee, thanks. I also want to point out as you look at that video, it`s so critical to notice what he`s wearing. It`s sort of a

hoodie, but the police were critically pointing out the shape of the hoodie, that it`s an unusual or unique kind of shape. And they sort of

called it the garments above that they stand out, that they`re unique looking in some way and they hope that maybe that will help in terms of

pointing out who this person is.

I want to bring in Randy Sutton. He`s a retired Las Vegas police lieutenant. Randy, they have three victims who are all shot. They clearly

have ballistics. It`s now been enough time for them to have assessed whether the ballistics match and to maybe release more information, but

they`re not.

Why do you suppose they`re not?

RANDY SUTTON, RETIRED LAS VEGAS POLICE LIEUTENANT: Well, actually, I think they`ve released too much information. I watched the mayor going off on

television and speaking about everything they`re doing and the police chief, everything they are doing to catch this guy. And personally, I

don`t want him to change his MO because that`s how they`re going to catch him.

This individual-- the most difficult type of murders to solve, especially when you`re talking about three of them, is if they`re not connected.

Victimology is very, very often used to solve these crimes. If it`s true that this suspect does not know these people and they are random killings,

it makes it much more difficult to catch this individual. So the least-- the less information that he knows that they know, the better off for law

enforcement.

BANFIELD: But you can tell that-- man, they are mad, they are really mad in this community. I want to actually play something that speaks to what

you`re just saying, Randy. And that`s the mayor, Bob Buckhorn, and the police chief, Brian Dugan, appealing not only to the community, but also to

the killer. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BOB BUCKHORN, TAMPA MAYOR: He`s not taking over this neighborhood. He`s not taking over these streets. You guys, go hunt him down. And bring his

head to me.

DUGAN: This pains me to tell you that if you`re out there walking alone that you`re either a suspect or a potential victim.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And we will hunt this son of a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) down until we find him!

(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So I want to bring in Joey Jackson. As a defense attorney, I wonder how many people are looking at this. It`s a bit of a frenzy.

Obviously, there are three people dead, mysterious circumstances, no suspects in sight right now. It`s scary. It`s scary to live in Tampa.

JOEY JACKSON, HNL LEGAL ANALYST: Absolutely.

BANFIELD: Let`s just jump ahead to maybe a day when they catch someone, and that someone needs a defense. Are they going to look to those kinds of

comments to say, you were in a frenzy, you were under pressure from the community, you needed to find someone, and you grabbed me at the first

opportunity!

JACKSON: It`s a wonderful point to make because you know the defense is going there. The community is outraged, right, because people are nervous,

Ashleigh. People are scared, so you need the mayor to calm them. You need the police chief to calm them. But at the same time, you made an arrest,

and that arrest was made in haste, wasn`t it? You had a community that was outraged. You`re not doing your job. That`s why you chose my client.

At the same time, I hasten to add that arrests have to be based on probable cause. Police can`t snatch anybody so you want to look at what the

underlying facts are that connect the person they have to the conduct they engaged in.

BANFIELD: Yeah, I want to just play, if I can, Benjamin Mitchell, who`s the first victim in this case-- his aunt, Angelique Dupree, had a few

choice words of her own not only for that killer but for her neighbors and for her community. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANGELIQUE DUPREE, AUNT OF FIRST VICTIM: This is our city, and we`re going to take it back. We`re going to be together. We`re going to rally

together. We`re going to show him that, OK, yeah, you took three lives away from us, but it`s a million more. You can`t touch us. You`re going

to-- we`re coming for you and we`re going to get you. And watch your back now. I`m not watching mine. You better watch yours.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Amen to her. We`re going to continue to follow that story and what happens down in the Tampa community. My thanks to Kayley Hartung and

Randy Sutton.

A Kansas City attorney is shot to death on his front porch after walking his two little boys to school, and some people are now wondering if it

could somehow be connected to a multi-million dollar lawsuit that he recently won.

[20:30:00] [20:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, PRIMETIME JUSTICE SHOW HOST: For one man in Kansas City, Wednesday started off like every other day, probably much the same way you

began your morning. Well known and beloved Attorney Thomas Pickert walked his two young children to school. It was a beautiful day. By all accounts,

not a cloud in the sky. And the chilly morning would give way to a warm 71 degrees afternoon.

But Thomas would not get to experience that fall day to the fullest because just after dropping off the kids while on his Porch, that well known and

beloved attorney was shot to death right there outside his home. It was his wife who found him after hearing the loud noise. And right now police are

trying to piece together who could have killed that man.

And so far it seems to be anyone`s guess. But according to local reports, Tom Pickert had recently won a nearly $6 million civil lawsuit for his

client leaving some people to wonder if that might somehow have been involved.

Dana Wright is a host on New Radio 98.1 KMBZ. She joins me from Kansas City. Dana, are they connecting any dots yet in this crime?

DANA WRIGHT, CO-HOST DANA & PARKS, NEWSRADIO 98.1 KMBZ (via telephone): Well, Ashleigh, it`s important to note that the day before Mr. Pickert was

shot and killed, the court had moved to garnish properties owned by this individual to help satisfy that $5.6 million judgment.

So, on Tuesday the court moved to seize his properties. They set up some type of arrangement where he would not be allowed to withdraw money, to

transfer the properties to someone else. So, they were moving to seize his assets on Tuesday. The attorney was shot in broad daylight on Wednesday.

BANFIELD: That`s awfully curious. All these local media reports -- you`ll have to sort them out for me. But there are witness reports that say they

saw a white van in the area of the shooting at the time of the shooting.

And other witnesses report that or it could be the same witnesses, but there is a second report saying that they heard a car speeding out of the

area. And then even more local media reports say the license plate that we blurred traced back to the guy who lost the case.

WRIGHT (via telephone): Correct.

BANFIELD: That he owned or registered that vehicle. What is the story behind that, and why are the police saying they talked to the owner and

he`s not a suspect, he`s not even a person of interest?

WRIGHT (via telephone): Everything you said is correct up to that point, Ashleigh. I think one of the things we`re seeing -- and I talked to a

police officer today about this -- he says these (INAUDIBLE).

BANFIELD: I think I might have just lost Dana Wright. Do I still have her? Might be a glitch in the system. But if I`ve lost her, let me know. Dana,

are you still there? I think I`ve lost Dana. You know, for one minute while we try to get Dana bark, I want to get Joey Jackson to jump in on this as

well. I find that to be super intriguing this early in the case. Police saying loud and clear, we`ve spoken with the owner of that white van.

JOEY JACKSON, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY, CNN AND HLN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes.

BANFIELD: You saw it being hauled off on a flatbed. We`ve spoken with the owner of that white van. The owner of the white van is the man who

apparently got the judgment of $5.7 million against him.

JACKSON: Yes.

BANFIELD: And this lawyer was the one who won it. And yet the police are saying not even the person of interest.

JACKSON: You know, that confounds me, because I know we talk about this a lot. Motive, of course, never an element of crime. But when you think about

who would motivate a dad, who would motivate -- excuse me -- a person to kill a dad who walked his kids to school --

BANFIELD: Yes.

JACKSON: -- who just got a verdict against him --

BANFIELD: Whose vehicle was right there.

JACKSON: -- whose seizing his assets, whose vehicle was leaving from the scene --

BANFIELD: And who -- they`re taking it away. They found it abandoned later on.

JACKSON: I`m not quite buying that. I think that if anyone had a motivation to do this, it would be that person.

BANFIELD: It`s odd. Dana, do we have you back now? Can you finish your thought?

WRIGHT (via telephone): You did. I apologize.

BANFIELD: No worries. Go ahead. Finish your thought.

WRIGHT (via telephone): So, it`s interesting to note that the man at the center of this lawsuit has a disturbing history of escalating all kinds of

situations with firearms. So, we know he lost this civil suit for shooting a homeless man. In 1990, he was arrested for holding a group of teenagers

at gunpoint for fishing in his pond.

One month after he shot the homeless man, he shot another intruder, and there were no charges filed in that case. And then, wait, there`s one more.

In 2016, he was charged with intimidating a tenant with a weapon in rural Missouri. So, we have all of these pieces

[20:40:00: and certainly a lengthy history of escalating situations with guns. I would also point out today he was seen on video during a deposition

laughing, kind of bragging that he got off three out of five shots when he shot the homeless man that he lost the civil suit case to.

BANFIELD: Holy cow, I was absolutely unaware of those other cases.

WRIGHT: Yes.

BANFIELD: It makes it even more curious that the police are so quick to say he`s not a suspect, he`s not a person of interest. Yes, that`s his vehicle,

and yes, it was hauled off on that flatbed.

And yes, the witnesses said they did see that vehicle in the neighborhood while he was shot. It remains a mystery, but Dana Wright, thanks for

filling us in on some of the blanks. We`ll continue to watch where we go from here.

Meantime, a brutal carjacking caught on camera allegedly committed by teenagers and one of them is reportedly as young as 13. Thirteen. And by

the way, the guy who was laid out was unconscious for days. Police need your help. You`re going to see the full video and up close and personal

pictures of these kids next.

[20:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: You probably don`t even think twice about getting a pizza delivered, right? But for the guy who was actually driving that pizza to

your door, every time they go out, it is an actual risk to their safety. I want to give you a case in point in Philadelphia.

A pizza driver had just delivered a pizza to a gas station when five young men who were lingering outside set upon him. And one of them had a gun. And

the surveillance video is clear as a bell. You can see all five of them here. One of them is on a bike. Pay close attention, OK?

Because this whole scene is played out in its clear ugliness. Four of the young men stroll up. Like I said, the other is on a bike. But from another

angle, you can actually see them as they are waiting outside, almost stalking. Watch what happens when the pizza delivery guy walks out. Here he

is. He`s coming out towards his car.

This guy holds a gun. This guy is apparently 13, this little kid, reportedly. Pizza guy seems to ignore him. Look what happens. Bam, pistol

whips him from behind, lays him out, and then walks off just kind of sticking the gun back into the waistband, wandering around, wandering what

to do next, all of them, wondering what to do next, looking at him.

Kid with the gun in his waistband still wondering what to do next, but decides to walk around the front of the car, casual, not the least bit

concerned, as his pal gets into the driver`s seat and decides to make off with the car. The pistol whipper now is rifling through the victim`s pants

and pockets. Friend takes off with the car, pistol whipper, yes, look at you, you found something.

Maybe a fist full of cash, who knows. There you go. Thirteen, according to local reports. Not only held him at gunpoint, laid him out with a gun,

pistol whipping the back of his head. He was out for three days unconscious in a coma. Pistol whipper then decides to go to that unconscious person and

steal while his friend stole the car.

Local reports say the friend right there who decided to get into the driver`s seat and make off with the vehicle is only 16. There you have it.

Friday night, 11:00 p.m., where are your kids? That`s where these kids were.

We don`t know about the other ones because all the police can tell us at this point is that they were somewhere between 14 and 25 years old. But the

local reports say that at least two to three of them are actually identified now or at least have been brought in, but no arrests have been

made yet, which is unusual.

And we do know from local reports, one is 13, one is 16. See up at the top of your screen there? Look at that car. That car saw the whole thing. That

car right up there in the top -- watching all of this. Look at it, pulling up in the left-hand side there. Coming around.

That witness saw everything. Now, whether the police had been able to talk to that witness, I don`t know. But it is remarkable, no one got out of that

car, and that car did not speed off in fear either. That car saw it all.

I want to bring in Joey Jackson to walk me through this. Thirteen years old and apparently that`s the one who did all three of those things. Held

someone up at gunpoint, and when that wasn`t working out, clocked him in the back of the head laying him out for three days, and when that wasn`t

good enough, rifled through his pants and stole whatever was in the pockets.

JACKSON: Yes. From a human perspective, I mean, what is happening with our youth? You know, this is the type of behavior they`re engaging in. So, from

a human perspective, it`s troubling, sickening, sad. And we just have to do a better job educating our youth not to engage in behavior like this.

BANFIELD: But, you know, our viewers want to see that kid treated as an adult get away for life.

JACKSON: Yes. Now here`s the legal question which I knew you are going to get to, Ashleigh, and that`s this. If he were 14 years old, the fact that

he had a deadly weapon and the fact that he struck this person and used it, he could have been treated as an adult. Fourteen.

But the fact that he`s 13 means it`s a juvenile court. Here`s the distinction. Juveniles, we`ve spoken about, it`s about rehabilitation. It`s

not about custody and punishment like in an adult court. So, there`s a world of difference between how he is going to be treated if he were only

one year older between how he was going to be and how he actually will be treated now.

BANFIELD: So, what we`re doing now is showing you the up close and personal pictures of all these kids. That`s the one, that`s the one that did the

pistol whipping with the light gray arms on his hoodie. Did the pistol whipping,

[20:50:00] rifled through the pockets, held the man at gunpoint. The others all part of it. There`s the other question, Joey.

JACKSON: Yes.

BANFIELD: If they didn`t do anything but they were on the lookout or they were lurking and they were stalking and they were letting people know, he`s

coming out, he`s coming out, what culpability -- I mean, I clearly know the one took the car.

JACKSON: Sure.

BANFIELD: I guess that`s easy.

JACKSON: Yes.

BANFIELD: What about the others?

JACKSON: So basic (INAUDIBLE) of law, if you are an aider, a betterer, a facilitator, meaning that you didn`t do the actual pointing of the gun, you

didn`t hit anybody, but you assisted, you are a lookout, you are down with the crime, you suffer as much problems as the person who actually committed

the crime.

BANFIELD: Like a conspiracy.

JACKSON: Here is the difference. Yes, but here is the difference. If you were merely present and didn`t engage in anything in furtherance of the

crime, then you`re good, but that what you have to establish.

BANFIELD: The guy with the orange on the bottom of the hoodie, I didn`t see him taking part in the stealing of the car or the hitting. The guy with the

long gray and the guy with in sweatshirt, I didn`t see him either. It`s the two with the dark gray hoodie getting into the car and the light gray arms.

These two really with the most egregious in this crime.

JACKSON: You know, It`s great stuff what you`re doing. I`ll tell you why. Because when this goes into a court of law, that`s exactly what`s going to

occur. If it goes into juvenile court, remember, there is no jury.

The judge is going to do what Ashleigh just did right here, which is to look and segue out what conduct each of them engaged in. And if they are

participants, you are treated differently than if you were just there and really weren`t into the crime, but just happened to be with some pretty bad

people who are.

BANFIELD: If they are all grownups, will they suffer equally, meaning because they are juveniles, do they get to cherry pick who did what and

some of them are treated differently than the others?

JACKSON: You know, it`s interesting. We have this debate about, you know, when should you be a juvenile and how old you should be and is your mind

fully developed. Juvenile court, the focus, right, is all about rehabilitation. You have redeeming qualities, you`re young, your brain is

not developed. So, yes, you`re treated differently.

BANFIELD: Can I ask you something?

JACKSON: There is no jury. There is judge.

BANFIELD: You have defended kids before.

JACKSON: Absolutely.

BANFIELD: Do you think someone like this is rehabilitatable?

JACKSON: Well, you know, you like to think the goodness in me and the humanitarian in me likes to think that anyone this young could be assisted,

could be helped, could be shown the right way. Quick, quick story. I had someone in my office when I was a prosecutor and I talked to him, just

talked to him, and said, what did you do?

He had been in a cab in New York City, done some really dumb things, tried to rob the cab. And he looked to me and he said, you know, no one ever

talked to me like that. It was a touching moment. So, hopefully you can get through to these kids. I don`t know what -- if any crime he went on to

commit, but it was interesting to at least talk to them.

BANFIELD: Then you need to go to Philly.

JACKSON: Stop.

BANFIELD: You need to go to Philly.

JACKSON: It`s crazy, yes.

BANFIELD: If you can have that effect on a kid, God damn it, I hate looking at that because my gut tells me he`s not rehabilitatable.

JACKSON: Right. I hear you. And that outrage that you have, Ashleigh, it`s shared by many.

BANFIELD: Sickens me. It sickens me.

JACKSON: Yes, of course. Of course, it does.

BANFIELD: Thank you for getting me off the ledge.

JACKSON: Yes.

BANFIELD: Thank you, Joey.

JACKSON: I hear you.

BANFIELD: A guy walked into a bank and pulled out a gun. What would you do? Would you do this? Because we`re going to tell you about the every day hero

who took this bad guy down.

[20:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: You go to a garage full of used equipment, sports equipment, you know, those soccer balls that your kids used to use and the rackets from

that time, you thought maybe they`d take up tennis. This week`s CNN hero has found a creative way to give forgotten sports equipment a brand-new

life. Meet Max Levitt.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAX LEVITT, CNN HERO: A lot of kids learn the importance of work ethic on the sports field.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Here we go. Good job. Do it again.

LEVITT: Sports were the most important part of my childhood. I thought it was a given for kids to play sports, but so many kids can`t afford to play

sports. There`s millions of dollars of sports equipment that is not being put to use, that is either been thrown away or wasting away in garages. I

thought why don`t we just create a food bank for sports equipment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: To see how Max`s equipment is really making a difference, you can go to cnnheroes.com and next week, get ready, we`re going to be revealing

the top 10 CNN heroes of 2017.

And tonight we have a story for you about an every day hero. His name is Robert Sacowski (ph). He kind of looks like this, you know, average nice

guy, tan slacks, buttoned down, going into the bank last Friday to take care of some business. And that`s exactly what he did when this guy,

wearing a mask and carrying a gun, walked in and demanded a cash from a teller.

Sacowski (ph) decided to spring into action and wrestled that fella right to the ground as two customers who were standing by the door ran for their

lives. He managed to actually get the gun. He got the gun away from the robber. He also got the bag of money away from the bad guy. Suspect broke

free and ran out of the bank, but he didn`t get very far. That`s always good news.

Sacowski (ph) was able to tell the police which way he went and then the police were able to make an arrest. So check that guy out. And put yourself

in those shoes. Is that something you would do? Or would you have run out the door like those other two guys? Anyway, big thanks to Robert Sacowski

(ph) tonight. How about that, Joey? Would you have done that?

JACKSON: Amazing. I would not have.

(LAUGHTER)

JACKSON: So, good job.

(LAUGHTER)

JACKSON: In just full disclosure.

(LAUGHTER)

JACKSON: Tough guy, huh?

BANFIELD: I know you, I know you. Thank you so much for being here tonight.

JACKSON: Always. Thank you, Ash. Thank you.

BANFIELD: I love having you. And thank you, everyone, as well for being here. I will be back Monday night at 8:00 for "Primetime Justice." In the

meantime, stay tuned because Chris Cuomo has an amazing show and it`s coming up right now. We`ll see you on Monday.

[21:00:00]

END