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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
House Intel Committee Releases Transcript Of Carter Page's Testimony; Gunman Died Of Self-Inflicted Gunshot To The Head; Investigators: Gunman Obsessed With Family Dispute; Air Force, Initial Information Shows Shooter's Military Conviction Wasn't Reported To Nat'l Database To Prevent Gun Sales; Family Of Shooting Victim Speaks Out; Man Who Shot Church Gunman Breaks His Silence; Man Who Helped Chase Down Gunman Speaks Out; Trump: Issue Is Mental Health, Not Gun Control; Questions Persist About What Sessions Knew. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired November 6, 2017 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:22] ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Two breaking stories, top of the hour tonight. New information in the wake of yesterday's tragic in South Texas. We begin, though, with yet another surprising development in the Russia investigation. This just broke. CNN's Manu Raju has it, joins us now with what he's learning. So, what's going on, Manu?
MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right. This is after Carter Page testified for nearly seven hours last week before the House Intelligence Committee.
We are now getting a first glimpse of what he said behind closed doors. Really rare look of what happened inside this committee.
Now one of the things that the committee did focus on was this trip that Carter Page, the former Trump foreign policy adviser, took to Russia last year in July 2016 during the heat of the campaign season.
Now one of the things that we are now learning is that Carter Page actually floated the idea of then-candidate Donald Trump taking that trip instead, actually saying this in an e-mail saying -- an e-mail to (INAUDIBLE) J.D. Gordon of the Trump campaign saying, "I got another idea, if Trump would like to take my place and raise the temperate a little bit, of course, I'd be more than happy to yield this honor to him."
Now, at the same time we're learning a little bit more about who he talked to about this trip. He did speak to -- according to his sworn testimony, Hope Hicks, who is now the Communications Director of the White House, Cory Lewandowski, the former campaign manager, and J.D. Gordon about this invitation.
Now, we reported last week that beforehand, he also told -- the now Attorney General, then senator, Jeff Sessions about this trip even as Jeff Sessions did not disclose that to the committee. Page, you know, suggested that he just mentioned Sessions in passing, but he also told Sam Clovis, who was then a national campaign chairman of the Trump campaign, and Clovis himself separately, according to Page's testimony, made him sign a nondisclosure agreement as part of this campaign.
Now, when he was on this trip, Anderson, one thing that we have now learned is that Page many met with a deputy prime minister of Russia, one of the senior officials in the Kremlin. And this is significant because Page has -- for long publicly said very clearly that he did not meet with anybody on this trip who is tied to the Kremlin. So this is the speech he was nearly giving in Moscow unrelated to the campaign. But he did meet with this deputy prime minister which he downplays just an insignificant meeting that he discussed in private.
But at the same time, Anderson, he said this trip to Moscow was not campaign related, but he did e-mailed the campaign afterwards saying pretty clearly that he'd be willing to brief them on it and also ask the campaign ahead of time, you know, was there anything they suggested him to say during his speech to help with the message of the Trump campaign, so that's raising some questions from lawmakers after that testimony, Anderson.
COOPER: Manu, talk a little bit about how Carter Page's story has changed over time about this trip he took to Moscow. Because -- I mean, when I talk -- I interviewed him, you know, he said he was just meeting with professors and that's really what it was about, had nothing to do with the campaign. But if he's meeting -- do you know how long this meeting with this Russian official was? Because -- the other thing is, he kept sort of, in every interview I've seen him do, he sort of cribbled (ph) about what a meeting actually is, as just saying hello to somebody, is that a meeting? Or, you know, was this a sitdown? Do we know more details?
RAJU: You know, he describes it in his testimony is -- an innocuous interaction, something that would only just sort of happened almost in passing. He really does not get into detail, but questions were really raised because in this testimony he initially said he didn't meet with any government officials, but then he was presented with an e-mail that he wrote on July 8th to senior Trump officials talking about some incredible insights and outreach he received from a few Russian legislators and senior members of the presidential administration here, and that raised some questions from lawmakers that, why didn't you just say you didn't meet with any Russian officials, and Page says that he did. He's referring to the deputy prime minister of the Russian federation.
So again, he's downplaying those meetings and, of course, he blatantly denies strenuously that he did anything wrong, that he was not involved in any collusion whatsoever, and he really rails against the Obama administration for apparently under the Justice Department getting a surveillance warrant to listen in on his communications last year. But nevertheless, that question about that meeting that he had raising some questions as well as his efforts to try to brief the Trump campaign and get direction from the Trump campaign about what to say when he went to Russia, Anderson. [21:05:13] COOPER: Fascinating detail Manu Raju. I know Manu is going to go through all these documents. We're going to check back with you to see what else you find.
Now to Texas and everything we are learning about the deadliest church shooting in American history, comes just five weeks after nation's worse mass shooting (INAUDIBLE) in Las Vegas. This (ph) morning as you know, a man walked into First Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs, Texas, murdered 26 people, many of them children. Earlier tonight, authorities give a press conference that (INAUDIBLE) set a lot about the crime and killer. We should underscore we're not mentioning his name or do authorities tonight. CNN' Brian Todd is on the scene joins us now. So, what are you learning about the shooter?
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, some new information that we've been able to put together tonight from authorities and others, just paint a portrait of this killer as someone who is a young man with a history of domestic violence, a history of anger toward his relatives and of other issues. I mean, he's really -- just had a litany of things compiled against him over the years.
What we were told tonight by authorities was -- that there was clearly a conflict between the two families, meaning his family and his in- laws, specifically between him and his mother-in-law. Officials telling us today that he had developed anger toward his mother-in-law, that he had issued threats towards the mother-in-law, that he sent threatening texts to her.
One law enforcement source telling us that the mother-in-law received a text the morning of the Sunday shooting, but the nature of that exact text has not been revealed yet.
We were told by authorities that the in-laws did attend the First Baptist Church on occasion. They were not there at the time of the shooting. But they did attend the church sometimes. They got there after the shooting. We're also told that his wife sometimes attended church there.
In addition, Anderson, he has a history of domestic violence that we've been reporting on, the assault and battery charge while he was with the Air Force that led to a discharge for bad conduct. But, also we learned today of a charge of animal cruelty when he lived in Colorado in the Colorado Springs area, three years ago.
In August of 2014, a neighbor a witness called and reported that he was abusing a dog, a husky that he had, that he was beating around the head and neck area and dragging the husky. Now the shooter denied the charge at the time but he did received a summons to appear in court but he never faced a jail time for those charges back in Colorado three years ago, Anderson.
So, again, you know, the portrait you're getting is of a man with anger issues, with some resentment towards his in-laws and not a man who was certainly a non verse to issuing threats, even to his own mother-in-law.
COOPER: And there were two people rushed in to engage the shooter. How that played out?
TODD: That's right. Two good Samaritans came upon the scene. That's right. As he was emerging from the church, Anderson, we're told that two Samaritans came up and confronted him. One specifically, had an assault rifle similar to the one that the shooter was using. They exchanged gunfire. And that man described hiding behind the car and exchanging gunfire with the shooter. Then the shooter took off in his own vehicle. And another man pulled up in a truck and the man who engaged the shooter flagged him down, got in the truck, said we need to out to this guy, and the other guy said, let's go. That other gentleman's name is Johnnie Langendorff. He spoke to CNN earlier and described the scene. They chased after him for 10 to 12 minutes. The shooter then drove his car into a ditch. They called for him to get out of his car, he did not do that. That's the point where authorities believe that he took his own life with the self inflicted gunshot wound to the head. But he'd already suffered wounds according to officials from that Samaritan who engage and wounds to the torso and to the leg, Anderson. So, even at that point he was disabled.
COOPER: Yes, just heroic efforts by both of them. Brian thanks very much.
More now on the killer's violent past. His court martial conviction and there's question whether information about that conviction found its way onto a database that might have prevented this individual from obtaining firearms. Our Pentagon reporter Ryan Browne joins us now with that.
So, tell us what he was accused of doing and convicted of doing in this court martial.
RYAN BROWNE, CNN PENTAGON REPORTER: Well, Anderson, we have now seen the documents pertaining to his conviction in this court martial in 2012 where he was brought up with charges, assault charges against his then-wife and their stepson. And he was accused of assaulting their stepson so violently that the force used in that assault could have resulted in death or grievous bodily harm.
Now, there were some additional charges that were none dropped that he did not plead guilty to, involved aiming loaded firearm at his-then wife. There were two incidents of that and other firearm related offenses that he had been charged with, those were dropped. But he was convicted of the two assault charges against his-then wife and their stepson. And he was sentenced to 12 months in a military prison in California.
After he got out he was discharged under -- what's called a bad conduct discharge and was separated from the Air Force.
But again, those very serious assault charges that domestic violence charges he was convicted.
[21:10:05] COOPER: And because he was convicted on those domestic violence he should have been prohibited from buying or possessing a firearm, right? BROWNE: That's absolutely correct. And in fact, the military, in any domestic violence case, is supposed to refer that information to the national database that would prevent anyone whose been convicted of domestic violence and civilian or military court from ever purchasing a firearm.
Now the Air Force today acknowledging that the -- it doesn't appear that the Office of Special Investigation at Holloman Air Base put that entry point into that database raising questions as to has this ever happen before, the Air Force is launching review to see exactly how he was, how his name was not put into this database, and how he was able to continue to purchase firearms.
The Department of Defense launching their own review into this issue, looking at previous cases to see exactly what went wrong here and how someone convicted of domestic violence was allowed to purchase multiple firearms. Anderson.
COOPER: Yes. Ryan Browne, appreciate that, on the details of the court-martial, even what the Air Force did or did not do. There's the ongoing story that won't be answered by investigations or hearings or new procedures that reality is their incredible sense of loss.
Haley Krueger was just 16 years old, she love kids, wanted to be a neonatal ICU nurse so she could care for babies born prematurely. Earlier tonight I spoke with her mom Charlene and her sister Camey.
COOPER: Charlene, tell me about Haley, what kind of a daughter was she?
CHARLENE MARIE UHL, MOTHER OF CHURCH SHOOTING VICTIM: She was amazing. She was very vibrant. She had a great future ahead of her, she had big plans and it was all cut short.
COOPER: She wanted to be a nurse?
CHARLENE UHL: She wanted to be a nurse to an NICU because she loves to work with babies.
COOPER: Was that something she always wanted to do?
CHARLENE UHL: Yes. And she couldn't wait to graduate high school so that she could start her future.
COOPER: Camey, how would you describe Haley, what kind of sister was she?
CAMEY UHL, SISTER OF CHURCH SHOOTING VICTIM: She was kind of annoying. She was really sweet. Whenever you needed something, she was always ready to jump up and do it for me.
COOPER: Charlene, what else do you want people to know about Haley?
CHARLENE UHL: She was amazing and we're going to miss her. COOPER: How do you deal with something like this?
CHARLENE UHL: I don't know. We're trying to figure it out. Like piece of me is gone. We'll never be the same.
COOPER: Camey is there anything else you want people to know about your sister?
CAMEY UHL: Not really, just that she was really sweet and she was the best sister anyone could ask for.
COOPER: A GoFundMe page has been setup for the family, the web address is up there on the screen, www.gofundme.com/haley- kruegertexas-church-tragedy. The goal of $15,000 to help with expenses.
More now on the man who confronted the killer, changed gunfire with him and has been credited with preventing further bloodshed, Stephen Willeford himself on confronted the gunman outside the church and hit him. He spoke early with our affiliate 40/29 News on Northwest Arkansas.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHEN WILLEFORD, CONFRONTED TEXAS SHOOTER: -- is the people at that church, they're friends of mine. They're family. And every time I heard a shot, I knew that probably represented a life. I was scared to death. I was. I was scared for me and I was scared for everyone of them. I was scared for my own family that just live less than a block away. I'm no hero. I am not. I thank my God, my Lord protected me and gave me the skills to do what needed to be done. And I just wish I could have gotten there faster, but I didn't know, I didn't know what was happening.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Extraordinary what he did. Stephen Willeford had traded gunfire with the killer and as he fled wanted to continue the chase, had no vehicle, which is where Johnnie Langendorff came in along with his truck. I spoke with him and his girlfriend Summer Caddel earlier tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
COOPER: Johnnie, first of all, I mean obviously what you've done is just extraordinary. Walk me through if you can, what happened? I know you're pulling out of the gas station when you saw the shooter.
JOHNNIE LANGENDORFF, CHASED TEXAS CHURCH SHOOTING SUSPECT: Yes, sir. Actually, I had pulled out of the gas station and taken the side street that led to the residential street to the intersection where the church is. And before I had the chance to turn, that's whenever I saw the shooting start and that's when I stopped to see what's going on. [21:15:12] COOPER: And what did you see, the man who was firing his weapon at the shooter. He came up to your truck, had you seen him before shooting at the shooter?
LANGENDORFF: No. I actually -- I had seen the shooter coming from about where the cars were parked at the church attendees vehicles were. And on the opposite side of the road, I have seen Mr. Willeford coming and shooting back with his rifle.
COOPER: So, he came up to your vehicle and explained what have had happened and what did you say?
LANGENDORFF: He very briefly, yes, he very briefly explained what happened and he got in and he said, he just said follow him, follow him, and I said let's go. And -- and we pursue.
COOPER: You didn't have any hesitation?
LANGENDORFF: No, sir.
COOPER: So how long did you chase the shooter for?
LANGENDORFF: It was anywhere from, like 10 to 13 minutes because it was around 11 to 13 miles, so it was roughly a mile a minute. We were in heavy pursuit. Every time I look down at the speedometer, it was 90 or 95. So it was -- it was pretty fast.
COOPER: And were you, I mean was there a lot of cars on the road -- I mean, were you weaving in and out of cars?
LANGENDORFF: It was normal traffic for a small town country road basically. There was traffic but there was a bit of weaving, yes, sir.
COOPER: So finally, when you find the vehicle again, how did it all come to an end?
LANGENDORFF: We had find -- we had gained on the vehicle enough and we got to keep up with him for a while until finally he started to slow down and we thought he is going to come stop but when he slowed down, he just took out a street sign and from there he sped up again and lost control of his vehicle hitting the guardrail and then from there it went into the bar ditch.
COOPER: And then what?
LANGENDORFF: And then once he hit the bar ditch I got close enough that I felt safe, but we could still be in range to see him but still be safe if he came out wielding a pistol or anything. And the second I stopped, Mr. Willeford jumped out, mounted his rifle on my head, aimed it at the vehicle and was telling the guy to get out, get out. And there was no movement in the vehicle after that. The man never got out. There was never any gunfire exchanged and about the same time we stopped and more traffic was coming, and so I have to go from the safety of the vehicle to stop traffic just in case there was going to be any cross fire. COOPER: So you were exposed?
LANGENDORFF: Briefly, yes, sir.
COOPER: How soon did the police get there?
LANGENDORFF: They responded very quickly, especially coming from another county. They were there within five to seven minutes.
COOPER: Because I assume a lot of officers had to respond to the church. I assumed -- did you call 911 or either of you call 911 while you were driving?
LANGENDORFF: Yes. I called a dispatch once we crossed the intersection over 87 from the church to let them know that we were northbound 539 in pursuit of the shooter's vehicle. And I just -- I kept them updated on where we were and where he was and, because from my brief knowledge, you know, it seemed that, you know, cops were all going to be called to the church and not, you know, and I didn't assume that anybody had seen where the driver went.
COOPER: Johnnie, knowing what you know now, would you do the same thing over again?
LANGENDORFF: I would do it 100 times over, sir.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
COOPER: When we come back, President Trump speaks out about the shooting in terms only of mental health, not guns. Reaction from Minnesota Senator Al Franken, next.
[21:21:15] COOPER: Once again, President Trump has had to respond to the news of a mass shooting in America that claimed dozens of innocent lives. Just over a month ago, of course, he had to do the same after the deadliest mass shooting modern American history in Las Vegas. Both times he made a similar point about gun control and mental health. Here's what he said today from Japan on his foreign trip.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think that mental health is your problem here, as we say. A very based on preliminary reports, very deranged individual, a lot of problems over a long period of time. We have a lot of mental health problems in our country as do other countries, but this isn't a guns situation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: I spoke about that with Democratic Senator Al Franken just before air. Here's our conversation.
COOPER: When you have heard the president say this is a mental health situation, it's not a gun situation, what do you think?
SEN. AL FRANKEN, (D), JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: You know, one of the first things that he did as president was signed a bill that got rid of a provision that made it harder for people with mental illness to get guns. This is a gun issue and --
COOPER: Do you think anything will actually change?
FRANKEN: Well, I hope so. You know, obviously, you know, our thoughts and our prayers go out to folks in Texas. But as President Obama said, thoughts and prayers aren't enough and people have to continue to make their voices heard. I thought after Sandy Hook, we could get close a loopholes on background checks. I thought now with --
COOPER: If anything would allow that to happen, Sandy Hook would?
FRANKEN: I thought Sandy Hook because you had six year olds, 26 year olds, but now we've seen this just as rash, Las Vegas, now this. I was a co-sponsor of Dianne Feinstein's assault weapons ban. I'm going to co-sponsor it again. But, yes, I -- it's frustrating.
COOPER: What does it take to actually have something change? I mean, is it a question of the NRA lobbying money? Is it just a question of, you know, the police of the gun culture in America?
FRANKEN: I would ask my colleagues to just, you know, take a moment to think about this and think about closing loopholes. Then that's not going to stop everyone of these but if it stops one or makes one less bad, or stops two, I mean, that's the whole world to all these, think about these people.
COOPER: The Air Force said they are conducting review of whether or not this person's court-martial and the charges that he was convicted of would send him to a military prison for a year were actually sent to a federal database which would have prevented him because he had done domestic violence.
FRANKEN: A domestic violence, yes.
COOPER: So they are conducting review. Initial indication seems like maybe that information wasn't sent over. Does that change this in anyway for you?
FRANKEN: Well --
COOPER: If in exist -- had an existing law been followed or the existing procedure followed, this person would not have been able to get a gun.
FRANKEN: Yes. I mean, the Air Force needs to investigate this and find out if they're not doing this in every case and then they do. If someone has committed domestic violence they should not be able to purchase a gun.
COOPER: I want to ask you about what's going on with the Judiciary Committee, how important is it for him to come back? I know you sent a letter with questions you want answer.
[21:25:02] FRANKEN: Yes, well, he seems to have a real problem answering truthfully when asked about his meetings, but rather not even ask, he volunteered in that -- with any Russians during the campaign. It turned out he met three times --
COOPER: Do you think he remember he did it, and was it honest or forgot?
FRANKEN: You know, he said when "The Washington Post" came out with the story saying he met with Kislyak, he -- one of his explanations -- his stories keep changing. One of his explanations was, well, you know, in hindsight I should have, you know, been more patient and said, yes, I did meet with them. So, he obviously did remember it.
And then, he actually testified back last month and said in that hearing that he didn't think that any surrogate from the Trump campaign had met with any Russians. And so, I asked him, what about General Flynn? What about Jared Kushner? What about Paul Manafort? What about Donald Trump Jr.? I mean, you know, he --
COOPER: And now we know about George Papadopoulos.
FRANKEN: And now George Papadopoulos who at a meeting chaired by Jeff Sessions, Papadopoulos said, "I've been meeting with the Russians, and I think I can arrange a meeting between Trump and Putin." And Jeff Sessions has said, "No, don't do that, and don't anyone talk about this again." That sounds like something you'd remember, doesn't it?
And this is important. This is a foreign power interfering in our elections. That goes at the very core of who we are as a country, as a democracy. And if he can't -- he needs to be straight with us.
COOPER: Senator Franken, appreciate your time. Thank you.
FRANKEN: Thank you Anderson. So, good to be with you.
COOPER: Up next, our political panel ways in on the Texas shooting and what if anything, yet another mass shooting does to gun debate in this country. We'll be right back.
[21:30:08] COOPER: Well, unfortunately, we have been here before many times, another mass shooting in America, the same questions over and over again. What needs to happen and what if anything will change?
Joining me now, David Gregory, Jason Miller, Gloria Borger, Kenneth Cuccinelli and Jen Psaki.
David, I mean, do you see a difference in how the reaction is from the president when, you know, the terror attack in New York versus a shooting like this?
DAVID GREGORY, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I do. I tend to think that the reaction by this president and others in response to terrorism seems to be, let's do everything we can regardless of what may work and what may not. Let just be so hypervigilant. They will do anything.
And there seems to be a focus certainly on the part of a lot of Republicans including this president to say with regard to the gun debate, let's not do things that don't work. And that we know we're not really the core of the problem.
You know, in this particular reaction, I do think President Trump was onto something. Now, I do think this is an issue of guns. But I think the issue of this killer's mental state is relevant and may get us into a conversation about the need to focus on what ways we can stop people with mental difficulties from getting access to guns.
And perhaps the state can leave the way. I recall Colorado going down this road very effectively some years ago within the past five years or so where they had made some inroads on piercing some of the privacy restrictions to get law enforcement more access, maybe that's something that can start a conversation now.
KENNETH CUCCINELLI, FRMR. VIRGINIA ATTORNEY GENERAL: Yes, after Virginia Tech we recognized in Virginia that there are -- this is a guy who had interacted with the mental health system and was not caught in the proper process. Their process fixes we've already talked about, did the -- that kind of discharge actually get into a record system accessible to Texas, and so forth. Those are things that can and should be fixed so we can effectively enforce the laws we have on the books.
But one of the issues, and you just touched on it David in the mental health area, an area I dealt with for 12 years as a lawyer, is the privacy issues. And HIPAA and part of it is simply perceived challenges of HIPAA. The whole medical profession is so paranoid about getting tagged on HIPAA violation that they don't share anything ever. And the states have a lot of authority with in the federal arrangement for HIPAA to carve out opportunities to share information like that.
GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: What if you are engaged in domestic violence and the link between domestic violence and not being able to get a gun? I mean, wouldn't that seem to be sort of a basic thing?
CUCCINELLI: Yes. But it would --
CUCCINELLI: -- Air Force done --
BORGER: Well, if the Air Force had done its job, but you know, we are ought to be able to do that. I go back to Sandy Hook, and you couldn't get the loopholes on the background checks closed. You couldn't get an assault weapons ban. And, by the way, there were Democrats who voted against an assault weapons ban, and closing the loopholes, et cetera. So, it was kind of bipartisan. I mean, at this point if Congress continues down that road and we continue with these shootings, no matter whether you say, yes, in this particular case, it wasn't the rule, it couldn't have been avoided, et cetera. At some point the first responders, I think, have to come out and say --
COOPER: Look, Jen, to Ken's argument about, you know,
JEN PSAKI, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Sure.
COOPER: -- follow existing laws.
PSAKI: But there have been provisions I've been put in place that we put in place under the Obama administration, and that President Trump actually turned back. And one of them is related to mental illness. And that was one of the recommendations after Newtown, which was that if you were getting a check from the social security administration and you're unfit to handle that, if you're mental impairments prevent you from being able to do that, you shouldn't be able to buy a gun. Now, that's common sense and not something President Trump rolled back in February.
So, when he says today we should address mental health, absolutely we should. And David is right, there's a lot that should be done, more money for mental health, more parity, but at the same time there are common steps we can take.
CUCCINELLI: -- we accepting, if you get money from the government you have to -- you lose this right without a hearing on the subject. It's amazing how blaze (ph) you are about that and the president was about that. And I'm someone who wants to utilize every tool out there with the mental health net. But at the same time, you still have to abide by due process and respect Americans right.
PSAKI: But I think, Ken, if you have undertaken domestic violence, if you are a terrorist --
CUCCINELLI: Right. You had to do a process.
PSAKI: If you are somebody who shouldn't be qualified and isn't in a position to have a gun, should you have a gun? That is pretty common sense.
[21:35:03] CUCCINELLI: Agreed.
JASON MILLER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: "The New York Times" and the upshot blog did an article a couple weeks back where they talked -- they interviewed both people and experts about what people really want to see. And what stood out more than anything was it wasn't gun restrictions. And to say, number of rounds in a magazine or the types of guns. What is it that people are most concerned about are making sure that the criminals and the crazies don't have access to guns. And in this case it's just absolutely unconscionable that in this day and age someone convicted of domestic violence and spent a year in the brig could somehow through whether it's an administrative error or things didn't sink up directly could get their hands on a weapon like this. I mean, fortunately, thank goodness, I mean, this is a terrible tragedy, but someone was there to stop this man from going and committing additional murders.
And so, I think there's frequently many on the left will go to a knee jerk, we need to get rid of all guns and this mainly goes into a big gun control debate. But, I think, the most important thing here is someone is a criminal or there -- they have serious mental issues, they have a history like this, we cannot allow them to have guns.
COOPER: We need to take a quick. When we come back we're going to have more on what Carter Page told Congressional investigators about Russia.
New reporting tonight, our Manu Raju looked over more of the transcripts that just released from Page's testimony, details on that on a moment.
COOPER: As we reported at the top of the broadcast, we now have the details of former Trump campaign adviser Carter Page's House Intelligence Committee testimony in the Russia probe. It appears somewhat different from the account he's been giving publicly up until now. Or the various accounts you think (INAUDIBLE) as Manu Raju has been looking at the transcript joins us now. What else have you learned?
RAJU: Yes, that's right, Anderson. Well, we're learning a lot more about this trip that Carter Page took to Moscow in July of 2016. And what he has told investigators in over roughly seven hour testimony last week.
Now, he has long maintained that this trip was something that he just took as a private citizen. It was unrelated to the campaign. But we are learning about the number of officials in the Trump campaign who were well aware of exactly what his plan to go overseas and speak at a conference in Moscow and some interactions, Anderson, that he had with at least one senior Russian official at that time.
[21:39:55] Now, he acknowledges in this testimony that he did speak to several key members of the Trump campaign. He said he told then, Senator Jeff Sessions about it, now the attorney general, as well as, Sam Clovis, the national co-chairman of the campaign. But also Corry Lewandowski the campaign manager, who said its fine for him to go as long it is not campaign related. And as well as Hope Hicks, who is now Communications Director, and a former Foreign Policy Adviser J.D. Gordon.
Now, also, in addition to that, Page reached out to the campaign and said, I can say -- make my remarks Taylor made essentially based on if you guys have suggestions on what I should say. And then afterwards, he sent an e-mail two senior official saying this, "I'll send you a readout," you guys" a readout soon regarding some incredible insights and outreach I received from a few Russian legislators and senior members of the Presidential administration here." Now he is only, Anderson acknowledged meeting with Arkady Dvorkovich who is the Russian Deputy Prime Minister at that time, but suggestion here that he may have had more contact with more government officials, and we just saw another nugget on this transcript of him acknowledging meeting with a Russian energy official from one of the major Russian energy giants, this despite his denial of a key assertion in that dossier listing allegations of Trump campaign collusion and coordination with Russians, that dossier did show some meeting with a Russian official and energy official. He did acknowledged meeting with at least one Russian energy official at the time, but he downplays all these interactions saying they're mostly in passing and not big serious and, certainly, no collusion, he insisted throughout his testimony, Anderson.
COOPER: It does sounds though at odds with what he was pitching back to the campaign that he had and -- there was incredible outreach and an incredible sort of the insight that he learned. That doesn't sound like just a passing in the, you know, in the hallway kind of interaction.
RAJU: Yes, that's right. And that's -- we leave in the Clinton (ph) concerns and questions. There are a lot of people have race (ph) going in, whether or not he has been forthright in his public statements and is differing in his private testimony. But interestingly, Anderson, this invitation for him to go to Russia actually came after he joined the Trump campaign, much like George Papadopoulos, invitation for him to go interact with some of these Russians came after he joined the Trump campaign. So we'll see how other members and other people think if that's significant or not.
COOPER: All right.
RAJU: Digest this, Anderson.
COOPER: Manu Raju, a lot to go through, thanks very much. I want to bring back in the panel. I mean, Gloria, yet again, Carter Page. I mean, it sort of --
BORGER: Surprises us.
COOPER: Because I mean, I interviewed him, I think once or maybe twice --
COOPER: -- and it all blends together. But, I mean, all of the stuff he says, it does seem different than certainly what he is saying now under oath.
BORGER: Right. He has told us -- he told you that he did this on his own, that he didn't interact with high-level people in Russia, and that he's -- whatever meetings he had were of absolutely no consequence, and that he wasn't involved at any high level when they campaigned.
COOPER: It's also interesting, because he would never previously say who it was within the campaign, who gave him permission to go.
COOPER: Who he was in communication with, but it seems like from that, he wasn't communicate with a lot of more people in the campaign than I would have guessed based on the whole role he supposedly --
BORGER: Well, it's a little like George Papadopoulos, actually. It seems to me that they're kind of the same there. And what was stunning about this stuff we learned tonight is the e-mail that Manu just read which was, "I'll you guys a readout from my incredible insights and outreach I received from Russian legislators," that was an e-mail that he sent to his campaign supervisors, but he did not give it to the committee even though he was under subpoena to do so. They found it and they presented him with it and he had never given it to them. So he might be in some legal trouble there.
MILLER: So, I mean, Anderson, I have to kind of laugh and you forgot to mention even when you met him at the gym, apparently.
COOPER: He brought that up and I had no memory of it.
MILLER: Right. Look, if you go and send an e-mail to --
MILLER: -- you send an e-mail to half dozen or dozen people, that doesn't mean that you're in regular communication with these people, it means you happened to -- have an e-mail address and put it in the "to" line.
Look, if I've been involve with the campaign at that point, I would said, you know, what Carter, once you go ahead and go to Russia and don't come back. I mean, this guy is a step above a reality show contestant. We're going to see him in the next season of the "Real World of Grown-up goody" (ph). I mean, he had no real day-to-day involvement with the campaign. He was trying to demonstrate value. And I'm sure to the extent that, you know, even read his e-mail, I'm sure like, OK, fine, this guy, you know, he wants to go talk with some academics or give a speech.
MILLER: Fine. This is well before there's talking --
COOPER: I mean, according to himself, and there's no evidence that he's never actually even met --
MILLER: He has never -- he has never even met the president.
COOPER: All right.
MILLER: And this is --
COOPER: Although he claimed for a long time in the Russian media that he had been in meetings with the president and then he said he was using the Russian term with the word meetings which mean rallies.
[21:45:03] MILLER: He has -- I mean, there's --
COOPER: -- rally like I think it was in like, rebuke or something and so he claimed that was a meeting.
CUCCINELLI: It's a big meeting.
GREGORY: -- the Kato Kaelin and this is not big, because I think maybe unfair to Kato Kaelin from the --
BORGER: But he told the committee that he learned this stuff from Russian T.V. that makes us really --
GREGORY: You know, it's -- I think what's hard is -- it's hard to really understand how all these pieces of the puzzle fit together, if they do fit together, and how you separate that out from some attempt it self-aggrandizement, I mean, on the part of juniors advisors.
And I guess the other piece to if there's outreach at this level of the Russian government, why are they doing it at that low level when they certainly would have had ties to Paul Manafort with whom the Kremlin had done business in Ukraine. And Michael Flynn who may be in more legal jeopardy comes along.
So they had higher-level contacts if they wanted that kind of entree (ph).
CUCCINELLI: Yes, that's one of the things that I said when the indictment came out is. This is the guy, Paul Manafort, who has all these preexisting networks that he can tap into. If there was going to be determined collusion, that's where you would expect to see it. Could they file more charges later? In theory, yes, but that would be somewhat unusual in a situation like this, except for the obtaining of leverage.
But I would say, Page looks a lot like Papadopoulos in one regard, and that is that they both look like they've got this really grand notion in their own head, and they're pursuing it and they're talking to various people in the campaign, kind of a one-way conversation. You get Corey Lewandowski, sure, go take your trip. Just make sure it isn't associated with the campaign. And, you know, they're suffering from the chaos, nature of the campaign here. And they're continuing to find another --
PSAKI: I don't think there's been a long explanation by Trump defenders saying it was chaotic, we don't even know any of these people, we've never heard of them. That is something that comes up frequently. I'm not saying that was the totality of your explanation.
But in this case we've seen a theme that's consistent. Nobody could remember any meetings they ever had, and now, all of the sudden when people are under oath, they remember and they remember they had meetings, e-mails emerged. There's a lot we know now that we didn't know six months ago. In all likelihood, Papadopoulos and our friend today are a bit players and who will play them in the movie, maybe they'll have small roles, I don't know.
The question is what are the higher-level people? What did they know? What were their meetings? There are still more we don't know about that. It's possible that some of them will have information that --
BORGER: And what were they doing, and maybe you can answer this Jason. What were they doing on any kind of advisory board on foreign policy to Donald Trump? I mean, what was Papadopoulos doing sitting at that table at Donald Trump and he was sort of a low-bit and what -- all want to be involved with Russia. As with the team, why did they all want to have meetings with Russia, all of them?
PSAKI: Right. I mean, they're -- is they're a bunch of wannabes --
COOPER: But where they may -- going back to that time of the campaign, they would visually name when Donald Trump as a candidate needed --
MILLER: -- has Hillary from the convention down the home stretch of the campaign, none of this people were anywhere or --
BORGER: -- no foreign policy adviser like --
COOPER: Remember, there was a guys who put out a statements saying like, you know --
BORGER: We won't do it.
COOPER: We won't do it --
COOPER: -- and then, so then they needed names and they came up with --
MILLER: I think early on, again, back during the primaries they were looking for people and some people clearly didn't have the qualifications and shouldn't be on the list. I mean, we didn't go like this George Papadopoulos character, the guys was like, 29. What kind of foreign policy experience did he have at that point? Later on the campaign, he got some real generals and some real military people who came on board and helped out. They got a lot more professional later on.
COOPER: I'll thank you everybody.
An update on the wounded from Texas also the healing in South Texas tonight.
[21:51:19] COOPER: The 14 people are still hospitalized after a mass shooting that killed 26 people in Sutherland Springs, Texas.
Ed Lavandera joins us now from University Hospital in San Antonio with the latest on the patients who are being treated. So what have you learned about them?
ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, it is still a great deal of trouble and concern for the vast majority of the people who were brought to hospitals in the moments after that rampage at the church in Sutherland Springs, East of San Antonio. This is one of the two main hospitals here in the city that has accepted the majority of the gunshot victims.
There are still about 14 people in all that are hospitalized tonight. Ten of those people in critical condition and at this particular hospital, University Hospital, here in San Antonio, there are two children and one adult still in critical condition. And we're told by medical officials here in San Antonio that the majority of these people in critical condition suffered gunshot wounds to their lower extremities and in their abdomen, so these are serious wounds that they're dealing with. A number of them have gone through secondary operations here throughout the day in surgeries. So a great deal of concern for many of them who are still fighting for their lives tonight. Anderson.
COOPER: And in terms of those who are in other hospitals in the area, do we know about them?
LAVANDERA: We haven't -- this is the hospital that has given us the most specific information on what those conditions are. There are six patients here in all. There are another eight patients at Brook Army Medical Center and 10 of those people, as I mentioned, are between both hospitals are in critical condition. And, you know, we're well over 30 hours past this attack, so, you know, the concern for those particular people is still of paramount concern for those medical doctors treating those gunshot victims tonight.
COOPER: Yes. And Ed, I know, I mean, you spend time earlier in Sutherland Springs, you spoke to a number of people there. How -- I mean, how is the town coping with this? LAVANDERA: You know, what's stunning is four percent of that town's population was killed in this rampage. Really stunning, you know, a lot of times we've seen these mass shootings that take place in large cities. So when you walk around, it is clear, evidently clear everywhere you go that everyone has a very dramatic and personal connection to what unfolded inside that church. That is rare in a lot of cases, and it's really something that stands out as you talk to the people who are trying to cope with all of this as best they can.
COOPER: Yes. And it's so sad. Ed, appreciate you being there.
Coming up, we remember the victims of the Texas church shooting. What we know about the lives cut too short.
[21:56:36] COOPER: On nights like these on this broadcast, we try to keep the focus where it belongs, on the victims, not just on how the people died, but how they lived their lives. And here we are again remembering 26 peoples whose lives were cut short by a mass shooting. A man with the gun and many cases multiple guns.
Randi Kaye reports on the victims in Texas whose identities have been confirmed.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In an instant, about four percent of the residents of Sutherland Springs, Texas were taken. The youngest victim about a year and a half old, the oldest killed, 77.
Among the dead, Annabelle Pomeroy, the 14-year-old was the daughter of the church's pastor, who often spoke about her at church. One, sharing this story about them riding his motorcycle together.
FRANK POMEROY, FATHER OF CHURCH SHOOTING VICTIM: Annabelle has been wanting to ride with me and go with me here and there. And the bike was doing 34 degrees this morning and she was a trooper. She did not complain. She just sat back there behind me and rode.
KAYE: The pastor and his wife were out of town on Sunday, but Annabelle went to church anyway without them.
SHERRI POMEROY, MOTHER OF CHURCH SHOOTING VICTIM: One thing that gives me a sliver of encouragement is the fact that Belle was surrounded yesterday by her church family that she loved fiercely.
KAYE: At just 16, Haley Krueger had big plans for her life before it was cut short. Her mother told CNN, Haley was a vibrant 16-year-old that loved life, adding she was also looking forward to her future as a nurse in NICU. She love babies and always wanted to help.
CHARLENE MARIE UHL, MOTHER OF CHURCH SHOOTING VICTIM: She was amazing and we're going to miss her.
KAYE: The church's visiting pastor, Bryan Holcombe, was also killed. So was his wife Karla Holcombe. In all, they lost eight members of their family. Three generations wiped out that terrible morning.
The Holcombe's lived on a nearby farm in Floresville, Texas with several of their children. Their son Danny died Sunday and so with his daughter Noah. She was the youngest victim at just 17 months old.
The couple's son John was also shot and remains in the hospital. His wife Crystal Holcombe was killed. She was two months pregnant. Three of her five children were also killed. The other two were shot and are at the hospital with John, their stepfather.
Also among the victims, Tara McNulty, a close family friend of the Holcombe's and the gunman's own grand mother-in-law, Lula White. She was his wife's grandmother and friends say she volunteered frequently at the church. Her niece Amy Backus wrote thin on her Facebook page shortly after White death, "I have no doubt where she is right now. She is in heaven, laying her crowns and jewels at the feet of Jesus and celebrating. I love and will miss you."
So many lives taken by a man who likely knew most everyone in the church community where he opened fire. Randi Kaye, CNN, New York.
COOPER: And a few more names have just been confirmed. Two couples who were killed in the attack, they're Robert and Shani Corrigan, the couple originally from Michigan. And Richard and Theresa Rodriguez, which their daughter says her dad and stepmother were married for 11 years and were active in the church.
Our coverage continues now with Don Lemon in "CNN Tonight."
[22:00:08] DON LEMON, "CNN TONIGHT" HOST: This is "CNN Tonight." I'm Don Lemon.
Can I -- please pay attention, if you're doing something or whatever, I really want your attention this evening.